Lismelder Questions

[Jex]

Okay, I'm still working on my Marshedge project, and I hoped I was at the point where I wouldn't have any more questions about the Lismelder, but... well, I'm afraid I have another question.  When I expressed concern in another thread that I was worried about cluttering up the forum with too many questions about the Lismelder, @Jason Farrell recommended perhaps just creating a consolidated thread dedicated to these questions, so... I guess that's what I'm going to do.  This may be my last question, but I thought I was out of questions before and ended up having more, so I figured I'd create a general thread just in case.

Anyway, so, my first (and maybe only, but don't hold me to that) question for this thread is... what is the Lismelder tribe's wyter?  I don't remember it being addressed in TotRM #18 where the Lismelder tribe is described.  (Or were wyters not a thing yet when that zine was written?)  If it hasn't been canonically defined yet, it seems to me the most likely candidate for the wyter would be one of the relics of Indrodar TotRM #19 describes as being kept in the Temple of Indrodar in the Swordvale Hillfort—I'm leaning toward Daughters Bane, the enchanted wooden sword with which Indrodar slew many vampires.  But I thought I'd bring it up here in case it has been defined somewhere in canon (or in a semicanon zine) and I missed it, or in case anyone has a better idea.

Edited January 7 by Jex

[David Scott]

9 hours ago, Jex said:

what is the Lismelder tribe's wyter?

Quote

The sword Wrath was forged by the Mostali during the Great Darkness to fight Nontraya and his Undead Empire. It is a double-edged iron longsword with a cruciform hilt intended to be used with both hands. Silver-inlayed runic inscriptions are carved into the groove; most prominent is the Death Rune (which the sword itself resembles). The sword is sacred to the Humakt cult, part of the Lismelder tribal regalia, and tied to the Greydog wyter.

Sartar Kingdom of Heroes (2009)

 

[jajagappa]

6 hours ago, David Scott said:

The sword Wrath was forged by the Mostali during the Great Darkness to fight Nontraya and his Undead Empire.

Based on the scenario included in Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes though, the sword Wrath is/was lost to the tribe (if I recall that scenario occurs in ~1618 ST, so if working with the tribe as of 1625, presumably some group of adventurers or Killer Branduin successfully recovered it).

[Jex]

2 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Based on the scenario included in Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes though, the sword Wrath is/was lost to the tribe (if I recall that scenario occurs in ~1618 ST, so if working with the tribe as of 1625, presumably some group of adventurers or Killer Branduin successfully recovered it).

Yes, exactly; that's why I figured Wrath couldn't be the tribal wyter—because the tribe didn't have it!

(Even if it was recovered c. 1618, (a) did the Lismelder end up with it?  The adventures in SKoH seem to imply it may have been kept by the Colymar, and (b) even if the Lismelder did get Wrath back, they'd clearly been getting by up until then with something else as the wyter; would they want to change wyters after so long, and is that even something it's possible to do?)

[jajagappa]

Just now, Jex said:

Yes, exactly; that's why I figured Wrath couldn't be the tribal wyter—because the tribe didn't have it!

I'd probably make it part of the Tribal Regalia, but not the wyter's host.

1 minute ago, Jex said:

(Even if it was recovered c. 1618, (a) did the Lismelder end up with it?  The adventures in SKoH seem to imply it may have been kept by the Colymar, and (b) even if the Lismelder did get Wrath back, they'd clearly been getting by up until then with something else as the wyter; would they want to change wyters after so long, and is that even something it's possible to do?)

a) Up to you to decide (or provide an expected outcome and an alternative). If you have Branduin gain it, then he clearly becomes a powerful leader among the Lismelder, so it depends on what you want to do with him - if you want him as Clan Chieftain (or Tribal King), then that was his springboard to power (even if he had to recover it from the Colymar). If you position that some of the Colymar gained it, then either Kangharl helped protect it (fending off Lismelder requests), or he took it and gave it back to the Lismelder in return for some favors, or he turned it over to the Lunars for other favors; or at some point the Lismelder reclaimed it from the Colymar and the Lunars discouraged any further tribal feuding over it.

b) As above, I'd position Wrath as part of the Regalia, but not the wyter.

[jajagappa]

19 hours ago, Jex said:

it seems to me the most likely candidate for the wyter would be one of the relics of Indrodar TotRM #19 describes as being kept in the Temple of Indrodar in the Swordvale Hillfort—I'm leaning toward Daughters Bane, the enchanted wooden sword with which Indrodar slew many vampires.

One consideration though is that I believe it was Lismelder who formed the tribe, not Indrodar, so the wyter would most likely pre-date him (though as the Lismelder were war-like members of the Malani tribe before their break, the wyter would most likely have an affinity to War and Death).

[Jex]

3 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

One consideration though is that I believe it was Lismelder who formed the tribe, not Indrodar, so the wyter would most likely pre-date him (though as the Lismelder were war-like members of the Malani tribe before their break, the wyter would most likely have an affinity to War and Death).

Lismelder was the first leader of the tribe, but Indrodar was there from the beginning.  He had been the Sword of Humakt of the Malani Tribe before the Lismelder split off, and when Lismelder decided to leave the Malani and found her own tribe he joined her.  He was champion of the tribe and performed many notable deeds during Queen Lismelder's rule, long before he became king of the tribe himself.

That being said... hm, how early in a tribe's existence is the wyter chosen?  Obviously during Indrodar's lifetime he was actively using the weapons and other artefacts now stored in the Swordvale Hillfort; could one of them have been the wyter while he was still using it?  And if so, then... then yes, the most logical choice might have been Wrath, but then what would have happened when it was lost in the Upland Marsh?  What happens when a tribe loses its wyter; can it just choose another?

[jajagappa]

51 minutes ago, Jex said:

That being said... hm, how early in a tribe's existence is the wyter chosen? 

When the tribe comes into existence - it's the quest to form the Tribe. 

If a tribe loses its wyter, then it requires a new quest with a new ritual object (I think that is described either in the RQ Bestiary or Cults of RQ Mythology).

[Jex]

15 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

If a tribe loses its wyter, then it requires a new quest with a new ritual object (I think that is described either in the RQ Bestiary or Cults of RQ Mythology).

Hm... I checked both those sources and don't see anything about replacing wyters, but that does make sense.  In which case, it would be possible that Wrath was the tribe's original wyter, but after it was lost with Indrodar in the Upland Marsh the tribe had to go on a quest to create a new wyter.  And presumably when and if Wrath was recovered, someone could in principle go on another quest to make it the wyter again, but that probably wouldn't be worth the trouble.

(Except hm, wait, the wyter resides in a material object, but isn't the material object, right?  The wyter is a spirit.  So if Wrath was the wyter, that actually means the wyter was a spirit residing within Wrath.  And given that the wyter can travel incorporeally from its sacred object, it wouldn't necessarily have been trapped with Wrath... though this may be academic, since even if the actual spirit part of the wyter wasn't lost, per se, a quest may still have been required to give the wyter a new sacred object to reside in.)

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Jex said:

The wyter is a spirit.  So if Wrath was the wyter, that actually means the wyter was a spirit residing within Wrath.  And given that the wyter can travel incorporeally from its sacred object, it wouldn't necessarily have been trapped with Wrath... though this may be academic, since even if the actual spirit p

Yes, the wyter is a spirit/magical entity. Relevant entries would be:

RQ Bestiary p.173: "A wyter is the spirit of a community. It is a magical entity which is linked to its members and a leader and has been conferred with special powers and abilities.... A wyter is a powerful resource for a community but also the community’s most precious treasure. Without the wyter the community does not exist."

p.174: "A wyter has a single person it is bound to, typically the leader of the wyter’s community, e.g., the king of a tribe, a clan chief, the high priest of a temple, etc... The wyter can be transferred to another priest; this requires consent of all involved and an additional sacrifice of POW by the new priest. Such transfer is fraught with peril and is never lightly made." 

p.174: "A wyter must reside in a specific sacred thing in the mundane world, such as an idol or dolmen, or less commonly a smaller object like a weapon, animal, or even a regimental standard." 

p.174: "A wyter can travel incorporeally some distance from its sacred object. The distance depends on the wyter and its community, but typically the range is around a half kilometer per point of POW possessed by the wyter." [This largely precludes getting back to Lismelder lands if bound to Wrath and lost in the Marsh.]

Looking in the Lightbringer's book under Humakt, note the presence of Indrodar Greydog as a subcult (p.107-8). I think this would largely rule out him as the wyter spirit.

The other book with text on the wyter turned out to be the RQG core book.

p.286: "A wyter is a powerful resource for a community, but is also the community’s most precious treasure. Without the wyter the community does not exist, the bonds of fraternity dissolving. Its members will become alienated from one another, moving apart, perhaps even leaving the area."

p.286: "Whatever the origins, these magical entities have become wyters through heroquests that bind the spirit and the community together."

p.287: ". If the wyter’s POW is ever reduced to 0, the wyter is extinguished and the community is no more, losing any cohesion and naturally disbanding. All Passions associated with that community are lost."

p.287: "If the wyter’s sacred object is destroyed or killed, the wyter is released, requiring a new heroquest to return the wyter to the community. Often when the wyter is bound to a living thing, it is ritually killed or destroyed allowing the wyter to be transferred to a new object without the need for a heroquest. For example, the wyter of the Enhyli Clan is bound to a sacred white stallion. When the horse reaches a specific age, it is sacrificed during a day-long ceremony, and the wyter is transferred to a younger stallion."

Since the Lismelder tribe continued to exist after the Queen's disappearance/death, I think we can conclude that either Indrodar and others quickly performed a heroquest and regained the wyter, or the wyter did not go with the Queen into the Marsh (left behind to guard it while she quested herself). 

Obviously the tribe continues to exist, so its wyter must as well. 

One possibility is that the Lismelder wyter is not in a material object, but in a place such as Swordvale or Six Stones (note that per the entry in Lands of RuneQuest: Dragon Pass p.71: "Lismelder tribal assemblies take place here") or the Hare Woods (maybe the wyter is the Hare!). 

[Jeff]

4 hours ago, Jex said:

Yes, exactly; that's why I figured Wrath couldn't be the tribal wyter—because the tribe didn't have it!

(Even if it was recovered c. 1618, (a) did the Lismelder end up with it?  The adventures in SKoH seem to imply it may have been kept by the Colymar, and (b) even if the Lismelder did get Wrath back, they'd clearly been getting by up until then with something else as the wyter; would they want to change wyters after so long, and is that even something it's possible to do?)

Wrath is tied to the wyter, but not the same. It is part of the original regalia of the tribe. I figured that its loss explains in part the relative weakness of the Lismelder as a tribe. They are far more decentralised than the Colymar, not tied to any city, and so on. Heck, sometimes they barely seem like a tribe at all - just a loose grouping of local clans. Compare them with the Colymar or the Malani who are able to muster tribal "regiments" under the leadership of their kings.

[Jex]

2 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Since the Lismelder tribe continued to exist after the Queen's disappearance/death, I think we can conclude that either Indrodar and others quickly performed a heroquest and regained the wyter, or the wyter did not go with the Queen into the Marsh (left behind to guard it while she quested herself).

It was Indrodar who wielded Wrath, not Queen Lismelder; she didn't have it with her when she was killed in the Marsh.  Indrodar, on the other hand, did have it with him when he was killed in the Marsh; Wrath was lost with Indrodar.  Of course, given Jeff's post that Wrath wasn't the wyter, I guess this is kind of moot now anyway.

2 hours ago, jajagappa said:

One possibility is that the Lismelder wyter is not in a material object, but in a place such as Swordvale or Six Stones (note that per the entry in Lands of RuneQuest: Dragon Pass p.71: "Lismelder tribal assemblies take place here") or the Hare Woods (maybe the wyter is the Hare!). 

I don't see the Lismelder wyter being associated with the Hare Woods (the Greydog clan wyter, maybe, but that's not something I'm going to worry about; I'm focusing on the Marshedge clan in my project, and while I am including a general overview of the Lismelder tribe as a whole I'm not going into so much detail that I need to specify the wyters of every clan—and the Greydogs in particular I intend to keep my hands off of as much as possible for obvious reasons).  The Six Stones, on the other hand, do indeed seem like a very good possibility...

For the record here's more information about the Six Stones (a.k.a. Indrodar's Necklace) from TotRM19 (later reprinted in WF15 with a few minor alterations that don't significantly affect the meaning):

Quote

This ancient circle of standing stones was originally used by Indrodar Greydog as a mustering place against zombie attacks.  Since his death it has become more important to the Cult of Indrodar and the Lismelder tribe.

This is the place where all tribal musters of warriors are held, where the Lismelder king usually invokes his Command Worshippers Divine Magic [i.e. Rune] spell.

At the center of the circle stand [sic] the shrine to Indrodar.  In time of war small stones can be found grouped around the shrine.  These always add up to the number of tribal warriors who answer the summons to muster.  Each warrior picks up a stone and before any battle he drops it, along with the others, in a pile near the battlefield.  After the battle each surviving warrior picks up a stone from this pile.  When counted, the stones that are left show how many Lismelder have fallen on the battlefield.

Yeah, actually, I guess I was too fixed on thinking of an object for the wyter rather than a place, but now that you bring it up I think the Six Stones may make more sense as the tribal wyter than one of Indrodar's artefacts.  (The bit implying it wasn't as important before Indrodar's death may seem to contradict that—but again, I think that was written before wyters were a thing, and some very minor retconning may be excusable.)  I think I'll go with the Six Stones as the tribal wyter until I find out canon states otherwise or I hear a better idea.

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Jex said:

I think I'll go with the Six Stones as the tribal wyter until I find out canon states otherwise or I hear a better idea.

The Six Stones may simply be the place in which the wyter is bound or manifests, not necessarily the wyter itself (which might be an ancient undead fighting spirit or the like). If I recall from the old HeroQuest era work, the Coming Storm, Ian used the Mythic era clan questionnaire as a method to determine the characteristics of the wyter spirit. Or you might specifically or randomly select 2-3 dominant Runes (Death seems a likely one if bound at Six Stones) to work out its traits, as you need them.

[Jex]

Just now, jajagappa said:

The Six Stones may simply be the place in which the wyter is bound or manifests, not necessarily the wyter itself (which might be an ancient undead fighting spirit or the like).

Right, that's what I mean; I was speaking loosely—I meant the Six Stones would be the sacred object the wyter resides in.

I'm not planning to stat up the Lismelder tribal wyter—like I said, I'm including a brief overview of the Lismelder tribe, so I figure I should mention things like the identity of their wyter and the membership of the Lismelder tribal council, but I'm not going to be providing statblocks for them.  I will be providing full stats for the Marshedge clan wyter, though, so it's still useful to know where to find information about determining wyters' traits.

[Divadllah]

I have a different take on this. I think the tribe and the Six Stones temple are separate with different wyters. Clearly they’re also very interconnected, but the temple traditionally seeks to remain above tribal politics as it guards all against Delecti. It has only reluctantly stepped in once before (to great effect).

The loss of Wrath primarily weakened the temple, and by extension the tribe (cf. the loss of land to the marsh, especially Marshedge lands). It’s return has so far physically strengthened the temple, but not the tribe due to recent tribal kings refusing to fully embrace the rituals of kingship, in particular the fourth (secret) part of the Silent Words ritual. 

However, there must be some Indrodari emboldened by the return of Wrath, who seek a more active role for temple against Delecti and in Lismelder tribal politics - as well as with the ducks. 

So, here’s my take…

The Swords of Indrodar

Indrodar Greydog owned many swords, but his most famous were:

• Wrath, a double-edged iron two-handed longsword with a cruciform hilt forged by the Mostali during the Great Darkness to fight Nontraya and his Undead Empire. Indrodar won this from the Dwarf of Dwarf Run in return for a future favour. Thought lost, it was found in 1618 and eventually returned to the temple and is now part of its regalia. 
• Glory, a duck-forged short sword given to him when he was proclaimed “Duckfriend”. It’s also known as “the Sword in between”. This is lost (though some stories say it’s in a “safe place”). 
• Faith, sometimes called Fangcleaver. This one-handed arming sword was originally wielded by Li Phanquan when he vanquished The Soulless Court, a coven of six legendary heroes of Vivamort. For now, the Indrodar temple wyter is housed in this sword. 

The Lismelder Tribal Wyter

The first wyter of the Lismelder tribe resided in Neresteva’s Axe (previously wielded by Lornar Greydog’s first wife). This wyter bound together the founding members of the tribe, who were refugees from the Malani. 

After Queen Lismelder was liberated from undeath, Indrodar created new rites of kingship and also brought back Lismelder as the tribal wyter. She resides in a jewelled copper diadem (half crown). Normally the tribe’s Earth Priestess interacts with her. 

Neresteva’s Axe remains an important part of the tribal regalia. 

[Jex]

Ah, if you were involved in the original Lismelder writeup in TotRM (as I gather was the case from something you mentioned in another thread, but correct me if I'm mistaken), then you certainly know the Lismelder a lot better than I do, so I'll defer to you on this.  (I hadn't considered Lismelder herself becoming the tribe's wyter... interesting.)

On a somewhat related note, I was poking around other threads and noticed something you mentioned a long time ago:

On 6/9/2019 at 4:54 AM, Divadllah said:

His Hero cult has its own gifts & geas. One of them is "Never let a duck suffer needlessly" 

Since the hero cult of Indrodar is so important to the Lismelder tribe, I had planned to write up some information about it.  (His hero cult is of course briefly described in CoR:L, but I figured it could be expanded on a bit, drawing from the material in TotRM.)  Do you recall any other gifts and geases specific to his hero cult?  And, conversely, are there any of the geases and gifts from the standard Humakti lists that you think wouldn't be as appropriate for a member of the hero cult of Indrodar?

[David Scott]

2 hours ago, Jex said:

if you were involved in the original Lismelder writeup in TotRM

Divad Llah - read it backwards. He's one of the authors along with Jon Quaife.

[Divadllah]

2 hours ago, Jex said:

Ah, if you were involved in the original Lismelder writeup in TotRM (as I gather was the case from something you mentioned in another thread, but correct me if I'm mistaken), then you certainly know the Lismelder a lot better than I do, so I'll defer to you on this.  (I hadn't considered Lismelder herself becoming the tribe's wyter... interesting.)

On a somewhat related note, I was poking around other threads and noticed something you mentioned a long time ago:

Since the hero cult of Indrodar is so important to the Lismelder tribe, I had planned to write up some information about it.  (His hero cult is of course briefly described in CoR:L, but I figured it could be expanded on a bit, drawing from the material in TotRM.)  Do you recall any other gifts and geases specific to his hero cult?  And, conversely, are there any of the geases and gifts from the standard Humakti lists that you think wouldn't be as appropriate for a member of the hero cult of Indrodar?

I used to publish and edit Tales of the Reaching Moon, played in Jon Quaife's original Greydog campaign and ran my own long-standing Greydog campaign. Jon's contribution to Lismelder & Greydog lore can't be underestimated, along with Dan Barker, David Gordon, Rick Meints, Steve Thomas, Simon Bray, Martin Laurie in the zine and Jeff Richard in Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes. Plus the insidious influence of my other players, including Nick Brooke, Gwen Mott, David Scott, Carl Pates, Peter Erickson & Colin Phillips.   

I do have a write up of the Indrodar hero cult and the temple, both are work-in-progress.  

Unique Gifts                                                                                             # Geases
+25% to Upland Marsh Lore                                                         1
+4 to effective (false) POW versus Enthral or Harmony             1
I am Death: The presence of the cultist acts as a Death rune    4 (probably too powerful!)
Walk like a Duck (+25% to swimming or clodhopping* skill)      1

*While I like this skill, others hate it! So an Upland Marsh movement skill (with a cooler name) will be substituted here eventually.   

I'd replace the standard write-up Sense Assassin & Disease & Poison gifts with the above - given the unique focus of the Indrodar temple. But they could be gained at a different Humakti temple. 

Unique Geases
- Never retreat from vampires
- Total celibacy, except after battle    
- Never let a duck suffer needlessly

The standard Humakti geases are fine, though "Drink no alcoholic beverages" is rarer and I would probably remove "Mistrust all Mostali". 

Edited January 8 by Divadllah

[Jex]

9 hours ago, Divadllah said:

*While I like this skill, others hate it! So an Upland Marsh movement skill (with a cooler name) will be substituted here eventually.  

For what it's worth, I had planned on including the clodhopping skill in the Marshedge project I'm working on...

[Jex]

All right, I suppose I do have another question.  On the map of the Upland Marsh in TotRM 19, WF15, and S:KoH 322 (it's the same map appearing in all three sources), there's a dragonewt rune in the northwestern part of the Lismelder lands.  This doesn't appear in later maps of the area, although the current map of Sartar does depict a dinosaur in roughly the same location—whether or not that's connected.  I was going to just have the location of that rune be an old dragonewt plinth that perhaps once before the Dragonkill was part of a road network that ran through the area that is now the Upland Marsh, but that currently isn't connected to anything.  However, since there are people here who were around when those maps were drawn, I thought I'd bring it up here in case there was any other intent behind that rune that anyone here was aware of.

[jajagappa]

35 minutes ago, Jex said:

This doesn't appear in later maps of the area, although the current map of Sartar does depict a dinosaur in roughly the same location—whether or not that's connected.  I was going to just have the location of that rune be an old dragonewt plinth that perhaps once before the Dragonkill was part of a road network that ran through the area that is now the Upland Marsh, but that currently isn't connected to anything.

Look at the map of Dragonewt Roads in the Dragon Pass book p.155 (relevant snippet below). Two of the main Dragonewt Roads along the edges of the marsh, so, yes, there are plinths, and yes there are active roads there.

[jajagappa]

Sorry, just realized you must be talking about this one which is off the active road systems. For that one, yes, I think it is from a broken road - perhaps it connected to the Dragonewt Zombies marker in the marsh. Since the new map has a dinosaur, maybe a magisaur has made a home there?

Edited January 15 by jajagappa

[Jex]

8 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Look at the map of Dragonewt Roads in the Dragon Pass book p.155 (relevant snippet below). Two of the main Dragonewt Roads along the edges of the marsh, so, yes, there are plinths, and yes there are active roads there.

Wrong edges.  The place marked with the rune on the maps I'm referring to is on the southeastern edge of the marsh, not particularly near any of the main roads:

EDIT: Whoops, cross-posted; sorry... your second post wasn't there when I started this post.

Edited January 15 by Jex

[jajagappa]

13 minutes ago, Jex said:

not particularly near any of the main roads... sorry... your second post wasn't there when I started this post

Yes, I discovered the one you were looking at after my first post.

Now you might envision another road parallel to the one from High Wyrm to Giant Bone running north-south through that point - might lead you to the east slope of Ormfang going north or to Centaur Cross going south.

[Jex]

3 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Now you might envision another road parallel to the one from High Wyrm to Giant Bone running north-south through that point - might lead you to the east slope of Ormfang going north or to Centaur Cross going south.

It's worth noting that according to TotRM 19 / WF15 there was a draconic temple during the time of the Empire of the Wyrms' Friends in the middle of what is now the Upland Marsh (see the description of Broken Fang), so there having been a dragonewt road through there at the time does seem reasonable.  (Albeit not necessarily due directly north-south; the temple seems to have been more NNW than straight north from the location of the rune.  So perhaps the road was parallel to the one from High Wyrm to Stones-Above-Souls?)  I'm just curious whether anyone who was around at the time and involved in the Lismelder campaign knows if there may have been a different intent behind the rune's presence on the map.