NickMiddleton Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 Nah, re-read Jason's posts up thread - BOTH are copying Da Vinci's "Vetruvian Man" aka "Measure of Man" - it's a very well known image - see here . Nick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason D Posted April 30, 2008 Author Share Posted April 30, 2008 BTW, I spotted a possible (unintentional?) inspiration to the new BRP Core book in a Warhammer 40K supplement on this page: Nah, re-read Jason's posts up thread - BOTH are copying Da Vinci's "Vetruvian Man" aka "Measure of Man" - it's a very well known image - see here . If you'll look upthread, you'll see that the date of my suggestion to Chaosium was 10/15/07, about three and a half months before Dark Heresy shipped. While I would have loved to have had my hands on a copy of Dark Heresy back in October, such was not the case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ars Mysteriorum Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 While I would have loved to have had my hands on a copy of Dark Heresy back in October, such was not the case. You know, it's a very pretty book, but the game somehow lacks the charm and depth (despite a ridiculously deep setting) of WFRP. Still, it's a game, the system works, the possibilities (within the limited scope provided) are manifold, the critical hit charts make me snort with happy laughter. Many people gripe about the limitations of the significantly reduced number of career paths. I disagree with all that. With a proper GM limiting players from taking absolutely every ability a path presents (which would really be ridiculous powergaming... I don't think players are MEANT to take every single skill, just like in WFRP), there are just as many possible takes on the careers to be comparable to WFRP. Also, by focusing on talents, rather than hard characteristic advancement, it makes what can be done with a character's characteristics much more robust. Yes, the base numbers look lower, but put a gun in the hands of a Guardsman acolyte with a 45% BS, and, with wise selection of talents in the Guardsman's advancement tree and the proper actions taken, the character is hot, projectile-fueled death with limbs a-flying. Ahem. Back on topic. I was well aware of the Vetruvian Man images in both books. Nowhere in my mind did the idea of books copying each other ever occur. It's a very famous drawing for its scientific and metaphorical examination of the possibilities of the human body. One of my favorite renditions of this was the DaVinci Virus in the movie Hackers. It had an Italian accent, after all. Quote "Men of broader intellect know that there is no sharp distinction betwixt the real and the unreal..." - H.P. Lovecraft Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ars Mysteriorum Posted May 14, 2008 Share Posted May 14, 2008 And I eat my own words. Anyone heard of JAGS? Here, I'll post the pictures here for your viewing. From the title page of JAGS Revised, a universal RPG system by Marco Chacon (published in 2006). BRP's new logo. Compare the guns. Look at the tentacle compared to the tail. I am aware that the Vetruvian Man is a popularized image... but the similarities here are so much more than a little suspicious. Quote "Men of broader intellect know that there is no sharp distinction betwixt the real and the unreal..." - H.P. Lovecraft Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason D Posted May 14, 2008 Author Share Posted May 14, 2008 Anyone heard of JAGS? I'm going to plead ignorance on that one... as you're talking about a pretty obscure game. I'd heard briefly of it a while ago, and saw the cover when someone posted it on rpg.net (which, if I recall correctly, has a bunch of multi-genre guys arrayed on something that looked like a circular chessboard), but I've never seen inside the book. Is it even in print? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason D Posted May 14, 2008 Author Share Posted May 14, 2008 I should also note that my biggest fear was that it would be too close to the logo for Hero Games (a guy with outstretched arms in a hexagon), but am happy that there's no resemblance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ars Mysteriorum Posted May 14, 2008 Share Posted May 14, 2008 I'm going to plead ignorance on that one... as you're talking about a pretty obscure game. I'd heard briefly of it a while ago, and saw the cover when someone posted it on rpg.net (which, if I recall correctly, has a bunch of multi-genre guys arrayed on something that looked like a circular chessboard), but I've never seen inside the book. Is it even in print? If by "obscure" you mean "award-winning," I agree. It won the Indie award for the best freely available RPG as well as being a runner up for the best support for an RPG. Certainly some people were giving it a look for it to receive recognition. We are speaking of the same book, and yes it is currently available as a pdf from the website (freely, as stated above) and from lulu.com. Quote "Men of broader intellect know that there is no sharp distinction betwixt the real and the unreal..." - H.P. Lovecraft Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frogspawner Posted May 14, 2008 Share Posted May 14, 2008 All the more reason to buy your copy of BRP1 as soon as possible! (Before this Marco Chacon sues and they have to be pulped...) Quote Britain has been infiltrated by soviet agents to the highest levels. They control the BBC, the main political party leaderships, NHS & local council executives, much of the police, most newspapers and the utility companies. Of course the EU is theirs, through-and-through. And they are among us - a pervasive evil, like Stasi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickMiddleton Posted May 14, 2008 Share Posted May 14, 2008 And I eat my own words. Anyone heard of JAGS? Here, I'll post the pictures here for your viewing. ... Compare the guns. Look at the tentacle compared to the tail. I am aware that the Vetruvian Man is a popularized image... but the similarities here are so much more than a little suspicious. I have a copy of JAGS and Wonderland somewhere in PDF and I have read them both but hadn't made the connection to it until you posted but beyond the suggestion that DaVinci's heir's might sue (albeit I'm pretty sure that his original is out of copyright anywhere in the world, what with it being a bit more than seventy years since his death) I don't see anything to be suspicious of - so two people independently came up with the idea of using Da Vinci's "Vetruvian Man" as the basis for an image promoting a multi-genre RPG - big deal. As Jason rightly alluded to, BOTH could be construed as copying Hero games Logo, which itself clearly echoes the DaVinci pic but was around before the JAGS illustration and the BRP cover. And whilst the JAGS and BRP images are more closely derived from DaVinci's original than something like the HERO Games logo, they are clearly different executions of a similar concept, nothing more. They have different numbers of limbs / appendages, the weapons are different (the JAGS chap appears to be holding some sort of revolver), the armour is distributed differently, the BRP has a tentacle coming in... *shrug* I really don't see an issue here... Cheers, Nick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason D Posted May 14, 2008 Author Share Posted May 14, 2008 If by "obscure" you mean "award-winning," I agree. It won the Indie award for the best freely available RPG as well as being a runner up for the best support for an RPG. Certainly some people were giving it a look for it to receive recognition. I'm not trying to sound obtuse here, but I've never even heard of the "Indie award" and I'm familiar with the Origins Awards, the Diana Jones Awards, and the Ennies. I don't see a point of discussing this further, since you're apparently trying to argue that I'm more familiar with something than I actually am. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ars Mysteriorum Posted May 14, 2008 Share Posted May 14, 2008 I'm not trying to sound obtuse here, but I've never even heard of the "Indie award" and I'm familiar with the Origins Awards, the Diana Jones Awards, and the Ennies. I don't see a point of discussing this further, since you're apparently trying to argue that I'm more familiar with something than I actually am. Hmm. There are quite a few jumps in logic here. I meant no argument nor was attempting to convince you that you were aware of something you were not. I only intended to distribute further information. I was only surprised that you haven't heard of these awards and perhaps my sarcastic manner of speaking is poorly represented in type-written form. I apologize for that. You can read more about the Indie RPG Awards here. I don't appreciate having such negative assumptions placed on my intentions, especially since I've shown little but enthusiasm for the release of this game and the work you've done to create it. I even felt compelled to make a thread entitled simply "YAY!" I believe you responded to that with a negative sentiment as well, which I find surprising from someone actually working on the book itself. I'll of course be purchasing this fantastic system, but this interaction has really left a bitter taste in my mouth about the whole thing. No arguments. I'm done posting here. Quote "Men of broader intellect know that there is no sharp distinction betwixt the real and the unreal..." - H.P. Lovecraft Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason D Posted May 14, 2008 Author Share Posted May 14, 2008 I even felt compelled to make a thread entitled simply "YAY!" I believe you responded to that with a negative sentiment as well, which I find surprising from someone actually working on the book itself. You might want to re-read that thread if you viewed my response as "negative." I think it's safe for me to say that no one wants to see this book in print more than I do. Unfortunately, on that very day you posted that "Yay" thread, I had just gotten an email concerning yet another delay with the editing process that made me want to smash my head against my desk. I started the thing four years ago and it's everything I can do not to be giddy with anticipation. As for the cover issue, I'll readily admit that it's not the most original of concepts, but is eminently suitable for the material. Your repeated comment about how well-known JAGS is seemed (to me at least) imply that I surely knew about the game and the image, when nothing could be further from the truth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harshax Posted May 15, 2008 Share Posted May 15, 2008 I'm far more upset that the work isn't titled: DBRP, like all the playtest files. For which I assumed it meant Deluxe BRP, but logic escapes having Deluxe and Basic in reference to the same thing, so it is slowly dawning on me (like a 1d2 SAN loss), that I was really playtesting Durall BRP You clever devil. You would have gotten away with it too if it hadn't been for those pesky kids. :thumb: Quote And don't forget Realism Rule # 1 "If you can do it in real life you should be able to do it in BRP". - Simon Phipp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason D Posted May 15, 2008 Author Share Posted May 15, 2008 I'm far more upset that the work isn't titled: DBRP, like all the playtest files. For which I assumed it meant Deluxe BRP, but logic escapes having Deluxe and Basic in reference to the same thing, so it is slowly dawning on me (like a 1d2 SAN loss), that I was really playtesting Durall BRP You clever devil. You would have gotten away with it too if it hadn't been for those pesky kids. :thumb: As I mentioned during the playtest, I pitched the thing as Complete Basic Roleplaying, but somewhere down the line, Charlie called it Deluxe instead. I'm happy to throw my name onto a system I design, but in this case, I'm sitting on the shoulders of giants. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al. Posted May 15, 2008 Share Posted May 15, 2008 You know I wish you hadn't posted the picture from JAGs. Not because of the little spat we've just seen. (You're both grown ups and have gotten over it accordingly) but because I think the JAGS version looks better! Is it too late to get Chaosium to halt printing and change the cover to a bloke with six arms instead of 4? Al Quote Rule Zero: Don't be on fire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frogspawner Posted May 15, 2008 Share Posted May 15, 2008 Is it too late to get Chaosium to halt printing and change the cover to a bloke with six arms instead of 4? No, don't! Six make it look like he's flapping - trying hard, but not flying... BRP's four arms is better. Quote Britain has been infiltrated by soviet agents to the highest levels. They control the BBC, the main political party leaderships, NHS & local council executives, much of the police, most newspapers and the utility companies. Of course the EU is theirs, through-and-through. And they are among us - a pervasive evil, like Stasi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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