Tribal Councils in Sartar

[Jex]

 This topic came up in a different thread, but it had strayed significantly from the topic of that thread so I figured I should move it here to avoid cluttering that thread with unrelated matters.  Anyway, I had a question about tribal councils and @Jeff very helpfully replied describing the typical makeup of a council:

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

Thirteen members usually make up a tribal council—the king and two rings of six officials each. No person can hold two positions at once. As with most Orlanthi customs, variants are common but usually minor. Orlanth Rex leads the entire council. The other positions are divided into two parts. 

The first part of the Orlanth ring and is comprised of the Orlanth Rex and six deities, who are part of or associated with the Orlanth cult: 

1.      Orlanth Rex, the King of the Gods

2.      North Wind, Cold, Dark, and Deadly (Humakt)

3.      Mountain Wind, Adventurous and Bold (Orlanth Adventurous)

4.      Beast Wind, Untamed and Slayer of Chaos (Storm Bull)

5.      Earth Wind, Warm and Fertile from the South (Ernalda)

6.      Fifth Wind, Steady and Calm (Kolat)

7.      Storm Wind, Brave and Cloudy Warrior (Orlanth Thunderous) 

The second part is the Lightbringers Ring: 

8.      Issaries, Speaker and Keeper of the Way

9.      Lhankor Mhy, Keeper of Knowledge

10.   Chalana Arroy, Source of Mercy and Healing

11.   Eurmal, Clever and Wily Trickster

12.   Flesh Man, Fearful and Mortal

13.   Ginna Jar, Enigmatic (manifested when summoned as the tribal wyter)

All tribal council members must be at least initiates of the cults that they represent. Rune Masters are by far preferred, and the more powerful they are the better. Clan rivalries and other considerations are often influential.

That's a big change from what's stated in Sartar – Kingdom of Heroes, but given the amount of (real-world) time that's passed since then that's not surprising.  (Time to make some revisions in my writeup for the Lismelder tribal council, I guess.)

I'm a bit confused about the last two positions, though, so I had a few follow-up questions for @Jeff (or I guess anyone else who might know the answers):

59 minutes ago, Jeff said:

12.   Flesh Man, Fearful and Mortal

You say all tribal council members must be at least initiates of the cults that they represent... but CoR:L explicitly says that Flesh Man has no cult.  So is this position an exception?  What qualifies someone to represent Flesh Man on the tribal council?

59 minutes ago, Jeff said:

13.   Ginna Jar, Enigmatic (manifested when summoned as the tribal wyter)

I'm not sure exactly what the parenthetical part means.  Does the wyter serve as Ginna Jar's representative on the council—meaning that the tribal council really only has twelve flesh-and-blood members, with the wyter serving as an honorary thirteenth member?  Or is there a tribe member who serves as a representative of Ginna Jar, and the manifestation only occurs on special occasions?  In the latter case, of course, the same questions apply as for Flesh Man, since Ginna Jar doesn't have a cult either.

[radmonger]

I don't see how that list works at all - it seems to have zero flexibility to accomdate regional variations. For example, according to LoR:DP, I don't think there is a Storm Bull temple anywhere near the lands of any of the Wilmskirk federation tribes.

Are all tribes now supposed to be appointing foreigners to the tribal council?

 

 

[Jens]

1 hour ago, radmonger said:

I don't see how that list works at all - it seems to have zero flexibility to accomdate regional variations.

The flexibility is in the preamble- "As with most Orlanthi customs, variants are common".

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, Jex said:

You say all tribal council members must be at least initiates of the cults that they represent... but CoR:L explicitly says that Flesh Man has no cult.  So is this position an exception?  What qualifies someone to represent Flesh Man on the tribal council?

This is everyman. He has no cult because all humans are part of his "cult" - all are mortals, so what qualifies you is being a mortal human adult. The need for who this is will vary. Maybe one year it is Barntar the farmer, another it is a stickpicker, or Diros the boatman, or the head of a family who leads worship of their ancestors (i.e. Daka Fal who = Grandfather Mortal = Flesh Man). 

2 hours ago, Jex said:

I'm not sure exactly what the parenthetical part means.  Does the wyter serve as Ginna Jar's representative on the council—meaning that the tribal council really only has twelve flesh-and-blood members, with the wyter serving as an honorary thirteenth member?

I expect, yes. It may be otherwise represented as a painted jar or some other totem of the wyter.

[French Desperate WindChild]

11 hours ago, radmonger said:

I don't see how that list works at all - it seems to have zero flexibility to accomdate regional variations. For example, according to LoR:DP, I don't think there is a Storm Bull temple anywhere near the lands of any of the Wilmskirk federation tribes.

Are all tribes now supposed to be appointing foreigners to the tribal council?

 

 

I would be surprised if you cannot find at least 1 (just 1!) initiate of storm bull in a full Orlanthi tribe . Maybe there is no temple but one guy may travel to a far temple if needed and as part of the ring he/she may manage a shrine and try (or not) to develop a bully community

probably not a big power in the ring for’ sure but the ring could fit the myths and the SB representative could play the role in any clan heroquest requiring the beast aspect

[Soccercalle]

It is logical that the Wyter is Ginna Jar. It may be symbolic if the wyter is say, a spear or a stone.

[Malin]

12 hours ago, radmonger said:

I don't see how that list works at all - it seems to have zero flexibility to accomdate regional variations. For example, according to LoR:DP, I don't think there is a Storm Bull temple anywhere near the lands of any of the Wilmskirk federation tribes.

In my glorantha that is why the names of the gods are in parenthesis. If there are no suitable members of that cult, a representative of a related cult with a suitable temperament/reputation/runes/political affiliations will fill the spot. In your example, the Beast Wind, Untamed and Slayer of Chaos might be an Orlanth Adventurous cultist with a reputation as a chaos killer.

Edited January 3 by Malin

[Zebraman1]

My understanding is that Storm Bull temples aren't particularly well maintained in any case and the Rune Priests and Runelords travel around quite a bit. But perhaps I'm wrong.

[jajagappa]

4 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I would be surprised if you cannot find at least 1 (just 1!) initiate of storm bull in a full Orlanthi tribe . Maybe there is no temple but one guy may travel to a far temple if needed and as part of the ring he/she may manage a shrine and try (or not) to develop a bully community

Agree. There will in all probability be a shrine in most Orlanth temples to the Storm Bull.

15 hours ago, radmonger said:

a Storm Bull temple anywhere near the lands of any of the Wilmskirk federation tribes.

Try the village of Firebull in the Sambarri lands.

See Dragon Pass book p.56: "Firebull (village) This village in Saruvan’s Hills is the main settlement of the Firebull Clan of the Sambarri Tribe. They rose against the Lunar Occupation in 1615, but their rebellion was quickly crushed by the Lunar Army. The village is surrounded by thick woods of fir, cedar, and pine, and the villagers are mainly herders. The village has a minor temple to Orlanth Thunderous and Ernalda. A nearby rock formation serves as a minor temple to Storm Bull."

[Richard S.]

That's a pretty significant change from the tribal council description given in King of Sartar's Report on the Orlanthi. This version drops Asrelia, Voria, and Yelmalio entirely to replace them with Kolat, Flesh Man, and Ginna Jar. I'd like to know the reasoning behind it, but maybe that's merely considered a "minor variation", and the organization given in KoS is just the version of whichever tribe was surveyed (probably the Colymar if I had to guess).

[Malin]

I would see that as a minor variation of a more earth focused clan. Voria is essentially the same function as Flesh Man, the everyman spot. Asrelia instead of Kolat gives it a more earth heavy feel, suitable for a clan without focus on Shamanism and wind spirits. Yelmalio/Elmal instead of Ginna Jar to represent a larger minority in the clan. 

[radmonger]

To establish the Prince, cities and tribal confederations, Sartar must have made some fairly major changes to the cult of Orlanth Rex. The new list looks to have more urban cults in it, e.g. Chalana Arroy. 

So I'd say that, comparable to the way other out of print material has been treated, it is deep backstory, a memory of the way things were before Sartar was founded. The Colymar, as a traidtionalist clan without a city, still keep some relics from this era, such as the Yelmalian spot on the Ring. 

7 Lightbringers is a fixed list, but 6 Winds is pretty open. iIf Ernalda already counts as the 'Earth Wind',  _5th Wind, Steady and Calm_ seems about right.

 

[Jex]

2 hours ago, radmonger said:

The new list looks to have more urban cults in it, e.g. Chalana Arroy.

Chalana Arroy was already in the old list in Sartar — Kingdom of Heroes:

Quote

The Tribal Council
Thirteen members usually make up a tribal council.  As with most Orlanthi customs, variants are common, but usually minor.

The High Thirteen are:
1. Orlanth, the Chief; and
2‑5. Orlanth's kin, Humakt, Urox, Thunder Brothers (adventurer, thunderer, lightning, snow, thief)
6‑9. his 4 thanes: Issaries, Lhankor Mhy, Chalana Arroy, Elmal,
10. Ernalda, his partner; and
11. Her family member Asrelia
12. Her family member Voria; and
13. Eurmal, the Trickster

@Malin has accurately stated the primary changes: Elmal, Asrelia, and Voria are out; Kolat, Flesh Man, and Ginna Jar are in.  (Though I wouldn't draw the same correspondences between the old and new members as Malin did.)

Also I guess Orlanth Adventurer and Orlanth Thunderer took the place of the Thunder Brothers, though the inclusion of "adventurer, thunderer" in parentheses sort of implies they were already options.

The rest of the list is unchanged except for the order.

[Jeff]

1 hour ago, Jex said:

Chalana Arroy was already in the old list in Sartar — Kingdom of Heroes:

@Malin has accurately stated the primary changes: Elmal, Asrelia, and Voria are out; Kolat, Flesh Man, and Ginna Jar are in.  (Though I wouldn't draw the same correspondences between the old and new members as Malin did.)

Also I guess Orlanth Adventurer and Orlanth Thunderer took the place of the Thunder Brothers, though the inclusion of "adventurer, thunderer" in parentheses sort of implies they were already options.

The rest of the list is unchanged except for the order.

As an aside, the version presented in KoS was deliberately written as an in-setting description. Greg and I continued to work on it, particularly as we looked at how the cults interact at a tribal level (post rethinking the approach taken in ToDP). That meant going back to earlier versions that emphasised the Lightbringers more. 

There are two magical collections at play on the tribal council. The first are Orlanth and his family, mainly Air gods (but also Ernalda). The second are his Lightbringer companions. As a result, a Dragon Pass-area tribe's magic leans to Orlanth, the Air Gods, Ernalda, and the Lightbringers. And that is it. No Yelmalio, not all that much Earth magic. 

You'd see a different mix in Esrolia, with more focus on Ernalda and her family, plus the Husband deities. And we know that the Sun Dome temple has a different mix as well, with Yelmalio, various Celestial associates, Ernalda, and maybe Aldrya. Might there be some variants, with some odd tribes? Sure, but what is presented above is what MOST Orlanthi tribes around Dragon Pass use.

[Richard S.]

While looking up some other stuff I found that this "new" version is actually the same council organization used in the old Sartar High Council game, from WF#7. Neat!

It does really emphasize that Sartar's cults revolve around Orlanth. Ernalda's there, but in this context, without her family, she feels like just another important companion for Orlanth rather than an equal counterpart, especially since she's presented as one of the winds. By rephrasing Eurmal, Chalana, Issaries, and Lhankor's places as Lightbringers instead of "thanes" it also emphasizes what Orlanthi religion is really based on - not slavish dedication to copying some mythical "tribe", but rather invoking the powers of life and change that created the world within time.

Edited January 6 by Richard S.

[Jex]

8 hours ago, Jeff said:

Might there be some variants, with some odd tribes? Sure, but what is presented above is what MOST Orlanthi tribes around Dragon Pass use.

Thanks for all the information; you've been very helpful!  I'm still kind of wondering about those last two positions, though. Given that Flesh Man doesn't have a cult, who generally represents Flesh Man on the council, or can anyone represent Flesh Man in principle and is the choice of council member mostly a matter of politics?  And does Ginna Jar have a human representative on the council, or does the council only have twelve human members with the wyter considered an honorary thirteenth member?

EDITED TO ADD:

2 hours ago, Richard S. said:

While looking up some other stuff I found that this "new" version is actually the same council organization used in the old Sartar High Council game, from WF#7. Neat!

Oh, that is interesting!  I just looked that up and in the council described there, Flesh Man is represented by a young man who was recently elected mayor of a town (so he does hold some political power, but has no apparent special religious rank), and there is no human representative for Ginna Jar.  So I guess I'll follow that until and unless I hear otherwise.

Edited January 6 by Jex

[radmonger]

58 minutes ago, Jex said:

Given that Flesh Man doesn't have a cult, who generally represents Flesh Man on the council, or can anyone represent Flesh Man in principle and is the choice of council member mostly a matter of politics? 

In the old Sartar High Council descriptuon in WF#7, the Flesh Man representative is one Garaystar Flatnose, who was apparently City Rex of Wilmskirk. So perhaps more a wildcard slot?

I think that also reinforces the theory that the list is specifically a Sartarite one, and tribes elsewhere may use different forms.

Also, the Sartar High Co8uncil has 12 members, not 13, but is that because the list skips Ginna Jar, the wyter, or just because there was no acknowledged legitimatre Prince at the time? Kallai Rockbuster was King of the Colymar, but as far as I know never made a wider claim.

Anyway, plenty of precedents for the Lawspeakers to quote...