BRP Mecha is coming!

[MatteoN]

Hi everybody, I'm new to the forum.

We did not suffer from these cuts in Italy (except for Yamato and, which arrived from the Stats as Starblazers and not from Japan), as these shows were mostly broadcast by minor tv networks which did not care much about this subject. Later versions were cut when our Big Brother Network started airing them, but most animes were circulating in uncut versions until the end of the 80s.

I think you forgot to write "Gatchaman" (which was broadcasted by the Big Brother initially, if I remember correctly) and "Robotech" after the "and", right? And perhaps also Golion/Voltron?

I'm interested in this new supplement. How crunchy will it be? Mekton was too complex for me in the 'nineties, and now I have a strong aversion for rules/math-heavy rpgs.

I wonder if Mecha + Dragon Lines would allow me to run a Giant Robot (I'm thinking of the awesome OAV series from the 'nineties) game, without drowning in the crunch.

Ciao!

[Atgxtg]

Odd. I saw the first run here in SF in 79, and certainly remember death and dismemberment, etc. I don't remember dead characters returning, though that may have been in later runs... kids censorship became much more an issue in the 80s.

You don't remember anyone coming back from the dead becuase the were not allowed to "Die" in the Americanized versions. In the US versions they simply cut the part where the character died, and then reused old footage and new fialoge to make it appear as if the character was still around.

THe "Knox got out behind you" line is one example. At one point in the show the crew of the Yamato were fighting the bad guys, and were in the process of retreating from an enemy site (ship or base, I can't remember) when it blew up. The marine, "Knox" was doing a rear guard action while the other retreated. There is a big explosion. "Knox" (whatever his name really was in Japanese) dies. It's cut & dried. But in the US version they dub in "Knox got out right behind you" and keep the character from dying for the rest of the series.

In fact, even in the first run of Macross (yes as Robotech) they hadn't completed the editing yet, and when the SDF-1 changed, you'd see body parts flying as people got sliced up by shifting bulkheads, or during battle explosions. When I saw this run later, it was obvious that stuff had been airbrushed out.

Yes, but despite the whole Robotech thing, Harmony Gold didn"t chop Macross as heavily as Yamato got chopped. If if were Starblzers, Roy Fokker would have survived and been edited into the remainder of the series. They probably would have promoted him off the SDF1 so Hikaru/Rick could take over as Skull Leader (so they wouldn't have to cut all the animation with Hikaru in Roy's fighter). Likewise none of the other named characters would have died either. And everyone from the bridge would have survived Kyron's ramming attack.

Starblazers was that bad and heavy handed with the editing. It's ironic that the one main character they allowed to die in the US version actually comes back from the dead in Japan.

[RosenMcStern]

Hi everybody, I'm new to the forum.

Benvenuto!

I think you forgot to write "Gatchaman" (which was broadcasted by the Big Brother initially, if I remember correctly) and "Robotech" after the "and", right? And perhaps also Golion/Voltron?

You got me! I forgot to mention Robotech although I actually wanted to write it after that "and". I did not even think of Gatchaman as I am not a big fan of it. Golion was broadcast by Big Brother as Golion before the american version (Voltron) appeared, so it counts as not being cut.

I'm interested in this new supplement. How crunchy will it be? Mekton was too complex for me in the 'nineties, and now I have a strong aversion for rules/math-heavy rpgs.

It is as crunchy as you want it to be. I have provided a whole set of alternate rules for combat, so that you can play it as "more crunchy than Mekton" with a 20m-per-square grid, or "rules lite" with movement expressed in areas, range expressed in short/medium/long/x-long and penalties expressed in "red tokens". My blindtest group (from Pisa) appreciated the tokens idea and found it a great semplification, and they have played a lot of d100 in their gaming life.

Starblazers was that bad and heavy handed with the editing. It's ironic that the one main character they allowed to die in the US version actually comes back from the dead in Japan.

Aaargh! Atg, why did you remind me of that. I have read Marvel Comics for 30 years, but NO resurrection in the Marvel continuity (okay, maybe Aunt May's....), where NO ONE stays dead for more than 150 issues, has ever pissed me off like THAT resurrection. Luckily it takes place in a movie, so you can treat it as non-canon like the second movie where everyone dies.

[Atgxtg]

Aaargh! Atg, why did you remind me of that. I have read Marvel Comics for 30 years, but NO resurrection in the Marvel continuity (okay, maybe Aunt May's....), where NO ONE stays dead for more than 150 issues, has ever pissed me off like THAT resurrection. Luckily it takes place in a movie, so you can treat it as non-canon like the second movie where everyone dies.

One of the worse resurrections ever. It pretty much takes away whatever shreds of creduity and integrity the series had left. I think it was because they were running out of characters people would care about. By that time I think they were down to two of the orginal characters left, and were planning on killing them off. But it would be like bringing Uncle Ben back in the Marvell Universe and having him turn out to be Bucky BArnes (yes, I knw they got Winter Soldier now, *sigh*).

Don't get me wrong, Yamato was a good series. but they went to the well too many times, and killed off too many characters in too many "final" films. Heck they went to the well so many thimes then dug a hole out to the other side.

[Guest Vile Traveller]

As for the Yamato real life movie... why dub it? I have seen a subtitled version, and it was great. I have started to appreciate subtitles over dubbing lately. Japanese audio is part of the fun.

This, with bells on. Subtitles are an acquired taste for many people, but it's hard to go back to dubbing once you get used to it.

[Atgxtg]

This, with bells on. Subtitles are an acquired taste for many people, but it's hard to go back to dubbing once you get used to it.

Yeah. although it depends a lot on the quality of the dubbing. I was watching a film the other day, and not only did they change some of the meaning of the film, but you could tell about 4 people did all the voices.

[MatteoN]

It is as crunchy as you want it to be. I have provided a whole set of alternate rules for combat, so that you can play it as "more crunchy than Mekton" with a 20m-per-square grid, or "rules lite" with movement expressed in areas, range expressed in short/medium/long/x-long and penalties expressed in "red tokens". My blindtest group (from Pisa) appreciated the tokens idea and found it a great semplification, and they have played a lot of d100 in their gaming life.

That's good news, I'm keen on using tokens to reduce paperwork and speed up play.

I don't own the BGB (but I own several editions of CoC and I'm going to buy the new edition of the Stormbringer/Elric! rules set, Magic World), do I need it to play Mecha?

[seneschal]

Yeah. although it depends a lot on the quality of the dubbing. I was watching a film the other day, and not only did they change some of the meaning of the film, but you could tell about 4 people did all the voices.

AD Vision is particularly bad about this. For instance, I've watched old (not recent) Godzilla movies with my kids where the English dialogue's foul language made me cringe -- but when I switched to subtitles, all the cursing magically disappeared. It wasn't in the original Japanese but was added by the American dubbing company. Likewise, their re-dub of Gatchaman grows in profanity the further episodes you go along. Now, I realize Japanese morals don't necessarily match American ones, but this was a children's show made in the 1960s. Surely even in Japan, children's show characters don't talk like protagonists from R-rated American action movies.

Another example, a show I think was called Ghost Hunters about school kids who fight monsters. There was a scene where the students were riding the bus together. In the English dub, the characters have a snarky argument that included some choice words and sass to the bus driver. In the original Japanese, there's no argument, no snark, no cursing, just casual conversation. A student asks a polite question of the bus driver and thanks him courteously for his reply. So the English dub totally changed the tone and meaning of the scene. That's inexcusable, in addition to being utterly unnecessary. Does ADV actually think I won't watch a movie or television program if it isn't stuffed with foul language?

[Atgxtg]

AD Vision is particularly bad about this. For instance, I've watched old (not recent) Godzilla movies with my kids where the English dialogue's foul language made me cringe -- but when I switched to subtitles, all the cursing magically disappeared. It wasn't in the original Japanese but was added by the American dubbing company.

Uh, sorry, that's not the dubbers fault, that has to do with differernt cultures. The Japeanese language can be remarkably vague and indirect. There are no actual curse words in Japanese. So you might not see them in a literal translation. THere are, however, wods and expressions that serve as curse words, and they might be more acctualtely translated as a curse word in English.

For example, the term "Shimata" tranlate as "I made a mistake" or "this is wong" but depending on how it is used, it probably can be more accurately translated as "$h*t' or as "I f***ked up." Often, a literal translation won't make sense becuase it would be out of context. Talking about a girl's "teacup" in Japanese has nothing to do with tea.

Likewise, their re-dub of Gatchaman grows in profanity the further episodes you go along. Now, I realize Japanese morals don't necessarily match American ones, but this was a children's show made in the 1960s. Surely even in Japan, children's show characters don't talk like protagonists from R-rated American action movies.

Actually, they do. It goes with the lack of curse words. Basically intent and context mean more than the actual words used. There was a pilot for a Japanese TV series a few years back that made constant use of the N word. In fact, the whole show was build around it. And grannies and toddlers can walk around wearing T-shirts with the F bomb on them.

Another example, a show I think was called Ghost Hunters about school kids who fight monsters. There was a scene where the students were riding the bus together. In the English dub, the characters have a snarky argument that included some choice words and sass to the bus driver. In the original Japanese, there's no argument, no snark, no cursing, just casual conversation. A student asks a polite question of the bus driver and thanks him courteously for his reply. So the English dub totally changed the tone and meaning of the scene. That's inexcusable, in addition to being utterly unnecessary. Does ADV actually think I won't watch a movie or television program if it isn't stuffed with foul language?

That can happen. But sometimes people are being snarky in different ways in Japen. One way to be rude in Japeanse is to drop honorif prefixes. So if they said something like "Hey driver, or even Excuse me, driver" they could be acting deliberatly rude in Japan. SOmetimes a company is trying to impress a certain target audience, too.

But, there is a lot of stuff that gets lost in translation. Taken literally one might think that all the characters in an anime all have the same grandparents.

BTW, the badly dubbed fim I was watch was a Gojira movie.

[seneschal]

"Uh, sorry, that's not the dubbers fault, that has to do with differernt cultures. The Japeanese language can be remarkably vague and indirect. There are no actual curse words in Japanese. So you might not see them in a literal translation. THere are, however, wods and expressions that serve as curse words, and they might be more acctualtely translated as a curse word in English.

For example, the term "Shimata" tranlate as "I made a mistake" or "this is wong" but depending on how it is used, it probably can be more accurately translated as "$h*t' or as "I f***ked up." Often, a literal translation won't make sense becuase it would be out of context. Talking about a girl's "teacup" in Japanese has nothing to do with tea."

I'm not an expert on Japanese culture, but I still fault ADV. If a dubber has a choice between "I made a mistake" and a coarser alternative, there's little reason not to go with the politer version, especially when you're translating what was a childrens' program in the U.S. If Japanese is as vague and iffy a language as you say, with no built-in profanities, why not err on the side of clean language instead of foul? Electing to be "as dirty as you wanna be" is a translator choice that does a disservice to the English-speaking customers.

It's the difference between the 1950s version of Oklahoma! where Aunt Eller says, "I'll be danged if I ain't just as good (as other people)" instead of "damned" as was said in a recent British revival starring Hugh Jackman. The meaning is the same, but the selection of coarser language (and racier dance moves and costuming during the ballet scene) was the British producer's choice. I can tell you as an Oklahoman that folks here talk more like the 1950s version.

The bus scene in Ghost Hunters wasn't a cultural glitch. Based on the tone of the Japanese voices and the animated characters' experssions and body language, the American dubbers deliberately changed the dialogue, possibly with the intention of enlivening what they felt was a dull scene. It was one of several instances where quarrelsomeness was inserted in relations among the students which just wasn't there in the Japanese version. It's the equivalent of inserting an expletive-laced argument in the middle of a Japanese dub of a Scooby Doo, Where Are You? episode.

Edited November 19, 2012 by seneschal

[Atgxtg]

"

I'm not an expert on Japanese culture, but I still fault ADV. If a dubber has a choice between "I made a mistake" and a coarser alternative, there's little reason not to go with the politer version,

There is plenty of reason. Generally the intent of the scene.

especially when you're translating what was a childrens' program in the U.S.[/qoute]

I disagree with you strongly here. Just because some body previously dumbed it down and claimed it was targeting children in the US does not mean that such was the intent of the original, nor that it was supposed to be turned into a G-rating. The reason why animation has a reputation as "for children" in the US is becuase of how much companies used to chop out and dumb down the stories to what they thought was appropriate for children.

And in Japan a lot of things are considered acceptable for a teen age audience. Their view is that teenagers arew interested in sex, and they don"t try to prent otherwise like they do in the US.

Back to Space Crusier Yamato, you might not have realized that the robot Anaylzer (IQ-9 in Starblazers) was a total pervert and kept going after Yuki (Nova). Now we might not approve of the character or his actions in the anime, but it was wrong to chop that stuff out. It's part of the story.

If Japanese is as vague and iffy a language as you say, with no built-in profanities, why not err on the side of clean language instead of foul? Electing to be "as dirty as you wanna be" is a translator choice that does a disservice to the English-speaking customers.

Because if Japanese e the profanities are determined by the context of the situation. Somebody can be very profane just by the way they say something and what forms of address they use. Something that doesn't exist in modern English. There are differences in speech patterns between gender and with social class. In Japanese soebody could be very rude and insulting just by using terms meant for someone of a different, age, social cast, or gender.

And sometimes a literal translation won't make sense or seem stupid.

It's the difference between the 1950s version of Oklahoma! where Aunt Eller says, "I'll be danged if I ain't just as good (as other people)" instead of "damned" as was said in a recent British revival starring Hugh Jackman. The meaning is the same, but the selection of coarser language (and racier dance moves and costuming during the ballet scene) was the British producer's choice. I can tell you as an Oklahoman that folks here talk more like the 1950s version.

I think there was more that the use of the word damn that accounts for that. Gone With the Wind used damn rather famously, and it was and still is quite popular.

The bus scene in Ghost Hunters wasn't a cultural glitch. Based on the tone of the Japanese voices and the animated characters' expressions and body language, the American dubbers deliberately changed the dialogue, possibly with the intention of enlivening what they felt was a dull scene. It was one of several instances where quarrelsomeness was inserted in relations among the students which just wasn't there in the Japanese version. It's the equivalent of inserting an expletive-laced argument in the middle of a Japanese dub of a Scooby Doo, Where Are You? episode.

I'm not familiar with that anime, so I can't say what the intent was. I will say a lot of the time, the expressions and body language doesn't always match up with what people think it did. I can say that as a rule the translators should try to be as true to the story and content as they can. Sometimes that means translating intent rather than a literal translation.

[seneschal]

Note that the moderate expletive in Gone with the Wind was used once, for emphatic effect at the climax of the movie. Rhett Butler (and the rest of the characters) didn't casually breathe out profanities every other word the way characters do in modern films. Despite the claims of cynical movie makers, most people don't really talk that way in real life, or they didn't until generations of teens from the '70s onward were specifically targeted by movies crammed with casual continuous cursing.

But I don't want to derail the thread. I'd just like to be able to watch a foreign cartoon or Godzilla movie with my kids without having to wade through the sewer. (For that matter, I'd like to be able to watch an American cartoon or movie without having to wadie through the sewer.)

[Guest Vile Traveller]

Despite the claims of cynical movie makers, most people don't really talk that way in real life.

Except in Ireland (or Dublin, anyway). It always blows my suspension of disbelief when I see Irish films where everyone isn't cursing worse than Father Jack.

[Atgxtg]

Note that the moderate expletive in Gone with the Wind was used once, for emphatic effect at the climax of the movie. Rhett Butler (and the rest of the characters) didn't casually breathe out profanities every other word the way characters do in modern films. Despite the claims of cynical movie makers, most people don't really talk that way in real life, or they didn't until generations of teens from the '70s onward were specifically targeted by movies crammed with casual continuous cursing.

Sounds like your problem goes beyond anime and has to deal with "modern" culture.

But I don't want to derail the thread. I'd just like to be able to watch a foreign cartoon or Godzilla movie with my kids without having to wade through the sewer. (For that matter, I'd like to be able to watch an American cartoon or movie without having to wadie through the sewer.)

Well, then prescreen what you let your kids watch, or at least find out what the program is rated. It's not like you are being forced to watch it.

You don't have to like or approve of what others put in their shows. You don't have to watch those shows either. But the people who make those programs should not be censored just because you don't like something. Apparently enough people don't mind it to make the shows profitable.

If you want some american cartoon to watch without "wading through the sewer" go get an old Disney cartoon.

[seneschal]

That mindset is exactly the problem. Of course, my family watches old movies and old TV shows on DVD. But those shouldn't have to be our only alternatives. I can easily turn the argument around. Filth-lovers aren't forced to watch clean, wholesome material. But they don't have have the right to dump their garbage on everyone else. The truth is that some of the most profitable movies in recent decades have been the clean, family-oriented ones because audiences are starving for something decent to watch. When movie makers have gone all out to force their perverse visions on the public, their dream projects have often tanked at the box office. Making films and TV shows loaded with profanity, dirty jokes, and extreme violence is a producer's choice, a worldview. Some of them are pushing their views despite the product's lack of profitability, not because of it.

Another irony, despite all the dread of "censorship," many of motion picture history's great films were made between 1930 and 1968, when the Hayes Code was in effect. Most of those films were adult-oriented, like Casablanca or the original 3:10 to Yuma. Decades of product demonstrate that you can tell an "adult" (Oscar-winning) story without loading it with profanity, gore, or gratuitous sex scenes. Adding the trash doesn't make a work more relevant, realistic, or "adult," it just makes it nastier.

Fortunately, many of Hayao Miyazaki's animated works are clean, as well as being well-written and thoughtful.

[Atgxtg]

That mindset is exactly the problem. Of course, my family watches old movies and old TV shows on DVD. But those shouldn't have to be our only alternatives.

Perhaps, but no one else should be obligated to censor their material to cater to your wishes.

I can easily turn the argument around.

[seneschal]

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this, since the discussion has devolved into a "Yes it is!" "No it isn't!" stage. Our energy apparently would be better spend statting out that Yamato vs. Godzilla battle. Note: At no time did I suggest that someone take a pair of scissors to folks' favorite anime series. I merely suggested that if English translators have a range of word choices when dubbing a scene, they might as well go with a milder version of an expression rather than choosing the nastiest, most vile one (as AD Vision seems wont to do).

Also, for reference on my box office results statements, see Michael Medved's Hollywood vs. America.

Amazon.com: Hollywood vs. America: The Explosive Bestseller that Shows How-and Why-the Entertainment Industry Has Broken Faith With Its Audience (9780060924355): Michael Medved: Books

Have a Happy Thanksgiving.

Since many people are thinking about turkey today, I recommend 1957's The Giant Claw. It's actually a well-plotted, well-acted example of the Fifties giant creature movies ... until you get to the creature itself.

Ironically, Rodan was released the same year. They'd make entertaining back-to-back viewing -- and provide fuel for another BRP monster vs. monster slugfest.

[seneschal]

Just curious ... among all the robot previews have we had a "definitely not-Voltron" yet?

[pansophy]

Hey Rosen,

are there any rules in the book for fighting Mecha Robots with handguns/Heavy Weapons? I mean, this is obviously futile, but I am interested if there is any scaling in regards to SIZ and STR and a comparison to human values ...

[RosenMcStern]

There are scaling rules for damage and movement between mecha and humanoids. Essentially, you divide everything by 10 and you have Mecha scale.

Combat between humanoids and Mecha is rather rare, but you can handle it somehow. Small mecha might be vulnerable to hand-held Stinger missiles, and the rules cover such kind of weapons. In the super robot genre, heroes sometimes battle mecha, and although the rules do not officially cover this, I have inserted an example - taken from an actual game session - where a pilot fights a kaiju with an armed motorcycle.

[pansophy]

Cool! Please let us know once the pre-order starts!

[RosenMcStern]

Soon. Veeeeery soon.

[1000buffalo]

Soon. Veeeeery soon.

6 days is not veeeeery soon. It is perhaps soon, reasonably soon, or even veeery soon.

I've been reading Battletech historicals, hence the poke.

[KjetilKverndokken]

What types of mecha does this book support? is it only Gundam/Macross types of mecha and over the top "magic mechas" - or are there also rules for more Mechwarrior types of mecha?

I prefer my mecha more along the latter, and as a Cthulhutech fan (the setting not the rules), so this is important for me when considering this product

[RosenMcStern]

The rules are designed and playtested for anime style mechas, not battletech. They can reproduce fairly well Go Nagai super robots, Macross, Gundam and Code Geass mecha. Yes, they are very different from one another, but the rules come in different "playsets".

However, you can do something more in the spirit of mechwarriors if you wish. Code Geass knightmares are not so distant from battletech, and the game handles them well. The only difficulty is that you need design your own sub-genre. But I suppose it is not a problem for you.