Matt Posted June 16, 2013 Share Posted June 16, 2013 Back to the original point (if I may): Just tried to get more info on the new Magic World. If you Google "chaosium brp magic world review" you get nothing, and less than nothing. In fact most of the hits talk about it coming out, not that it is out. On Amazon the book only has 2 reviews. Basically trying to figure out why so little info for these games...why are dedicated RPG sites the only place they get mentioned if at all?. I know about BRP, I'm looking for BRP books, and even I can't find much about them...so a "civilian" is going to have zero chance to find out about them. I guess I'm a "semi-civilian" as I seldom go to game stores or visit RPG sites (until recent weeks). I would never have heard of about 95% of the games and products mentioned on this site. I didn't even know there was a BRP game until I saw it on the shelf one day. RPG makers in general do a terrible job marketing and placing their products. By the time I even knew Hero had a 6th edition, it was already out of print and the local game shop barely carried any of the supporting line of products and none of the main books. Same is true of most games if you aren't a cognoscenti already in the loop. Seems like a vicious circle as they need to sell more to afford better marketing, but I won't buy a product I have insuficient information on and can't look at in a store to see for myself. Quote http://mattssuperheroes.blogspot.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nclarke Posted June 16, 2013 Share Posted June 16, 2013 tgcb, I'm not sure that you understand exactly how search engines work. Putting all those terms into the search requires all of them to be present in the highest ranking results. Chances are that someone typing up a review isn't going to put those words in to their review and hence a lack of results. Using the search terms "magic world" review chaosium I get much more targeted information. As with all search engines putting the right terms in gets the bets information out. Quote Nigel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tgcb Posted June 16, 2013 Author Share Posted June 16, 2013 tgcb, I'm not sure that you understand exactly how search engines work. Putting all those terms into the search requires all of them to be present in the highest ranking results. Chances are that someone typing up a review isn't going to put those words in to their review and hence a lack of results. Using the search terms "magic world" review chaosium I get much more targeted information. As with all search engines putting the right terms in gets the bets information out. Well, I've been in IT since 1981...so I'm pretty clear how a search engine works. (Some of us have been on the Net before it was the Internet. ) In any case, ""magic world" review chaosium" gets pretty much the same list as "chaosium brp magic world" in Google (in fact, on the 1st Google page - which is the only page most people care about - I count what I would say as "reviews" as 5 the way I did it an only 4 the way you did it...but who's counting?)....not to mention I was just using that as an example. Again, I think the point is that it's hard to find anything about these games...harder than it should be in my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mankcam Posted June 16, 2013 Share Posted June 16, 2013 I agree that you have to know what you're seeking in order to find out more about BRP. However this has always been the case, and the big rpgs like D&D/Pathfinder, Warhammer, World of Darkness, Savage Worlds, etc also suffer this to a lesser extent. The whole RPG gaming industry is a fringe hobby after all. Not sure why, this has been one of life's enigmas for me as well... Quote " Sure it's fun, but it is also well known that a D20 roll and an AC is no match against a hefty swing of a D100% and a D20 Hit Location Table!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rust Posted June 17, 2013 Share Posted June 17, 2013 Basically trying to figure out why so little info for these games...why are dedicated RPG sites the only place they get mentioned if at all?. According to the Chaosium website Magic World has now been downloaded 374 times. Since only a very small percentage of the people who bought a game writes reviews, one can expect only a very low number of reviews on the Internet. The interests and opinions of a few hundred people remain al- most invisible on the general Internet. Quote "Mind like parachute, function only when open." (Charlie Chan) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nclarke Posted June 17, 2013 Share Posted June 17, 2013 Well, I've been in IT since 1981...so I'm pretty clear how a search engine works. (Some of us have been on the Net before it was the Internet. ) In any case, ""magic world" review chaosium" gets pretty much the same list as "chaosium brp magic world" in Google (in fact, on the 1st Google page - which is the only page most people care about - I count what I would say as "reviews" as 5 the way I did it an only 4 the way you did it...but who's counting?)....not to mention I was just using that as an example. Again, I think the point is that it's hard to find anything about these games...harder than it should be in my opinion. Ah-ha a pissing contest. Having built a UK101 in the 70's and written satellite and space shuttle code for NASA in the 90's and set up firewalls and developed web pages by hand in the early day's, I was running part of Lucent's world-wide corporate network in this century, I'm just as well qualified as you are. :-) If I were looking for a specific type of game I'd use the sites relevant to the subject of games to pinpoint options and not rely on a random search that is only good for turning up porn and advertisements :-) Quote Nigel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psychman Posted June 17, 2013 Share Posted June 17, 2013 consider Magic world at 276 PDF pages, and Runequest 6 at 458 Both are excellent at what they do, but RQ6 is more rule intensive. I'm considering doing a Lets read Magic World starting in July If you pick runequest 6, Best RQ6 Sheet evar Not that I have the skills to do better, but I left some comments on the character sheet, which while good, is lacking some bits in the magic sections and shows its roots in MRQ2. Hopefully he will update it, cause it is a nice one. Quote Clearly, "what I like" is awesome, and a well-considered, educated opinion. While "what other people like" is stupid, and just a bunch of made up gobbledygoook. - zomben Victor of the "I Bought, We Won" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tgcb Posted June 17, 2013 Author Share Posted June 17, 2013 (edited) Ah-ha a pissing contest. Having built a UK101 in the 70's and written satellite and space shuttle code for NASA in the 90's and set up firewalls and developed web pages by hand in the early day's, I was running part of Lucent's world-wide corporate network in this century, I'm just as well qualified as you are. :-) If I were looking for a specific type of game I'd use the sites relevant to the subject of games to pinpoint options and not rely on a random search that is only good for turning up porn and advertisements :-) Ah..the glory days of NASA in the 1990's. Isn't that when you boys crashed the Mars Climate Orbiter? (You may want to Google "metric to English conversion"...I can help if you want). In any case...was not trying to start any arguments. But isn't it frustrating that there are only 218 active members on this site? And that only 374 bought Magic World? Why hasn't anyone in the BRP world figured out how to market the system? Or is there just no one to market to? And before someone says "it's too hard to market an indie game"....I know many who play Munchkin and many more who play Settlers of Catan. Those companies figured it out somehow. I can find both of those games at the crappy toy store in the mall. As Android is doing with Linux, we need our "Android" to take BRP to the masses without them knowing it's BRP... (so can someone tell me how many copies an "average" non-WOTC RPG sells? If I sell 1000 could I consider myself a "hit"?) And once more back to the original point: I'm smart enough not to use Google to do my RPG searches. I want to learn about Chaosium's "Magic World". I go to Chaosium's site. I find "Magic World". I click on "Reviews"....and I find exactly zero reviews. So Google gives me 5 reviews and a very specific, pinpoint search gets me no reviews. In any case, I'm not buying your product because it appears no one else is either and I can't find enough information on it to take a leap of faith that it may be good. And I'm not saying I know how to "fix this"...just baffled that it occurs. But then again, I'm basically talking to myself here so what's the point? Edited June 17, 2013 by tgcb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rust Posted June 17, 2013 Share Posted June 17, 2013 Why hasn't anyone in the BRP world figured out how to market the system? a) Marketing is expensive, and the profit margin of a company like Chaosium is small. Settlers of Catan was produced and marketed by what is an international megacorpo- ration compared to the tiny Chaosium. The market is indeed small and already almost saturated when it comes to fantasy roleplaying games. There are days when looking at the many systems offered on for example DTRPG I get the suspicion that there are already more such games than ga- mers. Quote "Mind like parachute, function only when open." (Charlie Chan) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted June 17, 2013 Share Posted June 17, 2013 But doesn't the world need another hundred clones of Basic D&D? Quote http://mattssuperheroes.blogspot.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heimdallsgothi Posted June 17, 2013 Share Posted June 17, 2013 But if i want to play basic D&D Id just bust out with the Rules Cyclopedia, and actually play it BECMI was so much fun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tgcb Posted June 17, 2013 Author Share Posted June 17, 2013 But doesn't the world need another hundred clones of Basic D&D? No. Everyone should know the world only needs 78 more clones of Basic D&D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mankcam Posted June 17, 2013 Share Posted June 17, 2013 (edited) But then again, I'm basically talking to myself here so what's the point? Well try not to fumble your Sanity Roll! No, you have made good points. I have no idea why some companies have marketed better than others. But it is a plain truth that big glossy books with colours galore catch the eye better than little paper covers with black and white interiors. Most of the major rpgs have much better quality books than Chaosium, and that's about the sum of it. I remember it being much worse back in the '80s, so I think Chaosium's standards have generally increased since then, but the other rpgs still look much better in my bookcase. It's a crying shame, considering how I find BRP to be one of the most versatile rpgs systems on the market, and certainly my favourite in terms of familiarity with the mechanics. Given that this is the digital age, I believe any print run book needs to be hard cover otherwise most people will just have the content on their Tablets. I'm still waiting on the Design Mechanism to consider printing RQ6 in a hard cover, now that will be a good looking tome to have. But here I guess it all comes down to money in the end. More money comes from marketing, yet to market you need to spend money, so its all messed up. Any opportunity to elevate the BRP (and related games) profile in the gaming hobby would be great. BRP does tend to have more mature and perhaps more 'serious' gamers, and in that respect I don't feel it needs to grab in the adolescent munchkin market, but it does need to keep its profile fresh otherwise it won't be a dinosaur one day, it'll be a fossil I think RPGs in general have thrived with the internet, with sites such as this and the numerous G+ feeds springing up etc, as well as blogs, video blogs etc. This is a kinda renaissance for roleplaying at present, yet out in the 'physical' world it still risks the chance of being devoured by the computer gaming industry and the wargaming hobby (Warhammer shops in shopping malls, I'm looking at you). Any opportunity to support tabletop rpgs is good in my book. Still, I certainly won't be jumping to Pathfinder next week because its got a pretty book Edited June 17, 2013 by Mankcam Quote " Sure it's fun, but it is also well known that a D20 roll and an AC is no match against a hefty swing of a D100% and a D20 Hit Location Table!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tgcb Posted June 17, 2013 Author Share Posted June 17, 2013 (edited) Well try not to fumble your Sanity Roll! Too late! PS - and just to show I can "put my money where my mouth is", I just bought the "Magic World" PDF from Chaosium. PS#2 - And here's a related mystery. I'm also reading the Radiance RPG (free Players Handbook found here http://www.radiancerpg.com/). This is a very small game company, yet their books are gorgeous - lots of detail , great interior art, tons of aids for players and GM's. So if they can do it...why can't a BRP person do it?? Edited June 17, 2013 by tgcb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rust Posted June 17, 2013 Share Posted June 17, 2013 This is a very small game company, yet their books are gorgeous - lots of detail , great interior art, tons of aids for players and GM's. So if they can do it...why can't a BRP person do it?? While it is comparatively easy to create an excellent book as a hobby in one's spare time when one has a steady income, it becomes a lot more difficult when the hours spent on working on the book have to be paid for by the book's sale, because then the book's acceptable price and its print run limit the number of hours one can work on the book. Quote "Mind like parachute, function only when open." (Charlie Chan) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nclarke Posted June 18, 2013 Share Posted June 18, 2013 Ah..the glory days of NASA in the 1990's. Isn't that when you boys crashed the Mars Climate Orbiter? (You may want to Google "metric to English conversion"...I can help if you want). In any case...was not trying to start any arguments. But isn't it frustrating that there are only 218 active members on this site? And that only 374 bought Magic World? Why hasn't anyone in the BRP world figured out how to market the system? Or is there just no one to market to? And before someone says "it's too hard to market an indie game"....I know many who play Munchkin and many more who play Settlers of Catan. Those companies figured it out somehow. I can find both of those games at the crappy toy store in the mall. As Android is doing with Linux, we need our "Android" to take BRP to the masses without them knowing it's BRP... (so can someone tell me how many copies an "average" non-WOTC RPG sells? If I sell 1000 could I consider myself a "hit"?) And once more back to the original point: I'm smart enough not to use Google to do my RPG searches. I want to learn about Chaosium's "Magic World". I go to Chaosium's site. I find "Magic World". I click on "Reviews"....and I find exactly zero reviews. So Google gives me 5 reviews and a very specific, pinpoint search gets me no reviews. In any case, I'm not buying your product because it appears no one else is either and I can't find enough information on it to take a leap of faith that it may be good. And I'm not saying I know how to "fix this"...just baffled that it occurs. But then again, I'm basically talking to myself here so what's the point? Actually I'm British and converted from Imperial to Metric at college so did exams in both newton metres and foot lbs. I was only responsible for getting the things off the ground nothing to do with in-flight cock-ups. A sales rate 100 copies/month of a non WOTC game would be mega sales for most RPG companies. Typically an RPG book will sell in the 10's per month unless it's a winner of some sort of industry award and even those are skewed by mass voting of fanbois. A cross-over game like Settlers is popular because it's like Monopoly in that the rules can be explained to a newbie in five minutes and a game only takes 30-45 minutes. There is no investment in understanding the nuances of a game if you are playing it in the 'two couples after dinner' situation. Anyway to Magic World. Chasing down a review may not be easy but arriving here and locating Ben's threads should give you the information that it's an update of various earlier edition of the BRP engine with certain options switched on and others switched off. By extension reviews of these earlier versions should give you more to go on. Alternatively you could spend a day at one of the UK conventions and find someone to give you a taster game to see if you like it. Quote Nigel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nclarke Posted June 18, 2013 Share Posted June 18, 2013 Too late! PS - and just to show I can "put my money where my mouth is", I just bought the "Magic World" PDF from Chaosium. PS#2 - And here's a related mystery. I'm also reading the Radiance RPG (free Players Handbook found here Radiance RPG). This is a very small game company, yet their books are gorgeous - lots of detail , great interior art, tons of aids for players and GM's. So if they can do it...why can't a BRP person do it?? If you get a chance look at Cubicle 7's Laundry hardback. However sales wouldn't have justified a full colour interior. I worked out some numbers wrt publishing and came up with the following. They may be in the ballpark or possibly not. "Legend $12,000 + printing costs - 3500 copies to one address UKP8000 unit cost UKP2.20 236 pages 3500 copies $3.43 plus printing $2.10 if reformatting old copy. Writing - 2pgs/hr @$50/hr $5900 UK Min wage UKP6.08 = UKP717 Copyediting - basic 5 pgs/hr @$30/hr $1440 UKP6.08= UKP286 Proofreading - 11pgs/hr @$30/hr $660 UKP6.08=UKP130 Indexing - 14pgs/hr @$45/hr $765 UKP6.08=UKP102 Layout - 6pgs/hr @$60/hr $2400 UKP6.08=UKP239 UKP1475 at UK minimum wage say UKP1 for 1500 copies plus UKP2.20 for printing= UKP3.20 Runequest 6 $21465 + printing cost - 3500 copies to one address UKP18000 unit cost UKP5.05 456 pages 1000 copies UKP5500 unit cost UKP5.20 3500 copies $6.15 plus printing 1000 copies $21.47 plus printing Writing - 2pgs/hr @$50/hr $11400 Copyediting - basic 5 pgs/hr @$30/hr $2760 Proofreading - 11pgs/hr @$30/hr $1260 Indexing - 14pgs/hr @$45/hr $1485 Layout - 6pgs/hr @$60/hr $4560" So for something like Legend you have got to sell enough copies at a tenner to cover costs, so at least 550 copies before you break even. RQ6 is sold at about UKP 40 (CDN$62) so you need to sell some 400 copies to break even. However I suspect that Loz and Pete don't get paid for writing and do it for love rather than money (and their names in lights). A more knowledgeable person than I wrote somewhere else. "A 150 page book. I'll throw some rough numbers at the wall. That's about 100,000 words in a typical White Wolf format. Right now, industry standard for "the big guys" is about 3-5 cents per word, depending on how established you are. So the average is $0.04. That's a base $4,000 writing budget. Development costs about $0.02 per word, depending on the developer. That's another $2,000. Then editing's another half cent a word, there's $500. So just in text, we've got a budget of $6,500. Art needs to hit about every fourth page. If you have less than that, you'll have whiny internet trolls complaining about production values and yadda yadda. Art goes for about $100 per page. Between about ten splash pages, and 40 quarter page pieces (this factors in some half pages as well) you're sitting on $2,000 more. You need an art director. They'll usually net half that, so $1,000. Cover art? Another $500, unless your artist has worked for Wizards, in which case double it. There's $3,500. We're already at $10,000. We've got a book, kind of, right? Well, no. All that bullshit we've written and doodled needs laid out. That's about $3 per page. Layout tends to get shafted, there's $450. But hey, if they get repeat work, at least they've got templates to work from, right? We're at $10,450. Now keep in mind, these are all freelancers. You haven't even considered a staffer salary yet, if you're talking about an actual publisher, like White Wolf. But we've got a pretty pretty PDF. You could just sell that if you wanted. DrivethruRPG takes a straight cut of 30% off the top. So if you're selling a book for $10, that's $7 you get from every copy. Just to hit budget, you need to sell about 1,500 copies. This is not something you can expect most books to do in a reasonable time frame in the RPG industry. Particularly not for a supplement, whose absolute, maximum number of sales is equal to another book. In practice, it's rarely half that other book's sales. But you want the dead tree version, right? You like the smell? Awesome. This is where the numbers get sad. If you print, say, 5,000 books, you're going to be paying about $6 per copy after initial print costs and shipping. Alliance, the only major distributor in our industry, charges a whopping 70% markdown from MSRP. So for example, if you sold that book at MSRP of $30, print copies would make you (drumroll, please,) $3 each. Most game publishers tend to go toward $35 for their books these days. That means through Alliance, you're looking at a profit of about $4.50. Four dollars and fifty cents. To break even from shelves, you have to sell 2323 of that initial print run. Pretty sad, right? It's even sadder when you think that Alliance deals with about 500 total game shops. Even if each sold four copies (which they won't,) you won't break even. An aside: If you're in the business of making stuff, and distributing it to Walmart, they want 50% off MSRP. Walmart isn't known for its kindly business practice. Alliance wants 70% off. So there's a book, in a white room, with no context. Now, factor in the books that flopped. Your stronger titles have to subsidize those, because when they don't sell, Alliance ships them back at your expense. Say a book only sold 1,000 copies of the needed 2,500~. You need to sell 1,500 of another book to make up for it. Does this start to shed a little light on why they're priced where they are? Any more, and the market wouldn't bear it.?" You can see why RPG publishing will not make you enough money to spend it on marketing and word of mouth is the best that can be expected. Quote Nigel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tgcb Posted June 18, 2013 Author Share Posted June 18, 2013 (edited) Does this start to shed a little light on why they're priced where they are? Any more, and the market wouldn't bear it.?" You can see why RPG publishing will not make you enough money to spend it on marketing and word of mouth is the best that can be expected. Wow. Thanks for the detail. Wow. I knew the industry was fragmented...and I knew BRP was even more fragmented within itself...but I had a glimmer of hope that someway, somehow, someone could figure out a business model to make it grow. Now....I got nothin. Sounds like better Google results, better reviews on the companies own website, better reviews on Amazon...all would be a "waste of time". So you go from selling 500 copies to selling 504 copies after doing all that "extra work". Now why do I feel like I'm in quicksand after someone kicked me in the nether-regions? Ah ....because I wasn't fighting a "battle that can't be won", I've been "fighting a war that has already been lost". PS -I'm even more flabbergasted at that Radiance RPG I'm reading...their Players Handbook is free. And their GM book isn't much more. Maybe their resigned to the inevitable...that no matter how good their book looks it's not going to sell so why not give it away? Edited June 18, 2013 by tgcb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mankcam Posted June 18, 2013 Share Posted June 18, 2013 Yeah, I have that free Radiance PDF as well, and it looks great. Very nice layout with great art.I'm sure the hard copy of it would be great to have. Yes it does make you wonder why its a free PDF, given the high productions. Great setting as well, its a pity they went with D20 OGL instead of BRP! Quote " Sure it's fun, but it is also well known that a D20 roll and an AC is no match against a hefty swing of a D100% and a D20 Hit Location Table!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rust Posted June 18, 2013 Share Posted June 18, 2013 (edited) Maybe their resigned to the inevitable...that no matter how good their book looks it's not going to sell so why not give it away? A marketing strategy which has become increasingly common in the roleplaying games "industry" (well, "cottage industry" at best) is to offer a first book as a PDF for free or almost for free, ho- ping that enough people will download it, like it, and therefore become willing to pay for supple- ments and perhaps even a future print run of the originally free first PDF. In order for that stra- tegy to work, that first free book should be a truly convincing, great product. Unfortunately the strategy does not work that often, and when the first book turns out to be a heartbreaker or another kind of failure, the effort and money of usually many months of work has been wasted. So, spending the money on a lottery ticket might well be a better investment ... Or, as a friend of mine once remarked, it is very easy to become a roleplaying games author with a Lamborghini and a nice villa in Malibu, you only have to start your career with two Lamborghi- nis and two nice villas in Malibu. Edited June 18, 2013 by rust Quote "Mind like parachute, function only when open." (Charlie Chan) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heimdallsgothi Posted June 18, 2013 Share Posted June 18, 2013 Yea the best way to end up with a million dollars in the RPG industry is to start out with 2 million Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tgcb Posted June 19, 2013 Author Share Posted June 19, 2013 (edited) Or, as a friend of mine once remarked, it is very easy to become a roleplaying games author with a Lamborghini and a nice villa in Malibu, you only have to start your career with two Lamborghinis and two nice villas in Malibu. Yea the best way to end up with a million dollars in the RPG industry is to start out with 2 million I'm telling you both up front: I'm stealing those lines for future use. Edited June 19, 2013 by tgcb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Tar Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 I intend to make a spectacular success in the RPG industry....after I win the lottery. Quote 132/420 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BMonroe Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 According to the Chaosium website Magic World has now been downloaded 374 times. Since only a very small percentage of the people who bought a game writes reviews, one can expect only a very low number of reviews on the Internet. The interests and opinions of a few hundred people remain al- most invisible on the general Internet. Note that's only the number of PDFs sold.it has sold a -lot- more physical copies. It's doing quite well, actually. Quote Please don't contact me with Chaosium questions. I'm no longer associated with the company, and have no idea what the new management is doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rust Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 Note that's only the number of PDFs sold.it has sold a -lot- more physical copies. It's doing quite well, actually. In this case it is indeed doing very well - Congratulations ! Quote "Mind like parachute, function only when open." (Charlie Chan) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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