Shelfjacked or "Dude! Where's my game?"

[Heimdallsgothi]

The problem still comes down to most others systems do not have the resources and push that D&D and Pathfinder seem to have.

Pathfinder certainly didn't start off as a major player, they built their company proving others were doing it wrong.

Adventure paths giving pre-published campaigns for GM's, there are still many companies who view modules as a money loser. For most this is true, for Paizo, well written/planned modules are a cash cow. I don't play pathfinder, yet I subscribe to the AP line.

They saw a market for continuing the 3.5 game line, and they have effectively forced WOTC into abandoning 4th ED and developing 5th ed, because if they don't, they can, and will lose their entire market.

Paizo is based of strong writing, excellent production values, interaction with their fans.

Even if 5th ed is a strong game, WOTC's customer service is garbage, the interaction is minimal, the production values have been slipping (see editing/errata)

[SDLeary]

"Why on Earth do you think that gaining visibility on the shelves - as opposed to visibility on the Internet - is the right way to attract new players?"

If no one had noticed, sales of PDFs have surpassed sales of physical books at Amazon.com this year. You can draw your own conclusions. I will keep all of the Alephtar products on store shelves for as long as said shelves exist, with the help of Angus and Dom for marketing, but my current plans include Alephtar Games outliving brick and mortar game shops.

For example. FLGS here are trying to actively stoke the fire that keeps the hobby/industry going. They not only support regional conventions, as they have for ages, but run their own mini-cons, tourneys, etc. This brings large numbers of people into the stores, which in turn gets attention from passers by as to why there are so many people in there. They come in and take a look. Often, they come in with their kids and take a look. They start at the front of the store, which has children's games and board games, but generally end up looking all the way around the store, including mini's and RPGs. Granted, not many new players are generated this way, but it is exposure that would not be there if books were not on the shelves.

This also helps with existing game players who might pick up a book for some reason and thumb thru it, or sit in one of the chairs and read the a chapter or two. Samples online are generally not that extensive, and thus its not as easy to get a sense of a system that might be new to you.

SDLeary

[Atgxtg]

Good point. The FLGSs that I've seen all serve as a sort of "watering hole" for gamers to mett up, interact, post requests for GMs and players, discuss the hobby, and even run games in the store. Most of the people I've gamed with have been people I met in a FLGS. And thoe ones who got into RQ, Strombringer, CoC, and even BRP did so becuase somone else who was playing at the FLGS talked them into it.

Nobody I know said, "What's this? Call of Cat-Hula? That looks interesting. I wonder what it is about? I think I'll dump $20 to find out."

Instead if was more like: "Hey Jeff, you goota check out Call of Kawhatiz. Uh, Kalula or some such. Anyway, forget the name. It's a cool horror RPG with these wacked out monsters and magic and stuff. We played it last night, and Fred got eaten by a fish guy. We're playing it again tonight. You should try it."

[nclarke]

In the spirit of trying to get something together that lists all the current D100/BRP based games I threw together a list of ones I could remember and popped it into the Downloads section.

Corrections etc. welcome.

Nigel

[draven]

I agree with this most people are exposed to a new game from someone that they know that plays the game. I have no idea what a FLGS is and i am rather sure there are none near where I live. All of the roleplayers I know were gotten into the hobby from other people. Many of the ones I know and play with were gotten into by myself.

[Atgxtg]

FLGS=Friendly Local Gaming Store.

Tradtionally it's a place that sells RPGs, usually along with comic books and other collectibles. It often serves as a meeting place and contact place for gamers.

[draven]

Yea none of those here. There was one a few years ago they were not that friendly but they had RPG products. But for 5 to 10 years there has been nothing like that here.

[seneschal]

Today, at the local game shop furthest from my house, I saw a lone, softbound copy of RuneQuest 6. Gorgeous. But $62? Scary! Of course, the current Doctor Who game ran about the same price. But most other RPG titles were $20-$30. No other D100 games seen, not even supplements, but I did spot a single copy of Tunnels & Trolls, a slim softback for $20. How old school is that?

Oh, I also saw Vikings for Mongoose RuneQuest II.

Edited October 20, 2012 by seneschal

[Atgxtg]

$62! That is scary.

The current Doctor Who game is a boxed set of full color glossy page books, and a licensed product so there is some justification for it's high price.

[RosenMcStern]

Yeah, we old grognards will surely buy that little gem even if it is softcover at the same price of a hardcover. But a newbie?

[rust]

$62! That is scary.

It is even more scary over here, where the price tag in my favourite online

shop (no FLGS anywhere near me) is 50.95 Euro, about 67 USD.

[Atgxtg]

Yeah, we old grognards will surely buy that little gem even if it is softcover at the same price of a hardcover. But a newbie?

Good point. We all know that RQ/BRP needs to attract new players to stay alive, yet a $62+ price tag is not very attractive.

I'd say it makes the micro-lite RQ concept more justifiable. People who would be hesitant to spend $62 on the full game, might spend $10 on an intro set of rules.

[seneschal]

Hook 'em with BRP Quick-Start Edition and the Mongoose RQ I SRD, then sloooooowly convert to VI? Mechanically it would work, but the entry level materials lack the visual color pop and sizzle that attracts today's younger gamers.

I have to say that RQ 6's color cover was a lot more attractive than the plain blue covers of the Mongoose RQ II material I've spotted in the last several months. The Mongoose RQ I covers were certainly colorful, but they didn't really indicate what the game was about.

If I'd purchased RQ 6 I'd have ended up in a Call of Cthulhu campaign, because my wife would have killed me.

Edited October 20, 2012 by seneschal

[Thalaba]

No other D100 games seen, not even supplements]

Did you ask them why not?

but I did spot a single copy of Tunnels & Trolls, a slim softback for $20. How old school is that?

Only slightly more old-school than seeing a copy of RQ. Did you also see the AD&D reprints?

Oh, I also saw Vikings for Mongoose RuneQuest II.

That's a good product, by the way.

[Atgxtg]

Did you ask them why not?

I have asked stores why not, and have done so for years. The answers I've gotten are as follows:

1) D&D sells, D100 does not- at least not to the same extent.

2) MRQ ruined it for D100.

3) They never heard of D100, and don't know enough about it to risk giving it shelfspace.

4) The distributor whom they order from doesn't carry it (typical of mainstream stores that sell a little RPG stuff)

5) It has such a small fanbase that it's not worth the bother.

Now before somebody says something like "If they wouldn't order or stock D100 products, I'd take my business elsewhere!", I'll say, so what. We are such a small segment of a small and dwindling hobby group that even if we all boycotted stores that refused to sell D100 products, the stores wouldn't notice a difference. Now most bookstores, especially stores that stock RPG products will special order an RPG book for a customer, but in this day and age it is usually easier, cheaper, and faster to just go on-line and order it yourself. And you have a better chance of winding up with what you wanted. Since the average RPGer has more knowledge of the products that the average sales clerk or manager, they are much more likely to get the right thing if they order it themselves.

[seneschal]

"Only slightly more old-school than seeing a copy of RQ. Did you also see the AD&D reprints?"

No need for reprints. They have a whole section of "obsolete" D&D materials for sale at 50% off.

What they did have was lots of D&D and Pathfinder (including Goodman Games' Dungeon Crawl Classics), a surprising amount of Palladium stuff, some World of Darkness, two Doctor Who sets (different editions) and the aliens supplement, some Hero System, GURPS, and Savage Worlds materials (GURPS core books only, others supplements only). In the odds and ends department there was the aforementioned T&T, a lone copy of the Mongoose Traveller core book, Marvel Superhero Roleplaying, Supers!, Mutants & Masterminds, and probably some stray supplements for other games that escaped my notice.

As I may have mentioned before, the other game store closer to my home carries some Call of Cthulhu supplements but not the Big Gold Book (since the initial release) or the core book since it sold out. Again, mostly D&D, Pathfinder, and World of Darkness, with a smattering of Mongoose titles, Hero and Savage Worlds supplements, and a bunch of odds and ends, many of which are really old (dusty but not discounted). Their main focus is collectible card games and miniatures wargaming, and I've noticed that their RPG shelves have thinned out considerably over the past couple years and have never been completely refilled. When a new RPG title comes out, game or supplement, they carry it for a while but probably won't restock it once it sells out. It's got a couple months to prove itself, or its history. They periodically have a clearance table for onesy-twosey books or boxed games (including board games and tactical war games). If a product appears there, it's unlikely to be ordered ever again.

[Baron]

My father, and grandfather, were both store-owners. And that's the way they handled stock, too. If it didn't sell in a few weeks, mark it down until it's all gone and clear the space for stuff that moves.

[SDLeary]

Another reason, often unmentioned by game store people, is that distributors tend to have minimum orders. So if they are forced to buy five of something, and they have only had one person inquiring about the product, they will be UNLIKELY to order it. They don't want to have to sit on inventory that they do not think will sell. In fact, here in the States, I think they pay tax on their inventories at the end of year. So a store never wants inventory that is just going to sit, or that they think is just going to sit.

The only way to convince them otherwise is to go into the stores, and continually ask for the product.

SDLeary

[Toadmaster]

Not really sure why RQ6's price is such a shock, even though softback it is a quality printing with good paper, decent B&W artwork and a fairly hefty size game. Yes a bit more than the average these days but not by a lot. Smaller games just don't have the print runs to compete with hardback full color books. I know that has been a big push in recent years but it doesn't seem to be the magic bullet that many seem to think it is.

I also wonder sometimes when people complain about the quality of printing / artwork if they remember the old days with news print books.

I rarely find much more that CCGs and d20 at most game stores these days, maybe one or two others that are hot at the time. I think there are just too many games out there these days for a store to carry more than a handful. Beyond asking them to order a game for you, how many are trying to get a game going in stores that have gaming space? For the smaller games this is probably the only way to raise visibility, by converting players one at a time.

As some others have mentioned I'd guess the majority of gamers were introduced to the games they play by a friend or gaming group. While not so uncommon on internet RPG sites, the gamer who collects one game after another is probably something of a rarity. Those that do are probably quite able to go online and find out about all these smaller game companies.

Personally I'm quite happy to let D&D / Pathfinder carry the heavy load (and risk) of bringing in new gamers, then slowly convert those interested in something different, to other games.

[Atgxtg]

I remember the old "News Print" books. Well, actually what I remember is better paper than newsprint, but formated on a typewrite or dot matrix printer, with minimal (or neon-exisrtent) artwork of generally poor quality. But the rules were generally god and complete, with a much lower sticker price.

These days most games have nice art and a lot of fluff, but rules that are still in the alpha test stage, and that cover minimal ground so that everything can be spun off into it's own supplement. One thing I think we all need to give Chaosium and Jason credit for about BRP is that there is a LOT of stuff in the big gold book.

I like Doctor Who, and thing Cublic 7's RPG is a decent RPG with semi-solid game mechanics, but I also think that it could have easily been condensed into one or two books and 1/3rd the price tag, if not for all the glossy full color art. Art that, for the most part, doesn't add to the rules or game play, but just look pretty. But at least it does have a good enough system underneath to be a working RPG. Some "pretty" games don't even have that.

I wish more companies spent as much time and effort of their rule systems as they seem to spend on art and layout.

Edited October 22, 2012 by Atgxtg

[Toadmaster]

Palladium had many books that were essentially cheap comic books, and I have several supplements for RECON that were nothing more than small newspapers. Somewhere I have a game that came in a 3 ring binder too. The RECON stuff was actually pretty good, Palladium... well different tastes and all that.

Nice artwork and such is, well nice but I am in complete agreement that a pretty game with bad rules is still a bad game.

[Baron]

I'd have to really want a game to pay $60 for the book. And I'd expect it to be hardcover for that price. But that's just me.

[Atgxtg]

Palladium had many books that were essentially cheap comic books,

The original MECHANIODS series. Good setting, and good (K. Siembeda) art. Okay rules. IMO better than the latter version (IMO Palladium stuff went downhill once they included SDC). And yes, it was on newsprint. Mechanodis was NOT what I was thinking about when I was taking about a pretty game with bad rules.

and I have several supplements for RECON that were nothing more than small newspapers. Somewhere I have a game that came in a 3 ring binder too. The RECON stuff was actually pretty good, Palladium... well different tastes and all that.

Early Palladium was kinda of cross between old RQ and old D&D. It was a level/increasing HP game, but it used skills, and active defense (parry), but it also limited the HP progression to 1D6 per level. Once they added SCD, and ways to up your HP to D&D levels, the system became less interesting for me.

Nice artwork and such is, well nice but I am in complete agreement that a pretty game with bad rules is still a bad game.

Nice artwork adds to a game, but you have to have a good game to begin with., When you are playing, you can't just sit there and look at the pretty pictures. And these days, GMs have the ability to find a print art that they need for the game. A lot of those pretty games are just like coffee table books, nice to look at but nothing in them.

Those old cheap looking RPGs were usually a lot of fun to play.

I bet there is still a market for a not so pretty, but a fun PDF in the $5-$10 range. I think that a trimmed down BRP/RQ type game along the lines of Metagaming's The Fantasy Trip with some good cheap adventures could probably do very well.

[Atgxtg]

I'd have to really want a game to pay $60 for the book. And I'd expect it to be hardcover for that price. But that's just me.

It's NOT just you. I think that is the norm. At $20-25 people might "take a chance" on something, but at $60 they want to be sure it is something they want to buy BEFORE they buy it.

[seneschal]

At $36-$45, Mouse Guard sort of falls into that category, especially if you go for the boxed set rather than the hardback book. A gorgeous book, written with newbies in mind, but after several months I'm still trying to wade through it. I like the setting but I don't fully grasp the system yet, despite the endless repetition. I splurged on vacation. Actually, I was attracted by the much cheaper Atomic Highway, but my wife indicated that Mouse Guard was something she might actually play with me. She then gave only a cursory glance at the Mouse Guard graphic novels that I got from the library. (To be fair, she read the much shorter Black Axe installment I got at the game shop mentioned above.)

But yeah, $15-$25, take a chance. $30-$40, an established line you already enjoy or a product you've thoroughly researched. $40+, birthday or Christmas present only, if you can get a relative to buy it for you.

By the way, Dark City Games' Legends of the Ancient World, a re-creation of The Fantasy Trip, is free, and its modules are relatively cheap. But a similarly inexpensive "action pack" for BRP might be a useful entry level product -- the Quick-Start Edition plus a sample setting and a brief adventure or two. Put out an "action pack" for several genres. If you could price them at $8-$16 and still make money it might be a way to draw new players.