Movement

[Chaot]

You've got the wolf and the halfling at the same speed with that formula though. I think a wolf should be able to run down a halfling pretty easy.

Yeah, that's why I augment MOV by movement skills (Run, Swim, Climb, Drive, etc.)

My basic wolf would probably start out with a Run skill of 60%, my basic Halfling with a Run of 25% (I'm being generous here). The wolf's at MOV 7 and the Halfling's at MOV 3. The wolf runs down the Halfling easily. The only reason why the Halfling can conceivably compete with the wolf their inhuman +10 to their Dex roll.

Personally, I've never liked formulae for working things like this out.

What I prefer to do is to compare with existing movement rates. So, is a leopard as fast as a tiger? You don't need exact matches, after all, because of the integer numbers.

I understand where you're coming from, but I've never liked the monolithic MOV stat. I know many 'humans' who are consistently faster than me, and many who are consistently slower. Instead of assigning MOV stats by caveat or introducing a Speed stat I use this little formula, and despite the game not being written with movement being dependent on Size and Dexterity in mind, I've had no trouble with it in the past.

So, in my game, some sort of chase usually pops up at least once a session. I ask their MOV and their pertinent skill and just do the math in my head. A couple of MOV:MOV, maybe some Stamina rolls, and some scenic description (allowing segments into the race so that the players can throw in some loops and do interesting things), and the chase is over. Very easy, very effective.

Now, my approach is definitely not for everyone. I play fast and loose on what MOV actually means. I only use it as a comparison Stat, not a hard value. But I figure if SIZ is height and weight, and DEX is dexterity and agility, and INT is intelligence and wisdom a soft MOV stat wouldn't be out of place. Just putting it out their for those who might be interested.

[threedeesix]

That isn't because Height is more important. It has to do with something known as the square-cube law. Basically if you take an object (or person) and double it's size (twice the height, width, depth) you cube the mass.

I wasn't implying that it was more important as much as reworked so it is more dependent on it.

In other words, in RQ3, if you were going to create yourself as a character you would look up your weight on the SIZ table to find what your SIZ is. There is no overlap so it's cut and dry.

When I did my conversion of Selene from the movie Underworld, I looked up

the height and weight of Kate Beckinsale on the internet to determine her SIZ, she weights 115lbs and is 5'6" tall.

Looking up 115lbs in BRP means she falls between SIZ 6 and SIZ 13. That’s a large spread and would involve me having to guess what SIZ to give her.

Now, looking up her height of 5’6” (66”) gives me a possible SIZ of 10 or 11. This is much easier to work with. I settled with a SIZ 10 as Kate looks on the petite size.

SIZ Height Weight

6 49–54 51–120

7 55–59 61–140

8 60–62 80–160

9 62–64 85–180

10 64–66 90–200

11 66–68 95–220

12 68–70 100–240

13 70–72 110–260

I'm sorry if I derailed this thread, I just wanted to clarify why I think SIZ is more dependent on height than weight in the new BRP.

Rod

[threedeesix]

So, using the BRP0 rules and my simple equation (1'm assuming Humans are 3d6 with an average of 11)

I'm not sure if the above comment was referring to SIZ. If it was then the human SIZ is 2D6+6 for an average of 13.

Rod

[Chaot]

Doh. Yeah, Siz. I've used 3d6 for such a long time I tend to forget it's officially 2d6+6. My bad.

[Atgxtg]

I wasn't implying that it was more important as much as reworked so it is more dependent on it.

In other words, in RQ3, if you were going to create yourself as a character you would look up your weight on the SIZ table to find what your SIZ is. There is no overlap so it's cut and dry.

[skull]

I did a simular move rate system based on Str+dex and i calculated move values for melee combat, non-melee and the mph value. i also calculated animals as well. im not sure how easy it would be to incorporate into brp . considering i was designed off of call of cthulhu might have to up the animal move rates considering COC AND BRP have different move rates respective for a human coc =8 BRP= 10

if anyone wants to try it out let me know

[Trifletraxor]

I find it hard to find real life data on the speed of various animals. You might get something about "fastest record" but nothing for average walk, trotting and normal max.

SGL.

[Atgxtg]

I find it hard to find real life data on the speed of various animals. You might get something about "fastest record" but nothing for average walk, trotting and normal max.

SGL.

That's because it is hard to measure. Unlike people, animals rarely cooperate with such tests.

That's why earlier I posted how I could find several different speeds for animals, but that they didn't all match up with each

other. You can get reliable data for horses, dogs and other animals that have been domesticaled, but it hard to get a big enough sampling size for things like chipmunks.

[rust]

I find it hard to find real life data on the speed of various animals. You might get something about "fastest record" but nothing for average walk, trotting and normal max.

It seems the only somewhat reliable speed measurements of animals are those of

fleeing animals, which run at their maximum individual speed to escape some dan-

ger - otherwise you can never be certain that the animal really runs as fast as it

can, even if it is hunting or attacking.

This makes it difficult to get any useful speed measurements for many predators

as well as many of the big herbivores, simply because they rarely have to run for

their lives - there is not much that could threaten an elephant, a tiger or an orca

enough to make them flee in panic.

[Atgxtg]

On the plus side, it makes it very difficult to prove any speeds we select as wrong.

If most animals don't run at thier full speed most of the time, then they probably won't be running at full speed during most gaming situations either.

[Al.]

If you are going the formular route then i would suggest basing on Dex and Str rather than Dex and Siz

As bigger beasties with longer legs will tend to have bigger Str as well

Also makes stronger more athletic types faster than fatties

Its the way PenDragon did it

I would also suggest that denominator should be different for quadrapeds and flying animals and probably birds as even faster than other less efficient fliers

So an example (subject to tweaking no doubt)

Biped Mov = (Dex+Str)/5

Quadraped Mov = (Dex+Str)/3

Flying Mov = (Dex+Str)/2

Birds Mov = (Dex+Str)

Using the Athletics or Running skill was done in one of the RQIII adventures

The route (or individual stages maybe) took a set number of strike ranks to run and success, special or critical all reduced this

[rust]

If you are going the formular route then i would suggest basing on Dex and Str rather than Dex and Siz

(...)

Quadraped Mov = (Dex+Str)/3

The problem is that the fastest quadrupeds are neither very strong nor very big.

A slender and comparatively small cheetah can run circles around a much stron-

ger and bigger lion or tiger, and an antelope can do the same with an elephant

or a rhinoceros.

So, to make the formula work, one would have to give the cheetah, the antelope

and so on an incredibly high and completely implausible dexterity.

[Al.]

The problem is that the fastest quadrupeds are neither very strong nor very big.

A slender and comparatively small cheetah can run circles around a much stron-

ger and bigger lion or tiger, and an antelope can do the same with an elephant

or a rhinoceros.

So, to make the formula work, one would have to give the cheetah, the antelope

and so on an incredibly high and completely implausible dexterity.

There is much truth in what you write

Perchance I was on a less wrong track by having different calc for birds vs. other fliers

et voila

So an example (still subject to tweaking no doubt)

Biped Mov = (Dex+Str)/5

Quadraped Mov = (Dex+Str)/4

Sprinter Quadraped = (Dex+Str)/3

Flying Mov = (Dex+Str)/2

Birds Mov = (Dex+Str)

Or perhaps

Biped Mov = (Dex+Str)/5

Quadraped Mov = (Dex+Str)/3

Sprinter Quadraped = (Dex+Str+21)/3

Flying Mov = (Dex+Str)/2

Birds Mov = (Dex+Str+21)/2

Edited February 16, 2010 by Al.
a ha that would be telling

[Atgxtg]

The problem is that the fastest quadrupeds are neither very strong nor very big.

A slender and comparatively small cheetah can run circles around a much stron-

ger and bigger lion or tiger, and an antelope can do the same with an elephant

or a rhinoceros.

So, to make the formula work, one would have to give the cheetah, the antelope

and so on an incredibly high and completely implausible dexterity.

The solution, also from Pendragon is to allow some animals to deviate for the formula. For instance you could allow up to 2x speed (or 1/2 speed) for certain creatures. So, for example, a cheetah might have stats that are similar to a panther's but have 2x the Mov.The tweaking is really the best way to handle this, since any formula based move is mostly junk anyway.

[rust]

The tweaking is really the best way to handle this, since any formula based move is mostly junk anyway.

Yep, a formula would have to consider far too many factors, for example where the

creature lives (speed is more useful on the steppe than in a dense jungle), whether it

is predator or prey (the predators usually are faster than their prey), and dozens of

other things.

In the end one would probably need a different formula for each creature, and so I

decided the speed for each creature of my Varun setting individually to fit it into the

"system" of the biosphere.

A nice side effect is that the various creatures now have a wider range of speeds,

with values across the entire scale, while any formula would tend to generate only a

limited number of possible results.

[Atgxtg]

Yep, a formula would have to consider far too many factors, for example where the

creature lives (speed is more useful on the steppe than in a dense jungle), whether it

is predator or prey (the predators usually are faster than their prey), and dozens of

other things.

In the end one would probably need a different formula for each creature, and so I

decided the speed for each creature of my Varun setting individually to fit it into the

"system" of the biosphere.

Yeah. I glad you took that in the spirirt it was intended. There are simply too many factors to do up something like this just on the attributes and body form factor. In BRP terms most of the large carnivores (bear, lion) have about the same stats and are all quadrupeds. So they would all end up with about the same MOV score,

PLus even the attribute scores aren't always accurate for this. For example, birds actually have a lot of muscle mass. It is just that the muscle is there to provide the power needed for flight, and isn't usable in the same ways STR in for bigpeds and quadrupeds.

What might be an option would be to keep a MOV score by species and just increse or reduce it for atypical attributes. So a Strong, large or quick human might get a +1 or +2 to MOV.

[rust]

What might be an option would be to keep a MOV score by species and just increse or reduce it for atypical attributes. So a Strong, large or quick human might get a +1 or +2 to MOV.

I was thinking about something like this for the Swim skill in my Varun setting. In my view

an experienced and highly skilled swimmer who uses Swim as one of his professional skills

should probably have a higher Swim MOV than someone who is only an occasional "hobby

swimmer". Therefore my setting's Dolphineers will all get a Swim MOV of 6 instead of the

usual 5.

[Atgxtg]

Makes sense to me. Tieing the move to the swim% makes sense to me.

Something like the Sepcial Success chance in meters per round seems good. Tat would work out to about 1/3 the special chance for a MOV score, or a MOV of skill/15.

[rust]

Tat would work out to about 1/3 the special chance for a MOV score, or a MOV of skill/15.

Skill/15 seems a bit too tough for my purpose, a character would need a

Swim skill of 75 % to get the basic MOV 5 or 90 % to get MOV 6.

I prefer to give just a MOV+1 to those characters who are "professional

swimmers".

[SDLeary]

The problem is that the fastest quadrupeds are neither very strong nor very big.

A slender and comparatively small cheetah can run circles around a much stron-

ger and bigger lion or tiger, and an antelope can do the same with an elephant

or a rhinoceros.

So, to make the formula work, one would have to give the cheetah, the antelope

and so on an incredibly high and completely implausible dexterity.

Insert Siz (Mass) as a negative modifier and things should work out.

SDLeary

EDIT: Nix that... now that I've thought about it for a few seconds that would only work in a few cases.

Edited February 17, 2010 by SDLeary
rethinking

[Atgxtg]

Insert Siz (Mass) as a negative modifier and things should work out.

SDLeary

EDIT: Nix that... now that I've thought about it for a few seconds that would only work in a few cases.

Yeah. Plus based on the evidence we have high SIZ actually translates into faster movment. The signle biggest factor for the move rate in humans is length of stride. Apparently we all walk and run about the same number of strides per minute. People with larger strides (taller) therfore move proportially faster.

[SDLeary]

Yeah. Plus based on the evidence we have high SIZ actually translates into faster movment. The signle biggest factor for the move rate in humans is length of stride. Apparently we all walk and run about the same number of strides per minute. People with larger strides (taller) therfore move proportially faster.

Yes, but only if their strength can overcome their body mass. Humans were what I was thinking of when I proposed the Siz modifier. With two 6' individuals, one weighing 180 lbs, and the other 300 lbs, its unlikely that the latter would be able to run as fast; assuming same leg length, etc.

SDLeary

[rust]

With two 6' individuals, one weighing 180 lbs, and the other 300 lbs, its unlikely that the latter would be able to run as fast; assuming same leg length, etc.

Just imagine the first one to be an untrained elderly bureaucrat and the second one a

young and well muscled Marine, and all bets are off.

[SDLeary]

Just imagine the first one to be an untrained elderly bureaucrat and the second one a

young and well muscled Marine, and all bets are off.

That would be an instance of age reducing the strength of the person, and thus not being able to overcome size.

SDLeary

[Atgxtg]

Yes, but only if their strength can overcome their body mass. Humans were what I was thinking of when I proposed the Siz modifier. With two 6' individuals, one weighing 180 lbs, and the other 300 lbs, its unlikely that the latter would be able to run as fast; assuming same leg length, etc.

SDLeary

The problem is SIZ represents both height and mass. So you can't really tae off for it. Like I mentioned earlier, length of stride is the single biggest factor for speed among humans, and that is predominately a function of SIZ/height. So, unless we separate hight and mass somehow, we can't really take off for mass.

We can assume that someone with a high SIZ and low STR and/or low CON is just short and flabby, but that might not be the case. STR especially as it functions in the game, is really more a measure of excess STR. That is, what muscle power the character has left over to affect things after moving his own body around.

It's really about the only way the STR 3, SIZ 18 character could exist.