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A New Direction for Classic Fantasy?


threedeesix

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After picking up CF on Drive-thru, I am sorry to say that I have been having trouble making heads or tails of it. For some reason, I can't parse how character creation works. I also have a hard time seeing the point to the alignment system, but I would probably go without it anyway, but in general I'm having trouble with it.

Do you get any bonuses in the Class Skills to make you want to take them as opposed to others? And how much is it encouraged to mix things up in chargen?

Sorry if I need a good whacking with a clue-by-four on this topic.

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After picking up CF on Drive-thru, I am sorry to say that I have been having trouble making heads or tails of it. For some reason, I can't parse how character creation works. I also have a hard time seeing the point to the alignment system, but I would probably go without it anyway, but in general I'm having trouble with it.

Do you get any bonuses in the Class Skills to make you want to take them as opposed to others? And how much is it encouraged to mix things up in chargen?

Sorry if I need a good whacking with a clue-by-four on this topic.

First of all, make sure to keep your Big Gold Book handy, as CF references it quite often.

The Alignment system is really a method of tracking the overall moral actions of the PCs, which also happens to serve as a scaling power system for certain character classes (look at Clerics, Rangers, Paladins, and Monks). It's to reinforce that the players' actions DO make a difference to their character's development. However, with that said, the Alignment system only goes as far as the GM wants it to. I'm currently running a CF/RQ hybrid campaign based heavily on AD&D, and my players are really trying to stay Good-aligned (when normally at least half of them prefer Neutral or Evil characters). In some cases, the class is what motivates them: 1 is a Ranger and 1 is a cleric of a Good deity. Overall, however, I'd like to think that they're all motivating themselves to continue performing Good actions and remaining Good characters for the purpose of roleplaying. Of course, they don't know that I plan on doing some special stuff with their Alignments when they start getting past 50... :D

As for the Class Skills, there aren't any "universal" bonuses in this edition. However, some classes increase certain skills (which mostly fall into the class skills list) by 1d8 instead of 1d6 for successful EXP rolls. The Fighter with weapons (that includes a "specialized weapon" that increases by 1d10, chosen at creation) and Thief with... er... various "thiefy-type" skills are two such examples. However, I do know that the author's next edition, due out sometime this year, will have more bonuses and niche-making rules. An example is the idea of Prime Requisite ability scores being at 16 or more granting a +10 to the EXP roll for class skills, making it much easier to increase those overall. I've been house-ruling and discussing a lot of those changes (and more) with my own group to reach a compromise where we all truly enjoy the system.

To be honest, you will probably end up house-ruling a lot to better fit your style. I do appreciate how easily AD&D converts into BRP once you look at what Rod has done with CF and start thinking "outside the box." Magic items especially have become much more unique again (after their "standardization" in 3.0/3.5 and 4th Edition, something I still wish never happened).

Hope this helps.

Oh, and Rod, my players did manage to drop a hill giant, 15 bandits, and a werewolf in one battle. Only the NPC got seriously wounded from the giant's crushing hand after managing to climb its back and wail on it for a couple of rounds, but the battle was quite hectic, especially since the party's cleric and dwarf fighter had split off (leaving the three brothers: a fighter, a mage, and a Ranger; a non-combatant non-cleric healer, and a half-elf Fighter/Mage who rolled TOO well on her buffing spells).

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After picking up CF on Drive-thru, I am sorry to say that I have been having trouble making heads or tails of it. For some reason, I can't parse how character creation works. I also have a hard time seeing the point to the alignment system, but I would probably go without it anyway, but in general I'm having trouble with it.

Hi Michael,

Lord Sephleon pretty much hit all that points I would have suggested. I do want to reemphasize his first point however. You really need to understand character generation in the BGB to get the most out of CF as I wrote it as a supplement to it and not as a stand alone book. For the most part it works exactly the same way.

If you have any other questions, feel free to ask. If I can't get an answer to ya in a timely fashion, i'm sure someone will be able to.

Rod

Join my Mythras/RuneQuest 6: Classic Fantasy Yahoo Group at https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/RQCF/info

"D100 - Exactly 5 times better than D20"

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However, I do know that the author's next edition, due out sometime this year, will have more bonuses and niche-making rules. An example is the idea of Prime Requisite ability scores being at 16 or more granting a +10 to the EXP roll for class skills, making it much easier to increase those overall.

Ya... this didn't last. The overall concession with my playtesters was yuk. :) There is a different "less intrusive" system in place that allows "class skills" to improve faster however.

Oh, and Rod, my players did manage to drop a hill giant, 15 bandits, and a werewolf in one battle. Only the NPC got seriously wounded from the giant's crushing hand after managing to climb its back and wail on it for a couple of rounds, but the battle was quite hectic, especially since the party's cleric and dwarf fighter had split off (leaving the three brothers: a fighter, a mage, and a Ranger; a non-combatant non-cleric healer, and a half-elf Fighter/Mage who rolled TOO well on her buffing spells).

Awesome!:tu:

Rod

Join my Mythras/RuneQuest 6: Classic Fantasy Yahoo Group at https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/RQCF/info

"D100 - Exactly 5 times better than D20"

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Ya... this didn't last. The overall concession with my playtesters was yuk. :) There is a different "less intrusive" system in place that allows "class skills" to improve faster however.

Rod

Really? My players keep begging for ways to make it easier to not only succeed at lower skills, but also to make it easier to roll over their higher skills during EXP rolls. I already made a house rule (from my CoC days) giving each category relevant stats for EXP bonuses (like INT + POW for Manipulation skills, and STR + CON for Physical skills), along with a "Category Specialization" chosen at character creation where the character gets additional skill points for the category based on "(Stat 1 + Stat 2) x5" AND all skills in the category get a +1 to increases (minimum of 1, even if the roll to increase is failed). I actually liked the Prime Requisite rule, though I'm thinking of a slight variation:

All class skills have a 5% bonus to the EXP roll vs the skill. If the majority of the character's Prime Requisites are 15 (or 16) or higher, they get an additional 5% bonus.

Why did your playtesters think the rule was "yuk"?

Edited by Lord Sephleon
Silly grammatical mistakes.
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Why did your playtesters think the rule was "yuk"?

They didn't think the bonus was "yuk" just the Prime Requisites idea. As one put it. "The benefit to having high stats should be high stats. I shouldn't be double penalized if I roll low and also lose an experience bonus, and I shouldn't be able to make a rulebook better by taking a black marker to it." =|

I love my playtesters. ;D

Rod

PS - I use the Legend/RQ6 system for skill improvement now. That's 1D4+1% (1D6+1 for a class skills) for a successful skill increase, and 1% for an unsuccessful increase. So your skills always improve at least 1%. Doesn't sound like much, but think of it this way, 10 sessions of missing a skill increase, is still an increase of 10%.

Rod

Join my Mythras/RuneQuest 6: Classic Fantasy Yahoo Group at https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/RQCF/info

"D100 - Exactly 5 times better than D20"

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Although it wouldn't be included in anything because the original is Closed Content, I wonder what a reasonably-potent Hexblade would look like in BRP/CF or another d100 system. When the class first came out, I knew it might not be popular in play but there was a lot of story potential in them. In fact, I quickly started imagining a Hexblade anime series whose anti-hero was falsely accused of killing a King. The King's daughter tried to kill him, so he originally thought to sell her to slavers but they ended up traveling together -- until the real assassin (a rival Hexblade) turned up and started making even more trouble.

Hexblades are anti-social enough to make poor PCs except for a one-on-one game. That doesn't mean I wouldn't like to see one, perhaps pursing the PCs to collect a bounty on them (and skilled enough, and with potent enough probability-molding powers, to be a challenge for the whole party -- and hopefully with some built-in story reason the PCs can't simply kill him to get him out of their hair).

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Sooo ... what's your ETA on the new version? B-)

"Time is an illusion, lunchtime, doubly so."

Ok, I will say this. The manuscript must be finished one year from today, but, barring any unforeseen downfall, will more than likely be done before that. B-)

Rod

Join my Mythras/RuneQuest 6: Classic Fantasy Yahoo Group at https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/RQCF/info

"D100 - Exactly 5 times better than D20"

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Although it wouldn't be included in anything because the original is Closed Content, I wonder what a reasonably-potent Hexblade would look like in BRP/CF or another d100 system. When the class first came out, I knew it might not be popular in play but there was a lot of story potential in them. In fact, I quickly started imagining a Hexblade anime series whose anti-hero was falsely accused of killing a King. The King's daughter tried to kill him, so he originally thought to sell her to slavers but they ended up traveling together -- until the real assassin (a rival Hexblade) turned up and started making even more trouble.

Hexblades are anti-social enough to make poor PCs except for a one-on-one game. That doesn't mean I wouldn't like to see one, perhaps pursing the PCs to collect a bounty on them (and skilled enough, and with potent enough probability-molding powers, to be a challenge for the whole party -- and hopefully with some built-in story reason the PCs can't simply kill him to get him out of their hair).

Well, for the most part, Classic Fantasy is emulating 1st ed. AD&D with a smattering of 2nd ed thrown in for good measure. So there will be no "official" Hexblade. But that shouldn't stop anyone familiar with the system from creating their own rules for them.

I had to look them up as I'm not really up to date on D&D 3.5 and on. They do look cool.

Rod

Join my Mythras/RuneQuest 6: Classic Fantasy Yahoo Group at https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/RQCF/info

"D100 - Exactly 5 times better than D20"

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Quick other question: what's a rational way to create a higher-level party for when you want to start with a more challenging set of adventures (and won't have time for them to build up their skill set naturally). The only thing I can think of is to build the starting character and then add appropriate experience awards (one at each D&D level break) to improve the character.

But the fundamental differences between the two systems ought to come into play too. No BRP character, however talented or experienced, can survive being hit full-on by dragon breath, while a D&D character of high enough level theoretically could. This alters adventure planning -- dragon-slaying becomes a much more challenging endeavor, and a group of 5-6 superior PCs is not going to be able to stare down a horde of hundreds of ticked-off orcs.

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Yeah, Hexblades were a great concept, but I felt like they fell short (compared to the other base classes) after around 9th or 10th level. They didn't scale all that well, especially after the release of the stupid PHB2 and the Duskblade. Hell, even an Eldritch Knight built from a Ftr/Wiz combo that focused on debuffs was a technically stronger build once you got started on the prestige class.

Aaaaaaaand I gotta start thinking about that stuff... I don't want to go back to the level-based build mentality. Ugh.

Quick other question: what's a rational way to create a higher-level party for when you want to start with a more challenging set of adventures (and won't have time for them to build up their skill set naturally). The only thing I can think of is to build the starting character and then add appropriate experience awards (one at each D&D level break) to improve the character.

What I've been doing with my PCs who decide to change characters for whatever reason (retirement, death, bored of the character, etc.) is having new characters created as normal, then they get 8 Experience Checks per past session that they can place on any skill they'd like. Obviously, they couldn't "double up" checks from the same set, but if, for example, a character came in on the seventh session, he would have 6 sets of eight checks, so any skill could feasibly end up with 6 rolls. Doesn't help if you don't have any sessions behind you and want to start with more advanced characters, but maybe it could help brainstorm something. :)

But the fundamental differences between the two systems ought to come into play too. No BRP character, however talented or experienced, can survive being hit full-on by dragon breath, while a D&D character of high enough level theoretically could. This alters adventure planning -- dragon-slaying becomes a much more challenging endeavor, and a group of 5-6 superior PCs is not going to be able to stare down a horde of hundreds of ticked-off orcs.

Exactly why I love BRP. I love my players and have gamed with them for almost 20 years, but D&D and its scaling hit points really did change how people think in combat (even subconsciously). With BRP, all it takes is one good hit from a giant's club to squish Mr. Fighter. That's why Mr. Fighter's Dodge skill (or Parry skill, if he carries a nigh-unbreakable weapon/shield or just carries THAT many of them) should be up to par. Also, BRP does reward those who bother with high stats and/or skills; the way Area Effect spells are handled is awesome with the use of armor to take some damage, Agility rolls for half damage or Dodge rolls for no damage. No more of that "only rogues and monks can get truly avoid AoE blasts; all others are S-O-L."

Speaking of dragonbreath: my players are about to have a skirmish with an old black dragon who just woke from a century-long nap due to plot. They're not ready for it yet, so they'll have a few escape options, but it's going to be interesting to see how confident they might get... :)

Edited by Lord Sephleon
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Exactly why I love BRP. I love my players and have gamed with them for almost 20 years, but D&D and its scaling hit points really did change how people think in combat (even subconsciously). With BRP, all it takes is one good hit from a giant's club to squish Mr. Fighter. That's why Mr. Fighter's Dodge skill (or Parry skill, if he carries a nigh-unbreakable weapon/shield or just carries THAT many of them) should be up to par. Also, BRP does reward those who bother with high stats and/or skills; the way Area Effect spells are handled is awesome with the use of armor to take some damage, Agility rolls for half damage or Dodge rolls for no damage. No more of that "only rogues and monks can get truly avoid AoE blasts; all others are S-O-L."

D&D's influence on video games is so profound that even before 4e's open Warcraft emulation it played like one a lot of the time.The BRP mindset is different, especially with hit locations, because every blow you take has potential consequences. You can't use the fighter as a "meat shield" to protect the spellcasters anymore. The clerics and healers will have to ration their POW carefully -- which means that in a big fight PCs may have to endure reduced effectiveness because of their injuries for quite some time. IF you take one hit in the arm, even a relatively minor one, you sure don't want to get hit in that arm again....

Speaking of dragonbreath: my players are about to have a skirmish with an old black dragon who just woke from a century-long nap due to plot. They're not ready for it yet, so they'll have a few escape options, but it's going to be interesting to see how confident they might get... :)

I wonder if roleplaying, depending on how intelligent the dragon is, will do the job. Any way they can somehow convince the dragon not to go along with whatever the bad guys are up to? Bargain with him by offering him something he might want?

The hoary cliche (probably being encouraged by the current Hobbit movie) of going out to hunt a dragon simply to kill it somehow and steal all its goodies becomes difficult to pull off in BRP. If you have to deal with a dragon it becomes much more difficult when simply slaying it and looting the hoard ceases to be the best option. To kill a dragon might well be beyond a party of adventurers -- it could well take an army, possibly a large one, that is willing to take heavy losses in the attempt.

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D&D's influence on video games is so profound that even before 4e's open Warcraft emulation it played like one a lot of the time.The BRP mindset is different, especially with hit locations, because every blow you take has potential consequences. You can't use the fighter as a "meat shield" to protect the spellcasters anymore. The clerics and healers will have to ration their POW carefully -- which means that in a big fight PCs may have to endure reduced effectiveness because of their injuries for quite some time. IF you take one hit in the arm, even a relatively minor one, you sure don't want to get hit in that arm again....

Tell me about it. I practically cried when I tried out a Bard in 4th Edition. Fighters can still be meatshields, though, given strong enough armor and good all-around defensive skills. The thing about BRP is that it reminds players that there is more than just "Succeed at hitting target;" the target doesn't just have a passive Target Number/DC/AC/whatever anymore. But yeah, clerics and healers have to be tactical in their healing, not just throw Cures around for paper cuts and grazes.

I will say, however, that PCs can be pretty durable; the group's ranger took a total of 8 specials from crossbows in one battle (I rolled way too well that battle, but it WAS an ambush, so it made sense). The cleric managed to keep him up until another PC (the ranger's own younger brother) managed to Botch so badly he Criticaled him in the back, dropping him to -1 General HP. If not for the party's non-combat First Aid NPC pulling him out of harms way and healing him 3 points, he would definitely have died that battle.

I wonder if roleplaying, depending on how intelligent the dragon is, will do the job. Any way they can somehow convince the dragon not to go along with whatever the bad guys are up to? Bargain with him by offering him something he might want?

Nah, this meeting is sort of "destined." Fate and prophecy play a huge role in my campaign (with the PCs having special "marks" that actually removes them somewhat from Fate's threads). There's a bit of prophecy they will learn after the skirmish that mentions their meeting with the Black (among other things). It's the main clue that they have the opportunity to fulfill the prophecy as its main players... or to avoid it due to their marks. One path definitely makes things easier when dealing with the real bad guys, whereas the other...

Bargaining with the dragon isn't always a bad idea so long as one is careful. And they're great enough roleplayers that, at the very worst, I suspect they'll only have to sacrifice ONE person to escape.

To kill a dragon might well be beyond a party of adventurers -- it could well take an army, possibly a large one, that is willing to take heavy losses in the attempt.

Whoa... Massive deja-vu with Lodoss War flashbacks for some reason. Not even a direct quote from it, but it just kinda hit me.

Well, a party that prepares like Batman and gets the jump on a dragon may be able to take it down. "Red dragon, you say? Fire Resist EVERYTHING, please. And gear up with heavy protective armor/jewelry. Thanks."

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The hoary cliche (probably being encouraged by the current Hobbit movie) of going out to hunt a dragon simply to kill it somehow and steal all its goodies becomes difficult to pull off in BRP. If you have to deal with a dragon it becomes much more difficult when simply slaying it and looting the hoard ceases to be the best option. To kill a dragon might well be beyond a party of adventurers -- it could well take an army, possibly a large one, that is willing to take heavy losses in the attempt.

In RQ, we have killed several dragons in the past. Of course, it depends on the dragon and the strength of the party, but someone who is magicked up can fairly easily kill a normal dragon (Critical in the head doing over 30 points of damage tends to do the trick). Don't forget that a big, strong human with a greatsword could do 22 points of damage without magic, add in Truesword and Bladesharp and you easily get above 30. The trick is getting into a position where the dragon cannot breathe on you, dropping on its head, attacking from behind/above and getting lucky, because as soon as it is engaged it will move into a better position.

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I got to visit the Yahoogroup today and managed to get my hands on the Creatures List it links to, download its contents into Excel, and voila! Critters galore!

I tried something right away, using copy-and-paste. There's a Dire Shark, and I wanted to see what I had to do to turn it into a Flying Shark. I added a Fly movement type so not it flies as fast as it can swim. And although I'm pretty happy with that idea (no points to worry about, at least not yet) I am bothered by Hit Locations for it -- because obviously it will be taking a lot of Called Shots to the wings.

I resisted the temptation to put a Magic Missile generator on its head.

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I got to visit the Yahoogroup today and managed to get my hands on the Creatures List it links to, download its contents into Excel, and voila! Critters galore!

I tried something right away, using copy-and-paste. There's a Dire Shark, and I wanted to see what I had to do to turn it into a Flying Shark. I added a Fly movement type so not it flies as fast as it can swim. And although I'm pretty happy with that idea (no points to worry about, at least not yet) I am bothered by Hit Locations for it -- because obviously it will be taking a lot of Called Shots to the wings.

I resisted the temptation to put a Magic Missile generator on its head.

I would just use the normal "shark" hit location table. However unless the fins are enlarged, then I would assume that it is flying by magical means and not through its own muscle power. So I would have hits to its fins only modify its DEX and/or speed, figuring it only uses them for course corrections and changes in velocity.

That way, if the players do enough damage to its fins it would simply retreat to lick its wounds and not be easily knocked from the sky.

Just an idea.

Rod

PS - that would be a "fricken" magic-missile generator in the head.

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"D100 - Exactly 5 times better than D20"

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You could have the flying sharks be mere heralds for a shark god (Megalodon-ish?) and served by amphibious shark-men. Wherever the PCs look -- on land, sea. or air -- they'll be confronted by a toothy avatar of the deity until they figure out how to placate it or beat it.

I wonder if the Shark God can pluck dragons out of the air and eat them. (And what happens when another creature eats a dragon? Does the magic of the beast do something to the beast consuming it?)

What I would really benefit from is a BRP-centered Excel sheet that enables me to add new campaign-related skills, use all the power systems in the core book (including psychic abilities and superpowers) including adding original spells, and alter the number of dice rolled in attributes to make way for a greater variety of creatures and beings. I'd also like it to calculate the core things that need to be calculated, from hit points and damage bonuses to base skill levels, and enable me to improvement skill checks to build more experienced characters if I want a degree of randomness.

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After a few years of having Ben Monroe recommend it, I just picked up a copy of CF (Half Price Books) and reading over coffee. I can see how I might use it.

Best line: "Sure, I worked on them for months and months, but whatever." Nearly snorted my coffee ...

Hehe, thanks. I do get a few comments on that line. ;D

Rod

Join my Mythras/RuneQuest 6: Classic Fantasy Yahoo Group at https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/RQCF/info

"D100 - Exactly 5 times better than D20"

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Looks like a job for a Dimetrodon!

(Now just watch that reference fly merrily over everyone's head. WHEEEE!)

Well, I know the 1974 series "Land of the Lost" had a Dimetrodon named Torchy that could breath fire.

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