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School me on the Changes to the Malkioni


smiorgan

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  • 1 year later...

Five years since we kicked off this thread speculating about the Malkioni in the current version of Glorantha.

Wow time flies...😁

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" Sure it's fun, but it is also well known that a D20 roll and an AC is no match against a hefty swing of a D100% and a D20 Hit Location Table!"

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But now we have the definitive version of the no longer canonical interpretation of the Seshnegi in print. Sadly the Loskalmi document "Book of Joy" has gone into the deepest Underworld, and is jealously guarded by Subere, as Newt folded all Glorantha publications.

 

Debates on sorcery never end...

Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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@JeffSorry if this came across as unfair criticism. No such thing was intended.

 

I'm in favor of the direction sorcery has taken onwards from HQG with the six techniques, and applying them to the runes to create spells in RQG.

The doubled casting time per magic point compared to rune magic or spirit magic is a design choice that I would have liked to understand in a world context. But then, looking at some of the meta-rules of sorcery spells, these spells almost act like insubstantial creatures summoned from the sorcery plane, making a temporary manifestation carried by the magic (MP) the sorcerer powered them with. It is always the spell strength of a sorcery spell that is matched with the characteristics of a target, never the POW or MP of the sorcerer as a person, so maybe that melee round is the minimum time to manifest that sorcerous entity in the Middle World.

I'm on the record (Codex fanzine issue 3) to have suggested pre-medieval heavy lancers for Malkioni "chivalry" (nowadays men-of-all) more than 25 years ago, which means I never bought into the "The First Knight" style aesthetics for anywhere in Glorantha. 

 

RuneQuest sorcery and Glorantha didn't start that harmoniously with RQ3, and despite a lot of hard work to make the rules fit (Arlaten), I was never quite satisfied with what RQ3 had to offer in Gloranthan context.

The shift in the depiction of Malkionism happened some time between the publication of "Middle Sea Empire" which is full of articles where Malkionism is depicted as something happening "in churches" and the presentation of the West in the Guide.

I know how hard it is to take Greg's thoughts from MSE and turn them into a terminology devoid of vanilla medieval associations while keeping much of the text intact because I have tried to do that.

I agree completely that one should not take any real world religion or philosophy and apply it 1:1 on Glorantha.

 

I would like to see some notion how non-zzaburi Malkioni interact with the Invisible God. A short example how a Malkioni wizard leads a group of worshipers through a service, how he forwards the magic (is the chain of veneration still a thing?) and how much he can take out of that energy for the purpose of doing magic for the community. Such a description would go a long way to get a feeling for Malkioni society.

And yes, I will probably ask for more details on how such things vary between different schools of philosophy (loskalmi, rokari, non-rokari Safelstrans). Or for guidelines to create such.

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Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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Yeah I am toying with getting Men Of The West, it does look pretty good. 

However after changing the Malkioni depiction several times, I really would love to see some more official canon for the Malkioni. 

I never really get into the debates regarding magic and such, I don't really care if Malkioni use Sorcery or Rune Magic. The later would have been preferable, just to un-complicate matters, but that horse bolted several decades ago, so I just go with the flow.

I am more interested in how these fantasy cultures are presented, and what historical civilisations can be considered analogies to be blended together, to give us a sense of how to portray these unique cultures in Glorantha.

I'm seeing some Vedic influences at times, primarily with the emphasis of Caste etc which is almost a different sub-culture within each regional culture of Malkioni. I really like the notion that Caste isn't just another version of 'social class', but it encompasses role, magic, destiny, etc. Will be very interested in how far this idea goes with RQG.

I tend to view the Horali as being similar to Byzantine and Sassanid Cataphracts. That works for me at present, but I'm interestred where the canon goes with it.

It's funny, after reading some Tales Of The Arabian Nights and watching some Sinbad movies, I've started to envision the Malkioni having lots in common with Mythical Arabia. Not sure why, but some of the G2G artwork hints at this as well, and I can easily see Sinbad being Dormali.

I also envison some flavour coming from Slavic folkore, especially the colder regions like Fronela. Not sure why, but the Zzubari tend to feel like Eastern European Orthodox scholars and Priests to me.

Will be interesting to see what the canon Malkioni are like, but some of the these analogies work for me 

Edited by Mankcam
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" Sure it's fun, but it is also well known that a D20 roll and an AC is no match against a hefty swing of a D100% and a D20 Hit Location Table!"

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1 hour ago, Mankcam said:

I tend to view the Horali as being similar to Byzantine and Sassanid Cataphracts. That works for me at present, but I'm interestred where the canon goes with it.

That depends on the region/cult, I think. Rokari and Brithini horsemen are, if I've understood it correctly, mostly Talars, whereas Horali (or rather, Men-of-All) horsemen are probably more common among Hrestoli and others (Loskalm, Castle Coast, etc.). For the Rokari (Seshnelans and surroundings), Horali are mostly foot soldiers, I think. 

I could be wrong, but that's the impression I've gotten from the Guide and discussions here. 

The comparison to cataphracts is, however, pretty spot on, regardless. 

1 hour ago, Mankcam said:

It's funny, after reading some Tales Of The Arabian Nights and watching some Sinbad movies, I've started to envision the Malkioni having lots in common with Mythical Arabia. Not sure why, but some of the G2G artwork hints at this as well, and I can easily see Sinbad being Dormali.

 

Some of the artwork in the Guide features domed buildings and rich, vivid textiles, etc. Stuff that while possibly more directly borrowed from India, can evoke the Middle-East/North Africa as well. Not to mention, the Malkioni have a rich history of seamanship (which, admittedly, is only recently being rediscovered) so that probably skews the impression towards Sinbad and other mythical Indian Sea traders. Albeit with triremes and the like instead of dhows. 

1 hour ago, Mankcam said:

I also envison some flavour coming from Slavic folkore, especially the colder regions like Fronela. Not sure why, but the Zzubari tend to feel like Eastern European Orthodox scholars and Priests to me.

The guide, iirc, has a picture of Fronelan (Loskalmi?) Zzaburi looking straight up like a mix of Judaic priests and Russian Boyars, in front of onion-domed architecture. Sog City also has onion-domed architecture, which kinda mixes (imho) Eastern (Central Asian?) and Slavic influences. 

There's also artwork of a Pithdaran Zzaburi in the Guide wearing fur-lined clothing in the subtropical Seshnela, emphasizing how Rokari caste ideals hearken back to the Ice Age, iirc. Another trigger for Russian imagery, perhaps. 

In addition, the Zzaburi have the same breastplates as the Judaic Kohenim had, and presumably among the Zzaburi, a similarly scholarly and literature-heavy culture as some Jewish diasporic groups migght thrive, without me really knowing too much about how that worked in practice. They're also quite a lot like the Brahmins of course, with priests in both cultures being subject to a number of cleanliness taboos. 

Anyway, this could go on for ages. The Guide illustrates a lot to get a look and feel for them. Sorta Indian-Persian-Byzantine-Central-Asian-Slavic kind of folk, with different regions expressing different influences to different degree. This is not limited to soldiery and armor, of course. Based on what I've seen of Men of the West in the example thread on this forum, it does a pretty comprehensive job of illustrating the military side of things.

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15 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

That depends on the region/cult, I think. Rokari and Brithini horsemen are, if I've understood it correctly, mostly Talars, whereas Horali (or rather, Men-of-All) horsemen are probably more common among Hrestoli and others (Loskalm, Castle Coast, etc.). For the Rokari (Seshnelans and surroundings), Horali are mostly foot soldiers, I think.

Seshnela does have some mounted Horali. The colour plate in the Seshnela chapter shows one, and it's mentioned that although most regiments fight on foot, a few are mounted.

It's likely that whether a warrior is mounted or not may be connected to their martial beast, and certainly the Horse Society of Fornalaor is noted as being famed for their cavalry.

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17 hours ago, Mankcam said:

I am more interested in how these fantasy cultures are presented, and what historical civilisations can be considered analogies to be blended together, to give us a sense of how to portray these unique cultures in Glorantha.

I'm seeing some Vedic influences at times, primarily with the emphasis of Caste etc which is almost a different sub-culture within each regional culture of Malkioni. I really like the notion that Caste isn't just another version of 'social class', but it encompasses role, magic, destiny, etc. Will be very interested in how far this idea goes with RQG.

The 'take' in Men of the West uses a variety of inspirations, ranging from Indo-Bactrian-Greek, Sassanian, other Persians, Byzantine, to northern India, and a small dash of Kievan Rus.

By necessity, in addition to the military, Men of the West has to delve some way into the cultures and religions.

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On 11/16/2020 at 4:35 AM, M Helsdon said:

The 'take' in Men of the West uses a variety of inspirations, ranging from Indo-Bactrian-Greek, Sassanian, other Persians, Byzantine, to northern India, and a small dash of Kievan Rus.

By necessity, in addition to the military, Men of the West has to delve some way into the cultures and religions.

Sounds good to me, and may fill the gap until more canon is published.

It has been 5 years of waiting so far, and another five years could easily be on the horizon for more official Malkioni content.

It's entirely understandable, given the amount of content needed just to flesh out Dragon Pass, as I am just as eager for more publications on Sartar, Prax, Esrolia, and also the Lunars - at least Dara Happa and Peloria.

So any official Malkioni publications may be some time away. 

However if it ends up being 2025 then its doubtful what troupe I will have to run it with by then. That would have been a decade or so after the G2G, and even then that may be too soon.

Would really love some resources on Safelster, Seshnela, Castle Coast, New Coast, just for starters. Then the Janube Cities etc 

So yeah, although its not canon, I think Men of the West will fill the gap nicely, and its something I can sink my teeth into before my hair gets too grey.

Edited by Mankcam
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" Sure it's fun, but it is also well known that a D20 roll and an AC is no match against a hefty swing of a D100% and a D20 Hit Location Table!"

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2 hours ago, Mankcam said:

It has been 5 years of waiting so far, and another five years could easily be on the horizon for more official Malkioni content.

I saw a post from Jeff on Facebook that was saying about how they might have cracked Malkionism. He sounded quite enthusiastic about it.

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Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. 

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12 hours ago, soltakss said:

I saw a post from Jeff on Facebook that was saying about how they might have cracked Malkionism. He sounded quite enthusiastic about it.

hhhmm I'm on the FB Group but must of missed that post. Now that does sound promising!

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  • 6 months later...
On 8/19/2016 at 9:03 PM, metcalph said:

More importantly you are criticizing my equation Joy = Illumination on the on the grounds that they are subjectively different.  I quite agree  But I was equating Joy with Illumination on the grounds that both conferred similar cosmic awareness as the HeroQuest: Glorantha rulebook also said was the case for Draconic mysticism, Eastern Isles Sagely wisdom, the Cult of Silence and whomever is fooling around with God Learner artifacts in Jrustela.  Do all these ways yield the same (or even similar) mental insight?  Almost certainly not!  But the effect of the acquisition of this knowledge is largely similar and in broad strokes can be summed up in the seven illumination abilities (as per HQ:G p204).  

I agree with you metcalph.  I think that the problem here is the lack of clarity about how Mysticism works.  We have a very limited and unsatisfactory version of it delineated in the illumination write-up, wherein it is represented as a cruel parody of Zen Buddhism.  This ignores the rich mystical traditions of countless societies IRL, some of them which would be considered shamanistic, while others would be theistic, and others would be considered sorcery.  

Clearly there are and should be overlaps between sorcery, theism and shamanism, from the friction of these cultures and their encounters, but apparently this doesn't extend to mysticism, as there are no rules for mysticism, except for the rump of the dead Nysalor cult and its pseudo-resurrection by the Lunars.

Frankly, the way it is written up, "Joy" sounds like nothing more than what a theist society would call "initiation", except into the worship of the Invisible God (What rune spells does he supply?).  Clearly it has to be more than that, AND if the invisible god is the ultimate power of reason for Glorantha, then this should be a very different mystical revelation...

Rather than the nihilistic view of Nysalor's illumination, which undoes reason, society, and existence, potentially the Invisible God as the reason that guides the world should provide an affirmation of all such things and their correct place in the scheme of things; an intricate abstraction of the interrelationships between all things and how they connect.  After all, the core mechanics of mysticism are about correct argument and the refutation of false points of view if the Stafford Library is to be considered our major source.

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3 hours ago, John Biles said:

So is Joy a long-term state?  My understanding was that Joy of the Heart was something experienced through Hrestoli practices but which wasn't a permanent state.  (I also saw it as being more like a kind of state of, well, joy and being indefagitable)

 

It's forever when you're dead.  It's brief when you're alive although some Hrestoli might have longer states.

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10 hours ago, metcalph said:

It's forever when you're dead.  It's brief when you're alive although some Hrestoli might have longer states.

It’s rather like Erotocomatose Lucidity, but without any naughty bits involved. And you can get there by yourself without going blind.

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