How to publish my own subsystem?

[Witigis]

Well, so far I managed to enter the forum - first step done (hopefully).

Now, I did that, because I have some sort of a problem:

For some time (years probably), I have put work in adapting rpg systems to a World War II setting. I first started by reworking GDWs old Twilight 2000, but then I came upon BRP.

Well, to keep it short: I have just finished adapting BRP to my World War II setting (or, if you would like to put it like that, the other wy round). Now, what does that mean?

I have consolidated a core rule book (320 pages) and altogether 12 supplements detailing weapons and vehicles (ground vehicles and aircraft, the German vehicle book alone has more than 150 pages, one page for each vehicle). Im currently working on adapting these supplements to the core rules.

I am playing this system with friends of mine (you can see one of them explaining a bit about the old version on youtube

).

Now, my problem: I would really like to share my work with anyone interested, but it is way to much to simply put it on any web page AND I do not want to receive some nicely written message with something about copyright in it... how can I proceed? I would be really glad for tips and comments.

If you are interested, I can easily give more details...

Thomas Engbarth (Witigis)

PS: As you may have already discerned, I am not an native English speaker (I am German), but all the rules are in English language (well, there are surly some faults and errors in there...

O:)

[nclarke]

If you're prepared to do some more work you could take Legend or the Mongoose Runequest II system document which describes the game mechanisms in OGL format and weld that to your system and provide the OGL licence document in the package.

That would meet any licensing obligations regarding the material that relies on the BRP style mechanisms used by Mongoose.

IANAL but any other approach is likely to be perceived as a challenge to Chaosium's copyright. I don't know about German copyright law so you may be safe putting it on-line in Germany but any attempt to host downloadable material in the US is going to be an issue.

You are also up against the recently completed Achtung Cthulhu kickstarter which is a professionally produced work using the same background and the BRP system http://basicroleplaying.com/call-cthulhu/achtung-cthulhu-kickstarter-3241/

HTH

[Gollum]

Now, my problem: I would really like to share my work with anyone interested, but it is way to much to simply put it on any web page AND I do not want to receive some nicely written message with something about copyright in it... how can I proceed? I would be really glad for tips and comments.

The only legal way to do that is to have the written permission of Chaosium.

Begin by consulting this page to know who they are and what they want to publish:

Chaosium Inc. - What is Chaosium? –

If they are interested by what you wrote, they may even want to publish it themselves!

Then, write to them and just ask them the permission.

Chaosium, Inc.

22568 Mission Blvd. #423

Hayward CA 94541 U.S.A.

The worse than you risk is the answer: no.

Of course, don't forget to put BRP's author names on your credit list.

[Witigis]

The only legal way to do that is to have the written permission of Chaosium.

Begin by consulting this page to know who they are and what they want to publish:

Chaosium Inc. - What is Chaosium? –

If they are interested by what you wrote, they may even want to publish it themselves!

Then, write to them and just ask them the permission.

Chaosium, Inc.

22568 Mission Blvd. #423

Hayward CA 94541 U.S.A.

The worse than you risk is the answer: no.

Of course, don't forget to put BRP's author names on your credit list.

Thanks Gollum,

I just wrote an email to Dustin@chaosium.com

Well, I will see how they react. I never thought of publishing something before. All the work was just intended for my personal use, but I guess my friends are right, it would be a shame not to share - and if there is some money in it, well, why not - though this not mandatory

[Witigis]

If you're prepared to do some more work you could take Legend or the Mongoose Runequest II system document which describes the game mechanisms in OGL format and weld that to your system and provide the OGL licence document in the package.

You are also up against the recently completed Achtung Cthulhu kickstarter which is a professionally produced work using the same background and the BRP system http://basicroleplaying.com/call-cthulhu/achtung-cthulhu-kickstarter-3241/

HTH

Hmmm, I do not know the Runequest II system (though I still have the first Runequest system somewhere). Fact is, I rewrote some rules, or even invented them, like the vehicle combat rules. I have had a look at the Achtung Cthulhu system last week and bought some of their supplements to have a look at them, and while they share the setting, their focus is totally different. mine is on military roleplaying , theirs is (as far as I understand) stiull playing Cthulhu. But, I admit, it really, really looks interesting (well, I am playing CoC as well)...

[nclarke]

You might want to check the 'net regarding submissions to Chaosium. People are still waiting for a response to their submissions to the last Adventure contest. Authors have consistently noted that communication with Chaosium is uneven to say the least. So don't expect a quick response although your work may be so good that they jump on it. AFAIK they are currently working on publishing a revised and updated Horror on the Orient Express and the 7 edition CoC rulebook so their schedule may be a bit full.

You might try contacting Mongoose and seeing if they are interested in publishing your work as their Legend system is proving to be quite popular.

What market research have you done regarding your game? What competing RPG's are there in the same market segment?

[Witigis]

Well, I am used to long time waiting in roleplaying (I played Harnmaster once...), so this isn´t much of a problem. To your questions: As I originally didn´t even think about publishing, I haven´t done any market research as such, but before I started to write my own subsystem, I did look for WWII roleplaying games on the market. There is the GURPS 3rd edition WWII roleplaying series, which I find absolutely great and well done, and I used GURPS as a system for WWII even before they brought out this series. Unfortunately, GURPS is really deadly in combat (much more so than BRP, if you play with the double hit points rule, IMHO), the vehicle-building could be really annoying, and, most importantly, the series is dead (they lost me with GURPS 4th). Other than that, I recall WWII for D20 rules, which I found lacking in several aspects (can´t remember the name right now, think it was Weird War II). Well, then there is Achtung Cthulhu, already mentioned above, and that is all I know. Oh, no, I forgot Savage Worlds, which succeeded the D20 system in many aspects - but frankly, I am playing Savage Worlds currently as a player and I do not really like it. I am not too much of the story-telling roleplaying type, y´know

[rust]

I don't know about German copyright law so you may be safe putting it on-line in Germany ...

I would not recommend that. The material's size is clearly beyond that of a normal fan project,

and since it is written in English it is likely to come to Chaosium's attention sooner or later.

The only good way I see to handle this is indeed to contact Chaosium and ask for their permis-

sion.

[Gollum]

There is the GURPS 3rd edition WWII roleplaying series, which I find absolutely great and well done, and I used GURPS as a system for WWII even before they brought out this series. Unfortunately, GURPS is really deadly in combat (much more so than BRP,

What???

if you play with the double hit points rule, IMHO)

Oh, yes! I agree with you then.

I played GURPS a lot (third edition and fourth edition). GURPS may be deadly, especially with guns, but since the character can be still alive with negative hit points, the chance of surviving injuries are much higher than with the BRP... In BRP, two punches from a quite strong martial artist kill an average man most of the time.

Punch from the strong martial artist: 1D3+1D3+1D4 (average 6.5). Average man: 12 Hit Points.

[Atgxtg]

Just how intergrated are the rules with the setting?

In the long run you might want to (or have to) go it without Chaosium's approval and without BRP. Now it is possible to come up with something fairly similar as long as you don't cut & paste text, terms and descriptions right out of BRP. Several people have done so to get their own projects off the ground, or to keep them going without Chaosium's support.

Using one of the alternates or working up your own might be the only way you'll be able to sell your WWII book. The good thing is that if you do end up going that route, you don't need most of the stuff in BRP in a WWII setting.

Good Luck with your submission, but be prepared.

[Witigis]

Just how intergrated are the rules with the setting?

In the long run you might want to (or have to) go it without Chaosium's approval and without BRP. Now it is possible to come up with something fairly similar as long as you don't cut & paste text, terms and descriptions right out of BRP. Several people have done so to get their own projects off the ground, or to keep them going without Chaosium's support.

That is a point I have been thinking of the last few days, because, as far as I understand copyright law (which in some parts seems to be very similar in Germany and the U.S.), may work is more or less derivative, i.e. I used a great part of BRP, but I also invented a lot of content myself. It is difficult to summarize this in a single post, but it may be outlined as follows:

Setting Background: I provided two different backgrouns, one purely historicol, the second an alternative background by my own.

Character Creation: This section is almost completely BRP, although I changed some skills, added some skills and game mechanics (for example, how to determine rank on military characters). I also reworked the list of occupations, taking some ideas from BRP or CoC, but adding a good deal of my own (such as extensive lists of military occupations, or civilian occupations like Hitler Youth or Partisan).

General Game System: This is BRP again.

Combat System: Here there are the most differences: While the melee combat is essential the same as in BRP, I nevertheless changed or modified some of the rules, especially some of BRPs spot rules. The rules for missile combat, on the other hand have been heavily modified, especially so for handling explosions or using indirect fire weapons - here there is the older Twilight 2000 legacy still recognizable, albeit more in form and topics, than in game mechanics. This is even more true for the vehicle combat system, which has almost nothing to do with BRP and is my own by, lets say, 95%.

I also added other setting-related rules, like flamethrowers, mines, or using demolitions, and changed the armor point system (this one only slightly, to better fit in some historical damage values without changing weapon damage to much).

Several chapters after that are not to be found in BRP, they are again a legacy of Twilight 2000, such as the rules of maintenance for vehicles and overall survival of the characters (my alternative time line opens the setting to some sort of post-apocalyptic WWII gaming, while it is possible without any change to play anytime in the historical context (BTW, my game is called 1946-A Shattered World). I also included (small scale) mass combat rules, to give a GM the possibility to fit the characters story within the fate of a larger unit, if he or she wants so.

I developed spotting rules, for encounters as well as a lot of optional rules throughout the game (giving it the modular character I like on BRP), and some other things more. Than I added a quite large general equipment chapter, but without any firearms, as I added these as a weapon supplement, detailing 339 (exactly) small arms, from pistols to AT rifles, and also 134 heavy weapons, from mortars to AT mines and hand grenades (including such niceties as the 80 cm railroad gun Schwerer Gustav (thats more for fun than for actual game use, I admit). The same is true of literally hundreds of vehicles. Every weapon and vehicle is coming with complete game stats and pictures (yep, this is another possible copyright issue, but of that I can take care with some more time by doing the drawings myself).

Well, now this is

The good thing is that if you do end up going that route, you don't need most of the stuff in BRP in a WWII setting.

And that is why I did all the above mentioned changes and additions...

[Witigis]

Uuurgh, I really dislike the keyboard of my notebook, sorry for the typing errors...

[Witigis]

What???

GURPS may be deadly, especially with guns, but since the character can be still alive with negative hit points, the chance of surviving injuries are much higher than with the BRP... In BRP, two punches from a quite strong martial artist kill an average man most of the time.

Punch from the strong martial artist: 1D3+1D3+1D4 (average 6.5). Average man: 12 Hit Points.

I wholeheartedly agree with you, but then I did not mention, that I softed BRP up a bit. First, I use the optional hit point location system throughout my books. Then, a character being reduced to 0 hit points dies after 10 combat turns, instead of one.

Combined with the rule for double hit points, this means, a average man will have 10 hit points chest, 8 head legs, and abdomen, and 6 arms (fractions rounded up). If I take the average damage value of a rifle (2D6+4, thus 11), he will be down on an average chest hit (and out of the fight), but not dead (yet, I added an optional rule, by which a chest or head hit may be resolved on the resistance table with the damage as active factor against the characters CON as passive factor, to determine if such a hit is immediately fatal, not to be used against player characters, mind).

Oh, and again: By publishing, I do not mean SELLING it. I would be happy just to make it available to anyone interested. Thing is, as I am not considéring to compete on the rpg market (I am earning my money quite conventionally), I also do not want to run into trouble with anyone or a company relying on selling their products. (But, well, IF someone is offering me money for it, I wont object, too).

Edited April 18, 2013 by Witigis

[Gollum]

I wholeheartedly agree with you, but then I did not mention, that I softed BRP up a bit. First, I use the optional hit point location system throughout my books. Then, a character being reduced to 0 hit points dies after 10 combat turns, instead of one.

Combined with the rule for double hit points, this means, a average man will have 10 hit points chest, 8 head legs, and abdomen, and 6 arms (fractions rounded up). If I take the average damage value of a rifle (2D6+4, thus 11), he will be down on an average chest hit (and out of the fight), but not dead (yet, I added an optional rule, by which a chest or head hit may be resolved on the resistance table with the damage as active factor against the characters CON as passive factor, to determine if such a hit is immediately fatal, not to be used against player characters, mind).

Fine. It changes things a lot, indeed, and surely makes very interesting optional rules.

Oh, and again: By publishing, I do not mean SELLING it. I would be happy just to make it available to anyone interested.

Did you become clear of that in your email to Dustin@chaosium.com? Publishing it for free, as a grateful fan, can lead to a very different answer than publishing it for earning some money (even if the amount involved is very low).

When a fan copy a rule or text, it's a tribute (as long as the name of the original author is written). But when an other payed author copy a rule or text, it becomes plagiarism.

[Atgxtg]

Sounds like you might want to consider just releasing it as a free fanbook, like some others that have been floating around. You could even cut out the stuff that is duplicated in the BRP core rules, or even break it up into several sections. If you're not interested in a profit, then a free PDF has some advantages. RPG companies are also a lot more forgiving with fan-produced free stuff than with somebody making a profit off of the company's RPG.

[pansophy]

When I did the BRP 2300AD stuff, it was not a problem at all to get permission from Marc Miller to use his setting material and the artists to use their already published artwork. In fact, they offered me some more art to use it for free!

All I had to do is a) give credit to them and copy only necessary setting information out of the books. So, I was able to add some fluff, but not too much that would make their products obsolete. Over all it was a fun thing to do and everybody was very supportive.

Personally I would prefer to see the BGB used as the "main rule book" and new settings "overriding" some parts of it. A good example is Mythic Iceland and the Alephtar setting books. The tell you in a chapter which rules are modified and what skills are used different or were renamed. Then they tell you which optional rules to use (or recommend). Essentially this makes it very easy to just publish the setting without the need of having it approved by Chaosium (at least if you do it on a non-profit basis).

Maybe Nick can tell you more about how it would work when you publish it this way as a commercial company.

On the other hand: if you want to have all the rules & setting in one book, I guess you would need to use an OGL rule system or permission of the owner. But I like the idea of having the rule book and the setting book separate better.

[Bilharzia]

Why not publish it using Legend and add your own modifications?

Legend - Mongoose | Legend | DriveThruRPG.com

It uses the Open Game Licence so you are free to publish your game using the Legend rules without the need to seek permission. This would also mean that your materials would be compatible with BRP-style game systems generally.

The Legend system is essentially Mongoose Runequest II with some changes to remove the setting context.

Legend

You could also use OpenQuest:

http://openquestrpg.com/

http://basicroleplaying.com/openquest/

Edited April 18, 2013 by Bilharzia
+OpenQuest

[pansophy]

Both systems (OQ & Legend) do not offer rules for firearms or modern settings, though. Maybe RQ6 with the Firearms add-on is worth a try, but then again, it is a commercial license.

[Atgxtg]

Why not publish it using Legend and add your own modifications?

This would also mean that your materials would be compatible with BRP-style game systems generally.

I think you just answered your own question. He would have to change things from BRP to Legend. That's a pretty significant set of rule changes.

Say, I wonder just how much Twilight:2000 is in it? That could be another problem if some sections are too similar the GDW's game.

[vagabond]

When I did the BRP 2300AD stuff, it was not a problem at all to get permission from Marc Miller to use his setting material and the artists to use their already published artwork. In fact, they offered me some more art to use it for free!

All I had to do is a) give credit to them and copy only necessary setting information out of the books. So, I was able to add some fluff, but not too much that would make their products obsolete. Over all it was a fun thing to do and everybody was very supportive.

Personally I would prefer to see the BGB used as the "main rule book" and new settings "overriding" some parts of it. A good example is Mythic Iceland and the Alephtar setting books. The tell you in a chapter which rules are modified and what skills are used different or were renamed. Then they tell you which optional rules to use (or recommend). Essentially this makes it very easy to just publish the setting without the need of having it approved by Chaosium (at least if you do it on a non-profit basis).

Maybe Nick can tell you more about how it would work when you publish it this way as a commercial company.

On the other hand: if you want to have all the rules & setting in one book, I guess you would need to use an OGL rule system or permission of the owner. But I like the idea of having the rule book and the setting book separate better.

I have the same arrangement with Miles Teves and Andrew Leker of Jorune fame - I can "release" free stuff with Miles' art and official Jorune IP, as long as I credit appropriately. Operative words being "free" and "credit".

Ian

[Bilharzia]

I think you just answered your own question. He would have to change things from BRP to Legend. That's a pretty significant set of rule changes.

I don't think so, if you read the changes he has already made it sounds like he has added significantly to skills and firearms which put it beyond both BRP and Legend and OpenQuest. The point is in that case you may as well publish using Legend or OpenQuest than worry about issues with BRP. Of course if you significantly re-write any game system you could publish it as your own.

[Witigis]

Okay, first I´d like to thank you all for your contributions - they provide me with a lot of ideas and new options to think about. At this moment, I recognize three different issues:

a) BRP Game Mechanics: After the Legend system has been mentioned, I simply purchased it on DriveThru (ONE dollar!!). As far as I can recognize, it would require a major reworking of my setting to adjust it to Legend (and there would probably still be some BRP in it). Depending on Chaosiums point of view, the easiest thing for me is to leave some parts of the game mechanics out of my core rules (like the chapter on the game system, or the skills which I did not change frome the BRP Core rules). This would make my game only playable with the BRP Core Rules, and I guess that would work out fine. I would not like to leave out all the combat the rules and options I took from BRP, because this would be almost as much a major rearrangement as rewriting the whole stuff for a different, albeit similar OGL system.

Twilight 2000: There are still parts in my core rules which are similar in appearance to old GDWs Twilight: 2000, but as the underlying game mechanics have changed almost completely, I , for my part, do not think these would cause any problems - especially because the license is AFAIK now with Games Studio. They published Twilight 2013, an entirely new game which I did not use (though I own it).

c) Artwork and pictures: In fact, this may be the greatest issue, because the pictures of weapons and vehicles are mostly artwork, which I found on the Internet. I cannot simply use them, and it will in some cases most likely difficult to obtain permission. For this, I see two possible solutions, first, to publish the material as text only, this would mean that I would leave the layout of my pdfs as it is, but making the art unrecognizable. Every one using the books would have to organize the necessary pictures on its own (I could provide a lot of links, though). On the other hand, I might opt to change the appearance and quality of the art so much, that the artists may see no reason to object (I guess I would still need their permission).

I am thinking of uploading some examples of my work (only small parts hopefully not causing one of the above issues), so you can get a better idea of what it looks like.

[rogerd]

There is of course the OGL Renaissance rules which may of help by Cakebread and Walton, and best of all they're free. Now there are two bolt-on supplements for this, namely Reanissance Deluxe (has fantasy races) & Clockwork & Chivalry (kinda like Da Vinci's Demons).

[soltakss]

I think you just answered your own question. He would have to change things from BRP to Legend. That's a pretty significant set of rule changes.

Well, actually you don't. It is possible to publish something written for BRP and use the Legend Compatible logo without it being compatible with Legend. You just have to ensure that you don't include any rules from within BRP, or if you do then ensure that they are clearly not OGC material.

The Legend Compatible licence doesn't say that the product has to be compatible with Legend!

[Atgxtg]

Well, actually you don't. It is possible to publish something written for BRP and use the Legend Compatible logo without it being compatible with Legend. You just have to ensure that you don't include any rules from within BRP, or if you do then ensure that they are clearly not OGC material.

The Legend Compatible licence doesn't say that the product has to be compatible with Legend!

Interesting, but I can't see why someone would do that. THey could try to tap the Lengends market base, but that would probably work against them once people realsed the book wasn't compatible with Legends.

If somebody removes the BRP specfic stuff from a supplment, then they could publish it without Legend.