Magic Heavy Fantasy Supplements

[Robsbot]

Great information and demon fun removed for space's sake

WOW.

Just, WOW.

I really enjoyed Elric!'s rules but I did notice it tended to focus on keeping one defined demon at a time. Otherwise you obviously run into POW problems. I've actually been reviewing the rules heavily as I want to have a separate sect of Sorcerers that are Demonologists and lock off demon spells to those who wish to give a large portion of their spellbook for that type of thing.

I figured it was rather balanced as is, but keeping a more flexible array of demons at your disposal is just mindblowing. That pact system does the whole Demonologist thing so much better. I can have Sorcerers keep demons as imbued pets, whereas Demonologists will have that "hordes of demon" feel without it being game-breakingly overpowered. I could even divide them into two separate entities. Possibly devils would be craftier so they'd be more willing to enter pacts but demons would be more vile and force bindings.

Wow... that is really, really cool. I'll have to sit down and digest that for a bit. Man that's cool. I'll absolutely be picking up Corum now. The fine details on that system, chaos creatures, the setting bits, and tattoos and whatnot would all be cool to have.

Could you give some examples of what the "pact cost" could be or what has worked in your games? Also, do the pact demons have any sort of abilities when they aren't item bound or would I just give them, say 100% swords if I wanted them to be combat ready?

Edited December 6, 2012 by Robsbot

[Mankcam]

You know, ironically, I never really use the Demon rules. I've used them most frequently as a way for me as a GM to allow the PCs to make enchanted items, but never really as 'demons shoved into a sword' or whatever. A few times I've run campaigns where I've just told the players to create enchanted items for themselves equal to a number of points and then let them start off with cool ancestral doodads.

I think its a great build for magic item creation, I would have actually preferred a generic approach to this in Advanced Sorcery, with perhaps various example 'trappings' such as Enchantments, Blessings or Bound Demonic Abilities. That way nothing is lost from the previous Elric! rules, yet other settings can gain. Just an idea, (perhaps a little late now)...

[Chaot]

You know, ironically, I never really use the Demon rules. I've used them most frequently as a way for me as a GM to allow the PCs to make enchanted items, but never really as 'demons shoved into a sword' or whatever. A few times I've run campaigns where I've just told the players to create enchanted items for themselves equal to a number of points and then let them start off with cool ancestral doodads.

Indeed, I thought about rewriting the Demon rules in Advanced Sorcery to reflect that; repurposing them as an 'enchantment creation system'. But, when I spoke with a few people about it, in the end I decided to leave them as-is for the people that like them as Demon rules.

Don't get me wrong, your Demon Summoning rules were part of what made me fall in love with Elric! all those sixteen or so years ago when I first found it. I'm glad you kept them as summoning rules. I outlined the nightmare scenario but there are some simple tweaks.

For manifest demons

-Substitute Pact rules for Demon Negotiations so that having a demon on call doesn't cost permanent POW but does take up INT and have a Pact price

-When not item binding, let the initial spell cost provide 2d8 to all Stats instead of 1d8 (except POW which remains at 3d8)

-When not item binding, allow MP to increase skill categories instead of skills

-If sorcerer does Bind demon instead of Pacting with the demon, she spends a permanent point of POW and no longer has to pay Pact price but does have to provide for Demon Needs

For items

-Double the point buy for result on Roll Table for Demons and Elementals

-Instead of buying broad skill categories, narrow them to buying specific skills (like it is currently done)

-Consider an additional point of permanent POW for the Demon Weapon/Armor/Shield demon ability.

-Insert Chaos Creatures as is and use as the poor sorcerer's down and dirty demon

Some of the Demon Abilities could stand some tweaking, but I've found the above changes go a long way in smoothing Demon Summoning out.

I think its a great build for magic item creation, I would have actually preferred a generic approach to this in Advanced Sorcery, with perhaps various example 'trappings' such as Enchantments, Blessings or Bound Demonic Abilities. That way nothing is lost from the previous Elric! rules, yet other settings can gain. Just an idea, (perhaps a little late now)...

I think an item enchantment system would be the bee's knees. I'm glad this was kept as summoning and would rather see something like Contrivances reworked and expanded. Instead of Quality, Mechanics and Plan Shift it would be great to have something that juggles aspect enhancements, skill enhancements and effects under different titles.

I figured it was rather balanced as is, but keeping a more flexible array of demons at your disposal is just mindblowing. That pact system does the whole Demonologist thing so much better. I can have Sorcerers keep demons as imbued pets, whereas Demonologists will have that "hordes of demon" feel without it being game-breakingly overpowered. I could even divide them into two separate entities. Possibly devils would be craftier so they'd be more willing to enter pacts but demons would be more vile and force bindings.

This is totally doable and there can be some overlap between the two traditions as well.

Two unrelated things I need to bring attention to. I got my brain wires mixed on skills. The skill break down is not 100/50/50, but is 50/30/30. These skills can be improved at 10% per 1 mp. Also, Chaos Critters are generally combinations of animal types; avian, equine, etc. Pick two types, mix them together and you get their looks and basic abilities. They also only come with a limited amount of selectable skills to enhance. These are very simple, physical skills. When you want a thinking minion, you go demon.

Wow... that is really, really cool. I'll have to sit down and digest that for a bit. Man that's cool. I'll absolutely be picking up Corum now. The fine details on that system, chaos creatures, the setting bits, and tattoos and whatnot would all be cool to have.

That's pretty much how I felt when I read it the first time. It's a really neat book.

Could you give some examples of what the "pact cost" could be or what has worked in your games? Also, do the pact demons have any sort of abilities when they aren't item bound or would I just give them, say 100% swords if I wanted them to be combat ready?

Corum describes the Pact costs as the 'item' of a 'victim' which I think is pretty fair. The ear of a blacksmith, the eye of a tailor's son, the little toe of a maiden. Pretty standard. Then when you move up in power you get things like hearts, kidneys whole dead bodies, whole living bodies and the victims become princesses, barons, mighty warriors , sorcerers or kings. I keep it simple for Chaos Creatures and start getting fancy for pacts with powerful demons.

I also like to open the bargaining up. While the poor PC who is planning on summoning put their ideas together, I ask them a couple of times how much they're willing to pay for it. I use the first summoning as a chance to hammer out the details. Often, the summoned entity begins with a ridiculous demand and the PC presents a counter offer. They land someplace in the middle. If an accord is not reached, that's when things start to get ugly. It's not strictly by the book, but it works for my group. Also, I will allow a Bargain roll to give the sorcerer a small advantage (or disadvantage if they roll poorly).

If down the line I decide that the struck bargain is a bit too advantageous I might have the pacted entity press for renegotiations. The PC doesn't have to and the pacted entity is still bound within the original pact, but it becomes disgruntled and only acts to the extent commanded. If down the line the PC decides that the asking price for the pact is too much but they want to keep the Critter or the Demon on payroll, they can try to Bind them. Once bound, the Pact price shifts to being a demon need.

Anyway, that's kind of how I've been running it. For whatever it's worth.

[rhialto]

Corum is on sale direct from Chaosium for ~$12.50 right now: just ordered a copy.

Excellent thread: I rejiggered Stormbringer 5th for an Atlantean campaign, ditching the Chaos - Law - Balance divide for sorcery spells (those Atlanteans, you know...wonder why they nearly destroyed the world...), but had removed all of the Summoning spells. Might need to reintroduce them now.