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Bisos is the leader who liberated Oronin from the Vadeli (or Veldang, or both). He is probably the easternmost herd beast rider who had to deal with Vadeli conquerors.

The Oroninelans are not Vadeli or Veldang but Waertagi, according to the Glorantha Sourcebook when it describes the Waertagi mertribe (which is an updated version of the Wartain mertribe that appears in Wyrms Footprints).  Specifically "One of the newer clans was a river-clan in Fronela who also later helped populate the freshwater Sweet Sea between Fronela and Peloria."

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5 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

From the material in the Guide, it seems likely that a large number of modern Orlanthi are descendants of Hsunchen peoples, especially in Ralios, Jonatela and western Peloria.

Yes, that was behind that exploration. Even when you look at the Vingkotlings and Heortlings you find indications of Hsunchen-like behavior.

5 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

There seem to be more Blue People than just the Vadeli or Veldang.

Yes, I should mention the Zzaburi behind the Janube invasion that created the Sweet Sea, but they didn't quite reach towards Mt. Turos. The Helerings aren't really an option for the Oronin region, and Jarkartu's Artmali are a stretch at best. I don't see Waertagi this far up the rivers, and neither Loper People. This about sums up the Storm Age blue folk. Vadeli is my best bet, chaos-consorting Jarkartu Artmali a distant second choice.

5 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Given what eventually happened to them, God Learner genealogies are all suspect, and potentially corrupted numerous myth cycles. The Monomyth is obviously a construction, and there are so many inconsistencies in it that it can only be taken as a broad and undetailed source.

The main problem here is that the Jrusteli adopted the Ralian myths, embroidered them with Korgatsu and Fiwan facts, and obscured the Brithini myths of the original westerners. I'm only looking at beast myths here, not the overall Monomyth. The identification of Hykim and Mikyh with dragons may stem from their desperate attempt to get a handle on the EWF and Kralori stuff, with Korgatsu offering an opening.

5 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

True. But are Eiritha and Uralda masks of the same goddess, filtered via two different cultures, or are they sister deities?

 

Eiritha is difficult, because of her ties to Genert's Garden and the great devastations that removed so many myths of that.

 

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14 hours ago, Pentallion said:

So does that make Waha a Brithini? 

No, he's a son of Urox / Storm Bull / Bisos... 8-)

14 hours ago, Pentallion said:

Does that mean the morokanth beast men refused to abandon their beast-selves after the Brithini cast the sorcerous form of Release  Intelligence upon them?  They "cheated" because they got their intelligence unfixed, but retained their beast form?

I'd take the quoted text with several pinches of salt...

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9 hours ago, Joerg said:

This about sums up the Storm Age blue folk. Vadeli is my best bet, chaos-consorting Jarkartu Artmali a distant second choice.

The Blue People of Peloria also include a variety of water entities, who were defeated by Bisos and others.

9 hours ago, Joerg said:

The main problem here is that the Jrusteli adopted the Ralian myths, embroidered them with Korgatsu and Fiwan facts, and obscured the Brithini myths of the original westerners. I'm only looking at beast myths here, not the overall Monomyth. The identification of Hykim and Mikyh with dragons may stem from their desperate attempt to get a handle on the EWF and Kralori stuff, with Korgatsu offering an opening.

I'd take everything of God Learner origin as suspect. It's a bit like trying to extrapolate terrestrial Greek Bronze Age religions from the Greek Myths: fraught with risk. This is best illustrated by the very erudite trickster Robert Graves who attempted to extract religion (and history) from the Greek Myths, eventually culminating in The White Goddess, which is a collection of speculation. For that matter, his Claudius novels are so popular some people take them as historical... The reputation of Livia Drusilla has forever been tarnished. 8-)

9 hours ago, Joerg said:

Eiritha is difficult, because of her ties to Genert's Garden and the great devastations that removed so many myths of that.

We're basically in the same position for all pre-Dawn events - where the human populations at the Dawn were small and more concerned with surviving - and most were probably illiterate, so what ever stories they did tell each other are now buried under centuries of supposition. Take, for example, the Ten Cities of Dara Happan myth. As you've noted at least one is suspect, and the number of cities may simply be an expression of the dara Happan belief that ten is the perfect number (though why, then, did Yelm have eight 'sons'?)

Edited by M Helsdon

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2 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

... the dara Happan belief that ten is the perfect number (though why, then, did Yelm have eight 'sons'?)

2 were lost beyond memory to Chaos?  un-Made, as if there had only ever been 8 ...

 

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2 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

the very erudite trickster Robert Graves who attempted to extract religion (and history) from the Greek Myths, eventually culminating in The White Goddess, which is a collection of speculation.

On the third hand, without the White Goddess and her sister books we would be unlikely to have the Red Moon Empire or be here to talk about it, so I'm inclined to be a little kinder to his enthusiastic overreach.

Likewise, on the viability of God Learner sources, in many if not most cases they are all we have, so even if that bathwater is filthy it's our best shot at recovering the baby.

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16 hours ago, Pentallion said:

So does that make Waha a Brithini?

Not quite.

2 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

No, he's a son of Urox / Storm Bull / Bisos... 8-)

But it may not be as simple as this.

The story takes place in the Golden Age, back before the Brithini had become the Brithini, back before the gods rebelled, back before anything bad happened.

This was the time of Zzabur, Dronar, Enroval, Worlath, Malkion, and the other Erasanchula/Runic Beings/Gods. The Brithini might record that Urox (maybe under a name like Aurosh or similar) was one of the Gods who went to teach the beasts how to be true men, but became corrupted by their bestial nature, joining with their pagan ways.

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13 hours ago, metcalph said:

The Oroninelans are not Vadeli or Veldang but Waertagi, according to the Glorantha Sourcebook when it describes the Waertagi mertribe (which is an updated version of the Wartain mertribe that appears in Wyrms Footprints).  Specifically "One of the newer clans was a river-clan in Fronela who also later helped populate the freshwater Sweet Sea between Fronela and Peloria."

That explains Janubians (whose river was made with the aid of the "Brithini") and the Sweet Sea people, and possibly Listor, the Porals, and King Oronin, but not YarGan and his Logicians.

2 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

The Blue People of Peloria also include a variety of water entities, who were defeated by Bisos and others.

The Veldang - naval chaotic worshippers of Chaos under or after Jarkartu - still are a valid candidate.

2 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

I'd take everything of God Learner origin as suspect. It's a bit like trying to extrapolate terrestrial Greek Bronze Age religions from the Greek Myths: fraught with risk.

Sure, we cannot take anything from the Monomyth as how it was before Jrusteli meddling (with the intention to adjust reality to the model).

 

2 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

We're basically in the same position for all pre-Dawn events - where the human populations at the Dawn were small and more concerned with surviving - and most were probably illiterate, so what ever stories they did tell each other are now buried under centuries of supposition.

I would agree with you if you didn't have the possibility to enter Cyclical Godtime and experience however subjective impressions of the Godtime events through the cults and their myths and the connected magics, which do impact their ways for survival.

2 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Take, for example, the Ten Cities of Dara Happan myth. As you've noted at least one is suspect, and the number of cities may simply be an expression of the dara Happan belief that ten is the perfect number (though why, then, did Yelm have eight 'sons'?)

Yelm's eight sons correspond to the eight cities on the inner and outer circle of Murharzarm's Empire. If you add Murharzarm and (dubiously) Buserian, you get ten sons, but basically it is Yelm in the City Above and nine sons in the Cities Below. In the Sky, the orb of Raibamus isn't perceived against the unbearable brightness of Yelm.

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45 minutes ago, Joerg said:

The Veldang - naval chaotic worshippers of Chaos under or after Jarkartu - still are a valid candidate.

Perhaps. Perhaps not.

http://www.glorantha.com/docs/bluepeople/

47 minutes ago, Joerg said:

I would agree with you if you didn't have the possibility to enter Cyclical Godtime and experience however subjective impressions of the Godtime events through the cults and their myths and the connected magics, which do impact their ways for survival.

I suspect that the imprint of God Time can be eroded by heroquesters and their beliefs.

 

48 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Yelm's eight sons correspond to the eight cities on the inner and outer circle of Murharzarm's Empire. If you add Murharzarm and (dubiously) Buserian, you get ten sons, but basically it is Yelm in the City Above and nine sons in the Cities Below. In the Sky, the orb of Raibamus isn't perceived against the unbearable brightness of Yelm.

It is dubious whether all the cities correlate to Yelm's sons.

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1 hour ago, scott-martin said:

On the third hand, without the White Goddess and her sister books we would be unlikely to have the Red Moon Empire or be here to talk about it, so I'm inclined to be a little kinder to his enthusiastic overreach.

Perhaps, but The White Goddess is unlikely to reflect any ancient terrestrial culture.

1 hour ago, scott-martin said:

Likewise, on the viability of God Learner sources, in many if not most cases they are all we have, so even if that bathwater is filthy it's our best shot at recovering the baby.

The baby cannot be recovered. Too much time and too much interference. The only things that can be studied with any pretense of accuracy are cultures in Time, before that, there's too much contradiction, which makes it just like terrestrial mythologies that are rarely as neat and tidy as often assumed. For example, there's an obvious correlation between Zeus, Teshub, Dyaus, Jupiter, etc. but when you burrow further down you find that the attributes of Zeus of one place are different to the Zeus of another place. This makes the mythology of Glorantha more satisfying because it isn't all delineated like most fictional mythologies.

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1 minute ago, M Helsdon said:

I suspect that the imprint of God Time can be eroded by heroquesters and their beliefs.

Yes, it can, and it was, but only after the Dawn, after the peoples had multiplied to an extent that such memories could be passed on, whether in stories, writing, or art.

The Lightbringer Missionaries approached benighted communities by telling some of their native Godtime stories, in order to find out whether the group they approached resonated, and provided appropriate reactions. These possibly rote memories of the Godtime provided the link of the benighted ones with the missionaries, and allowed them to be awakened to the World of Time.

1 minute ago, M Helsdon said:

It is dubious whether all the cities correlate to Yelm's sons.

True - the far western city was the city of Turos, or Below, and the far eastern city was that of Zayteneras, or Above.

More doubt needs to be cast on the gender of Yelm's sons, or their exact names and roles. Another correlation has the four cardinal cities and the four corners of the world connected to the eight planetary sons. The name Kargzant appears only in GRoY and the syncretic version of the Copper Tablets commentaries (provided in Heortling Mythology), not in the Guide (that has Reladivus).

Murharzarm was not a planetary son. Raibamus may have been a lower or middle sky orb, much like the Manarlarvus era Antirius.

7 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

Perhaps, but The White Goddess is unlikely to reflect any ancient terrestrial culture.

Much like e.g. the Cult of Yelm (especially as published in the long format for RQ3) is unlikely to reflect any ancient or modern Gloranthan culture.

7 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

The baby cannot be recovered. Too much time and too much interference.

We will receive multiple versions of any Godtime event, each as reported and remembered by the participants and potential neutral witnesses.

Now, this is hardly different from an event in our modern day when you let witnesses and participants describe it afterwards. Memory is always subjective. Collective memories concentrate on the central and shared memes, though, and these can be recovered.

Especially since changing the Other Side permanently takes so much effort. If you find a deadwater beyond active meddling by God Learners and adaptation to temporally different realities (Bright Empire, EWF, Glowline), and documentation from an earlier age (through art, poetry or writing) you will get clues.

You will never get the exact individual experience of a participant in the events, whether within or before Time. Not even your own.

7 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

The only things that can be studied with any pretense of accuracy are cultures in Time,

Only inasmuch as you can study a culture at all. You can observe its activities from internal and external perspectives, or you can participate in them and never notice any day-to-day changes even during periods of drastic alteration of your culture.

7 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

before that, there's too much contradiction, which makes it just like terrestrial mythologies that are rarely as neat and tidy as often assumed.

More importantly, a participant in a culture has unstated concepts of context that no observer can report with any accuracy. If the observer is an active member of the culture, he will always make assumptions about how things are, or are supposed to be, without ever mentioning them.

If you can tell the exact myth, you will know that it has been fabricated. If you can tell an optimal approximation of a myth, you are an insider.

7 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

For example, there's an obvious correlation between Zeus, Teshub, Dyaus, Jupiter, etc. but when you burrow further down you find that the attributes of Zeus of one place are different to the Zeus of another place. This makes the mythology of Glorantha more satisfying because it isn't all delineated like most fictional mythologies.

These different aspects aren't contradictions. They are the way gods work, and how gods are different from simple, one-dimensional mortals. Already a simple heroquester in a practice quest or a high holy day initiate worshipper will be multi-local and multi-temporal, with a representation of himself in the myths, and one in the mundane place where the magical ceremony is held. Gods are a lot more like that.

Now, gods did walk the "mundane world" in Godtime, with the caveat that any one observation of a deity and its actions doesn't mean that you know the full truth about this deity.

 

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17 minutes ago, Joerg said:

We will receive multiple versions of any Godtime event, each as reported and remembered by the participants and potential neutral witnesses.

Except that often even where the versions seem to relate to the same event, they are often contradictory.

It is possible to say what different cultures believe to be the Truth, but it is not possible to uncover the actual Truth. In-world, this is apparent because the Goddess of Truth is now very distant and aloof from the mortal world.

This is why I cited sources but didn't come to any conclusions when assessing Bull or Horse deities. There are some apparent connections, most of which suggest underlying complexities we can't resolve. And, if we could, it would make the world too black and white.

Now, that certainty is necessary in roleplaying most player characters (unless they are Illuminated) but it doesn't reflect the 'real' world where well defined areas of doubt and uncertainty enhance the richness of the fictional world.

17 minutes ago, Joerg said:

These different aspects aren't contradictions. They are the way gods work, and how gods are different from simple, one-dimensional mortals. Already a simple heroquester in a practice quest or a high holy day initiate worshipper will be multi-local and multi-temporal, with a representation of himself in the myths, and one in the mundane place where the magical ceremony is held. Gods are a lot more like that.

There seem to be far fewer gods in Glorantha that might be assumed: Shargash and Tolat seem to be different (very different) aspects of the same entity, and of course some Dara Happans believe Orlanth is a version of Shargash...

Most of the detailed mythic material we have relates to a fairly small geographic area for the core cultures, with a few outliers, which are often wildly divergent. And I suspect the core cultures are far less monolithic than they appear.

Edited by M Helsdon

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1 hour ago, Joerg said:

That explains Janubians (whose river was made with the aid of the "Brithini") and the Sweet Sea people, and possibly Listor, the Porals, and King Oronin, but not YarGan and his Logicians.

Why not?  The Logicians are people from Akem.

Quote

When the gods took this plan
among the men, they were accepted by some, and those
men are called the Logicians. They were a serious danger
now, because they had no connection with the Natural
World any more. They were especially popular in the west,
where they are called sorcerers.

Entekosiad p28

 YarGan was also known as IvinZoraRu a leader of the DediZoraRu (the Corpse-Blue People).  This is how the Bisosae remember them:
 

Quote

 

That summer the DediZoraRu came. These were the ones
who lived underwater, and always led the conquests.

Entekosiad p68

 

So the IvinZoraRu are not seen as a separate species of Blue People by the Bisosae.

 

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

The Veldang - naval chaotic worshippers of Chaos under or after Jarkartu - still are a valid candidate.

The Veldang are far too remote and there's no indication that YarGan is chaotic.  Who do you think the Logicians of Fronela would be more likely to be friends with?  The Waertagi or the Veldang?  Yes, YarGan is bad but he is a natural bad like a troll rather than a chaotic.  He even gets turned into a Good Guy, UpelviDedi, which wouldn't happen if he were chaotic.

 

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1 minute ago, M Helsdon said:

Except that often even where the versions seem to relate to the same event, they are often contradictory.

It is possible to say what different cultures believe to be the Truth, but it is not possible to uncover the actual Truth. In-world, this is apparent because the Goddess of Truth is now very distant and aloof from the mortal world.

This is why I cited sources but didn't come to any conclusions when assessing Bull or Horse deities. There are some apparent connections, most of which suggest underlying complexities we can't resolve. And, if we could, it would make the world too black and white.

Now, that certainty is necessary in roleplaying most player characters (unless they are Illuminated) but it doesn't reflect the 'real' world where well defined areas of doubt and uncertainty enhance the richness of the fictional world.

In a time when Alternate Truths have entered our real lives, it will be easy to get across that your character may know truths which objectively aren't.

No, we cannot resolve whether Gamara is Hippoi, or shapped after Hippoi, or whether there are more such deities (e.g. Gerra on the inverted pyramid).

I posit a migration prehistory for the Hyalorings from Genert's Garden into pre-Flood Saird, with the tamed remnants of Hippogriff as their steed. Their Yamsur was welcomed into the Thunder Tribe as Elmal, and he turned into Kargzant after Vuranostum was chosen as new emperor by the Hirenmador.

1 minute ago, M Helsdon said:

There seem to be far fewer gods in Glorantha that might be assumed: Shargash and Tolat seem to be different aspects of the same entity, and of course some Dara Happans believe Orlanth is a version of Shargash...

There are situations where Shargash and Tolat seem to be the same entities, and there are situations where they seem to be totally unrelated.

I am thoroughly convinced that the Planetary Son of Yelm which collided with Umath and followed him down to the ground is not identical to the one that emerged on the impact site and dismembered the primal Storm god, but a hybrid underworld/sky world entity.

Other occurrances of Shargash share aspects of Zorak Zoran (e.g. the dismembering of Umath, or at the Hill of Gold). In Ralian myth, Zolan is the twin of Anelha. In Artmali myth, Tolat is the brother of Veldara/Annilla.

The Shadzorings sound very much like Zorani unfettered by Kyger Litor.

The Dara Happan underworld has entities that are (aspects of) Lodril and Shargash and Zorak Zoran. In a way, the story of Lodril's captivity and rekindling in the Underworld is Lodril being a captive of Underworld Lodril.

Storm God slays blue dragon to liberate rain deity. Is Vadrus identical to Orlanth to Barntar? Is the Blue Woman exactly the same as Heler? Is Nestentos Aroka Oslir some other dragon (river)?

1 minute ago, M Helsdon said:

Most of the detailed mythic material we have relates to a fairly small geographic area for the core cultures, with a few outliers, which are often wildly divergent. And I suspect the core cultures are far less monolithic than they appear.

Yep.

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22 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Why not?  The Logicians are people from Akem.

Or Kachasti, or the Vadeli who rebelled against the Kachasti. Or all of that. I will state that the Logicians were not Artmali, Zaranistangi or Helerites.

22 minutes ago, metcalph said:

 YarGan was also known as IvinZoraRu a leader of the DediZoraRu (the Corpse-Blue People).  This is how the Bisosae remember them:

The blue enemies. The name is different from the name of the Sweet Sea blues.

YarGan slew King Oronin and took his crown, rendering himself immortal. This means he is of a different blue faction that Oronin, who appears to be a heir or successor of the Porals, children of Listor.

22 minutes ago, metcalph said:

So the IvinZoraRu are not seen as a separate species of Blue People by the Bisosae.

Why discriminate? They had pledged their assistance to YarGan, so Bisos had to face and overcome YarGan to break their magic.

22 minutes ago, metcalph said:

The Veldang are far too remote and there's no indication that YarGan is chaotic.

Just because the Artmali consorted with Chaos doesn't mean that all of them were chaotic. They were major badasses, and they plundered everywhere. The Neliomi coast is adjacent to the home waters of the western Artmali, so why wouldn't they sail up these coasts and enter the Janube?

22 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Who do you think the Logicians of Fronela would be more likely to be friends with?  The Waertagi or the Veldang?  

That depends on who they were.

I offer:

  1. The Kachasti
  2. The Vadeli who rebelled against the Kachasti
  3. Brithini colonists/exiles at Akem, around Sog City (another volcano overcome by water).

The Vadeli were known to cooperate with/manipulate the Veldang. It all depends which of the three (or possibly more) periods of Logicians we see in the Sweet Sea and Oronin episodes.

We even know that descendants of Brithini exiles and Vadeli cooperated against Hrelar Amali, destroying it. Why shouldn't there have been similar such cooperations against pesky beast coalitions in Fronela?

22 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Yes, YarGan is bad but he is a natural bad like a troll rather than a chaotic.  He even gets turned into a Good Guy, UpelviDedi, which wouldn't happen if he were chaotic.

The UpelviDedi transformation sounds like another Orlanth slays Aroka variant to me, really. Bisos separates pieces out of the interior of his dismembered foe and calls them back to life, and to a duty unrelated to the devouring monster that went before.

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6 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

No, he's a son of Urox / Storm Bull / Bisos... 8-)

I'd take the quoted text with several pinches of salt...

To quote the Vadeli:  that sounds like a bunch of bull ;).....salted bull.

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2 hours ago, Joerg said:
Quote

The Logicians are people from Akem.

Or Kachasti,

That they come from Akem does not preclude them from being Kachasti.  

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

or the Vadeli who rebelled against the Kachasti.

Hardly.  Look at the mythic maps.  The Invasion of the Blue People in Peloria is late Golden Age to the Early Storm Age/Flood.  The Vadeli rebellion against the Kachasti is Middle Storm Age (Guide p688/89).

 

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

The blue enemies. The name is different from the name of the Sweet Sea blues.

Yeah so?  It's like saying the Jorganostelli are not Vingkotlings because they have different names.  That the DediZoraRu breath water like the DediVakaRu makes them Waertagi.  For them to be not Blue People/Waertagi requires them to display powers similar to the Blue Vadeli or the Veldang which is not the case.

 

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

YarGan slew King Oronin and took his crown, rendering himself immortal. This means he is of a different blue faction that Oronin, who appears to be a heir or successor of the Porals, children of Listor.

Again what difference does this make?  I've never argued that the Blue Peoples were a monolithic group. All that I have said is that they were Waertagi.

 

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

Just because the Artmali consorted with Chaos doesn't mean that all of them were chaotic. They were major badasses, and they plundered everywhere.

That's quite a claim which I have difficulty believing.  In any event the Artmali corruption to chaos occurs in the late Storm Age/Lesser Darkness (causing the Firefall) whereas we are talking about the Late Golden Age to early Storm Age/Flood which is something like 5,000 to 10,000 years earlier.   

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

The Neliomi coast is adjacent to the home waters of the western Artmali, so why wouldn't they sail up these coasts and enter the Janube?

Because 1) the "Western Artmali" is not a concept that exists in the sources, 2) Your identification of the Helerings or Banthites as Artmali needs slightly more evidence (other than who else could they be)  3) the sources say the Neliomi is home to the Waertagi, not the Western Artmali.  Yes, it's possible that Artmali from Sechkaul could have appeared in Peloria at the time but their impact would have been minor and not remembered unlike the invasion of the Blue People.

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

I offer: [...] Brithini colonists/exiles at Akem, around Sog City (another volcano overcome by water).

The problem for you here is there is no Brithos at this time.  It does not appear as a distinct place until the Late Storm Age.   At the time of the Blue People invasion, the split between Malkion and Zzabur has not happened.  So Akem is at this time a Kachasti city, allied to the Waertagi.  

 

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

The Vadeli were known to cooperate with/manipulate the Veldang. It all depends which of the three (or possibly more) periods of Logicians we see in the Sweet Sea and Oronin episodes.

What co-operation or manipulation?  All that we know is that Vadeli ruled the land of Chir and had Artmali slaves.  Any relationship between them and Mondator is obscure.

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

We even know that descendants of Brithini exiles and Vadeli cooperated against Hrelar Amali, destroying it. Why shouldn't there have been similar such cooperations against pesky beast coalitions in Fronela?

Because at this time, there weren't any Vadeli in Genertela.  They were in northwestern Pamaltela and didn't move to Genertela in significant populations until their conquest by the Kachasti in the Middle Storm Age.  

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

The UpelviDedi transformation sounds like another Orlanth slays Aroka variant to me, really. Bisos separates pieces out of the interior of his dismembered foe and calls them back to life, and to a duty unrelated to the devouring monster that went before.

And this makes the pieces of YarGan non-chaotic how?

 

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FWIW, I think Peter is mostly right here. We know at least some of the blue people are Waertagi, there is no reason to assume Chaos or Vadeli. There are clearly multiple types of blue people, but the other kinds are either locals either interbreeding or imitating, or underwater beings. And the Waertagi and Kachasti being associated, and the Kachasti being the Logicians makes sense.  

Yes, the Blue Vadeli are blue, even corpse blue like the DediZoraRu, but they aren't connected to water, and there is no other reason to suspect any Vadeli involvement. 

 

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20 minutes ago, davecake said:

FWIW, I think Peter is mostly right here. We know at least some of the blue people are Waertagi, there is no reason to assume Chaos or Vadeli. There are clearly multiple types of blue people, but the other kinds are either locals either interbreeding or imitating, or underwater beings. And the Waertagi and Kachasti being associated, and the Kachasti being the Logicians makes sense.  

I hesitated to have inland Waertagi, otherwise they would have been a lot higher on my list, too. And yes, their presence reduces the need for grandchildren of Lorion a bit.

Underwater cities don't necessarily mean water-breathing inhabitants - the city of Erenplose is encased in a bubble of air, and the Fish Road Interface at Seapolis (credited to the God Learner commander of Segus, the iron fort at the tip of the Rightarm Isles) and the City of Wonders is another such example. Just because most people attempting to enter don't benefit doesn't mean that you have to be aquatic to live down there. Only a very small minority of Waertagi is able to breathe water.

20 minutes ago, davecake said:

Yes, the Blue Vadeli are blue, even corpse blue like the DediZoraRu, but they aren't connected to water, and there is no other reason to suspect any Vadeli involvement.

True, most Vadeli (and all blue-skinned ones) were drowned along with almost all of Danmalastan. Brithos remained, two Vadeli-inhabited archipelagos remained, Jrustela is either a remnant of Danmalastan or the rubble from when the Spike toppled after High King Elf killed it, and Slon is likely to be at least in part a remnant of pre-flood Danmalastan, too.

King Oronin clearly was of the water tribe. However, he was slain by the DediZoraRu, and why should a Waertagi or Kachasti overcome a Waertagi king and replace it with something more evil? This still stinks of Vadeli taking over after their rebellion against the Kachasti.

Tying the events in the Entekosiad into the Orlanthi or Dara Happan sequence is harder than reconciling only Dara Happan and Vingkotling myths. The implosion of Mt. Turos and the creation of Lake Oronin is a pre-flood event, but the YarGan bit is a post-flood event.

 

Peter Metcalfe argues from the mythic maps in the Guide. Checking these maps, they don't show any Artmali activity other than the founding of the camp of innocence. We have plenty of evidence of Artmali activities after that, north of the Pamaltelan mountain chains, as a navy. I would really like to know how Peter plans to locate them in such maps, or potential interim maps showing more than just Pamaltela. For what it's worth, even the people of Mernita may have been (joined by) Veldang who disembarked from their moon before it fell on top of them - isn't it suspicious that of all northern Peloria, only the lands of Mernita remained unaffected by the Great Flood? If their moon had an influence over the tides, it could have directed the standing waves that covered parts of the Rockwoods and most of the Oslir basin around their lands.

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On 29/04/2017 at 7:00 PM, Joerg said:

 

King Oronin clearly was of the water tribe. However, he was slain by the DediZoraRu, and why should a Waertagi or Kachasti overcome a Waertagi king and replace it with something more evil?

 

Ah, but all worlds are filled with such stories of doom. Impatient heirs kill their fathers, distant relatives improve their succession ranking by "removing" family competitors, angry factions foment palace revolutions...

Eternal dynasties never last forever ;-)

Edited by Patrick

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And to further muddle the waters... One of several myths relating to Urox fathering the first bull-headed minotaur, has the mother as Orunatawara (a cow goddess – and note the similarity in name to Tawar).

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