Allegiance & Apotheosis

[tooley1chris]

So with Chroniclers Companion pushed to the back burner  (or maybe tossed in the freezer for later) and the authors removal of a shiny new Allegiance System, I'm a bit stuck.

Working on the conversion of Complete Netbook of Witches and Warlocks to be MW compatible I've run into a snag incorporating the "goddess" aspect of witchcraft. Yes, I could still use the trinity "Light, Balance, & Shadow " but I've replaced a witches Apotheosis with Occult Powers based on her Allegiance to her deity. 

So...Keeping in mind a future conversion of Deities & Demigods to MW I've been working on a Sub-Allegiance system so that certain "higher powers" have specialized rewards for Apotheosis like dedication to that entity. 

Lord, I hope that makes sense.

Anyway, if you (much more brilliant people) can make sense out of what I've typed above ...how would YOU do it? Should I maintain the Prime Allegiances of Light, Balance, Shadow and add Sub-Allegiance to specific entities? 

Should specific entities have their own Allegiance that are added to the three primes? 

Should every pantheon have their own list of ways to increase/decrease their allegiance, as well as their own rewards for Apothosis?

Someone shine a light on this please!

Edited November 3, 2015 by tooley1chris

[Vexthug]

I would make it a skill like piety from MRQ2. Bonuses and penalties can be added depending on your allegiance score and your gods allegiance.

Passions from RQ6 is also another way of doing this, and could be a lot less book keeping.

Just my 2 cents, I like to keep my games simple so the less fiddly the better.

Keep up the good work, I've enjoyed all the stuff you've done so far

Miles

[tooley1chris]

6 minutes ago, Vexthug said:

I would make it a skill like piety from MRQ2. Bonuses and penalties can be added depending on your allegiance score and your gods allegiance.

Passions from RQ6 is also another way of doing this, and could be a lot less book keeping.

Just my 2 cents, I like to keep my games simple so the less fiddly the better.

Keep up the good work, I've enjoyed all the stuff you've done so far

Miles

I was also Thinking this was getting a bit crunchy. Can you tell me A little about RQ6 passions?

[Vexthug]

This is an excerpt from the book page 124 , If you don't already have it already here's a link to the RQ6 essentials pdf.

 http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/130816/RuneQuest-Essentials?src=hottest_filtered&filters=0_0_1500_0_0

I don't run my games With RQ6 but I do steal a bit from it. 

Miles

In summary, Passions can be used thus:
҉҉To augment another skill, reflecting the
depth of one’s feeling and how it drives
action.
When used in this regard the Passion
adds 20% of its value to a skill being
used, as long as the augmentation is thematically
and dramatically important.
҉҉As an ability in its own right to drive
choices, desires and emotional actions
and responses.
When used in this way a standard roll
is made against a Passion to determine
how strongly the character thinks and
feels about something. If a roll is a success
then the character acts in-line with
what the Passion would dictate. If the
roll fails then the character can act freely
without feeling constrained by the Passion’s
drives.
҉҉To oppose other Passions – even those
held by the same character. This is typically
used where two Passions would
conflict. For instance a personal love
might dictate a course of action that
would be contrary to an oath or loyalty.
Here use an opposed roll between the
two Passions with the more successful
determining how the character acts.
҉҉As a general measure of depth of commitment,
belief and loyalty to a cause.
The higher the Passion’s value, the more
committed the character is. Characters
with similar Passions can compare and
contrast their ratings to determine who
exhibits the deeper commitment.
҉҉To resist some form of psychological
manipulation or magical domination. In
certain cases where a character is being
forced into performing an act contrary
to his Passions, he may use substitute
his Passion for the usual Willpower in
the opposed roll.

[tooley1chris]

Woah! I really don't like a roll determining how a players character should act. If I'm reading your description correctly if a character comes into a situation where they want to act outside of their "passion" a roll is required to do so. I can't do that.

I much more prefer rewards/punishments for acting in favor of or against their Allegiance. Players have incentive to act in certain ways but are by no means required to.

In the case of my Witch occupation,  she strives to please her deity who grants her power. But if she does something contrary to her belief system (allegiance) she may "fall from grace".

In any case that choice is the players. Not based on a roll against her allegiance.

[Baulderstone]

4 hours ago, tooley1chris said:

Woah! I really don't like a roll determining how a players character should act. If I'm reading your description correctly if a character comes into a situation where they want to act outside of their "passion" a roll is required to do so. I can't do that.

I much more prefer rewards/punishments for acting in favor of or against their Allegiance. Players have incentive to act in certain ways but are by no means required to.

In the case of my Witch occupation,  she strives to please her deity who grants her power. But if she does something contrary to her belief system (allegiance) she may "fall from grace".

In any case that choice is the players. Not based on a roll against her allegiance.

Passions don't seem a good fit for what you are measuring anyway. In RQ 6, taking Passions is purely optional for PCs. They have their good sides, in that you can use them to augment rolls, but you pay the price of them taking control at times. The represent how someone feels about something, and so are internal. 

With Allegiances, you seem to be measuring how many brownie points a player has with their deity. In a game using both Passions and Allegiances, I could see them diverging quite a bit. A player could have a high Passion for their deity, but could be so over-zealous that they were counterproductive in achieving their deity's goals, resulting in a middling Allegiance score. Someone with a modest Passion might be more effective at accomplishing things, giving them a high Allegiance. 

Put another way, a Passion would be how a character felt about their god, while Allegiance would be how their god felt about them. 

[tooley1chris]

18 hours ago, Vexthug said:

I would make it a skill like piety from MRQ2. Bonuses and penalties can be added depending on your allegiance score and your gods allegiance.

Passions from RQ6 is also another way of doing this, and could be a lot less book keeping.

Just my 2 cents, I like to keep my games simple so the less fiddly the better.

Keep up the good work, I've enjoyed all the stuff you've done so far

Miles

I was also Thinking this was getting a bit crunchy. Can you tell me A little about RQ6 passions?

Edited November 4, 2015 by tooley1chris

[tooley1chris]

Sorry. This new update hates me and since Im no longer a mod I can't erase a double post. that's  a good explanation Baulderstone. But that seems even more complex then what I'm trying to do.

Edited November 4, 2015 by tooley1chris

[tooley1chris]

I'm leaning towards adding new sub-Allegiances to the current three. Worshipping a deity who's alligned with Light, say Zeus,  would allow an allegiance to Zeus that goes hand in hand with Light but has different rules for raising /lowering allegiance scores as well as different benefits for apotheosis.

[Baulderstone]

35 minutes ago, tooley1chris said:

Sorry. This new update hates me and since Im no longer a mod I can't erase a double post. that's  a good explanation Baulderstone. But that seems even more complex then what I'm trying to do.

I agree. I was arguing that it wasn't what you you were looking for. And I say that as someone that likes the Passion system in RQ 6. 

[NickMiddleton]

14 hours ago, tooley1chris said:

I'm leaning towards adding new sub-Allegiances to the current three. Worshipping a deity who's alligned with Light, say Zeus,  would allow an allegiance to Zeus that goes hand in hand with Light but has different rules for raising /lowering allegiance scores as well as different benefits for apotheosis.

In Ulfland (my BRP fantasy setting I wrote up for uncounted Worlds 1 and which I may yet "retool" for Marcus'  Magic World site) religion involved specific Allegiance to a deity. So there were the great forces (Weaving and Unweaving), but most characters were defined by their Allegiance to a specific deity. Characters could have more than one (and commonly people respected MOST of the Pantheon), but priests were devoted to a specific Deity and their access to powers depended on their allegiance being sufficient for them to be Allied to that deity. Each deity had specific lists of "positive" and "negative" things for raising / lowering alleigance.

In the original write up I didn't get in to the details, but somewhere I have a set of notes on variant powers of Apotheosis derived from the BRP Super Powers section and stuff fro some of the old Stormbringer monographs.

Nick

[Chaot]

Just chiming in to say that I would also use the Allegiance tally system for specific cults.

One way to do this and have it work a little different than the three primes is to make a cult's Allegiance more 'static.'  The three primes are built by continuously acting in a certain manner.  A cultish Allegiance might be built up from specific religious or magical rituals.  Your witch might harvest the moon every month, spending a full night in worship.  As long as she continues performing her ritual every month she maintains 5 points of Allegiance.  She needs to have enough rituals and practices to maintain 20 Allegiance points to be considered 'aligned' with the power/deity.  When she breaks with the tradition or violates the taboo she looses those points and is no longer aligned.

[Aycorn]

5 hours ago, Chaot said:

Just chiming in to say that I would also use the Allegiance tally system for specific cults.

One way to do this and have it work a little different than the three primes is to make a cult's Allegiance more 'static.'  The three primes are built by continuously acting in a certain manner.  A cultish Allegiance might be built up from specific religious or magical rituals.  Your witch might harvest the moon every month, spending a full night in worship.  As long as she continues performing her ritual every month she maintains 5 points of Allegiance.  She needs to have enough rituals and practices to maintain 20 Allegiance points to be considered 'aligned' with the power/deity.  When she breaks with the tradition or violates the taboo she looses those points and is no longer aligned.

I'll second that.  In my campaign there's a short list for each individual cult/deity.  It could be things as simple as performing the expected rituals, observing the holy days, etc.  For a war god it might be every slain enemy dedicated to them ("This one's for you, Ares!!!"), for a ferility god it might knocking someone up/getting pregnant, a successful birth. Building a shrine or temple to any deity ought to earn some points. In my campaign you can also lose Allegiance points by breaking taboos.  It doesn't have to be a terribly long list.

[Questbird]

Mythic Iceland does allegiance to specific deities and religions, rewarding high allegiance with certain powers. Celestial Empire also does well at representing allegiance to multiple (real-world historical) religions. I use allegiance to power priests' magic: 1 power point from the priest and the rest from his allegiance points to his god. Even if you run a no-magic campaign you can exchange X allegiance points for a favour from your temple or tribe.

[tooley1chris]

Alright. Thanks guys. Good advice!