RQ 6 Special Effects

[silent_bob]

Loz,

A few of us have been discussing special effects systems like the one in GURPS. I understand that RQ6 has a special effects system as well. Can you explain it and give a few examples?

[nclarke]

In the absence of the man but with my own copy of the holy grail I can tell you that the special effects system is a slightly updated version of the one in MRQII/Legend.

Beating your opponent in combat by a level of success allows the choice of combat manoeuvres which are now called special effects. If you grab a copy of the GM's package from Design Mechanisms website it has a copy of the chart included.

[lawrence.whitaker]

Nclarke has given the best advice. Grab the GM's Guide (noting the two rather wonderful scenarios in there) and the Special Effects tables and descriptions.

They offer LOTS of options and turn fights that generally result in 'stop when one of you dies' into tactical ballets that can have some terrific outcomes. My favourite of all the Effects is Compel Surrender. I've used this, and seen it used, to spectacular game effect during our playtests.

[Gollum]

Hi everybody!

I am the one who was speaking about special effects with Silent_Bob in the Basic Roleplaying subforum. I liked this expression and wanted to know more about its meaning.

Beating your opponent in combat by a level of success allows the choice of combat manoeuvres which are now called special effects.

Here is a huge difference between GURPS and RQ. In GURPS, you choose your maneuver before rolling, as you would do in real life. You try to do something precise and then, you see whether you succeed.

[Gollum]

Nclarke has given the best advice. Grab the GM's Guide (noting the two rather wonderful scenarios in there) and the Special Effects tables and descriptions.

Thank you for the hint. I will glance at it.

[lawrence.whitaker]

Here is a huge difference between GURPS and RQ. In GURPS, you choose your maneuver before rolling, as you would do in real life. You try to do something precise and then, you see whether you succeed.

Yes, choosing an effect in RQ is done after the fact. There are two rationales for this.

1. As in real life

While some effects will be chosen as part of the strategy to hit, some are a result of how the opponent reacts and what opportunities are then open to the attacker (or defender) as a result. Remember that in RQ a defender can also choose a special effect if he scores a better success than the attacker. I don't know if GURPS works in this way, but certainly where RQ is concerned it widens the scope of effect use.

2. Skill Rolls

Usually, in systems where an effect is selected before an attack, some form of penalty is applied to the roll. This isn't necessarily realistic because it reduce the overall chance of doing anything. By waiting to see the outcome of both attack and defence rolls, RQ keeps the overall chance of success stable and makes it dependent on what defence is offered, and how good that defence roll is.

[rust]

In GURPS, you choose your maneuver before rolling, as you would do in real life. You try to do something precise and then, you see whether you succeed.

It takes two to Tango.

To try something specific and see whether you succeed is a good approach for

an attack on an object, but in a combat against another person one has to find

out what is possible during the actual combat, because the opponent rarely co-

operates well enough to permit any orginally intended maneuver.

[Atgxtg]

Yeah,. in a fight there are times when you have to take what if offered. I once kept hitting someone in his foot becuase he keep leading with it and left it open. Likewise, the best head hit I even got was when I wasn't trying to hit the other guy at all. I did a feint slash to force my oppoent to one side. Unfornately, he did a circular parry and turned a miss into a head hit. Luckily, it was a low power attack with a shinai.

[Gollum]

Actually, both are true.

Sure, what you do depends on what exactly does the defender... But ones you choose to do something, you don't really have the time to change your mind... If you decide to aim at an arm, for instance, you don't have the time to suddenly aim at the leg just because the enemy moved his arm off during your attack. You simply missed his arm and have to make another attack if you want to aim at his leg after that.

This is how I interpret a missed attack roll. The defender doesn't have to defend himself... Not because the attack was too clumsy, but because what the defender did without defending himself was enough to avoid it: he moved away without necessarily wanting it.

Of course, games which make the player choose his precise maneuver before rolling (and which don't let him change it no matter how well he succeeded), work with bonuses and penalties... But that is quite realistic. Some attacks are really harder than some others. Telegraphic attacks are, for instance, much easier to do than a normal attack. That's why beginner choose them... But they are much easier to parry too... Likewise, secret thrust like Lagardère one, in fencing, are harder to do than a normal attack. This is why only a very well trained fencer can do it and will find it difficult, despite of his training.

GURPS has critical successes and failures that can change the result of the attack, of course... But not the maneuver you chose. If you chose a mere swing attack to the torso, for instance, a critical success may make you dish out more damage, and this damage bonus may even make your foe step back, fall down, or collapse. Likewise, a critical failure can make you fall down, drop your weapon, or do anything else which will give your foe an edge during his next attack... But you won't ever hit the weapon arm or the head... You aimed at the torso and will hit the torso.

Finally, I think that the main difference between GURPS and RQ is the length of the turn. GURPS combat turns last only one second. In such a short time, you absolutely don't have the time to change your mind. You do something, see whether it works, and then try something else on the next turn... RQ combat turns last 12 seconds (or maybe 10; I don't know, I only use BRP)... A lot of things can happen in 12 seconds. Usually several attacks and defenses. That is why, in my humble opinion, RQ allow to choose the maneuver after the roll result and GURPS absolutely doesn't... Both are consistent.

And that is why, in my humble opinion, the expression "special effect" is better for RQ than for GURPS. Special effects are something that you add to enhance the movie... Often after the shooting. In GURPS, there is no really special effects. Results are just the direct consequences of player's choices.

Edited August 15, 2012 by Gollum

[Atgxtg]

/quote]

You do in a 12 second combat round. That is a key difference between BRP and GURPS. In GURPS you are dealing with 1 second increments, and pretty much running the fight blow by blow. In BRP an "attack" is the culmination of multiple strikes, feints, beats, and so on. So somebody has time to try something, fail, see an opportunity, and exploit it.

Of course, games which make the player choose his precise maneuver before rolling (and which don't let him change it no matter how well he succeeded), work with bonuses and penalties... But that is quite realistic. [.quote]

Note really. In a RPG this forces the player between going for some special maneuver OR just attacking and doing damage. In most cases hitting someone for damage is superior to other maneuvers. In real life, people do maneuver because they can't just hit the other guy. The neat swordplay stuff is designed to help create an opening that can be exploited to strike later. It's practically the exact opposite of how it works in most RPGs. Nobody would do a feint, beat, or other fancy move if it were easier to just hit the other guy.

Some attacks are really harder than some others. Telegraphic attacks are, for instance, much easier to do than a normal attack. That's why beginner choose them... But they are much easier to parry too... Likewise, secret thrust like Lagardère one, in fencing, are harder to do than a normal attack. This is why only a very well trained fencer can do it and will find it difficult, despite of his training.

Yes, but those secret attack are also harder to spot and stop. Basically, a simple attack should be easy, but also easy to parry.

GURPS has critical successes and failures that can change the result of the attack, of course... But not the maneuver you chose. If you chose a mere swing attack to the torso, for instance, a critical success may make you dish out more damage, and this damage bonus may even make your foe step back, fall down, or collapse. Likewise, a critical failure can make you fall down, drop your weapon, or do anything else which will give your foe an edge during his next attack... But you won't ever hit the weapon arm or the head... You aimed at the torso and will hit the torso.

But that isn't more realistic. Like I mentioned earilier, I got a really good head hit on somebody who I wasn't even trying to hit. The target is moving, and acting, so things don't always work out as planned.

Finally, I think that the main difference between GURPS and RQ is the length of the turn. GURPS combat turns last only one second. In such a short time, you absolutely don't have the time to change your mind. You do something, see whether it works, and then try something else on the next turn... RQ combat turns last 12 seconds (or maybe 10; I don't know, I only use BRP)... A lot of things can happen in 12 seconds. Usually several attacks and defenses. That is why, in my humble opinion, RQ allow to choose the maneuver after the roll result and GURPS absolutely doesn't... Both are consistent.

Yup. Plus game playt wise. it's no good having special maneuver that have a penalty. People won't want to use them if they are harder than just killing the other guy. By putting them in as a freebie, characters aren't penalized for fancy maneuvers.

[Zit]

It is all an interpretation of what the die roll simulates.

I haven’t read the RQ6 rules, but I guess they are much like the combat maneuvres in RQII. If this is the case, it seems to me that choosing a special effect before or after rolling the dice is not an important matter: it is likely that the player anyway knows before rolling any die how he wants to defeat his opponent and which special effect he would need for that if he had the chance to (and which ones are available for his fighting style). Ex: “I have to try to disarm my opponent, I want him alive!”or “He’s at the edge of a cliff. It would be great if I managed to push him down!” –roll the dice and hope getting a better level of success than the opponent.

The skill roll is in this case can be seen as creating conditions favorable to the desired special effect, not simply as an attempt to place a hit: you create the opportunity, which is what fighting is much about. If you didn’t succeed enough, well, you could only place a normal hit. Rolling the dice with penalties or requiring a better level of success are just mechanics, but at the end, both reduce the chances of placing the special effect.

The RQ systems still allow placing a normal hit when the special effect is impossible, or changing one’s mind and choosing another effect : a GM finding this to easy may impose an INT roll for any effect not stated before the die roll.

RQ is flexible and gives many opportunities to the player. It seems more realistic as well, corresponding the fluidity and unpredictability of a fight.

[Atgxtg]

What makes it an important matter is that there is no penalty for making the attempt. In RQII if you wanted to do a called shot or a disarm or some such you had to apply some sort of penalty to your attack, and if you failed you pretty much wasted the round. With the bonus kicking in as a result of the respective levels of success, you get rewarded with the maneuver rather than penalized for the attempt.

[Gollum]

Note really. In a RPG this forces the player between going for some special maneuver OR just attacking and doing damage. In most cases hitting someone for damage is superior to other maneuvers.

I can’t say how it works in a lot of other role playing games, but it is not the case in GURPS. If you make a normal attack, then, you will just do normal damage. Specific maneuvers which are harder to make always give you an edge: they do more damage, knock your foe down or out, etc. Brief, just hitting someone for damage is not at all superior. To the contrary. More difficult maneuvers are superior… But they are more difficult…

In real life, people do maneuver because they can't just hit the other guy. The neat swordplay stuff is designed to help create an opening that can be exploited to strike later. It's practically the exact opposite of how it works in most RPGs. Nobody would do a feint, beat, or other fancy move if it were easier to just hit the other guy.

I’m not a fencer. Just a black belt karateka. And I’ve always notice how GURPS was very close to what I feel during fight… Easier attacks are the easiest to parry. If you want to make the defender’s job more difficult, then you have to choose a more difficult technique…

This is exactly what you said: if you just do a normal attack in GURPS, then your opponent will often parry it. Now, if you want to pass your foe’s defenses, you better choose something else… Which is something more difficult to do. That is why beginners are less effective. They are not skilled enough to try more difficult maneuvers and so, all what they do is quite easy to parry or dodge.

Yes, but those secret attack are also harder to spot and stop. Basically, a simple attack should be easy, but also easy to parry.

Which is exactly what GURPS do. Telegraphic attacks are easier to do, but easier to parry.

But that isn't more realistic. Like I mentioned earlier, I got a really good head hit on somebody who I wasn't even trying to hit. The target is moving, and acting, so things don't always work out as planned.

Yes. But here is the main difference between RQ and GURPS. GURPS work with 1 second turn… It means that when you try a maneuver and can’t do it, the next turn already begins when you change your mind and try something else…

RQ, with its 12 seconds combat turn works differently. You have a lot of time to do several attacks and defense during one turn…

So, finally, both of these games are realistic.

In one second, you can’t change your mind and try something else. When you try to hit your foe at the head, for instance, and can’t do it because your foe suddenly moved, it just means that you missed your attack for that turn, or that your foe dodged it… In both cases, you will have to try something else… On your next turn only. Brief, things are not really planned in GURPS, because they are only planed for one second. And they don’t always work as you wanted…

In 12 seconds, to the contrary, you have a lot of opportunities to change your mind and to do something that you didn’t plan during the very first second … So rules have to take that into account. Things change a lot during only one turn…

Just imagine the reverse: a 12 second turn without the possibility to change your mind, or a 1 second turn with the possibility to try two different maneuvers… Both would be totally unrealistic.

it's no good having special maneuver that have a penalty. People won't want to use them if they are harder than just killing the other guy.

But precisely! If a GURPS character wants to kill his foe, he will have to choose the right maneuvers to do so. Otherwise, his foe will easily parry or dodge all his attacks… And the fight will be very, very long.

_____

That is why I wrote in the other thread that GURPS is more simulationist than BRP. In GURPS, you have to precise everything you do, and how exactly you try to do it, second after second… With RQ, to the contrary, you content yourself to roll; and you only choose a specific maneuver if you have a good roll.

Note that I don’t criticize RQ at all. And that I don’t say that more simulationist means more realistic. As I wrote it above, RQ is more realistic for a 12 seconds combat turn, while GURPS is more for a 1 second turn.

Brief both of these games have a very good consistency.

Edited August 15, 2012 by Gollum

[Gollum]

It is all an interpretation of what the die roll simulates.

I haven’t read the RQ6 rules, but I guess they are much like the combat maneuvres in RQII. If this is the case, it seems to me that choosing a special effect before or after rolling the dice is not an important matter...

I do agree with you for most part. I would just add, as I tried to explain it above, that it also depends on the length of the combat turn. Changing your mind in 1 second doesn't sound realistic. Neither does not having the possibility to do it in 12 seconds.

[rust]

I’m not a fencer. Just a black belt karateka. And I’ve always notice how GURPS was very close to what I feel during fight… Easier attacks are the easiest to parry. If you want to make the defender’s job more difficult, then you have to choose a more difficult technique…

In the martial arts sports one has only a limited choice of legitimate maneuvers,

and as a black belt karateka you will certainly have seen every legitimate attack

and defense, just as an experienced sports fencer is impossible to surprise with

any legitimate attack or parry. However, real combat has no rules and no defini-

tions of legitimate and forbidden maneuvers, everything goes, and an unknown

opponent's maneuvers are completely unpredictable. To give an example, my fa-

vourite fencing weapon was the rapier, and I soon learned that it was laughably

easy to defeat even excellent sports fencers with rather simple maneuvers that

ignored their sport's rules, because they had never learned to defend against

them.

[Gollum]

In the martial arts sports one has only a limited choice of legitimate maneuvers, and as a black belt karateka you will certainly have seen every legitimate attack and defense, just as an experienced sports fencer is impossible to surprise with any legitimate attack or parry. However, real combat has no rules and no definitions of legitimate and forbidden maneuvers, everything goes, and an unknown opponent's maneuvers are completely unpredictable. To give an example, my favourite fencing weapon was the rapier, and I soon learned that it was laughably easy to defeat even excellent sports fencers with rather simple maneuvers that ignored their sport's rules, because they had never learned to defend against them.

I fully do agree with you. Because, precisely, I’m not learning the martial art sport. I’m learning a traditional karate. The gojuryu shoreikan. We use every possible technique: blows with open or close hands, feet, knees or elbows, shoulder, ankle and even the head... Strikes at the throat, the eyes, the groin, the joints… A lot of throw and grapple techniques, techniques to twist and break wrists or arms… Etc. That makes our karate very hard and long to learn, but very interesting.

Of course, when we fight together, we do it carefully. But more we are skilled, more we can do it fast and strongly. Sure, it's not exactly like a true combat… No training fight is exactly like a true combat. Even in full contact competitions, K1 or the likes. If it was true combat, about one fighter in two would die… And most others will be disabled for life… There are always rules to avoid accidents.

Having said that, I learnt a lot of techniques to attack and to parry or dodge every possible attack… Of course, I'm not one the best warrior in the world. Not at all. I'm just a nidan practicer (second dan). Which means that I’m still a beginner. Something like 40 to 50% in my combat skills (Brawl, Grapple and Martial art) in BRP terms… But I already know how combat is unpredictable. No technique can be absolutely sure to succeed and things never happen like you want…

Both RQ and GURPS simulate that fact very well.

GURPS with its 1 second turn. You plan what you want to do very precisely, of course, but only for the next second and without knowing in advance what will do your foe: there is no statement phase in GURPS, so, even if you act first, you act without knowing what others will do… Furthermore you are never sure to succeed. You can even score a critical failure which will make you fall down or lose your weapon…

And RQ, with its maneuvers chosen after the roll, which make each warrior change his mind during the 12 second turn.

Combats are a mixture of strategy and chaos. Both GURPS and RQ simulate it well.

Now, to come back to this thread, I would say that RQ uses special effect to do it, that is things which are added after the roll to give the fight more variety. Exactly like special effects are added after the shooting in a movie.

GURPS, to the contrary, introduce this variety before the roll, which makes it more simulationist. You have to choose a precise maneuver for each turn, while RQ make you choose it only if your roll is higher than your opponent’s one.

Which is better? None. GURPS may sound more detailed and precise (which is certainly true: combats rules, with the Martial Arts book, spread on more than 300 pages). But it is sometimes boring to use all these modifiers for every contingency.

Edited August 16, 2012 by Gollum