Chaosium's Latest Statement on BRP

[NickMiddleton]

The bottom line here is Chaosium dug itself in to an ENORMOUS hole with the two Kickstarters, and has had to be hoisted out of it (by Greg Stafford / Sandy Petersen returning and then them doing a deal with Moon Design). This has entailed substantial change at the company; and the new management team (being different people to the old) will also have a different set of priorities and preferences on top of that.

This means... things have changed (shock, horror, etc etc etc). Some (many, quite probably the majority I'd guess) are happy with the changes, in part or in total. But equally some (few, definitely a minority I'd guess) are not happy with at least some specific changes, and possibly with the majority or all of the changes. That does not mean the later group of people have any ill will towards Chaosium as a business or the current (or past) staff members.

The attitude I'm beginning to infer from some (that people in the group who are unhappy with the changes) should shut up and that their views don't matter / are somehow intrinsically wrong is... regrettable and unintended I'm sure. We are talking about matters of preference and taste in tabletop RPG's after all.

Cheers,

Nick

Edited October 7, 2015 by NickMiddleton
typo

[RosenMcStern]

What Nick said. Speculation is speculation, and is hardly ever useful. But people are still entitled to say "my preference would go to...", whether or not this is the direction that the new Chaosium management has legitimately taken for the company brands and game lines.

I do not wish to express my personal opinions about the changes that Chaosium has announced. One thing I will note, though, as it is not my opinion but a statistically significant fact. Vile ran a poll here last week, about what people wished (as opposed to expected, which would have been more pointless speculation) to see in BRP Essentials. 80% of the votes went for a "classic" BRP implementation (BGB, MW, WoW), with BGB having 50% of preferences, while only 10% asked for a simplified version of RQ6.

This means that at least among the people who read these forums it is safe to assume that those who would rather have seen another solution than the one proposed are a solid majority. This of course says nothing about what "the people out there", that is Chaosium's prospect customers, actually prefer. But it says seomething about what this community's tastes are.

[Simlasa]

Hallelujah. I was hoping that they weren't going to use CoC7 as the model for the core rules.

Yeah, there's at least that little beam of sunshine.

The darkest cloud is for Magic World... it would be nice if support for that continued somehow, off the grid.

Edited October 7, 2015 by Simlasa

[soltakss]

My guess is that what people want on forums will not make the slightest bit of difference to what they actually get.

Business decisions should not be made as knee-jerk reactions to forum comments.

 

 

[Guest Vile Traveller]

My guess is that what people want on forums will not make the slightest bit of difference to what they actually get.

Business decisions should not be made as knee-jerk reactions to forum comments.

One would hope not, but the growth of open playtests and at least the bigger players migrating their products towards the most loudly expressed views does seem to indicate otherwise.

So capitalising on that and making a lot of noise is a sound fan policy.

[Simlasa]

My guess is that what people want on forums will not make the slightest bit of difference to what they actually get.

So you're suggesting an angry letter-writing campaign? OK, let's get on that...

[Questbird]

Vile ran a poll here last week, about what people wished (as opposed to expected, which would have been more pointless speculation) to see in BRP Essentials. 80% of the votes went for a "classic" BRP implementation (BGB, MW, WoW), with BGB having 50% of preferences, while only 10% asked for a simplified version of RQ6.

This means that at least among the people who read these forums it is safe to assume that those who would rather have seen another solution than the one proposed are a solid majority. This of course says nothing about what "the people out there", that is Chaosium's prospect customers, actually prefer. But it says seomething about what this community's tastes are.

Well, the site is called basicroleplaying.org so there is probably a bit of bias here 

Edited October 7, 2015 by Questbird

[Guest Vile Traveller]

Well, the site is called basicroleplaying.org so there is probably a bit of bias here 

Of course there is, otherwise WoW would be in the lead.

[smiorgan]

 

Specifically for Smiorgan - A lot of F&D is being put about by folks who don't like the direction CoC7e took and don't like MW being put on the back burner and whine and complain here and on other fora. It does no good to whine and the sort of speculation being pushed with the agenda of those people here and on other sites raises concerns in fence sitters who may now not choose to go the Chaosium route. Provocative thread titles like 'Has Chaosium died' do not engender a feeling of positive action being taken as a response to the notice of the company going virtual.

OK, I think I know the "Has Chaosium died" thread you mention. Just to be clear: it was not here and was not started by me. I understand what worries you: excessive negativity damaging the efforts being done to rescue Chaosium. That said it is not fair to brand someone as whiner with an agenda just because they don't like CoC7 or hoped Ben Monroe could develop the Magic World line and are disappointed.

For one, I don't particularly like CoC7 rules (not that they are terrible either) and I'm happy the new BRP foundation will be based on RQ6 instead. It's just an opinion, it's not badmouthing Chaosium.

  

[TrippyHippy]

It's a surprise to me that Chaosium are choosing to do their next BRP booklet based on the RQ6 rules. It seems like more effort on their part.

If they do it based on RQ6 rules, in 32 pages, I'd imagine that there will be no room for any of the magic systems. Hit locations and Combat Manoeuvers may take up too much space so they might resort to total HP and straight forward attacks only. The method of calculating base Skill Stats based on combining Characteristic scores may be simplified a bit for newbies who want to save time not having to calculate much. They may alter the skill list a bit to account for different genres, and possibly do away with Advanced skills as a stipulation.

Y know, at a Basic level, there might not be much difference between RQ rules and BRP....

 

 

[lawrence.whitaker]

The method of calculating base Skill Stats based on combining Characteristic scores may be simplified a bit for newbies who want to save time not having to calculate much. 

SIMPLIFY? You add two numbers together! That hardly counts - pardon the pun - as complicated. Either to explain or actually do... 

 

[Guest Vile Traveller]

Okay, I'm just going to quote myself here.  

It's a surprise to me that Chaosium are choosing to do their next BRP booklet based on the RQ6 rules. It seems like more effort on their part.

Y know, at a Basic level, there might not be much difference between RQ rules and BRP....

 

I personally think BRP Essentials, based on the highly selective snippets above and other things mentioned in my happy thread, is much more likely to be based on RQ7 than the BGB. Furthermore, I would posit that it does not make any sense for it to be otherwise - from Chaosium's point of view, of course, not ours (although I note there are 4 votes for not-RQ7 and even one each for HQ and CoC7 over there, so it's not unanimous).

Really, it's what I would do in their place. It's difficult to properly support BRP and RQ at the same time, and you would get fans from both sides complaining they're not getting enough. I just wonder why they haven't come out themselves and said they'd go with RQ6 and not BGB. Unless it was like a big surprise reveal for that massive media event The Kraken or something.

 

If they do it based on RQ6 rules, in 32 pages, I'd imagine that there will be no room for any of the magic systems. Hit locations and Combat Manoeuvers may take up too much space so they might resort to total HP and straight forward attacks only. The method of calculating base Skill Stats based on combining Characteristic scores may be simplified a bit for newbies who want to save time not having to calculate much. They may alter the skill list a bit to account for different genres, and possibly do away with Advanced skills as a stipulation.

 Pretty much what BRP 1E did for RQ2. So, instead of simplify, maybe read "drop".

I don't want to over-quote myself (okay, I just can't find the post where I said this before), but at 32 pages there won't be much difference whether it's based on BGB or RQ6. Magic should definitely be left out, because it's one of the most setting-defining things there is.

Unless you go with WoW magic, that's fine, of course!

Edited October 7, 2015 by Vile

[RosenMcStern]

As Loz said, the only way I see to make it simpler would be to switch to rock-scissor-paper.

So you're suggesting an angry letter-writing campaign? OK, let's get on that...

I do not know what Vile intended to suggest, but I would recommend not doing anything angry or ill-mannered. Express your preferences, politely.

[Guest Vile Traveller]

I do not know what Vile intended to suggest, but I would recommend not doing anything angry or ill-mannered. Express your preferences, politely.

I would follow Pink Floyd's admonition: "Good manners dahn't cost naffing." (Just ignore the double negative, you know what they meant.)

[TrippyHippy]

Ok..and I possibly may be going out on a limb here......but honestly....I'm a little bit....well... enthused by the direction Chaosium/RQ/BRP is heading now.

I'd still like clarifying a few things about upcoming products, and I will keep asking about them, but there was enough information in those recent announcements that I can work with (at least). Not talking for anyone else here, obviously.

 

[Aelwyn]

I don't bear Pete, Loz, the new management at Chaosium, or anyone else involved any ill will, and I certainly hope the company succeeds. I was in a game store last weekend, and I specifically asked about Call of Cthulhu, Basic Roleplaying, and Chaosium. All they had was a copy of In Search of the Trollslayer, which I put at the front of the stack so it was more prominently displayed. 

I'm an active fan and advocate for the company. 

There are many things I like about the RQ6 rules, and I think a 32-page generic version is an excellent idea and a good way to move the company into the future. I bought a copy of RQ6 this summer, and I'm about to join a long-running Runequest group that's using a hybrid of Mongoose and RQ6 rules with some house rules thrown in.

However, I've got thousands of hours of work invested in two 80-page manuscripts based on the Big Gold Book. No one is now going to publish those manuscripts unless I do some extensive rewrites and additions. I've got skin in the game. I don't blame anyone but myself and the dice, but I reserve the right to whine.

[seneschal]

Whatever rules set they go with, they need to PROMOTE THE HECK OUT OF IT.  Old Chaosium's marketing was nearly non-existent.  Not impressed with the other guys' efforts, either, since they apparently have as much success getting their stuff on store shelves as the former.  I've heard that they've published some great books (on these forums, mind) but have rarely or never seen these titles.  If I --  an aware veteran gamer -- have never seen their products, prospective new players definitely haven't.  My previous marketing suggestions elsewhere were serious:

1.  Change your attitude.  Ditch the "We're a niche market" nonsense for "A copy of RuneQuest in every house!"  Plus one alongside each Gideon Bible in hotel rooms.

2.  Hire a crazy, determined marketeer and salesman.  We know Chaosium/Moon Design/The Design Mechanism are all lovely creative people.  Fine.  Now it is time to actually sell the stuff you've worked so hard to create.  Get someone who knows how to do that, even if he or she isn't a gamer.

3.  Compile a current national list of game shops, town by town, state by state.  Don't rely on old, outdated lists that you may have had to purchase.  Contact these folks directly, let them know that you and your product exist, ask them to stock your stuff.

4.  Solicit reviews in small sci-fi and gaming magazines as well as in online venues.  Small publishers and bloggers need copy.  They might as well be talking about you!

5.  If the Big Three distributors aren't working for you, find a way to bypass them.  Can't sell stuff you can't get to your prospective customers.  Websites, RSS feeds, Amazon.com listings, and Facebook pages are no substitute for actual books on actual shelves where actual customers can take them in their grubby hands and pore over them.  Find ways to get out of the comic shop/game shop ghetto so that people who aren't already grognards can discover your glorious tomes and buy them. You are seeking to create new players.

6. Advertise in key locations where sales are highest.  Direct mail postcards to a 5-mile radius around shops carrying your product.  Billboards  featuring Bronze Age babes touting RQ or Cthulhu, specifically mentioning the local stores carrying your product.  Brief radio spots touting your product and mentioning specific local retailers.

Bottom line:  You must create widespread awareness of your product among prospective new role-players.  Then you must get those books out in the wild where people can discover, examine, and ultimately purchase them.

As Stan Lee would say, ""Nuff said."

Addendum:  Keep selling your existing product.  Don't compost copies of RuneQuest 6, Call of Cthulhu 6, the assorted Guides to Glorantha, HeroQuest, the Big Gold Book, etc., just because you've had an ownership shake-up and your current logo isn't on the cover.  Sell, sell, sell like, um, heck, heck, heck.  All the profits from "obsolete" product go to the same place, you!  And the stuff will still win converts for the shiny new books you plan to put out.

Edited October 7, 2015 by seneschal
Add comment

[tooley1chris]

I would also add to seneschals wonderful list, product explosive support. If the games are to be self contained get those creative writers working on new materials now. Stop trickling in new material once every couple years. That kills product enthusiasm. I want to spend $ on something new and exciting every few (6?) months. 

[Aelwyn]

I'd like to add to seneschal's list of things Chaosium should do, the following list of things that we, the fans of BRP and related systems, can do:

1. Post about the games on RPG websites. This is probably the best way to market them because it reaches the widest audience, and people are more likely to read and believe a heartfelt post by a genuine fan than a slick marketing campaign by someone who doesn't necessarily know anything about RPGs.

2. Talk up your favorite products among your friends. 

3. Walk into game stores and ask the clerks if they have anything for Runequest, Call of Cthulhu, BRP, Glorantha, Legend, d100, OpenQuest, etc. Mention the names of companies. A good clerk will mention this to the manager. A good manager will ask the distributor about these names.

4. Write and submit work to Chaosium, Alephtar, Mongoose, Moon Design, Design Mechanism, and other game publishers. They can't publish stuff if no one's writing it. 

I'm well aware that many of us are already doing these things, and I'm also aware that many of us have other priorities and can't spend a lot of time on this. These are just ideas, not a suggestion that anyone has an obligation to do anything.

[Mysterioso]

What does it take to get stuff into Barnes and Noble*?  Not being an industry person, I don't know so I can't offer that.  I do know I have seen both boardgames and RPGs at many Barnes and Noble branches and have actually seen posts in other media about book stores like B&N being taken over by games and game nights. 

 

*I know that they're in decline but there are probably more of B&N than there are independent game stores.

[K Peterson]

3. Walk into game stores and ask the clerks if they have anything for Runequest, Call of Cthulhu, BRP, Glorantha, Legend, d100, OpenQuest, etc. Mention the names of companies. A good clerk will mention this to the manager. A good manager will ask the distributor about these names.

 

I don't know what the gaming scene is like in some parts of the US or world. But game stores are a dying breed in my neck of the woods. Many in the area have dried up and blown away over the years/decades leaving little to choose from. The only store I frequent is a hybrid comic-shop/game store, and the only reason I think it's survived is that it has diversified. Fortunately, they do carry a good selection of Rpgs, including BRP material from a number of publishers.

There are a handful of other stores scattered around the metropolitan area, but they seem sharply focused on boardgames, CCGs, and a very limited scope of Rpgs (D&D, Shadowrun, FFG Star Wars). I suspect that you'd have quite a job on your hands convincing them to carry BRP product that might not move quickly and just tie up valuable (rotating) shelf space.

4. Write and submit work to Chaosium, Alephtar, Mongoose, Moon Design, Design Mechanism, and other game publishers. They can't publish stuff if no one's writing it. 

I think this is some of the best advice I've seen. 

If I could add to the 'list of things' suggested, I'd say organize locally. Seek out BRP gamers in the area to establish a community of sorts; attend local conventions and run BRP games; organize a BRP Meetup.com group and schedule monthly events.

Saying this, I could use to eat some of my own dog food. I've been mulling over starting a Meetup group for Call of Cthulhu, or BRP, for some time. If D&D, Storygames, or hell, even Gurps can muster a Meetup fanbase why not CoC or BRP?

[lawrence.whitaker]

Getting into  any national chain,  like B&N,  requires a distributor or buying agreement with the company at a corporate level. Distributors protect their markets,  demand a hefty discount and book stores at this level rarely,  if ever,  deal directly with a publisher. Most also work on a sale or return model,  meaning that a small publisher has stock tied up,  is only paid when it sells,  and may even find large volumes coming back if sales don't transpire. If a publisher wants a store to promote a title,  it costs  money. 

This is one of the main reasons why selling RPGs through the book store method is a road to ruin.  You need substantial resources to get the agreements in place,  will likely lose money,  and you have stock tied up that actually works against you. Sadly it simply isn't good business sense  to go down this route. 

[Guest Vile Traveller]

Donate games to libraries, school libraries, university libraries, and run those living campaign things that WotC and Paizo do. Seriously, if you want to make any hobby sustainable, it needs new blood. I'll be looking into starting a club at my institute once my course settles down and I can stop writing new lectures every week.

But nothing fans do is a substitute for the company looking slick and competent and fast to react and polite. MOB is making a start picking up from where Ben prematurely left off, but Chaosium have a lot of lost goodwill to recover (if you think we're whining, head over to any CoC7 Kickstarter threads right now ...).

As for something completely different - I hope Chaosium will look at producing thin books that can be PoD in saddle-stitched format, because that's way better than even Lulu's perfect bound or hardback (which is just another type of perfect bound).

[Mysterioso]

Getting into  any national chain,  like B&N,  requires a distributor or buying agreement with the company at a corporate level. Distributors protect their markets,  demand a hefty discount and book stores at this level rarely,  if ever,  deal directly with a publisher. Most also work on a sale or return model,  meaning that a small publisher has stock tied up,  is only paid when it sells,  and may even find large volumes coming back if sales don't transpire. If a publisher wants a store to promote a title,  it costs  money. 

This is one of the main reasons why selling RPGs through the book store method is a road to ruin.  You need substantial resources to get the agreements in place,  will likely lose money,  and you have stock tied up that actually works against you. Sadly it simply isn't good business sense  to go down this route. 

That does make sense.  I know B&N has not been able to get me certain books and I think it was for a similar reason. 

It is a shame that Chaosium did not look at this earlier in its history as I think Call of Cthulhu has enough name recognition from the HPL novella if not the RPG itself.  IIRC, I've seen Arkham Horror there.  (Runequest I think would be a harder sell as D&D version whatever has the larger name recognition.)  "If ifs and ands were pots and pans there'd be no tinkers in the lands."

Edited October 7, 2015 by Mysterioso

[RosenMcStern]

Worse, once you have made that big quantity of books available to the big chain, you might find that it takes advantage of the quantity and discount to sell your titles at 40% off ON THE INTERNET, thus tapping into your own customer base and making you seem greedy and expensive, instead of putting the books on the shelves in their shops.
A publisher must be extremely picky when it comes to choosing its distribution channels. Bad surprises are behind every corner, as Loz said.