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Iskallor

Genert's sons

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I don't think gods become chaotic after encountering chaos. I think they have to actively go over to chaos and embrace it. Gods that encounter chaos get wounds that don't heal or cripple them (eg Larnst), die and are no more (as in gone forever even in name), or are mostly destroyed but some part still lingers on so we know their names (eg Genert, Tada, Seolinthur).

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Genert was the first of a type of earth giant, but not necessarily the first giant - those ancients mentioned in the Annilla cult possibly predate the Green Age. From the looks of it, Genert and the various giants of the Eastern Rockwoods and further east or west were on friendly terms.

I do think that Pocharngo could cause horrible mutations on gods and comparable entities, too. However, gods being able to multilocation, multiform etc., they might be able to amputate that chaotic mutation, and possibly destroy it - remaining mutilated. When they did not manage to destroy the tainted thing, we get a chaos monstrosity. Where they didn't manage to sever all chaotic taint, the cancer would grow on.

There may have been gods etc. like Vivamort who were given the choice to perish or to arrange themselves with their chaotic nature. This will have led to chaotic deities of the elements etc., entities like Urain.

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I'm wary of Genert being an Earth giant. Primal Earth god yes, but giant only in he was physically big. The whole giant thing is a bit too much of a norse mythology crossover. Physically big as in the whole continent, the part we are referring to is the conscious god part, not the physical size. Clearly when he dies, the continent remains, devolved/evolved into his daughters and sons - the land goddesses - apart from the Wastelands which is his core being. Following this line of though the mountains are part of his body, so the true giants are his are his children.

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I think that there is plenty of mileage in exploiting the conflation of the different types of giants as an in-Glorantha story element. Many of the stories of the different kinds of giants originate among peoples that speak different languages. Why shouldn't there be mis-translations and mis-understandings?

Never mind deliberate muddying of the waters by powerful foreigners that misrepresent the stories that they tell to push forward their agendas.

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5 hours ago, David Scott said:

I'm wary of Genert being an Earth giant. Primal Earth god yes, but giant only in he was physically big. The whole giant thing is a bit too much of a norse mythology crossover. Physically big as in the whole continent, the part we are referring to is the conscious god part, not the physical size. Clearly when he dies, the continent remains, devolved/evolved into his daughters and sons - the land goddesses - apart from the Wastelands which is his core being. Following this line of though the mountains are part of his body, so the true giants are his are his children.

That logic makes the dragons who form entire mountain ranges or that leave deep valleys when they take off children of Genert as well. IMO the Elder Giants aren't much different from dragons in taking their environment in to form huge bodies. This is similar to the Black Eater taking in the troll armies at the Battle of Night and Day to form its body. And, in case of the Elder Giants, we know what happens when parts of the body are ripped off - go visit the Thogsarm Hills north of Pavis. (Has anyone ever tried mining these hills for the bones that might be found there?)

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The term "giant" applies to actually a very wide range of beings with very different genealogies. In truth, it is about as precise a term as "deity" or "demon". Any really big largely-humanoid entity can be (and is) called a "giant". I really would advise against using the term "giant" to try to make careful classifications.

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1 hour ago, Jeff said:

The term "giant" applies to actually a very wide range of beings with very different genealogies. In truth, it is about as precise a term as "deity" or "demon". Any really big largely-humanoid entity can be (and is) called a "giant". I really would advise against using the term "giant" to try to make careful classifications.

I wonder whether "humanoid" is a binding qualifier - I think that there are (or at least were) giants who weren't limited to the humanoid shape. And that's not just mountains that may or may not be kneeling or sitting humanoids covered with debris.

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On 11/20/2015, 12:40:15, Iskallor said:

Did some become chaotic after Earthfall?

In my Glorantha, yes. 

 

Genert's daughters are the land goddesses, but Genert's sons are not really described at all. Are they just manifestations of his power (Earth King, Giant, Father of Many) or are they just demigods?

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As for Bubar, not much is said of him anywhere except the book of heortling mythology. So to backfill, he's going to be one of Generts tribe, and so likely a son. GtG p452 gives the Ginmuz Mountains: The four peaks here are called the Sons of Genert and have no names. Presumably lost to chaos, the peaks could be their earthly remains.

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On ‎11‎/‎20‎/‎2015‎ ‎1‎:‎56‎:‎00‎, jajagappa said:

I would guess that Gerendetho of Kostaddi is one of his sons, though I don't think there is anything that states Gerendetho's parentage.

Gerendetho may be a local name for Genert?

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Gerendetho may be a local name for Genert?

I often considered that, but I'm inclined to think not because otherwise there should be myths of Gerendetho having been killed, destroyed, torn apart, etc. whereas he appears to be the 'living' father of the goats/Zarkosites.

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Gerendetho appears to be a (not) missing link for Earthwalkers between Genert and Turos/ViSaruDaran/Lodril, the volcanic/fiery squareheads of Peloria. I don't quite see him as a volcanic deity, but he appears to be a mountain giant, which can have some Fire-in-Earth connections.

The older the giants get, the less pronounced the elemental affiliation may become.

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I did some development work on the sables of the hungry plateau when I was working on the Praxian sables. I'll look it up and post the gerendetho link. 

Edited by David Scott
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Gerendetho and the Hungry Plateau Sables

Whilst working on the Prax book I had cause to look at the Sable tribe that would eventually reconnect with their cousins in the Wastes.  As the two sable nations separated in the first age, the Hungry Plateau sables  must have adapted their religion to survive in a new location, far from their Praxian sources (600 miles not as the crow flies). 

The newly arrived sables from Prax would have had the same spirit societies as those currently found in Prax. In their new environment far from Prax, they would have to evolve. The main issues being with two of their primary 

spirit societies:

Waha - Mythical actions in a distant land. Only shamans now have contact with Waha (normally initiates and spirit-talkers as well).

Eiritha - Mythical actions in a distant land. Only shaman-priestesses now have contact with Eiritha (normally initiates and spirit-talkers as well).

Changes to the Praxian tradition

 

   Tradition renamed to The Hungry Plateau tradition to reflect differences.

   New male spirit needed to supplement/replace Waha in new land. Candidate: Gerendetho. "Kostaddi: Two thirds of the satrapy's territory is rich farmland, while the rest is the tall foreboding Hungry Plateau. This was the home of the Earth God Gerendetho, who once quarrelled with the giants who lived in a big palatial hill made of granite. During the fight, Gerendetho sheared off the whole top of the hill and the ruins of palace is now called the Hungry Plateau. Gerendetho shoved all the rest of the rock to the side, and that big pile is now called the Jord Mountains." Gerendetho fulfills the role of dead Genert who would be his father - a "coming home" for any Praxian. For this to work, he has the runes of (death) and (earth). Waha defers to him in this land.

   New female spirit needed to supplement/replace Eiritha in new land. Candidate: Pelora: "Genert and Gata were children of the Primal Earth, and formed two corners of the Earth Rune. Genert fathered many goddesses upon his sister, and they are the land goddesses found everywhere. They gave their names to the regions of Genertela. Hence Ralia is the goddess of Ralios, Frona is the goddess of Fronela, and so forth. In Peloria, the daughter of Genert and Gata was called Pela or Pelora." Pelora is the land goddess here, she is a sister-wife to Gerendetho. For this to work, she has the runes of (life) and (earth). She is not a grain goddess in this form. Eiritha defers to her in this land.

New Primary spirit society

The Earth Guardians - Pelora (earth)(life) and Gerendetho (earth)(death). Accepts both men and women. Has a shaman path.

(I wrote a lot more but it's the basis of an article so I won't let it all out).

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Gerendetho (earth)(death)

While I certainly see the earth rune, I don't see Gerendetho having the death rune. 

In the Guide we get: (p.676) "the Raiser of Hills, the Father of Mountains, the Long Runner, the Father of Kostaddi, the Spear Shaper, and the Old Hunter."

Lots of 'father' aspects as well as 'spear shaper' suggesting Life or Earth.  Maybe 'Old Hunter', but while I can see working to a Waha equivalence, I'm not sure it's required.

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The closest rune that I can see for Genert's Rune would be the Power Rune (ie the one that Pamalt has) which is close to the spear that Gerendetho prominently bears on the Gods Wall.  Turos who is somewhat similar is given the Man Rune in Pavis: Gateway to Adventure.

 

 

 

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 What function of Waha exactly does Gerendetho replace, and what functions still remain with Waha? If Gerendetho doesn't have the death/Covenant/butchery connections, then he takes over the caretaker of the land role. "Waha saves his sisters" doesn't mean much in Kostaddi, but Gerendetho's relation to the land does a lot. The Paps are a mythical place in a faraway land. The Kostaddi Sable people probably have another earth temple as their magical source of fertility, tied to Gerendetho and the local land goddess.

(IMO not Pelora, but her Kostaddic daughter - more specific, less applicable outside of the territory.)

5 hours ago, metcalph said:

The closest rune that I can see for Genert's Rune would be the Power Rune (ie the one that Pamalt has) which is close to the spear that Gerendetho prominently bears on the Gods Wall.

I wouldn't transplant that rune from Pamaltela - it has its very own meaning in the myths of Pamalt, which don't apply to the Earth Walkers north of the Rockwoods IMO.

Genner is repeatedly mentioned among the Erasanchula in the Zzaburite texts. He would have been known by his own rune among the Jrusteli mythographers - probably that of Theism since that was the realm he ruled (even though he was firmly said to be a Great Spirit in that era of Gloranthan scholarship).

5 hours ago, metcalph said:

 Turos who is somewhat similar is given the Man Rune in Pavis: Gateway to Adventure.

 Sounds like a parallel to Calyz. A bit closer to the Lodril end of the spectrum rather than the Genert end.

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1 hour ago, Joerg said:

 

 What function of Waha exactly does Gerendetho replace, and what functions still remain with Waha? If Gerendetho doesn't have the death/Covenant/butchery connections, then he takes over the caretaker of the land role. "Waha saves his sisters" doesn't mean much in Kostaddi, but Gerendetho's relation to the land does a lot. The Paps are a mythical place in a faraway land. The Kostaddi Sable people probably have another earth temple as their magical source of fertility, tied to Gerendetho and the local land goddess.

According to the RQ3 writeup of Waha (Tales #15), he is revered in Peloria and Fronela as a God of Butchers and Slaughterhouses (to wit, the Peaceful Cut).  

I don't see the need to invoke Gerendetho as caretaker of the Land among the Hungry Sable since Waha isn't a caretaker of the land by any definition.  Moreover since the Hungry Sables are nomadic, Gerendetho would be a men's god more than anything else.

I'm somewhat mystified by Gerendetho's main claim to mythic fame, the creation of the Hungry Plateau.  It seems an overly colossal bit of civil engineering for rather a petty dispute.  My guess is that the people of mythical kostaddi had some compulsion to level the mountains of the Plateau and plave their waste in what is now Jord.  Instead of one great mythic action, it was a longterm cultural effort which may be related to the city of Senthoros.

The best idea that I can come up with is that since the Sky and the Earth were seperated, Gerendetho decided to recreate the good old days by creating a new land closer to the Sky.  The Granite Men did not like this for obvious reasons but since the Gods War rendered the Hungry Plateau worthless, the feud with Granite Man is all that anybody can remember.

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Both the Hungry Plateau and the Shadow Plateau were made by a spear-wielding god decapitating a mountain. It isn't known where the top of the Shadow Plateau went, though.

In case of the Shadow Plateau, it was Veskarthen struggling to escape his bonds, and Argan Argar keeping him in those, forcing him to build the Obsidian Palace. (From the debris?)

Gerendetho smashed an inhabited palace. As a walker, he wouldn't have had use for a permanent housing. Maybe this is an ancient struggle between nomadic ways and sedentary ones, at first going against the sedentary life (of Turos/Lodril). If that was the case, the choice of Gerendetho as a patron to maintain a nomadic way of life would be a very necessary role for the Sable tribe of Kostaddi. The creation of the Jord mountains probably was incidental.

(There is one more myth in which the ruins of a smashed mountain were pushed aside to form a new chain of mountains - the ruins of the Spike pulled onto Jrustela by the Magnetic Mountain.)

I don't see any evidence for the former mountain that became the Hungry Plateau having been quarried.

Close to where I live, a single rock pierced the glacial deposits at Bad Segeberg, and on top of it a castle had been built - the Siegesburg.

csm_altsegeberg_neu_15a06dbdbc.jpg

The castle was destroyed in the 30 Years War, and subsequently the rock (gypsum) was quarried for stuccato works all over the baroque northern Germany. The activity left only a stump of the rock just slightly above the roof line of the upper houses on that picture (and a hole that now is used as an amphitheater).

All of this was done on a much smaller scale, but the point is that the material was used for building efforts. I don't recognise any such in Jord, and I don't think that the Krarshtkids are at fault there. All that we see in Jord is a jumble of rock that used to be the top of the Hungry Plateau.

This is different from the giant slabs of stone that make up Sambari Pass between the Quivin Mountains and the Storm Mountains - here we had a giant building a wall to connect the two mountain ranges. No such effort is seen between Kostaddi and Imther.

If we want to see the Jord Mountains as a defensive bulwark, against whom? Does it protect the goat herders of Jarst and Garsting against the Alkothi?

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13 hours ago, metcalph said:

The closest rune that I can see for Genert's Rune would be the Power Rune (ie the one that Pamalt has) which is close to the spear that Gerendetho prominently bears on the Gods Wall.  

That's not a spear! ;)

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5 hours ago, metcalph said:

I'm somewhat mystified by Gerendetho's main claim to mythic fame, the creation of the Hungry Plateau.  It seems an overly colossal bit of civil engineering for rather a petty dispute.  My guess is that the people of mythical kostaddi had some compulsion to level the mountains of the Plateau and plave their waste in what is now Jord.  Instead of one great mythic action, it was a longterm cultural effort which may be related to the city of Senthoros.

I don't know, giants are not known for being reasonable and I can see a dispute between a bunch of giants and a son of Genert going that way very quickly.

Argan Argar cut the top of a mountain off to make the base for the Castle of Black Glass, so it has happened more than once.

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