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Characteristics for Mighty Beings


tooley1chris

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Look guys. Throughout the different conversions I've done of the old school Monster Manuals, I've tried to stick with a basic formula converting AD&D critters to Magic World. I've NEVER been happy with the conversion of unique creatures, such as Demon Princes and Devil Dukes. I need some help here.

This is a copy of the original Demogorgon:

5644d60d12aa2_demongorgonoriginal.thumb.

 

And this is my first conversion:

5644d56f35e4a_demongorgonconvert.PNG.d19

Does his Armor and high Dodge make up for the massive HPs in the original? Is it enough?

Do the skills look acceptable for an immortal demon prince?

What would YOU change?

Any input would be GREATLY appreciated!

 

 

 

 

 

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25 minutes ago, auyl said:

Personally the skills look a little low as do the hit points. Others might feel otherwise though.

As far as HPs, even for having a 10 armor? I should crank his CON?

And skills...what would make better numbers? 100% 125% 200%? More? Ive never seen stats for gods...

Edited by tooley1chris

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I would think such a cosmic being should have some better skills, agreed. Unless a being is well known for a weakness of some sort, skills of 100% as a base seem to make sense. At least in things like knowledge but generally everything. That would be my suggestion for a baseline. From there you  differentiate the various beings with skills over 100. 

If you keep the HP low, perhaps such a being is invulnerable except to certain metals or pre cast spells? Cold Iron or something would work. Perhaps some kind of regeneration?

I am assuming Deep Magic is the Psionics equivalent? That could work, but 1st Ed. Psionics was very powerful. 

Would he have to forego attacks to use the Hypnosis effect? I think he might be able to use the tail attack and the Hypnosis effect.

Its 2300hrs, do you know where your super dreadnoughts are?

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Thanks fo your input.  I added deep magic to counter the psionics, yes, as Magic World has no such core mechanics for psychic powers.

Deep Magic is from Advanced Sorcery source book and allows casting about any spell like effect you can imagine without sorcery memorization.

Adding psychic abilities from BRP would work as well but that's not MW specific and I'm sure a lot of people who run campaigns don't use it. 

What about the Characteristics? Should they be higher as well?

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I would say all characteristics would be a min of 18, even appearance to add in that awe affect. So no I do not think it needs changing.

Looking over this and not having seen any others, this is my thought process:

1. Who is supposed to fight this being? Are they supposed to win or have a reasonable chance to win? 

2. I would line the characters and break them down into "Strong" "Healthy" "Dexterous" "Smart" etc... and put them in rough order within their columns. Your most powerful being in each category has an X (+/- 5) In that ability. That way you have a baseline to judge Characteristics.  OR you could break down the various such beings into "Cosmic, Near Cosmic, Potent, and Supermortal" and then figure out the ranges for each.  I think it would be a good way to keep all of them in the same really powerful compared to the rank and file.

Deep magic actually sounds perfect. That would make sense for the Gaze effects. 

Its 2300hrs, do you know where your super dreadnoughts are?

http://reigndragonpressblog.blogspot.com/

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2 hours ago, tooley1chris said:

As far as HPs, even for having a 10 armor? I should crank his CON?

And skills...what would make better numbers? 100% 125% 200%? More? Ive never seen stats for gods...

I was thinking around 50% more hp. Remember its an immortal being around since who knows when. As far as the Armour goes in my experience it either does a lot or not enough. If the characters are strong enough to take on a demon lord than they will probably have a way to deal with armour.

Skill wise I'd max them out around 110-125% there really is no need to go higher.

Weaknesses are a good idea. Gives something the players can investigate and use to overcome him. I'd  make the weakness fairly obscure though and worthy of a quest in itself.

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8 minutes ago, auyl said:

Weaknesses are a good idea. Gives something the players can investigate and use to overcome him. I'd  make the weakness fairly obscure though and worthy of a quest in itself.

Yes I think that is great. Maybe a quest within a quest. You need to get the right head of Demogorgon to unlock the Sun Tomb of Phage Everdying. 

Edited by ReignDragonSMH

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Leaving aside trying to correlate the numbers, IIRC the original conception of Demorgogon as a Demon Prince is as an adversary a high level AD&D party could potentially defeat...which in Magic World terms puts him slightly above an Angel or Greater Demon.

So, in that regard I think your basic numbers are pretty solid. I'd look at giving him some additional powers, derived rules wise from the Greater Demons Aura of Terror and similar to cover the gaze effects of both heads, and each head singly.

will have a proper look at numbers tomorrow after work and see if anything more substantial occurs to me.

cheers,

Nick

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1 hour ago, NickMiddleton said:

Leaving aside trying to correlate the numbers, IIRC the original conception of Demorgogon as a Demon Prince is as an adversary a high level AD&D party could potentially defeat...which in Magic World terms puts him slightly above an Angel or Greater Demon.

As far as Demorgogon go I'd put his stats higher, mych higher than a greater demon. He's a demon prince so can assert authority quite well.

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Chris, 

Do you have Stormbringer Ed5, the game MW mechanics are derived from? If you do, take a look at "Urish's Bane, The Mocker" on page 220. A greater demon, his stats are: STR 22, CON 30, SIZ 23, INT 22, POW 25, DEX 14, MOV 7 and HP 27. None of its abilities or skills are over 80%. It's worth a look for comparison. 

I'm curious...are your intentions to re-create the AD&D experience via BRP or simply to offer GM's options? 

Cheers,

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26 minutes ago, Sunwolfe said:

Chris,

Do you have Stormbringer Ed5 , the game MW mechanics are derived from? If you do, take a look at "Urish's Bane, The Mocker" on page 220. A greater demon, his stats are: STR 22, CON 30, SIZ 23, INT 22, POW 25, DEX 14, MOV 7 and HP 27. None of its abilities or skills are over 80%. It's worth a look for comparison. 

I'm curious...are your intentions to re-create the AD&D experience via BRP or simply to offer GM's options? 

Cheers,

I do not own any of the previous Stormbringer material. MW is my first and only glimpse into the world of yesteryear. I wish I had know about these great systems long ago but...well...Im here now. ;)

Thanks for the reference though. Such Will definetly help in my conversions. I have no intention of recreating AD&D via BRP, and have heard such psychobabble questions in the past concerning some of my stuff. (Hopefully there's no deep rooted, subliminal psychosis on my part! Gygax Revenge! ;) )

My original intent was to supply a wider range of creatures for my own campaign. Something I thought MW was/is lacking. What I had forgotten was that those super powered unique creatures, like Tiamat, were in there right next to orcs. I thought about leaving them out all together and just claiming they are above reproach to mortals, but that seemed kinda lazy and, quite frankly, some of them are so cool. So here I am trying to work out stats to creatures players may/should never come into contact with.

 

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The Stats are fine  except Con we have him at 67,  also,  we increased his inherent armor to 18. Oh, based on our 1st Ed DMG, his strength would be closer to 12. His damage is only a 1d6 and his power or rot, mind control etc makes up for his weak Str.

Also looking at the ultimate Game of horror, CoC, and the fact Demogorgon is kinda a god like Bast,Nodens etc, the other stats are fine, in our opinion,  but skills could be a little higher. Dodge could be higher so he can dodge more than one opponent , and specific skills could be upped. But we try to watch out for the dnd power creep. We also sometimes allow supernatural beings a regeneration roll, sometimes. 

Hope it helps. But as you posted, he is very usable. 

 

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Alright. I'm making some changes based on these suggestions. 

Keeping this in mind:

" Demon Prince is as an adversary a high level AD&D party could potentially defeat... "

But not making it easy or someone else would have already done so.

Gotta crunch some more numbers...

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Mass Hypnosis (1 MP, line of sight, 1d00 affected)

When both of Demogorgon's heads are focused on a group of enemies he can briefly hypnotize them.  For 1 round those effected will do whatever Demogorgon says.  Those under hypnosis will not do anything self destructive.  After the first round anyone effected by the hypnosis has a POW x5% chance to break out of it.  The hypnosis naturally wears off after 6 rounds.

If the target has a POW of 16 or greater they get a POW x5% roll to not be affected by Mass Hypnosis.  The GM rolls a d00 to see how many targets Demogorgon can affect.

Beguile (1 MP, 2 foot radius)

Demogorgon's left head has the power to beguile anyone within 2 feet.  Any intelligent creature will view Demogorgon as a trusted friend for Demogorgon's POW in turns.  A beguiled individual will not act against their beliefs or morals, nor will they act in a manner that will hurt themselves.  The will believe and obey any communication that is reasonable.  Any target receives a Luck roll to avoid Demogorgon's eyes.

Questionable Sanity (1 MP, 2 foot radius)

Demogorgon's right head causes temporary insanity in victims who meet it's gaze.  Those who fail to make a Luck roll to avoid Demogorgon's eyes fall victim to fear and doubt for six rounds.  The target is paralyzed with doubt and is unable to act unless they succeed in an Idea roll.  The target is allowed a POW x5% roll each round to break the ensorcellment.  This effect lasts for Demogorgon's POW in turns.

____________________

 Thought I'd add something like this since it's spelled out in Demogorgon's write up.  It's pretty powerful in keeping people from attacking Mr. Demogorgon.  It's also useful in rallying brief mobs to Monsieur D's side.  These seemed to be free actions for Demogorgon.  I gave them a cost of 1 mp.  You can obviously adjust any of it as you see fit.

 

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  • 5 months later...

Chris, here are just a couple of things you might toy with in arriving at numbers.

First, i see no constraint for confining such beings to a mortal HP = CON+SIZ/2 formula.  Immensely powerful beings like Greater Gods may have HP equal to their combined Attributes. Period.  But for Uniques like Demogorgon, Orcus etc a HP formula of CON+SIZ or even CON+SIZ+POW (or other primary attribute) would be well withing imagining.

For STR, Demogorgon does not need to be strong by the standards of his peers, but i certainly wouldn't put his STR attribute less than half his SIZ.  I would probably use his rival Prince, Orcus as a measuring gauge.  Orcus is notoriously strong, like 24 in AD&D terms (+12 dam, +6 hit), or as strong as a Storm Giant.  This gives you a good range to work.   In Magic World terms, i don't know where a Storm Giant ranks strength wise, but you have already worked through that in your Monster book compilations.

My thought is that Orcus would have a combined STR+SIZ in the 73-88 range, & at least a 4d6 damage bonus.  Demogorgon on the other hand is not as physically invested as Orcus, but is still going to have a combined STR+ SIZ in the 57-72 range, which is where you have placed him. Personally i would probably place Demogorgon at 30 or 35 SIZ tops, and 20 or 25 STR.  

In AD&D terms, Demogorgon probably would have an Intelligence of 19-20, but keep in mind the Attribute curve of 3-18 in AD&D was a tighter fixture than it is in MW, so his INT can be however high you can effectively reflect in his associated abilities.  INT & POW are both probably about where they should be, though i think you could get away with as low as 24 INT if you wanted.

I think you are within a very reasonable construct of Demogorgon here, not too much different than how i would present him.  Beings like this are forgiving in how they are presented, because the specific numbers change from incarnation to incarnation & encounter to encounter, depending on the context of the situation. Creatures like Demogorgon are never truly vanquished, and so that cosmic quirk gives you a lot of license in packaging them up for prime time!

The most important thing i wish to emphasize is what i said first.  Don't feel bound by following the humanoid strictures for determining a Uniques derived attributes. It does not have to follow the same rules for HP, Damage bonus, Magic Points etc as mortals.  Similar mechanic options are already in place for heroic adventurers, & so why wouldn't Uniques access such mechanic advantage even more easily? ;) 

 

Edited by Goblintrain
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  • 2 weeks later...

Also worth considering is just how literal you want to be.

For example, the picture shows two heads and tentacles in place of arms, and the stat-block says "Size L 18' tall" -- but I think the physique shows body-mass will be relatively comparable to a human built on "18' tall" scale.  Being away from my books, I need to ask how that compares to the "SIZ 40" you gave him -- and further ask, DOES THAT MATTER?  Do you want that-literal a conversion?

I'd probably up his HP with higher CON, and maybe (as others have suggested) add in POW and/or other characteristics, or just flat game-design fiat.

I'd probably increase the armor.  Given his stat-block AC = -8, he approaches the "-10" apex of the original scale.  As it happens, I just skimmed over the old RQ2 "Borderlands" material and noted a mere Dream-Dragon there (heh: "mere") had Armor ranging from 8-pt to 18-pt, and a lair specifically set up so he could back his "tender" flanks into a passageway and leave only the tough forequarters available to hit...  Granted, I don't think the PC's were meant to kill Krang, it's still an indication of how hard it should be to land a meaningful, HP-inflicting blow.

As an aside... has any Gloranthan publication ever assigned stats/etc to Cacodemon?

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On 5/12/2016 at 8:19 PM, g33k said:

As an aside... has any Gloranthan publication ever assigned stats/etc to Cacodemon?

 

RQ3 Elder Secrets - He's big, he's tough, he's surrounded by 1D100 Fiends and he lasted under 3 rounds in combat with both high-level PC Parties in the campaigns I have run.

 

 

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