The World of Old-School RPG's is Entering Its Twilight

[rust]

[deleted because of Gygax thread]

[hdrider67]

I'm quite sanguine about leaving the task of trying to recruit "young gamers" by dragging them away from their mobile phones and playstations to companies with a marketing budget to do so. BRP will be (re)entering a pre-existing client base (which includes all of us), and its job will be to garner new gamers from amongst them. It already has a solid rules base which is intuitive and easily expandable - it now needs some "killer app" settings and scenarios to follow up and induce *existing* gamers to give it a go.

...

Cheers,

Sarah

dcell phones, PC games, and related junk are what led me to dust of an ons D&D book (Shhh don't tell!). A Week later, I bought d20 (MRQ was months from release) and I set about stealing my kids from the omnipresent distractions. After saving the frontier, I introduced them to MRQ (finally released) I'm not a great GM but they went on a quest to earn their names, got sick eating the pumpkin off a Jack O' Bear (silly).

I have added two player to the next Generation. I know three other dads with five kids total doing the same. Some form of RPG playing is a popular form of entertainment night around Acworth.

I do think it's going to change, maybe for their better buy gaming isn't going anywhere soon.

Especially if you guys get out there and have little trollkins for the games of the future.

[Mithras]

Agreed. I'm running games for my young ones, I tried the goodness that is RQ2 but it was a tad too difficult and I had to abandon in mid game! So I'm saving BRP for a glorious future, and sticking with Fighting Fantasy, OD&D and various homebrews for now. THey're 12 and 9, so there is time yet. But they will be BRP players ... they will!

[Shiba Homer]

said some things I don't agree with.

Sarah

Unfortunately gamers die and unless they are replaced with other gamers then that game dies. I know it won't affect people as old as you and I, but I for one would like BRP and other RQ related games to continue after the death of the 35somethings that make up most of the current player base (see the two recent polls).

to be unconcerned with bringing new young players in to the hobby is to drag the fat lady on to the stage when she has a sore throat and is having an asthma attack.

I shudder with horror at the thought of playing all my RPG's in cyberspace or whatever virtual epithet people want to give it. I love computer games and NWN is a great idea, but you are playing in someone elses imagination, not your own and that to me is a big deal.

[sinisalo]

As for Chaosium not having the resources to promote BRP - everywhere there is D&D for sale I see Cthulhu too. OK it doesn't have the shelf space but it is there.

[rust]

As for Chaosium not having the resources to promote BRP - everywhere there is D&D for sale I see Cthulhu too.

This is true, and at least over here the (few) RPG shops stock the games their

customers ask for, whether the publisher does any promotion or not.

If an RPG is really good, there is few need for any kind of promotion, because

the players will inform each other about it - and if a game is bad, promotion

will not increase the sales considerably, because the players will warn each

other.

[sladethesniper]

I agree that it appears that there seems an imminent demise of our hobby...but...

My two children love gaming...though their level of "involvment" is still strictly dungeon crawls and battles...they lack the experience to do heavy role playing that CoC requires, so for now it is dungeon crawls...but they do love it and they will be very happily tossing cash into the gaming monster's gullet for years.

I think the new generation is being "grown" by old gamers plus there is good ol' WoTC creating new gamers with it's vastly popular D&D line, add in WizKidz with HeroClix and of course the massive amount of computer RPG's and MMORPG's...there are more than enough gamers...that isn't even counting the hard corps mini-crowds that old Wahammer/WH40K gamers are making out of their kids, and the thousands of CCG players out there...

So we have plenty of gamers, but instead of just pen and paper gaming, they have a choice of playing CCG's, MMORPG's, miniatures, computer games or table top...

And frankly, all of the other types of gaming take less investment in time, and time is the one thing that nobody has enough of...so while there isn't a lack of gamers, there is a lack of gamers with time, and when given a choice between playing a game that takes a bit of time but still scratches the gaming itch or reorganizing your schedule and the schedule of 1 to 5 other people to play a game...and repeat that schedule fixing on a weekly or bi-monthly basis for months or years...that just isn't going to happen.

There are two forces at work here. One is that there is not enough time. I know lots of gamers...and they all have the same problem, no time to game. I live in a house with 3 other gamers and we still have trouble finding time to just sit and game for 4 hours a week. When faced with school and work, bill paying and errand running, and of course extended absences up to a year...gaming, as much fun as it is, falls to the wayside. It is much worse for other people.

The other force here is divisiveness...I like to call it the false division...between gamers. Gamers are gamers...whether you play Magic, or D20 or BRP or World of Warcraft or Final Fantasy XIII or Warhammer 40K...all gamers. Each of those focuses on different aspects of gaming, but they all share the same focus...taking the gamer to a different more exciting place/reality as an active participant.

It would be nice if D20 gamers did not see Warhammer40K gamers as the enemy, but rather people who are gamers and play something different and just enjoy being a "geek".

On the subject of PDF's...I love them and I am happy I have a few gigs worth of them, but I like paper...I can sit down with an old CoC supplement for hours and be happy, but staring at some PDF for more than 30 minutes irritates me. I am happy that I have them as opposed to nothing at all, but I do much prefer hardcopy, but that is just me (as a dinosaur) speaking of a preference. My kids are trained to read off computer screens for hours and have no difficulty switching between electronic and hard copy. I am told that is due to the new "easy reading" fonts that are being used, but be that as it may, I still prefer to flip pages.

Just my opinion on a few things.

-STS

[Dredj]

I've been thinking that if video game stores also sold p&p rpgs (or p&p rpg stores selling video games), there would be a lot more people gaming with p&p as more people would be introduced to it.

I think the perfect rpg to get more younger people into gaming would be an rpg based on an established video game world like the Resident Evil series (I'm picking that as I'll be gaming in that world, soon), and make it into a source book like Amazon.com: Resident Evil Archives: BradyGames: Books

Then add the BRP system plus the Mythic GM Emulator Mythic Game Master Emulator

if you can get the Mythic creator to go along.

With the Mythic GM Emulator, you don't need a group to play and you can play anytime for as long as you need.

And with the Resident Evil (or other video game franchise) license, it can be sold in video game shops as a source book with an excellent p&p rpg system attached to it.

My personal thinking is that the p&p rpg industry simply isn't taking advantage of what people are gravitating to, nowadays, or of the resources they have on hand. Or I'm totally ignorant on how things actually work in that industry. Personally, it's long seemed to me that the Resident Evil series has been screaming for a p&p rpg license, as the series literally has everything in place for one.

[badcat]

More like, the world of real rpgs is fading fast, the last glimmers are disappearing fast...

[rust]

When I bought my first RPG, almost exactly thirty years ago, I had to mail

order it from Britain, because I was unable to find any RPG shop in Germany.

Somewhat later a first German RPG mail order firm was founded, and an RPG

shop opened in Munich, 65 km from my hometown. There I could buy the few

RPGs available at the time, mainly D&D, RQ and Traveller.

Today there are dozens of RPG shops in Germany, selling hundreds of RPGs,

both online as PDFs, by mail and at the shop. There has never been a higher

density of such shops, and all of these shops have enough customers to at

least survive.

True, there has been a kind of decline over the last five years or so, partial-

ly due to Germany's economic problems (people have less spare money to

spend, and RPGs are often quite expensive), partially to the rapid growth in

the time before. Some shops had to look for additional products like computer

games or comics, but almost all of the shops survived.

More important, there are still many more shops and gamers than thirty years

ago, twenty years ago, or ten years ago. The once rapid expansion of the

field has stopped, and there has been some decline, but this could as well

be a temporary development.

Twilight, fading fast, last glimmers and other Weltschmerz ?

No, not at all, at least not for me.

[Enpeze]

More like, the world of real rpgs is fading fast, the last glimmers are disappearing fast...

Whats a real rpg? I dont know. But I think this term depends on the personal preference of the players. Many of us are not even able to agree on what makes a rpg worth playing or not despite beeing the hardcore fanbase of BRP. So everone has his own "real rpg" style. And his rpg style is most probably not the same like those of most others. This was 1990 not very different than today and I can preserve my way to play in just keeping playing and...playing and...playing (/bunny clap with hands...)

For me the only thing which has changed is myself. So I would not like to play the same games today I played back in 1990. Of course I like talking with my friends about the games in the past, but the more I look at them the more I see that we remember this good old stuff as idealized and somewhat distorted.

For me the different styles to play a mmorpg or play a board game "Junta" with a Fidel-Castro cap on their head are not more alien than those of roleplaying groups which employ a tactical D&D or "player-empowered" WoD style. (actually I prefer a fun game of "junta" or cutting my toe nails instead of playing WoD anyday)

So for me there has not been much change in my personal roleplaying world except that I am not the same as 20 years ago. But for my style of roleplaying till 2050 I just need the BRP basic book and a set of dice. Additional material is fine but not really a-must-have.

[badcat]

One where the players face and interact with each other, do not require on-line sources and have one individual who directs the action via rules interpretation.

[sladethesniper]

One where the players face and interact with each other, do not require on-line sources and have one individual who directs the action via rules interpretation.

OK, yeah, that is fading a bit...that stuff needs time, and from what I can see, this generation and the next don't want to "slow down" in the least.

-STS

[Cowboy Duck]

I see signs of life with gaming. Some of my friends have kids around the same age we were when we started gaming. Those kids are gaming. My boss' kid, as an extreme example, is even designing his own naval battle wargame in between hanging out with his friends/girlfriend and playing soccer/D&D/video games.

I've had the chance to help run a local game store for four months now. Many families - with kids - come in and buy and play. We have a Pokemon league nights that attracts a healthy turnout every week.

The other big local game store has been in business for 20+ years and shows no sign of slowing, without having to diversify their product lines into non-gaming areas.

So, for suburban Chicago at least, the gaming future looks bright.

-Matt

[Shiba Homer]

OK, yeah, that is fading a bit...that stuff needs time, and from what I can see, this generation and the next don't want to "slow down" in the least.

-STS

Ah, I wonder if the economic depression that's just around the corner will remedy that? Everybody will have less spare cash and suddenly a game that doesn't cost you cash every time you play will seem more and more attractive.

[badcat]

Bite your tongue about the depression stuff, it's depressing.

But...

You have a point. The basis of a lot of rpgs, pulp fiction, had it's heyday during the great depression, for the very reasons you cite. Cheap entertainment. And of course, that is how stuff like Conan and Tarzan became known as pulp fiction, the cheap paper the magazines were printed on. Silver linings, huh?

[Trifletraxor]

I totally disagree with this thread. I started playing RuneQuest around 1994, and while we had plenty of supplements in the start, it soon ran dry. We've had to generate scenarios for about 10 years now, and suddenly the market fills up with BRP stuff. As I said in one of the other threads, this is a new golden age, not the twilight of BRP.

SGL.

[badcat]

Sorry, but I sincerely doubt it.

I think it's going to fall flat on its face.

[Trifletraxor]

Sorry, but I sincerely doubt it.

I think it's going to fall flat on its face.

We'll see, we'll see. I still have more scenarios now than I ever had before. Before, BRP was pretty much a dead system unless you liked to play CoC characters about to be killed. Now, I have lots of stuff to work from.

SGL.

[seneschal]

One of the major differences I see between older and newer gamers is that older gamers are readers. The early D&D and Traveller players could handle rulebooks hundreds of pages long because they'd enjoyed the works of Tolkien, Lewis, Moorcock, Asimov, Anderson, Wells, Verne, etc. Most early games were based on favorite literary genres: fantasy, sci fi, westerns, espionage. Younger gamers prefer TV and iPods to books and tend to gravitate toward card, miniatures, and electronic games that require much less reading, preparation and (dare I say it?) imagination. When they do play pen and paper RPGs, they tend to prefer games based on movies, comics and other pop cultural influences rather than on lengthy traditional novels. And they tend to be drawn towards rules-light systems rather than old-school systems that require either 1,001 charts or a Cray computer to calculate stats (can't say that I blame 'em).

So to make an admittedly unforgivable series of generalizations ... older gamers play Runequest (bulky manuals, 50 kinds of dice); younger gamers play Runescape (Internet connection and credit card). Younger gamers play Resident Evil (DVD or Xbox required); older gamers play Call of Cthulhu (vocabulary required). Older gamers play Boot Hill; younger gamers blink and say, "Sam Houston who? Was he named after that city in Texas?" Older gamers play Champions; younger gamers play Hero Clix.

I agree with previous posters who insist we must attract younger players for the hobby to survive. And we must attract younger people to reading in general. Hmmm, maybe those rolling electric blackouts aren't completely a bad thing. >:->

[badcat]

Hope you are right, Trifletraxor.

I don't have any idea how to attract kids to ANYTHING that isn't the easiest, latest thing most of their friends are into. Besides, traditional rpgs require a little skull sweat. I-pods and such don't. It's what they have grown up with.

Too bad, really.

[pdboddy]

I don't think the "old-school" rpgs are entering their twilight. The whole industry is currently 30ish years old, closing in on 40. The death of the hobby and industry has been forecast before, yet it's still alive after the trading card phase, the "rpg games are evil" phase (okay, that was aimed mostly at D&D, but still...), and the clix phase.

I do think that the industry has to evolve and change in order to accommodate the new, younger people interested in trying it out. Some will be perfectly happy with the "new-school" rpgs, while others will venture on and try out the older ones that have been around for a while. This will force any company who wishes to stay afloat to adapt. Those that can adapt will survive, those that don't, will die off.

[Shiba Homer]

I don't think the "old-school" rpgs are entering their twilight. The whole industry is currently 30ish years old, closing in on 40. The death of the hobby and industry has been forecast before, yet it's still alive after the trading card phase, the "rpg games are evil" phase (okay, that was aimed mostly at D&D, but still...), and the clix phase.

I do think that the industry has to evolve and change in order to accommodate the new, younger people interested in trying it out. Some will be perfectly happy with the "new-school" rpgs, while others will venture on and try out the older ones that have been around for a while. This will force any company who wishes to stay afloat to adapt. Those that can adapt will survive, those that don't, will die off.

Adapt and survive or duck and roll?

[frogspawner]

With any luck, the major changes in the upcoming 4th Edition will divide loyalty for D&D, and players will look for a system that's more consistent... BRP.

[rust]

Yep, and the more I read about D&D 4.0, the less I see it as a direct compe-

tition for BRP.

To me it seems that D&D 4.0 is going in the direction of a tabletop-like "roll-

playing" game with some RPG elements, but without much role-playing capa-

bility.