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14 minutes ago, SNaomiScott said:

Wait, is there really going to be a Grand Argrath Campaign for RQG similar to the Pendragon one, or is this just rumour and speculation at this time?

IIRC, someone official @Chaosium has stated that a RQG "Grand <X> Campaign" (in Pendragon's GPC model) is looking probable; or at least has made implications to that effect.  I don't believe any writing has begun (other than the fact that they have a metric crapton of Gregnotes -- and extended writings! -- on Argrath & his Argrathsaga).

I am... unclear whether I think this is a Good Thing, or not.  The Hero Wars, and players comparing their own PCs to the Really Big Guns, already elicits grumbling about how the metaplot looks a lot like being sidekicks to the GMPC's Destiny.  I cannot but think a published Argrathsaga would make that grumbling worse.

 

At the same time, I cannot help but ...

 

...

 

 

SQUEE!!!

Edited by g33k
May Arachne Solara cut the mobile editor from Her Web and dissolve it in the Uttermost Void
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1 hour ago, g33k said:

I am... unclear whether I think this is a Good Thing, or not.

If done quickly, this will be a Good Thing, as it will allow GMs and Players to run through a truly epic campaign.

If it takes years, it will be a Bad Thing, as we will constantly be waiting for the heroic campaign.

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6 hours ago, g33k said:

I am... unclear whether I think this is a Good Thing, or not.  The Hero Wars, and players comparing their own PCs to the Really Big Guns, already elicits grumbling about how the metaplot looks a lot like being sidekicks to the GMPC's Destiny.  I cannot but think a published Argrathsaga would make that grumbling worse.

I'm pretty much the same myself.

Would it be nice to have a big campaign that you can sink the players into for several months a la Pendragon? Sure. It would definitely help give the players a strong taste of what the Hero Wars and Glorantha (esp. Dragon Pass) is about, and would be handy for newcomer GM's to get a feel for running a RQ game, but...

As you say, it could also set up a situation where players (and potentially GMs) are trying to outshine the big names of the Hero Wars and steal the thunder (no pun intended).

At the same time, I *love* the ambiguity surrounding the stories of Argrath as presented in King of Sartar, and can see myself possibly being a little disappointed by anything that attempts to offer a definitive canonical answer to the question of 'who is Argrath?'

There's a part of me that would love to see something like this, but another, larger part that would want it be focused around something less established than Argrath's rise to power and subsequent deification (maybe).

 

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I think it would be a Good Thing.

First, big campaigns always run the risk of the PCs completely derailing it. They usually give enough background info on NPCs and factions for the GM to be able to extrapolate what happens next.

Second, if anybody can pull it off, it's Chaosium. It worked for the Great Pendragon Campaign, it worked for Masks of Nyarlathotep, it worked for Horror on the Orient Express... I mean, I don't know if any one game company has as many Big Giant-Ass Campaign Books as Chaosium under the same roof.

Third, there are many ways to go about it... they could put the PCs at the forefront of the Sartarite rebellion, and only talk about Argrath in boxed text ("Argrath's Saga", similar to "Vasana's Saga" and all the other "Sagas" that flavoured every RQ book), effectively making him an "example PC". They could show in detail how the "canon" timeline goes, but actually spend most of the book's real estate on info on armies, alliances, tactics, and so on, so that you could play it from any given faction (you can join the Lunars and make them win?). Last, they could just frame it in a way that still gives players a feeling of accomplishment -- I really don't see how not being "the main guy" is a problem. There are plenty of missions that Argrath might give the PCs that can change the war, from leading an important flanking battalion to going behind enemy lines to assassinate an important figure to being spies or recovering magical artefacts or securing alliances and what not. I think that could be immensely fun to play. After all, I don't think anybody would oppose playing games set during WW2 just because "you know how it turns out" and you can't play Churchill, no?

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12 hours ago, soltakss said:

If done quickly, this will be a Good Thing, as it will allow GMs and Players to run through a truly epic campaign.

If it takes years, it will be a Bad Thing, as we will constantly be waiting for the heroic campaign.

Or they could do it "The Boy King" like: 
Publishing the first half of the campaign NOW for immediate use, and work on the second half while we are playing in the era of the first book. 


Argrath Saga, Part 1 1621 - 1638 (Battle of Dwernapple AND Phargentes crowned Red Emperor)
Argrath Saga, Part 2 1638 - 1655

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3 hours ago, AndreJarosch said:

Or they could do it "The Boy King" like: 
Publishing the first half of the campaign NOW for immediate use, and work on the second half while we are playing in the era of the first book. 

Now, that would work.

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On 9/7/2019 at 6:47 PM, SNaomiScott said:

Wait, is there really going to be a Grand Argrath Campaign for RQG similar to the Pendragon one, or is this just rumour and speculation at this time?

Yes, there will be a GAC (1602 [!]-1655) & no, it's not just "rumour & speculation" as @Jeff is working on it. If we get it in 2021 we should be happy & if it's next year, we should be overjoyed, now, shouldn't we?!!

Here is what @Jason Durall recently wrote on the RQ Facebook page:

Quote

'The Smoking Ruin & Other Stories' goes into layout ASAP. Art has been the holdup for this book.

Immediately after, 'The Pegasus Plateau & Other Stories' goes into layout, as art is coming in and should be done when TSR is finished.

Then it's onto the Starter Set, the GM Sourcebook, and the Campaign Guide, in that order, with Cults of Glorantha to follow.

We may intersperse something smaller in the last batch, as we're getting an embarrassment of great manuscripts piling up.

André Jarosch added:

Quote

The "GM Sourcebook" is the GM book?
The "Campaign Guide" is the Dragon Pass Campaign?
"Cults of Glorantha" is the new title of Gods and Goddesess of Glorantha?

And @Jason Durall impishly replied:

Quote

Andre Jarosch Who even knows?!?!

 

Edited by Christoph Kohring
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2 hours ago, Christoph Kohring said:

If we get it in 2021 we should be happy & if it's next year, we should be overjoyed, now, shouldn't we?!!

That's my opinion also... we can do better than the cliche of the impatient (or, worse, entitled) fans asking for things to go faster than they should realistically go.

I'm surprised to see the Starter Set and GM Guide come after the 2 scenario books -- I thought (based on some previous staff comments on the forums) that they had a higher priority. It's also interesting to see that Cults of Glorantha is after the Campaign Guide (since it sounded like Jeff was mostly working on the cults lately... does that mean the Campaign Guide first draft is pretty complete already?). No mention of the new Pavis book so I assume Robin is still hard at work on the manuscript -- he was recently mentioning some interesting "archeological loot" approach to Big Rubble treasures in his podcast.

Edited by lordabdul
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14 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

 

I'm surprised to see the Starter Set and GM Guide come after the 2 scenario books -- I thought (based on some previous staff comments on the forums) that they had a higher priority. It's also interesting to see that Cults of Glorantha is after the Campaign Guide (since it sounded like Jeff was mostly working on the cults lately... does that mean the Campaign Guide first draft is pretty complete already?). No mentioned of the new Pavis book so I assume Robin is still hard at work on the manuscript -- he was recently mentioning some interesting "archeological loot" approach to Big Rubble treasures in his podcast.

The important factor is art. It has nothing to do with the manuscripts. 

The commission for art for the cults books [both volumes] put finished stuff on hold. 

Edited by prinz.slasar

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In the mean-time we can all (re)read what a genius gamemaster, Martin Laurie, did with only KoS as a source because that was indeed a grand & magnificent Argath (the Gwandorling!) campaign:

http://www.celtic-webs.com/glorantha/campaigns/gwandor/gwandor.html

Edited by Christoph Kohring
Added the name of the genius GM!
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On 9/7/2019 at 6:47 PM, SNaomiScott said:

Wait, is there really going to be a Grand Argrath Campaign for RQG similar to the Pendragon one, or is this just rumour and speculation at this time?

@Jeff wrote elsewhere:

Quote

This is pretty much the subject of the RuneQuest Campaign book, which goes season by season to the acclamation of Argrath as Prince of Sartar, and then yearly going forward.

In conversation with Jeff (first time IRL!) at Les Hydriades convention here in the land of the Switzers this spring, he also said that the GAC/ RQ Campaign Book would also go backwards to -or even begin in- 1602, Uther Pendragon-style.

Edited by Christoph Kohring
Added links.
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4 hours ago, Christoph Kohring said:

@Jeff wrote elsewhere:

In conversation with Jeff (first time IRL!) at Les Hydriades convention here in the land of the Switzers this spring, he also said that the GAC/ RQ Campaign Book would also go backwards to -or even begin in- 1602, Uther Pendragon-style.

Nice! I'm extremely much in favor of this. I hope any grand campaign would support starting  by playing Borderlands!

Edited by Akhôrahil
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RQG laid down a promise campaign play in the same vein as Pendragon; one game per season, focusing on parentage in char gen and off season rolls. Even if you don't play the big campaign, have it as a framework to guide GMs in playing in different eras would be essential. Dynasty was such a core part of Pendragon and I believe should be for RQ too. The Hero Wars are about fighting for future generations with the aid of your ancestors. 

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10 hours ago, Psullie said:

RQG laid down a promise campaign play in the same vein as Pendragon; one game per season, focusing on parentage in char gen and off season rolls. Even if you don't play the big campaign, have it as a framework to guide GMs in playing in different eras would be essential. Dynasty was such a core part of Pendragon and I believe should be for RQ too. The Hero Wars are about fighting for future generations with the aid of your ancestors. 

The Hero Wars might be on the short side for that - only 30 years from Dragonrise to Moonfall (hey, never realized how symmetrical those terms are before), so only time for one more generation, really.

That said, if it supports starting much earlier (say 1607), then...

Edited by Akhôrahil

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On 9/18/2019 at 8:39 AM, Akhôrahil said:

That said, if it supports starting much earlier (say 1607), then...

... yeah, Maboder annihilation ! Apparently, 1602 (Fall of Sartar)-1655 (Moonfall) with a lot of details -season by season- between 1625-1628, less between 1629-1655 (yearly basis) & even less for the recent past, 1602-1624, but still more than we've ever had!?! Quite a tantalizing program... wait & see.

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I think having certain main events be essentially unavoidable with alterations depending on what triggers them (Sartarite rebellion essentially guaranteed though who wins and what each sides strength is would depend on the PCs and whose side they are on) and then loading the book up with history, factions, and events from the de-facto timeline as well as tips on how to alter them would be more than enough. People break things all the time and I know for a fact some people ran Pendragon campaign's where the players were not only loyal knights of the round table but important lord's as well, some having taken power after certain events throw Logres into chaos. As long as the campaign gives us information about the de facto timeline as well as information about what fuels the events it makes it easier to understand them and how to change them based on your group's personal playthrough. 

Like oh we were supposed to be fighting this battle to invade the Lunar heartlands but since my players defeated the rebellion and join the Lunars instead we are going to invade Esrolia to add it to the Empire.

Give us the main events and details about the world and main players at each point and we can easily make our own changes from there where necessary. If you know an important NPC's child is meant to rise to power after their death but the player's kill that NPC early welp time for a child with a hunger for revenge to bide their time as a regnant holds power in the meantime.

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On 10/24/2019 at 2:00 PM, DerKrieger said:

I think having certain main events be essentially unavoidable with alterations depending on what triggers them (Sartarite rebellion essentially guaranteed though who wins and what each sides strength is would depend on the PCs and whose side they are on) and then loading the book up with history, factions, and events from the de-facto timeline as well as tips on how to alter them would be more than enough. People break things all the time and I know for a fact some people ran Pendragon campaign's where the players were not only loyal knights of the round table but important lord's as well, some having taken power after certain events throw Logres into chaos. As long as the campaign gives us information about the de facto timeline as well as information about what fuels the events it makes it easier to understand them and how to change them based on your group's personal playthrough. 

Like oh we were supposed to be fighting this battle to invade the Lunar heartlands but since my players defeated the rebellion and join the Lunars instead we are going to invade Esrolia to add it to the Empire.

Give us the main events and details about the world and main players at each point and we can easily make our own changes from there where necessary. If you know an important NPC's child is meant to rise to power after their death but the player's kill that NPC early welp time for a child with a hunger for revenge to bide their time as a regnant holds power in the meantime.

Yeah, that's what I'd like to see ASAP, some sort of timeline GM's can use for the Big Events, changing them if they feel like it, but doing so consciously not accidentally. I started a separate thread about Pavis, as in my campaign my players are going to hit Pavis at about the same time Vasana et.al. start wandering Prax. I'd like to know at least in general terms what Pavis was like after it was either liberated or wrecked by Argrath and Jaldon Goldentooth. What is it like now? A happy liberated city or smoking ruins with Lunars and Pavisites being hunted down and abused by angry Praxian barbarians? KOS can be read either way. I'm guessing somewhere in between, and it would be nice to know at least in very general terms what Argrath's role was in all that, and I'm thinking folk at Chaosium at least know that much. Comments? Thoughts?

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4 hours ago, Glorion said:

Yeah, that's what I'd like to see ASAP, some sort of timeline GM's can use for the Big Events, changing them if they feel like it, but doing so consciously not accidentally. I started a separate thread about Pavis, as in my campaign my players are going to hit Pavis at about the same time Vasana et.al. start wandering Prax. I'd like to know at least in general terms what Pavis was like after it was either liberated or wrecked by Argrath and Jaldon Goldentooth. What is it like now? A happy liberated city or smoking ruins with Lunars and Pavisites being hunted down and abused by angry Praxian barbarians? KOS can be read either way. I'm guessing somewhere in between, and it would be nice to know at least in very general terms what Argrath's role was in all that, and I'm thinking folk at Chaosium at least know that much. Comments? Thoughts?

As Harald pointed out in the Pavis thread, you will get answers from Robin Laws's books and the presentation at this year's Kraken.

I have been made privy to a number of metaplot ideas early in the Hero Wars period that were meant to forecast shadows into the Hero Wars development. Most of these were included into the Guide in the "Prophecies of the Hero Wars" sections, others haven't seen mention there. One thing these developments did not deliver was concrete years, though, or even much of a temporal sequence between different developments affecting the same region.

At the time, this was meant to allow player and GM agency in how these greater events would affect their Glorantha campaigns.

Basically, the Gloranthan meta-plot means that things are brewing up. But which effect is going to win? Will Sheng's renewed empire turn the Lunar Empire into a grassland, or will the aldryami reforestation dominate? Or do the human agricultural civilizations manage to fend off either attack on their existence with the agency of the player characters or major campaign NPCs?

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21 hours ago, Joerg said:

As Harald pointed out in the Pavis thread, you will get answers from Robin Laws's books and the presentation at this year's Kraken.

I have been made privy to a number of metaplot ideas early in the Hero Wars period that were meant to forecast shadows into the Hero Wars development. Most of these were included into the Guide in the "Prophecies of the Hero Wars" sections, others haven't seen mention there. One thing these developments did not deliver was concrete years, though, or even much of a temporal sequence between different developments affecting the same region.

At the time, this was meant to allow player and GM agency in how these greater events would affect their Glorantha campaigns.

Basically, the Gloranthan meta-plot means that things are brewing up. But which effect is going to win? Will Sheng's renewed empire turn the Lunar Empire into a grassland, or will the aldryami reforestation dominate? Or do the human agricultural civilizations manage to fend off either attack on their existence with the agency of the player characters or major campaign NPCs?

As I said in that thread, as the presentation was about the Big Rubble and not about Pavis, it said just enough to make me wonder more. What books would you referring to? Some Heroquest thing or other? I have Gateway to Pavis, but that stops cold before 1625. What I really want to know is just what Argrath and the Praxians did to Pavis, and for that there are only unclear hints. Except that it sounds real real bad, and maybe some of my players will start wondering if the Lunars are really so bad after all if that's the version I give them. 

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11 hours ago, Glorion said:

What I really want to know is just what Argrath and the Praxians did to Pavis, and for that there are only unclear hints. Except that it sounds real real bad, and maybe some of my players will start wondering if the Lunars are really so bad after all if that's the version I give them. 

If you think about it, the Lunar Administrator, the Patroma family, the Irrippi Ontor scribes, and the Etyries merchants have been busily accumulating loot through various means out of the Big Rubble. Argrath will unleash his host to find and recover that. He'll take some part of this loot to use for his own purposes (e.g. building the Sartar Magical Union, making deals with troll leaders, etc.) and then distribute the rest to make his allies happy. Captives will be part of the "loot" taken, and most will be sold into slavery. 

Btw, finally found the picture I was thinking of in HQG p.101. And there's relevant text on p.102 related to it.

"A group of Argrath’s victorious warriors present their high-ranking Lunar captive from the city of New Pavis at the Praxian oasis of Pimper’s Block.... Lunar captive: The prisoner is Jotaran Longsword, who fortune has not treated well. Once the City Administrator of Pavis for the Lunar Empire, now he is an enslaved prisoner. The prisoner has unkempt blonde hair and a ragged beard. He wears a bronze slave collar around his neck and wears only a long, soiled robe.... Pavis Royal Guardswoman: This woman has almost golden skin, and has blue eyes and red hair. She is tattooed with the Runes of Fire, Movement, and Man. She wears scale armor and is armed with a nomad bow, a kontos, and a bronze sword. She carries a standard of the Pavis Royal Guard.... Pavis County Militia: This man is clean-shaven in the style of Argrath, and wears only a skirt and a cloak. He is carrying the kontos of the Pavis Royal Guardswoman.... Real City Militia: This golden-skinned woman is from Zebra Fort in the Big Rubble. She wears an ornate broad-brimmed hat and is armed with a bow. She carries the helmet of the Pavis Royal Guardswoman." 

Besides the obvious prisoner reference, note how many are associated with the Pavis Royal Guard, which is what the Zebra Riders have morphed into. They are undoubtedly one of the new powers controlling access to the Big Rubble.

 

PostSackofPavis.JPG

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11 hours ago, Glorion said:

some of my players will start wondering if the Lunars are really so bad after all

And that's part of the dilemma of the Hero Wars! Are the Lunars really so bad? And what about Argrath, who is busily destroying all traditions, allying with all sorts of strange folk including Tricksters, and using forbidden magics?

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Jajagappa: Good to know they didn't just automatically execute all Lunar officials. But what I'm really interested in, as my adventurers are *not* headed to Pavis for Big Rubble looting purposes, is what happens to the civilian population, Pavisite, Lunar and otherwise. Whatever Argrath's intentions were, it seems like Jaldon and his boys and girls were not terribly interested in what Argrath had to say about what to do when the walls went down, at least until they all passed out dead drunk. Even some of the "New Teeth," Argrath's followers in Pavis, narrowly escaped being killed. (BTW, my impression is that in RQG at least the idea of "multiple Argraths" has been abandoned. I visualize Argrath zipping around with Orlanthi movement magic to be able to almost be in multiple places at the same time.)

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