Holy Country maunderings - Caladraland

[Jeff]

49 minutes ago, Joerg said:

 

Typical Gloranthan country names end on -ela after the stem of a land goddess (Seshna, Frona, Ketha, Jrusta) or a ruling god (Genert, Pamalt, Vith, Wenel), -ia or -os after the stem of a land goddess (Esrola, Pelora, Manira(?), Ramala, Ralia, Teshna, Slonta, Vrala, Azila?, Sentana?). There are only a few -land countries, Heortland and Caladraland in Kethaela, Corolaland in Ralios, Rindland in Seshnela. Heortland is the land of the Heortlings. I would think that Caladraland would be the land of the Caladrings. There is no indication that Caladra is regarded as a land goddess.

They were called the Caldrians or Caladrings at the Dawn. 

 

[Runeblogger]

9 hours ago, Jeff said:

Very approximate cult breakdown (of adult population) [note Porthomeka not included]:

Caladra & Aurelion 30%

Lodril (Veskarthan) 15%

Some time ago, I read somewhere that after the collapse of the Middle Sea Empire the godlearnerish cult of Caladra & Aurelion began to loose importance, as it was no longer strongly supported by the rulers, and instead the old Veskarthan cult raised again as the most widespread cult. I think it makes sense.

[Jeff]

Veskarthan is the most important cult in Caladraland, but I think more people worship Veskarthan through C&A rather than directly.

[Mark Mohrfield]

Are Veskarthan's runes the same as Lodril's (Life, Fire and Disorder according to the Guide) or did the God Learners flub this one?:)

Edited November 20, 2015 by Mark Mohrfield
spelling correction

[jajagappa]

Veskarthan's runes are Fire, Life, and Disorder.

[Jeff]

5 hours ago, Mark Mohrfield said:

Are Veskarthan's runes the same as Lodril's (Life, Fire and Disorder according to the Guide) or did the God Learners flub this one?:)

The God Learners were quite right about Veskarthan being Lodril. So much so that educated Kethaelans in Esrolia and Heortland are likely to call him Lodril or Lodril of the Vent (just as educated Syrians called the Teshub of Doliche "Jupiter Dolichenus") to show off their erudition.

[metcalph]

My thinking on Caladra and Aurelion's magics.

Most people initiate to either Caladra (Lava) or Aurelion (Oil & Coal).  I'll leave aside the question of whether Aurelion's magics stem from the earth rune or the fire rune as his magic can be distinguished from Caladra's through the use of "an incomplete list of what Aurelion's initiates use his magic for".  By themselves, they are one rune cults.

Magics of the Harmony Rune can only be cast when an initiate of Caladra is paired with an initiate of Aurelion.  These are spells inherited from the God Learners

I think (contra the original cult-writeup) the pairing of initiates is the equivalent to marriage rather than a twin soul-mate.  An Caladran can marry/pair with an Aurelionite regardless of sex but a Caladran cannot marry another Caladran and so on for Aurelion.

I'm not so worried about the Fire in the Earth kerfuffle as as it sounds very Dara Happan.  Given that the people of Caladraland were supporters of Palangio, I would be very surprised if they didn't have some Dara Happan influences.

 

[Mankcam]

There's that culture-bleed influence again,  I think it's one of the things that makes Glorantha feel so authentic at times 

Edited November 20, 2015 by Mankcam

[soltakss]

On 11/19/2015, 6:30:28, Martin said:

I just feel to me it feels more comfy to have caladra as an Earth goddess...after all caladraland is named after her

I know we have exceptions like Heortland or Pamaltela but on the whole lands are named after earth deities so it just makes sense to me...

Esrolia is named after Esrola, who is the wife of Lodril in Caladraland, so it might be part of her domain.

Most lands named after earth goddesses end is "ia", so Caladraland wouldn't be named after its land goddess.

 

[M Helsdon]

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

Most lands named after earth goddesses end is "ia", so Caladraland wouldn't be named after its land goddess.

There's no such tight rule: consider: Fonrit and Ernamola; Fronela and Frona; Jolar and Nomiama, Kothar and Sedaia; Kralorela and Krala; Maniria and Esrola; Ralios and Ralia; Seshnela and Seshna; Tarien and Curu; Vralos and Vrala; Zamokil and Mwara. And I suspect Brolia isn't named for a goddess.

[Joerg]

As I explored earlier, land goddesses are using the stem of the land goddess' name and -ia, -os or -ela. Those Pamaltelan "grain goddesses" whose names are totally different from the associated lands aren't really grain goddesses, but a God Learner attempt to make local plant goddesses fill the role they knew from Genertela. Vrala may be the notable exception.

I don't think that Esrola qualifies as land goddess for Slontos, Wenelia or Maniria. Grain goddess, maybe, but those regions each have their own sovereignty goddess different from Esrola.

The regions named -land appear to be named after peoples rather than goddesses - Heortlings, Caladrians/Caladrings. (Rindland probably doesn't have a goddess "Rind", but might have been the land of the Rindings, possibly named after some glorious leader. Corolaland is mostly uninhabited now, but might have seen more human habitation during the Autarchy. The Orlanthi kingdoms of Dragon Pass and Peloria aren't named after any goddesses, with the possible exception of Holay. In the case of Tarsh, I haven't got the slightest idea how that name came about. It starts out as "Arim's Kingdom" or "Shakelands". Neither is there any consistent systematic in the naming of the Pelorian satrapies and many of the other subdivisions (such as Henjarl, Esvuthil, Mastina), except for a few -ia instances like Naveria and Dikoria.

[soltakss]

3 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

There's no such tight rule: consider: Fonrit and Ernamola; Fronela and Frona; Jolar and Nomiama, Kothar and Sedaia; Kralorela and Krala; Maniria and Esrola; Ralios and Ralia; Seshnela and Seshna; Tarien and Curu; Vralos and Vrala; Zamokil and Mwara. And I suspect Brolia isn't named for a goddess.

yeah, but apart from those, the principle holds! 

[M Helsdon]

23 hours ago, Joerg said:

I don't think that Esrola qualifies as land goddess for Slontos, Wenelia or Maniria. Grain goddess, maybe, but those regions each have their own sovereignty goddess different from Esrola.

The Grain Goddesses are the Queens of the Land, the land goddesses. The Esrolians consider Esrola the Mother of the Grain Goddesses.

[Joerg]

On 11/22/2015 at 11:16 PM, M Helsdon said:

The Grain Goddesses are the Queens of the Land, the land goddesses. The Esrolians consider Esrola the Mother of the Grain Goddesses.

That's the God Learner doctrine.

Esrolia clearly has a different sovereignty goddess (Orendana) than the various grain goddesses (Esra, Pela etc).

I am convinced that there is a Slonta, and I am quite sure she had a "grain" connection up to the God Learner era, though I don't know if that still is the case, or what grain that might have been. Dragon Pass doesn't seem to have a grain goddess, but has Kero Fin as sovereignty goddess, or her lesser avatars (Velhara, Sorana Tor, FHQs).

In Seshnela, we have Seshna as the sovereignty goddess to be married by the king (Froalar) only after Hrestol slew Likita Ifttala, her daughter, the mother of Pendal.

Don't even try to start in Peloria. Pelora, the goddess of maize. No, wheat. No, rice (three varieties). With Surensliba, Biselenslib, Eses, Naveria as the sovereignty goddesses of the lands.

Find me a cookie cutter example free of God Learner simplification, please. Then I will accept that as a single case for this quoted statement.

Edited August 11, 2019 by Joerg

[Jeff]

9 hours ago, Joerg said:

That's the God Learner doctrine.

Esrolia clearly has a different sovereignty goddess (Orendana) than the various grain goddesses (Esra, Pela etc).

I am convinced that there is a Slonta, and I am quite sure she had a "grain" connection up to the God Learner era, though I don't know if that still is the case, or what grain that might have been. Dragon Pass doesn't seem to have a grain goddess, but has Kero Fin as sovereignty goddess, or her lesser avatars (Velhara, Sorana Tor, FHQs).

In Seshnela, we have Seshna as the sovereignty goddess to be married by the king (Froalar) only after Hrestol slew Likita, her daughter, the mother of Pendal.

Don't even try to start in Peloria. Pelora, the goddess of maize. No, wheat. No, rice (three varieties). With Surensliba, Biselenslib, Eses, Naveria as the sovereignty goddesses of the lands.

Find me a cookie cutter example free of God Learner simplification, please. Then I will accept that as a single case for this quoted statement.

Orendana is not the sovereignty goddess of Esrolia (in the sense of being a goddess that represents the country and needs to be wooed or otherwise joined in order to secure peace and prosperity). That would be Esrola.

[M Helsdon]

9 hours ago, Joerg said:

Find me a cookie cutter example free of God Learner simplification, please. Then I will accept that as a single case for this quoted statement.

My sources were: Glorantha.com, AH Gods of Glorantha, Esrolia: The Land of Ten Thousand Goddesses.

[Jeff]

1 hour ago, M Helsdon said:

My sources were: Glorantha.com, AH Gods of Glorantha, Esrolia: The Land of Ten Thousand Goddesses.

You could have added the draft and unpublished Prosopaedia (or the Sourcebook), which says:

-----------

Land Goddesses

Nearly Universal - queens of the land

Each region of the world has its own special grain or land goddess. All are similar and each has given birth to her own special grain.

 They are illustrated as young women clutching bundles of their sacred grasses. Alternatively, they are pictured as just a specimen of the ripe plant.

------------

The truth is the God Learners were right far more often than not, and many of their conclusions have been embraced even by the Old Way Traditionalists.

[Joerg]

Somehow I don't see Seshna Likita as a young woman clutching bundles of rye, but as a woman in prime mother age clutching serpents, wearing a crown, flanked by lions. Thoughts of rye come very, very late, a lesser aspect.

Likewise I am not sure how to deal with the Green Lady of Ralios, another serpent-entwined goddess of the land, alternatively known as Ralia or Ernalda. Imagery similar to Seshna Likita, with horses replacing the lions.

I don't find any grain connection at all for Kero Fin, and all the grains (and beasts) for Esrola.

IMO these land goddesses often enough are aspects of deeper female cults, which may send other avatars for the sovereignty of the land. On a clan chief level I think that the grain goddess will suffice, on a tribal federation level I don't. (The Theyalan model is the only one which counts here as it is the blueprint for any theist worship of the land goddesses, studied and simplified by the God Learners and carried to Pamaltela outside of Umathela (where the Theyalans were anyway).

Given the Malkioni reluctance to let women become sorceresses, I think the God Learners may have been somewhat less well informed about earth cults than they were about the "interesting" ones taking active roles. The Goddess Switch probably had some involvement of female God Learners, but I have the impression that the twins of Caladra and Aurelion fame saw one of the most outstanding female God Learners in history.

The resulting knowledge-light grain goddess sovereignty power probably served them and their theist subjects well enough when they restricted themselves to the local variety. Ongoing theist-tinted worship of Jrusta (or whichever fertility goddess the Olodo had contacted) was part of their great success on Jrustela, allowing rapid growth. I don't think that the God Learners ever delved into the secrets of the Serpent Kings - their Seshnelan engagement was as monotheist crusaders against the then still dominant Stygian school of Malkionism which shared elements with the Serpent King combination of theist worship of the land goddess and Malkionism. The Serpent King ways were abolished when the lineage died out and no new lineage was put forward (the dynasty had something like a reboot with Aignor the Trader doing a repeat of Froalar's marriage with the Earth with a lesser avatar from the east, IIRC). The remnants of the cult of Seshna were too insignificant and hidden to gain deeper secrets there.#

Ralios wasn't a fruitful study object, either - the local earth cult sided with the Autarchy, and may still have some of the best Arkati protection against invasive heroquesting there is on Glorantha.

Slontos however gave them Theyalan subjects actively practicing their earth worship, and no strong Autarchy intervention. This is where the God Learners studied the land goddesses, and where they decided to initiate the Goddess Switch. While they were active in Esrolia, the earth secrets there were way too deep to penetrate, especially by male-led researchers. They concentrated on secondary knowledge collected by the Lhankor Mhytes there.

So: grain goddesses can convey a certain degree of sovereignty over the land of the rulers, but IMO not beyond small tribal level. A tribal confederation needs something deeper.

Grain goddesses are a good way to get fertility magic that ensures a certain wealth and security. They are useful. They don't give any deeper secrets if approached as young women holding bundles of grain or as the grain plant itself. They are a safe approach, but a shallow one.

The Goddess Switch showed that the grain goddesses rely on deeper roots than the ones the God Learners understood and managed to transplant. These aren't part of the grain goddess cults or their limited sovereignty rites. Due to other problems like the Closing and the war against the EWF and the Old Day Traditionalists, the GLs failed to research or understand these deeper roots.

 

I don't see much evidence for Heortling worship of land goddesses, but a lot for worship of Esrola in her various aspects. Orlanthi elsewhere may differ. Heortlings wed Esrola or Maran for fertility, but Kero Fin for sovereignty, going for the bedrock rather than the soil. In Esrolia, the Adjusted Heortlings apparently settled for Orendana queens that were married by their warrior kings - lesser queens of lesser cities mainly, except for Finelvanth who experienced a replay of the Sword and Helm Saga. Non-adjusted Esrolians go the Grandmother way.

[Joerg]

2 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

My sources were: Glorantha.com, AH Gods of Glorantha, Esrolia: The Land of Ten Thousand Goddesses.

I didn't question your use of sources, but the simplified picture there. Grain goddesses probably are as much Earth secrets as most males will be able to comply to. It seems to take exceptional qualities for prospective rulers/dynasty founders in order to contact the deeper sovereignty secrets. Those of the grain goddess cults don't appear to run much deeper than the plow shares.

[soltakss]

Genert and Gata got it on quite often, producing the Land Goddesses, who are specialised versions of the earth. In fact, they cover the earth, being the Surface Earth.

I don't think that they are all Grain Goddesses and not all Grain Goddess are also Land Goddesses, but they quite often tally.

Pelora was the goddess of barley, wasn't she? It's been a while since I checked. Hon Eel is the Grain Goddess for Maize, but she isn't a Land Goddess.

Seshna is an interesting one, as she has had a lot of influence from the Kingdom of Logic and subsequent Malkioni, but she is definitely a Land Goddess in my Glorantha. 

[M Helsdon]

6 hours ago, Jeff said:

You could have added the draft and unpublished Prosopaedia (or the Sourcebook), which says:

I'd have been accused of God Learnerism...

[hkokko]

Wonderful thread.

 

Even though I am not a deep in myth studies I find Joerg's view of there being different kind of 'grain'/'land' goddesses tempting. Even if they are sisters of sort - not all sisters are alike. Seshna Likita and the Green Lady of Ralios sound good interpretations and they make the life interesting for myth tellers and world travellers - little bit of something that is same in the background but still different.

[M Helsdon]

On ‎11‎/‎24‎/‎2015‎ ‎6‎:‎32‎:‎48‎, hkokko said:

Seshna Likita and the Green Lady of Ralios sound good interpretations and they make the life interesting for myth tellers and world travellers - little bit of something that is same in the background but still different.

The various Earth deities may or may not be similar, but what is dissimilar is the cultural lens they are viewed through. The different regions of Glorantha vary enormously in history, outlook and political organization, and this will have a major influence.