Why is BRP not that popular?

[badcat]

I thought it was high too, and then it occured to me that maybe it included some sample scenarios. But no, Jason said not. That's a lot of rules...

[Nightshade]

I thought it was high too, and then it occured to me that maybe it included some sample scenarios. But no, Jason said not. That's a lot of rules...

Consider that its got the core mechanics, two magic systems, a set of mutation rules, a set of super power rules, and a lot of optional rules derived from RQ and other sources, how could it _not_ be on that scale?

[Magistus]

You are right. I feel the same. I reduced my presence on this forum too (and the SJG forum too) because it doesnt pay off. So many annoying people. :eek:

I stopped visiting those forums on a constant basis more than a year ago. I was so tired of the people bashing on every RPG.

[Simlasa]

I'd think that the actual, etched in stone, rules are relatively small... it's all the optional rules that take up the space.

[Nightshade]

I'd think that the actual, etched in stone, rules are relatively small... it's all the optional rules that take up the space.

Well, far as I can tell, yeah. I don't think the basic rules are any bigger than they've been for years; the book's main thrust was to gather subsystems and optional rules all in one place, from what I can tell listening to Jason on it.

[Enpeze]

I'd think that the actual, etched in stone, rules are relatively small... it's all the optional rules that take up the space.

This is my hope too. I mean they can describe all these super duper powers and xy magic system and what not and these things will take a lot of space - this is ok for me, but the core system should be minimalistic like BRP should be. Eg. I am still impressed if I am browsing through this:

http://www.basicrps.com/core/index.html

And the character sheet in this BRP light version comes in a very attractive half page format.

[Joseph Paul]

I suspect that Simlasa is right. Even the RQIII rules would only be a fraction of this.

What I don't get is the assertion by Jason that neither he nor Chaosium wanted this to be a "toolkit" for referees. What else is it with all of those optional rules and power systems?:confused: If it does miss being a toolkit (what would have to be missing for that to happen?) why not go all the way and make it one? As has been pointed out here it is hard to break BRP adding stuff to it so I don't see where the harm would be in including such things if they are not already there.

Joseph Paul

[badcat]

My thoughts too. I suppose the difference is that the BRP options are truly just options, and the actual (hopefully minimalist) system is fully independent. I am not sure what the difference might be from GURPS or HERO, myself. Jason, if you are around you might want to address this.

[Joseph Paul]

It didn't actually have an advantage system, justa disadvantage one, and it was only relevant in terms of the pool of super power purchase points.

I kinda thought that the powers were pretty good advantages. The GURPS advantages like Toughness, Acute (Sense), and Rapid Healing mirror powers in SW. Buy them in low quantities for a low power game. There are several advantages that would make sense as increased skills or packages of skills. Things like Rank, Patron, Clerical Investment are the harder ones that a GM would have to fudge but it wouldn't take much.

Even in Superworld, attributes defaulted as rolled; there was an optional point buy system, but that was true in RQ3 too, far as it goes. However, in general, any reference to Superworld is going to be moot for most people as its been out of print so long.snip

But the powers are included in the new BRP and I am presuming that the handicaps will be too. <looks to Jason for confirmation> So it will be relevant again.

Joseph Paul

[Jason D]

What I don't get is the assertion by Jason that neither he nor Chaosium wanted this to be a "toolkit" for referees. What else is it with all of those optional rules and power systems?:confused: If it does miss being a toolkit (what would have to be missing for that to happen?) why not go all the way and make it one?

I'm not sure where you got that impression. Can you point at a specific post or comment that says that?

And my apologies if I've sent out a conflicting message over the long and tortured development process on this game book.

It's very much a core set of rules whose main goal was to be consistent between previous BRP games and generic enough to serve as a platform for most (if not all) settings or genres a GM wants, with optional rules to add complexity if desired, or to reduce it in some cases.

What it isn't is revisionary.

[Jason D]

But the powers are included in the new BRP and I am presuming that the handicaps will be too. <looks to Jason for confirmation> So it will be relevant again.

The super powers section includes some basic handicaps and power modifiers, but they're not as complex or robust as those that a dedicated superhero game would include.

[Jason D]

Am I the only one who thinks that the page count of the new DBRP is high? I dont hope too high. I mean is it a minimalistic rule system or not? What the hell do they describe on 350+p?

The reason the page count is so high is that it is chock-full of optional systems, content, GM advice, overviews of genres and settings, skills described, sanity, allegiance, five separate power systems, equipment ranging from thrown rocks to power armor, etc.

I wanted to make the core book the one-stop-shop for BRP gaming, and I think I got pretty damned close. Future supplements will be spared the page count spent on rules, and will be mostly content.

I've talked to Charlie and Dustin about doing a new and updated version of the 16-page BRP booklet with the new rules, and they're enthusiastic. With that, you could play the game, and hypothetically, you could run a simple campaign with non-powered characters and some basic equipment.

Now to find the time...

[Joseph Paul]

I'm not sure where you got that impression. Can you point at a specific post or comment that says that?

And my apologies if I've sent out a conflicting message over the long and tortured development process on this game book. <snip>

Jason Durall:#28

There are rules for making stuff using powers, but they're admittedly light. Again, it's generally not a big part of the BRP game, and we were very strongly opposed to trying to make it just another generic rules kit like HERO, GURPS, etc.

http://basicroleplaying.com/forum/showthread.php?t=65

Jason Durall:#29

Having BRP become a substitute for GURPS, HERO, Action!, Tri-Stat dX, d20, etc. was ever a consideration or a goal. It's a different kind of game.

I was heartened during playtesting about the number of people who contacted me on the forum and outside about the ease they'd had changing existing systems over to BRP, and how much more fun they were having. I don't know if that would have happened if we'd gone down the "just another generic rules set" path.

Bolded for clarity. These three statements (and I am assuming that you meant '(n)ever a consideration' in the second one) are what led me to believe that the goal was not to produce a toolkit. It was very confusing especially the part about not competing with GURPS and HERO.

Jason Durall:#28

I think those games have their audiences, and BRP has its audience. If anything, they're competing against one another and we're sort of on our own.

How is BRP not generic at this time? After all it is BRP and not RQ, CoC, SB, SW, EQ, RW etc. I don't think there is anything wrong with that, I am just confused how BRP could be seen as not competing with the others for share in the generic toolkit games market.

Hope that helps.

Joseph Paul

[Enpeze]

The reason the page count is so high is that it is chock-full of optional systems, content, GM advice, overviews of genres and settings, skills described, sanity, allegiance, five separate power systems, equipment ranging from thrown rocks to power armor, etc.

I wanted to make the core book the one-stop-shop for BRP gaming, and I think I got pretty damned close. Future supplements will be spared the page count spent on rules, and will be mostly content.

I've talked to Charlie and Dustin about doing a new and updated version of the 16-page BRP booklet with the new rules, and they're enthusiastic. With that, you could play the game, and hypothetically, you could run a simple campaign with non-powered characters and some basic equipment.

Now to find the time...

Good to hear.

Let me add just one thing: A 16p BRP booklet would be ABSOLUTELY great! Maybe just a pdf for download, a cheap teaser to get roleplayers from other systems interested to the BRP book. (call it a demo or so )

[badcat]

I don't really like multi-genre games that much, usually. In fact I would rather have seen an expanded Magic World. But that's OK. I am very happy to have BRP sans settings. I think the reason Jason doesn't consider this a 'toolkit' multi-genre game is that the whole purpose of the book was initially to gather all the BRP rules from the various setting books into one place. So essentially it was not the intent, but the final book resembles the toolkit games up to a point. That close to it, Jason?

[Joseph Paul]

Are we using different definitions for 'multi-genre'? :confused:

My definition would be: The playing of different genres, one genre at a time.

I seem to be reading some posts as defining it as: The playing of different genres, all at the same time.

Is it just me?

Joseph Paul

[badcat]

Nah, I'm getting confused too:D

[Jason D]

How is BRP not generic at this time? After all it is BRP and not RQ, CoC, SB, SW, EQ, RW etc. I don't think there is anything wrong with that, I am just confused how BRP could be seen as not competing with the others for share in the generic toolkit games market.

Let me (hopefully) be utterly clear:

My goal when working on this was never to make just another set of generic game rules sake for the sake of having just another generic system out there.

It was to take the much-beloved and easy-to-use BRP and make a version of it that wasn't tied to Stormbringer or Call of Cthulhu, and brought back some of the cool stuff that had appeared in games as diverse as Elfquest, Runequest, Ringworld, Superworld, and Worlds of Wonder. I have long been the type of GM who ends up adapting many settings to BRP, and I was getting frankly tired of having to drag my Stormbringer, RQ3, Call of Cthulhu, and other rulebooks out whenever I wanted to create a new setting. I was also a bit annoyed how the different strains of BRP never seemed to be exactly congruent - there was always something squidgy that wasn't the same between the different game lines, and I wanted something consistent.

If anything, think of this as the super-complete version of the old BRP 16-page booklet that appeared in Worlds of Wonder and the original Call of Cthulhu boxed set. The goal is that GMs can use it to make their own settings in the style of Super-World, Magic World, Futureworld, etc.

Sure, it will be viewed as competing in the same "generic RPG space" as GURPS and HERO, but those games have their audiences, and a strength of BRP is ease of use. I would venture to say that most people who play GURPS like crunchy rules for building vehicles, and most people who play HERO like the effects-based powers systems.

I think of it BRP competing against them in the same way that fruit juice competes against soda and liqueurs in the drinks category - they're essentially the same sort of thing (something sweet to drink), but fulfill very different tastes.

[Jason D]

Are we using different definitions for 'multi-genre'? :confused:

My definition would be: The playing of different genres, one genre at a time.

I seem to be reading some posts as defining it as: The playing of different genres, all at the same time.

Is it just me?

Joseph Paul

I think there's a fundamental difference of opinion about what the term means and we're talking past one another.

"Multi-genre game" can mean either a setting that crosses genres, like Rifts or Torg, or it can be a system that can be used for multiple genres, like d20, FUDGE, HERO, GURPS, etc.

You could just as easily play a kitchen-sink BRP game with sword-and-sorcery archers and Cherokee survivalists fighting UFOs in ancient Mesoamerica as you could run four different campaigns - a sword-and-sorcery game, a post-apocalyptic game, a UFO-fighting game, and a Mesoamerican myth game.

For what it's worth, I have very little taste for multi-genre settings, but hope I made an excellent multi-genre set of rules.

[Jason D]

I would venture to say that most people who play GURPS like crunchy rules for building vehicles, and most people who play HERO like the effects-based powers systems.

And while it seems strange to be quoting myself here, let me clarify that one can play the new BRP without getting into the whole point-based character generation thing at all if you don't want to. Point-based character creation is only a feature if you decide to use the super powers system or decide you want to use it.

In games like Hero, GURPS, etc., point-based is the default system and cannot be easily removed from character generation.

[Simlasa]

I'm inclined to think a lot of science fiction games (like Traveller) are inherently multi-genre when they provide rules for dealing with a wide range of technology levels and types of adventure.

[Nightshade]

I think the distinction Jason is making here--and I don't think its _entirely_ valid, but I understand why he's making it--is that the new BRP doesn't attempt to provide a tool for every purpose. It gives a basic system, some optional rules, and some add-ons that might be useful for common uses of the system, but its not attempting to be a true one-size-fits all multifunction system.

(The reason I don't think this is entirely valid is a I think toolkitting is a matter of degree rather than an absolute; as an example, at least prior to GURPS current edition (which I've not read nor own, so I don't want to comment on too much, but some have said its moved more in this direction), it only went so far in this direction; it had a psionics system and a magic system, but they made pretty specific assumptions, even if they had some toggling, and if you needed something that worked by different assumptions, or overlapped more, you were back to building your own. Hero goes farther in this direction, trying to make the build bits as atomic as it can, but even there there are always arguments that even those bits make assumptions themselves. And so it goes).

That said, I think there's something to be said for both approaches; a core system designed to have dedicated subsystems made for it can make for a better fit sometimes than one that has a more generic subsystem maker attached. Its just more work, and gives you less guidance, so for most people there's a tradeoff.

[badcat]

Thanks, Jason. I for one am not confused any more. I think.

[badcat]

...and I have to say that I very much appreciate the motivation of wanting a clean rules-only BRP ruleset, uncluttered by setting details and minutiae, as I have been picking the rules apart from the settings in Chaosium games for a few decades as well. I look forward to getting the book.

[RMS]

I'm not particularly convinced this is true when compared to many post 4th level spells, honestly. The limitation usually is the fact that there's a functional cap on most rune magic in that there's no fixed power spells about 3 points; that means unless you're writing your rune magic to no common standard, there's a cap beyond how powerful a rune spell can go, and given that the exemplars here tend to be things like Slay Living (its been a while so I may be confusing the name with a spell from another system--the spell that's usually only reusable by Humakti in Glorantha) or Sunspear, those are functionally the top end of the power level, and those aren't compareable to 6th or higher level spells in D&D, or some of the more potent magic that can be found in other systems.

You lost me in your logic above, but I'll try to answer what I understand. Severe Spirit is the spell you're looking for and it's hard to imagine anything much more powerful. A single POW vs. POW roll leads to automatic death for someone at a range outside of any physical attack. Even if the caster fails to overcome POW, the target takes 1d6 damage, enough to drop human sized creatures.

Sunspear and Thunderbolt have tremendous power. You don't even get a Saving Throw in RQ. A Thunderbolt can be stacked, there's no armor protection, no magical protection that works against it. It can be use on one target or split between multiple targets. There's no upper limit on it. I don't recall if Sunspear has the same ability.

If you want large area effect, there are Earthquake spells, Cloud Call, etc. They're hard to build to enough power to have large scale effects, but it can be done.

I understand how someone can mistake those as lacking in power, but I don't buy that they actually are lacking power. In many ways they're more powerful than most D&D spells because there's no ability for the target to resist the spell at all in many cases. In D&D you always get some sort of Saving Throw and it's not reduced by the caster's power.

I think the biggest problem is just that the divine magic is spread out and is a very different take on magic than learning a bunch of discrete spells ala D&D. Also, I don't necessarily expect everyone to prefer to RQ take on magic either, but I don't buy that it's less powerful, especially in regard to the physical power level of PCs and NPCs in the game.