Shelfjacked or "Dude! Where's my game?"

[Atgxtg]

Gaming with younger players can be surprising. I wrote up a simplified Star Wars RPG for a friends 6 year old daughter. One of the surprises was that since she was very fond of R2-D2, she would be somewhat protective of the droid in play, and even started using tactical thinking so that R2 would be out of range of any locked containers to avoid the risk of R2 getting caught in the blast of am EMP ("Droid Popper") grenade. Tactical thinking that that the girl's older and far more experienced father does not seem capable of.

[Baron]

In Star Wars d6 my daughter (now 10 yrs old) has played an ewok, and an R2 unit. She is often quite thoughtful in her actions. In her first rpg session (a few years back), a game of Fairy's Tale, she was extremely careful to come up with a non-violent solution to the scenario. I was a very proud dad.

[Chaot]

Add to this the difficulty of attracting new players in general, regardless of the game. In the '70s and '80s I was playing with my high school and then college peers, who have now scattered to the four winds. Imagine me trying to attract newbies to my campaign at the local game shop (or library), potential players possibly decades younger than myself. What are Mom and Dad going to think when this 50-something-year-old guy approaches their 11-17-year-old son or daughter (who came in to buy Magic the Gathering cards) with the line: "Psssst! Hey kid. Ya wanna play RuneQuest?" [insert disturbing leer]

See, for me the enemy is time. I'm hovering somewhere around thirty five, am married and have two children. If I approach one of my non roleplaying peers, they are usually very interested in trying out a game. The tricky part is making time to roleplay that works with everyone else schedule and where it falls on the priority list of obligatory activities. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.

As far as the next generation goes, I enjoy that as well. My daughter and my niece have a great time when we break out the dice. It's a rare occasion, but man do they enjoy a trip to Buffalo Castle.

[seneschal]

Time and energy are factors. I work nights. Saturdays are the only time I've had enough sleep to be coherent, and there are many other activities that compete with gaming (such as fixing meals, getting laundry done, etc.). Even playing a board game is a rarity, much less an RPG that involves a lot of thought and creativity.

My kids have played some: a couple sessions each of Mazes and Minotaurs and the Buck Rogers Adventure Game, one or two sessions of Mini Six. Part of the way I ran into BRP was that I was looking for a system they could understand and enjoy. But I haven't been able to get a sustainable campaign going. Plans for a Narnia outing, Mouse Guard, and a haunted house venture haven't panned out yet.

[Atgxtg]

I think we all face many of the same hurdles to gaming:

1) We have other responsibilities that limit when we can game.

2) So do our fellow gamers, so it is difficult to juggle everyones schedule to find a time when they can all game together.

3) There are fewer newbies taking up gaming.

4) It is harder to find what players that do exist in your local area, thanks to the decline of the FLGS.

5) The majority of the newer players are not familiar with the older game systems, and so aren't interested in them - which makes it harder to recruit them.

6) The age/culture gap can make it difficult to form mixed groups of old and new gamers.

7) All of the above becomes about ten times worse if you are interested in a RPG other than D&D 4E, D&D 3.5E/Pathfinder, or World of Darkness.

8) We are more hesitant to pay the higher prices for RPG products when we don't know if we can scrounge up a group to play them.

9) Even when we can do #8, we don't like having to buy several such products before we can play the game.

[SDLeary]

For quick games when time is an issue and we want to get our fantasy on, buddies and I move to WotCs Ravenloft and Tales of Ashardalon. This gives us a quick fix, and one of the buddies kids (9) has a blast. Now I will admit not much role-playing in these games, but still fun!

SDLeary

[Atgxtg]

Quick games that were easy to understand is why I came up with that trimmed down system for a kiddie RPG. I turned everything into a roll for the PCs, since kids don't want to set there and have their fate be decided by the GM. So rather than rolling attacks for the bad guys, results were tied to the player's defense rolls. Being a simple RPG, I just used the difference between the rolls to determine the outcome and the severity of the effect.

A bit of irony about it was that I found that the trimmed down system was starting to appeal to me and some of the other experienced gamers. It was easy enough to grasp, let flexible enough to do a lot with it.Linking the effect to the degree of difference made things like partial parries or spending points to improve die rolls worthwhile, since the player always got something for the trouble -even a "failed" parry soaked up a couple of points of damage.

[Toadmaster]

I should have picked my words better. I ran Tunnels & Trolls to introduce my wife and son to gaming and she ran some Pathfinder games for him and some of his friends. That was actually fun, but not the same experience as playing with a group of adults.

[TheHistorian]

Columbia might still be around, but since N. Robin Crossby passed away, who cares.

Well, there are a few of us... Harn is still developed by both Columbia and Kelestia Productions. And lythia.com is possibly the highest quality site for fan produced material that I know of; the good free material there alone could supply years of adventuring.

Of course, Columbia has a distinct advantage vs. the other companies that were mentioned - they make a ton more money from their wargames than they ever have/will from Harn. We'd love to see them make a push to get back on store shelves with Harn, but them seem to be content to have their few hundred subscribers (plus some additional sales of course) and produce material slowly.

[Gollum]

Well, there are a few of us... Harn is still developed by both Columbia and Kelestia Productions. And lythia.com is possibly the highest quality site for fan produced material that I know of; the good free material there alone could supply years of adventuring.

Of course, Columbia has a distinct advantage vs. the other companies that were mentioned - they make a ton more money from their wargames than they ever have/will from Harn. We'd love to see them make a push to get back on store shelves with Harn, but them seem to be content to have their few hundred subscribers (plus some additional sales of course) and produce material slowly.

The problem is exactly the same for every role playing games.

Steve Jackson Games have for instance exactly the same problem with GURPS. They published less and less true books, more and more pdf... And GURPS is still on the market thanks to Munchkins and their other little board or dice games... Other wise, it would have disappeared.

Players who likes pen and paper role playing games are older and older now (youngers like MMORPG or computer games). Furthermore most of those who like pen and paper role playing games buy them on Internet: it's quicker and you can find exactly what you want. On shelves of true shops, there is often only the books that nobody wants and which are left here for years...

I really believe that the futur of role playing games is in PDF and print on demand now.

[Atgxtg]

The problem is exactly the same for every role playing games.

Not really. THe big companies can print and distribute things much more easily.

Players who likes pen and paper role playing games are older and older now (youngers like MMORPG or computer games). Furthermore most of those who like pen and paper role playing games buy them on Internet: it's quicker and you can find exactly what you want. On shelves of true shops, there is often only the books that nobody wants and which are left here for years...

Yup. And most of the "new" people in the hobby are brought in by older gamers, rather than gravitating to the hobby on their own.

I really believe that the futur of role playing games is in PDF and print on demand now.

I don't. I believe the future is computer gaming. For better or worse.

PDF and Print of Demand might sell some books, but mostly for people who want to READ a book, not to PLAY it. I think for PDF to be successful the costs are going to have to come down. Way down. It costs a lot more to buy a PDF and print it then it does to buy a hardcopy. Until that changes PDFs won't be the future. RPGs are about the only thing that get more expsensive if you download them. With music, video and games, it's the other way around.

[SDLeary]

PDF and Print of Demand might sell some books, but mostly for people who want to READ a book, not to PLAY it. I think for PDF to be successful the costs are going to have to come down. Way down. It costs a lot more to buy a PDF and print it then it does to buy a hardcopy. Until that changes PDFs won't be the future. RPGs are about the only thing that get more expsensive if you download them. With music, video and games, it's the other way around.

And that won't happen. Printing an RPG is generally NOT the biggest expense in game design, its the Art and Layout. Thus prices can't come down too much.

What you experience when you print a single copy is exactly what a publisher faces when they look at the price schedule of a printer and have to decide if they only print 1000 copies at a higher price so that they don't get stuck with much leftover if the game doesn't do well, or if they go for 5000 copies to get a more discounted price so that they can lower the price per unit. Fewer prints, more associated costs. This is even more the case if the publisher uses a quality offset house rather than a toner/laser based house.

SDLeary

[Atgxtg]

And that won't happen. Printing an RPG is generally NOT the biggest expense in game design, its the Art and Layout. Thus prices can't come down too much.

THat not what companies have been saying for years. It's been my understanding that printing accounts for about 50% of the cost, and why Mongosse went to the trouble of setting up thier own print shop

What you experience when you print a single copy is exactly what a publisher faces when they look at the price schedule of a printer and have to decide if they only print 1000 copies at a higher price so that they don't get stuck with much leftover if the game doesn't do well, or if they go for 5000 copies to get a more discounted price so that they can lower the price per unit. Fewer prints, more associated costs. This is even more the case if the publisher uses a quality offset house rather than a toner/laser based house.

Yes, but it is what kills PDFs. In most cases you need a hardcopy to play. And printing a PDF generally costs more than buying a hardcopy. Tablet PCs haven't quite reached the point where they are a reasonable alternative. They arew getting there, but at present, a psychical book is easy to pick up and flip through than an acrobat reader. Most gaming books are not formatted properly for a screen. They need to make it easier to navigate, and read on a tablet (or laptop). One day companies will start writing PDFs designed to be read on a screen rather than printed out. THen they will take advantage of the computer's capabilities.

I suspect that one day the printing costs for an automated printer that prints PDF from a flash drive will become a bit more competitively priced.

[Gollum]

I fully do agree with the fact that PDF prices have to be reduced to attract new customers... But, actually, they are quite cheap. At least, as soon as you buy them during promotional offers rather than at full price. They really become interesting then. I bought some Cortex supplements for less than $10 for instance.

And about the printing, you precisely don't have to print each whole book. With tablet PC, Eepc, smart phones, etc., there are a lot of ways to read PDF everywhere (and its even far much easier to bring all your favorite books with you than if it was true books!).

Furthermore, once you read everything in one book, you don't need all that to play. So you just have to print the character sheets, some other forms, important tables, lists of equipment, and that's all. It's not very expensive and you end with something more easy to carry with you.

And for those who really insist to have a book written on paper, the improvement of technology allows print on demand products to be almost as fine as a book published by an editor now.

[Atgxtg]

I fully do agree with the fact that PDF prices have to be reduced to attract new customers... But, actually, they are quite cheap.

THe PDFs are cheap, it's getting them printed that costs.

And about the printing, you precisely don't have to print each whole book. With tablet PC, Eepc, smart phones, etc., there are a lot of ways to read PDF everywhere (and its even far much easier to bring all your favorite books with you than if it was true books!).

To read yes, but not to play with. Generally, to play with most people find a hardcopy to be invaluable. A hardcopy is lighter, doesn't need to be turned on, plugged in or charged, can dispalce an entire page at once at a legible size, can displace two full sized pages at the same time, is faster to flip through, and doesn't give the owner a heart attack in it gets dropped, stepped on, or has soda spilled on it.

Furthermore, once you read everything in one book, you don't need all that to play. So you just have to print the character sheets, some other forms, important tables, lists of equipment, and that's all. It's not very expensive and you end with something more easy to carry with you.

Unitl you need to look something up. In play there are times when GMs and players need to look up a specific rule, spell, or some such and that is where a hardcopy tends to be faster and more convenient. Yes, it is changing, but it hasn't gotten to the point where tables are better yet.

And for those who really insist to have a book written on paper, the improvement of technology allows print on demand products to be almost as fine as a book published by an editor now.

Almost, not counting shipping. But it's still cheaper to buy a hardcopy. In a few years it might balance out. Right now, the best option, IMO is when companies bundle the PDF with the hardcopy. That's the best of both words. You get a PDF to read now, and a hardcopy in a couple of weeks. Then you can print the stuff you need, but still have the reference book.

[Baron]

Agree with Atgxtg on all counts. Except the statement that PDF's are cheap. For an intangible, they are not cheap at all.

[seneschal]

"and doesn't give the owner a heart attack in it gets dropped, stepped on, or has soda spilled on it."

Speak for yourself, bub. I'm mighty touchy about my books!

I've got a 2 GB thumb drive full of PDF games. The ones that get played are the ones that have been printed out -- even the extremely short ones like Risus and Legends of the Ancient World. Longer games like Timelord, or even BRP Quick-Start Edition, would be impossible to play from an electronic format.

[SDLeary]

THat not what companies have been saying for years. It's been my understanding that printing accounts for about 50% of the cost, and why Mongosse went to the trouble of setting up thier own print shop

It depends on how much is being printed. The more you print, the lower the unit cost. Thus is is somewhat variable depending on printing type and quantity.

Yes, but it is what kills PDFs. In most cases you need a hardcopy to play. And printing a PDF generally costs more than buying a hardcopy. Tablet PCs haven't quite reached the point where they are a reasonable alternative. They arew getting there, but at present, a psychical book is easy to pick up and flip through than an acrobat reader. Most gaming books are not formatted properly for a screen. They need to make it easier to navigate, and read on a tablet (or laptop). One day companies will start writing PDFs designed to be read on a screen rather than printed out. THen they will take advantage of the computer's capabilities.

I suspect that one day the printing costs for an automated printer that prints PDF from a flash drive will become a bit more competitively priced.

I completely agree with you on formatting for tablets. Though amazingly, all the old Chaosium stuff, except Pendragon 4e, is VERY VERY readable on my iPad, despite it being mostly 2 column 9/11 or 9/12 printing. The only stuff I really have to zoom in on is box text.

Whenever you print one of something, thats when its going to be the most expensive. At copy houses this SHOULD NOT be as expensive as it is, but thats not the fault of the publishers. Copy houses tend to charge about 4x+ actual cost for color prints.

SDLeary

[Toadmaster]

The big savings on PDFs from what I understand is distribution, which can account for as much as 60% of the cost of a hard copy (discount to the distributor has to leave room for profit for both the distributor and the shop that gets it, plus associated costs like shipping etc).

Using RQ6 the hardcopy is $62 + shipping vs $25 for the PDF, which I would say is a pretty fair price reduction.

I'm not seeing the more expensive to buy a PDF and print than just buying the hard copy unless you use a commercial printer.

Now I do realize not all companies offer their PDFs at what I would consider reasonably discounted prices, and in those cases I can see the cheaper to buy hardcopy.

Edited November 3, 2012 by Toadmaster

[Gollum]

THe PDFs are cheap, it's getting them printed that costs.

Yes. We fully do agree about that... But precisely! This is where things can be done differently... It is just a matter of habit... Read below...

To read yes, but not to play with. Generally, to play with most people find a hardcopy to be invaluable. A hardcopy is lighter, doesn't need to be turned on, plugged in or charged, can dispalce an entire page at once at a legible size, can displace two full sized pages at the same time, is faster to flip through, and doesn't give the owner a heart attack in it gets dropped, stepped on, or has soda spilled on it.

Until you need to look something up. In play there are times when GMs and players need to look up a specific rule, spell, or some such and that is where a hardcopy tends to be faster and more convenient. Yes, it is changing, but it hasn't gotten to the point where tables are better yet.

With GURPS, or other very detailed systems where precise bonuses and penalties are given for almost every contingency, I would agree with you. Those games require the GM to look through the books extensively during the game.

But with a game like the Basic Role Playing System, it is not at all required. Almost everything is already written on the character sheet... So, with a little organization, it is very easy to play without the full books.

1) Buy a ring binder.

2) Print the most often used charts and tables. Put them in the binder.

3) Prepare carefully the adventure. It becomes a mandatory then: you have to write down the rules for every spell, specific poison and special things that will be used during the game. But this preparation will make you save a lot of time during the game! You will know everything by heart. Or have it just under your eyes when needed... Put your adventure and your notes about it on the binder too.

4) Each players also do that for his character. He must have his character sheet, of course, but also a quick summarize of his spells, powers, etc., writen down on a sheet of paper. If players don't like to do that, do it for him. Here again, the time spent to do it can sound huge, but it will eventually save a lot of time during the game, especially during combats, where you will have have so many things to do at once...

And that's all.

Finally, you play with just one ring binder instead of several heavy cluttering books on the table.

And when you look for something, it's much more easy to find it! Especially after several games (once you are used with your own organization).

This is how I play now. And when I have to leave home to play in a friend of mine's house - like today - it is so much easy to carry just one binder rather than a whole library that I am very happy to have made this choice.

Really! Just try this... You will see how easy it is and how much money you will save by stopping printing everything or buying all hard cover books... Especially for books that you will only read once or twice and from which you will only use half of the stuff... At best!

This is just another manner of playing.

Of course, I still have the main published books. Like the big golden one. But I open them very rarely. Including during my preparation time. My binder is sufficient for most of things.

[rust]

Finally, you play with just one ring binder instead of several heavy cluttering books on the table.

The same here, and if one really needs some obscure rule for an unexpected

situation, it is usually better for the game flow to wing it than to interrupt the

game to search the library.

Edited November 3, 2012 by rust

[nclarke]

Here's how I do it.

I read the rules (although if it is a BRP variant I just check the variances).

With that fresh in my mind I print out/copy any tables or charts that I'm likely to need that aren't on a QR sheet that I can often find on the net.

I slip those charts etc. into plastic sleeves and put them into a binder - this can be as few as half-a-dozen double-sided pages.

When I write a scenario I usually include useful snippets in-line with the text - a map or sketch, background info etc and prepare a handout to go with that verbiage.

So PDF's with the ability to copy and paste sections of text are invaluable in my pre-game preparation. During a game I can run with my notes and the binder together with a QR sheet (often passed to the players as well). If I do need to find an obscure piece of information then an electronic search of the PDF is far quicker than thumbing through a book and a smart phone can do this. So by planning ahead and putting the rulebook in the cloud any player could look up the information while you continue with the game.

So I'd rather have a PDF and dispense with the fluff just keeping the meat of the rules (that half-a-dozen pages) to play with which makes for cheap printing in b&w. I keep the fancy paper and colour for props where they have much more utility than pages of often indifferent art and crappy fake scroll backgrounds.

Nigel

Edited November 3, 2012 by nclarke

[Atgxtg]

"and doesn't give the owner a heart attack in it gets dropped, stepped on, or has soda spilled on it."

Speak for yourself, bub. I'm mighty touchy about my books!

Me too, but I'm a bit less worried about somebody stepping on a gaming book than on my computer. THe book can take a bit more punishment and costs under $100.

I've got a 2 GB thumb drive full of PDF games. The ones that get played are the ones that have been printed out -- even the extremely short ones like Risus and Legends of the Ancient World. Longer games like Timelord, or even BRP Quick-Start Edition, would be impossible to play from an electronic format.

Exactly the same here. We've tried running some stuff from electronic format, and generally it bogs down when we have to look something up. PDFs are really formatted for hardcopy, not electronic format. If they used hypertexting, and a better bookmarking system (like drag & drop a thumbnail to a folder), and the pages were formatted for a screen the size and resolution of a ipad rather than for 8.6x11 or A4, it would be different.

[Pete Nash]

PDFs are really formatted for hardcopy, not electronic format. If they used hypertexting, and a better bookmarking system (like drag & drop a thumbnail to a folder), and the pages were formatted for a screen the size and resolution of a ipad rather than for 8.6x11 or A4, it would be different.

Then you would like the RQ6 pdf which is thoroughly hypertexted, formatted for tablets and has all its tables available as a free download for easy printing of the relevant a GM might use...

[seneschal]

Returned to the game shop closest to my house, the one that specializes in miniatures wargaming. They had restocked Call of Cthulhu (one copy) and had the supplements (one copy each) Arkham Now, Masks of Nyarlothotep, and Cthulhu Invictus. No Big Gold Book. Also present was one copy of the new Legend and the Blood Magic supplement.

I have to say that Legend is quite a contrast to RuneQuest 6 (as well as to previous Mongoose versions of RuneQuest). The version I saw was a relatively thick digest-sized book, paperback, that went for $20. Little or no interior art (a very few black and white line drawings), lots of charts, a rather unattractive character sheet. But a complete game at half the size of the other RPG books there. The plain, dark-blue cover told a casual browser nothing about the contents; I couldn't help comparing it to the coffee table sized and extremely garish Mongoose RuneQuest I hardbacks I remember or to the gorgeous RQ 6. It kind of got lost on the shelf among all those larger, more colorful gaming tomes. Meanwhile, at my favorite used book store, used copies of Mongoose's Player's Guide to Glorantha Second Age is selling for between $20-$22, depending on the condition of the copy (there are several).

So ... Legend, affordable and incredibly portable but drab and uninspiring. RuneQuest 6, gorgeous and evocative but oh so expensive. Both in short supply. Call of Cthulhu, in between at $35, Deep Ones but no dragonewts. Also in short supply, but like the Universal Monsters it just keeps on coming back.

Edited November 3, 2012 by seneschal
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