Chaos & Catacombs

[threedeesix]

Got an image for me?

SGL.

My brother is so deep in other projects right now that I don't wish to bug him. I do have a ton of Larry Elmore art (my favorite artist, no offense bro.) in a file someplace and could use one of those. I'll look tonight. Please include a disclaimer to the effect that "this art is used without permission and if the artist wishes it's removal it will be etc, etc.

Rod

[FunGuyFromYuggoth]

Looking at the tidbits of info out already, now integrated to support epic characters and with a modular system for abilities, as well as the WoW-like terms, such as "tiers," I think D&D4e will not fall flat by any means.

That said, BRP will be for the gamers like us. And I think Chaos & Catacombs is for gamers like us... and the switch to 4e will inevitably create more "gamers like us" as many decide that the game has lost the charm it once had when they were young, and they will turn to BRP.

Like I did.

I should have been more clear. All of the OGL settings/games spawned by 3.5 will be left in the dust. They won't make the jump to the new gaming license unless a D&D/WoW style Epic experience is somehow shoe-horned in. In this regard, I see this a D&D 4.0 as an effort to go back to the core business of WotC/Hasbro and dump the legacy gamers who aren't playing D&D or find that the new set-up, while fine for D&D/WoW style level grinds and those who don't mind getting game-related subscription models. This won't necessarily please the rest. In this case, D&D 4 will see a few survivors left bobbing in the water--hopefully BRP can extend a life preserver and welcome them aboard. :thumb: Of course, it's anyone's guess now. We won't know for sure, but its incumbent on BRP to at least have a system ready with settings and scenarios ready-to-go in order to capture this slice of the market.

[Trifletraxor]

In this case, D&D 4 will see a few survivors left bobbing in the water--hopefully BRP can extend a life preserver and welcome them aboard. :thumb: Of course, it's anyone's guess now. We won't know for sure, but its incumbent on BRP to at least have a system ready with settings and scenarios ready-to-go in order to capture this slice of the market.

I think MRQ will grab more of those players than BRP. Loads of supplements, OGL and more familiarity for D&D players.

SGL.

[CruelDespot]

In this case, D&D 4 will see a few survivors left bobbing in the water--hopefully BRP can extend a life preserver and welcome them aboard

What about Pathfinder? Looks like the survivors are already downloading the free version alpha of their "life preserver."

I think it will take more than a great system to make a dent into this market. Paizo is gearing up for a major turf war with WotC. To that end they are publishing 2 or 3 items a month. And they look slick. Good original art, smooth layout, etc. They are starting their own version of the RPGA, they have events scheduled at Gencon...And even they have an uphill struggle ahead of them. That is the level of effort that will be required.

I love BRP better. I just wish it it had the resources and marketting savvy worthy of the product.

[Tywyll]

What about Pathfinder? Looks like the survivors are already downloading the free version alpha of their "life preserver."

I think it will take more than a great system to make a dent into this market. Paizo is gearing up for a major turf war with WotC. To that end they are publishing 2 or 3 items a month. And they look slick. Good original art, smooth layout, etc. They are starting their own version of the RPGA, they have events scheduled at Gencon...And even they have an uphill struggle ahead of them. That is the level of effort that will be required.

I love BRP better. I just wish it it had the resources and marketting savvy worthy of the product.

Not to mention Green Ronin's True D20, Mutants and Masterminds, et al. If the GSL doesn't change, its unlikely they will kill those lines (at least right now) to join the 4th Ed bandwagon.

I do think that MRQ will grab more players than BRP, just on the basis of greater market saturation. How Chaosium could combat that, I don't know, short of pumping out tons of new material to support BRP (which, from a finanacial stand point, is the best way for a company to stay afloat)

[threedeesix]

Nightlamp, if you read this please read your Private Messages.

Rod

[nightlamp]

Nightlamp, if you read this please read your Private Messages.

Rod

Email sent!

[threedeesix]

I have big changes happening to C&C right across the board.

The first change is that Chaos & Catacombs is now to be called something else. Why you may ask? Well Dustin at Chaosium is correctly of the opinion that it was too similar to Castles & Crusades.

I have an idea for a title that I really like but before I post it I want to make sure I can even use it.

Big change number two. Parody is gone, Homage is in. After discussing it with Dustin we came to the conclusion that it will sell better as a homage to classic dungeon delves and frankly I think that’s great. I wanted to make this change myself but wasn’t sure how to approach Dustin on it after being given the go ahead on parody. I had a lot of fun coming up with all the parody at the beginning, but now I’m at the “oh my god, how can I make this thing sound funny” and “wow, I cant think of anything funny to say about the frost giant, what am I going to do about the hill, fire, cloud, storm etc” stage.

The Creature chapter has been one long delay just because I was stuck on the humorous stuff. The creatures have been written now for a month. So when I get everything changed on chapters 1-4, I can crank out the remainder of that.

So anyway, I spent the last week rewriting chapter 1 and 2, and have just sent it out to the first group of playtesters for opinions.

Oh, and while it hurt to chop some of the humor out of it, because, frankly, I was proud of it, I did manage to keep a good chunk by using it in a different context.

For instance, in the write-up on halflings I chopped out, “If there’s a halfling in your party check you money pouch, if it’s missing check his” because that implied all halflings are crooks, its now been moved to the write up on dwarves and says, “There is an old dwarven saying that goes, “if there is a halfling in your party…” this changed the emphasis from all halflings being crooks to dwarves thinking all halflings are crooks. It changes the context and I get to keep my joke. Win win.

Well, this should be going much faster now as I can just write and not have to think of a joke for every paragraph.

Thanks for your patience and happy gaming,

Rod

[CruelDespot]

I'm really looking forward to this game.

[Ars Mysteriorum]

Agreed Cruel, once this game is available, I'm buying it.

[Chaot]

I'm really looking forward to this game, even more so now that it's homage. The 'Let's Read the Monstrous Manual' thread over at rpgnet has got me in the mood for some old school flavor.

Is there any interest here in doing a support monograph? Four or five people could write up a single adventure? Then we could force threedeesix to format it...

[Ars Mysteriorum]

I'm really looking forward to this game, even more so now that it's homage. The 'Let's Read the Monstrous Manual' thread over at rpgnet has got me in the mood for some old school flavor.

Is there any interest here in doing a support monograph? Four or five people could write up a single adventure? Then we could force threedeesix to format it...

I'd want to look at threedeesix's work first, but I'm game.

[GerallKahla]

Big change number two. Parody is gone, Homage is in. After discussing it with Dustin we came to the conclusion that it will sell better as a homage to classic dungeon delves and frankly I think that’s great.

I believe that this will certainly help with the long-term viability of the setting. A parody piece will sell a monograph; an homage can sell future supplements as you address the different parts that people miss from years gone by.

With this re-organization/re-envisioning, you can neatly place a BRP derivative into the line of fire for people dissatisfied with the oncoming changes to D&D. Excellent planning!

This does, however, raise a couple of questions in my mind:

- How comprehensive will this initial release be?

- Are there tropes you're leaving out of the manuscript in hopes that there will be supplemental material to fill it? (Adventures / cultures living in underground catacombs, underwater fantasy setting, etc)

- Is this book going to be set on a concrete world unto itself? You could do a lot worse (from a marketing perspective) than setting a new world spinning...

Thanks for this book! I'll buy it for sure, and I'm thinking about how to push the concept further (or at least explore the niches it's progenitors did).

[Chaot]

Hi threedeesix, you've got a PM.

[Dredj]

Have you thought about adding conversions from D&D so that people can use the old D&D supplements?

[threedeesix]

Sorry I took so long getting back to the forum, been busy.

I believe that this will certainly help with the long-term viability of the setting. A parody piece will sell a monograph; an homage can sell future supplements as you address the different parts that people miss from years gone by.

That was the deciding thought.

With this re-organization/re-envisioning, you can neatly place a BRP derivative into the line of fire for people dissatisfied with the oncoming changes to D&D. Excellent planning!

Yup, on the back of the book it's going to say, "We got your gnomes, right here".

This does, however, raise a couple of questions in my mind:

- How comprehensive will this initial release be?

I would say very comprehensive, so much in fact that I'm already looking at the possibility of having to trim some sections. I already have over 100 classic magic user spells in addition to those in BRP being written, and this isn't including those found in BRP already. I still have to finish the cleric, and druid spells after that.

- Are there tropes you're leaving out of the manuscript in hopes that there will be supplemental material to fill it? (Adventures / cultures living in underground catacombs, underwater fantasy setting, etc)

I'm going to try to make this totally self contained, though I'm using the old D&D red boxed set as a basis for what to include for this book. For now it will concentrate on the classic dungeon delve and abstract overland travel. Though there is plenty in the BRP core book to cover this if the GM wants to go into more detail. There will be random encounter tables of overland travel though. With that in mind, if it sells well I hope to come out with expansions and adventures down the road.

- Is this book going to be set on a concrete world unto itself? You could do a lot worse (from a marketing perspective) than setting a new world spinning...

This is totally beyond the scope of what I'm planning do to space limitations, but here is an excerpt on The Realm.

"The Realm: C&C assumes you are using your own setting or an established setting produced by some other company. There are a lot of fantastic settings out there, and the makers of C&C would never expect you to leave the worlds you’re already familiar with and have grown to love. With this in mind, C&C will refer to the game world in the generic form of, The Realm."

But Chapter 12: The Realm, will have some very "basic" information for players with no set game world that may be fleshed out by them. Think "Questworld" as an example.

Thanks for this book! I'll buy it for sure, and I'm thinking about how to push the concept further (or at least explore the niches it's progenitors did).

Thanks, I hope when it comes out, others will do the same.

Rod

[threedeesix]

Have you thought about adding conversions from D&D so that people can use the old D&D supplements?

I have thought about it, but with some things I didnt use conversion tables. Spells for instance. Instead, I wrote the spell to be compatable with BRP's existing spells and not exactly convert from D&D.

For example, in BRP, the spell Heal is esentually all the D&D spells rolled into one; cast it with one or two magic points, Cure Light Wounds, cast it with 3 or 4 magic points, Cure Serious Wounds, with enough magic points it can also Raise Dead.

With that in mind, here is my adaption of Bigby's 'various' Hand spells.

Bigbee’s Interposing Hand

Class: Magic-User

Range: 2 squares (3 meters); can be moved.

Duration: 10 rounds

Magic Point Cost per level: 1

A large human shaped disembodied hand forms between the caster and a chosen opponent. This hand possesses 10 STR, 10 CON, 10 SIZ, and 10 Hit Points per spell level. The caster does not have to concentrate on this effect and no matter what the caster or the opponent does, the hand remains positioned between them, automatically blocking any successful attack from that opponent, with damage coming off that of the hand. The hand remains until its hit points are reduced to zero, or its duration runs out. Any creature trying to push past the hand must compare their STR to the hands SIZ on the Resistance Table. A failed roll prevents them from advancing, while a successful roll allows them to push through at ½ their MOV.

The caster has a number of additional actions he or she may take with the hand. If moving the hand, it possesses a MOV of 10. These actions require the casters concentration and sometimes the expenditure of additional magic points as follows.

• If the caster so chooses, he may move the hand as a Miscellaneous Action. This cost no additional magic points and allows the hand to still block attacks from one opponent. The caster may designate a new opponent at anytime.

• As an Attack Action, the caster can move the hand toward an opponent and push them back a number of squares equal to the remainder of its MOV, if it can beat their STR + SIZ with its STR + SIZ on the Resistance Table. This costs the magic-user 1 additional magic point.

• As an Attack Action, the caster can move the hand toward an opponent and grapple them, this attempt is automatic and on the opponent’s next action, he or she may attempt to break free as per the grapple rules in Basic Roleplaying pg. XX. This cost the magic-user 1 additional magic point. If the caster chooses, a grappled opponent may be crushed, this will do 1D6 damage per 3 additional magic points.

• Finally, as an Attack Action, the magic-user may cause the hand to strike opponent. This attack has a 100% chance to hit (96-00 always fails as usual) scoring 1D3+db (crushing) damage and armor protects normally. This cost 3 additional magic points.

Playtesters Note: This spell is an adaptation of Bigby’s Interposing Hand, Bigby’s Forceful Hand, Bigby’s Grasping Hand, Bigby’s Clenched Fist, and Bigby’s Crushing Hand.

As you can see, this spell now includes all the effects of the Bigby spells. Monsters are a similar situation, I started bu looking at the monster in 3rd ed, as it's the only one with complete attributes, and then modified it to be compatible with existing BRP creatures. The basilisk for example is described as about the size as a large crocodile, so I then modified those characteristics to be a little better than a croc.

But with that said, I don't think it will be that hard to do your own conversions based upon the existing adaptations. I did it for a year and a half during the BRP playtest, sometimes on the fly and my players never even realized all I had behind my screen was the Monster Manual. Shhhh.

Rod

[threedeesix]

Hi threedeesix, you've got a PM.

Why yes I do, how did you know?

Done.

[frogspawner]

Have you thought about adding conversions from D&D so that people can use the old D&D supplements?

This sort of thing came up recently in peterb's "d20 creature conversion" thread. He's converting from 3.x too. But perhaps you, like me, are interested in converting the OLD D&D stuff... (i.e. AD&D).

[threedeesix]

This sort of thing came up recently in peterb's "d20 creature conversion" thread. He's converting from 3.x too. But perhaps you, like me, are interested in converting the OLD D&D stuff... (i.e. AD&D).

As my core group of players know, my order of preference when converting to C&C is AD&D 1st edition first, if I cant find it in there, 2nd ed is a close second. I convert from 3rd ed only if the previous 2 editions don't have what I'm looking for and then only with a 'gun' to my head. Ok, the guns an exaggeration, but you get the picture.

By starting with 1st ed, we get some nice things D&D forgot through the years, for instance, in C&C, clerics and paladins still turn demons and devils as well as undead. It seems, when 2nd edition came around and TSR removed all references to demons and devils, the ability to turn them was lost, but when WOTC developed 3rd ed and added them back in to the core game, everyone forgot to give this ability back to clerics and paladins. Nice going WOTC.

Rod

[Dredj]

I have thought about it, but with some things I didnt use conversion tables. Spells for instance. Instead, I wrote the spell to be compatable with BRP's existing spells and not exactly convert from D&D.

For example, in BRP, the spell Heal is esentually all the D&D spells rolled into one; cast it with one or two magic points, Cure Light Wounds, cast it with 3 or 4 magic points, Cure Serious Wounds, with enough magic points it can also Raise Dead.

With that in mind, here is my adaption of Bigby's 'various' Hand spells.

As you can see, this spell now includes all the effects of the Bigby spells. Monsters are a similar situation, I started bu looking at the monster in 3rd ed, as it's the only one with complete attributes, and then modified it to be compatible with existing BRP creatures. The basilisk for example is described as about the size as a large crocodile, so I then modified those characteristics to be a little better than a croc.

But with that said, I don't think it will be that hard to do your own conversions based upon the existing adaptations. I did it for a year and a half during the BRP playtest, sometimes on the fly and my players never even realized all I had behind my screen was the Monster Manual. Shhhh.

Rod

That's very interesting. I believe I will be buying a copy of Chaos and Catacombs when it's released:)

[badcat]

Now this sounds good. It also sounds like something I might be able to lure someone into trying (getting them away from 4e). If the Bigby spell is representative of the game as a whole consider copies sold, to me.:thumb:

Will the BRP book be necessary or will it be self-contained? Won't using the name 'Bigby', and others from D&D cause legal problems?

BRP D&D, coming up.:happy:

[threedeesix]

Now this sounds good. It also sounds like something I might be able to lure someone into trying (getting them away from 4e). If the Bigby spell is representative of the game as a whole consider copies sold, to me.:thumb:

Will the BRP book be necessary or will it be self-contained? Won't using the name 'Bigby', and others from D&D cause legal problems?

BRP D&D, coming up.:happy:

Thanks Badcat. Yah, the BRP book will be necessary, I'm going to have a hard time keeping this thing under 200 pages as it is.

I renamed all the Bigby spells Bigbee. Don't know it thats enough but we'll see.

Thanks for the Pony stats. I was able to finish up the equipment chapter tonight. Now back to spells.

Rod

[GreatBear]

I was ambivalent when this project was a parody - but now that it's more of an homage I'm on board. I was considering running AD&D out of nostalgia - then I came to my senses. Chaos & Catacombs sounds more like what I need.

[badcat]

Suggestion for permanent name?

Swords and Sorcerers.