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Iskallor

Prax and the thousand questions about the place.

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Much to agree with and the usual minor quibbles with Peter's post:

2 hours ago, metcalph said:

If Sheng managed to break the Closing before Dormal, I'm not too worried about them being able to sidestep the seal.

My impression was that he didn't - his fleet used a lucky lull in the Closing, possibly extended by his mystics, but in the end the Closing caught up when they got within sight of Vormain (or, as likely, some of the Hinter islands).

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

While the Rubble might be a treasure trove of draconic magic, Sheng had first hand experience with the real Kralorelan deal, so there wasn't much new to be learned from a failed experiment. The Dara Happan and Lunar knowledge may have been a lot more useful and fascinating to him.

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That assumes that Sheng knows what is in the Rubble before he decides whether or not to plunder it.  Which is unlikely even for an all-powerful demigod.  FWIW I don't believe that Sheng went to Prax but kind of like to see a more entertaining reason than it was not worth his while to plunder.

He got all manner of entertainment from his conquests in Dara Happa and his occasional struggles with Takenegi or Hon-eel. His small leap for a star but giant leap for mankind onto the moon which left the two big scars comes to mind.

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Perhaps the pieces that are falling off were caused by Sheng's Visit and the reason why the Storm Bullies are so crazed about anybody trying to steal them is because they have bad memories about the visit.

There is a good chance that they have bad memories from earlier visitors, too, e.g. Palangio, the EWF, or the Jrusteli.

2 hours ago, metcalph said:

If Sheng managed to break the Closing before Dormal, I'm not too worried about them being able to sidestep the seal.  My chief qualm is that it it is something that would be remembered.  What I'm leaning towards is making the mysterious settlement of Iffinbix a Celestial Empire intrusion.

[...]

IMO at first most worshippers of Jolaty would be simple worshippers and initiates.  I don't think Praxian followers of the more austere path would be particularly common until much later.

I doubt that simple worshippers and initiates would have been able to sidestep the seal, but your idea of linking the destruction of the Iiffinbix settlement around 1400 to Selerians might very well work.

But then, never underestimate the uz. It would be weird if they had centuries to advance upon the resisting human strongholds and never took down any, unless they used them like somewhat prickly herds to fill their bellies after training their braves.

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@Joerg & @metcalph provide some excellent speculation on the Sheng's empire and the Wastes:

Selenteen, the Guide says:

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but established a colony at the mouth of the Zola Fel that lasted several generations before disappearing, the likely victim of the Animal Nomads of the Wastes. 

So established in 1250, but not on the 1450 map. Could have been incorporated into the empire, but I don't think it was. The Praxian empire dates were 1361 to 1460, several generations = 20-25 x 7ish = 140-175ish years + 1250 = 1390-1425ish - the likely victim of the Animal Nomads of the Wastes.

Iiffinbix - my understanding is that this was inside the Walls and survived the trolls up to 1400

I don't think Sheng ever went to Prax. I think he just needed mercenaries to fight and the Praxians always fill that role. Looking at the original maps used for the historical maps, you see that although the Praxians swore allegiance to sheng, it was likely only those who were in direct contact with the northern and Kralorelan boarders. Actual Prax itself was untouched. I suspect that one of Sheng's officers visited the Paps as a token show, but Pavis is still shown as sealed on the map. This also explains how Sun County was uninvolved.

Screen Shot 2017-03-20 at 11.12.50.png

This leaves those in Prax to fight against Sheng via Tarsh. 

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On 3/17/2017 at 10:47 AM, Joerg said:

What I am still mostly unclear about is the difference between the Wastelands north and south of the Snowline.

I agree the main reason Pent is more fertile is just that it was outside the Genert blast radius.  It's not a place where Chaos won.  It's not, because it's not.  I mean, supposedly Kajabor was running around Fronela or somewhere, but that didn't turn into a wasteland either.  Maybe some of the land north of Fronela or under the White Sea did.

Glaciers might have protected some of Pent.

And there are hints about the ignorance sun god protecting it.  There's the glory of the Black Sun, and references to blood rain in eastern myths, and in the dark age map in Book of Heortling Mythology, there's a "Bloodrain" symbol in Pent with a blurb about sacrificing to demons.  So you can imagine blood rain provided fertility and propitiated the chaos armies, ushering them south, while the black sun aspect showed them the hand when they turned east.  Then Kargzant took over in the silver age.

And elf forests, too.

Ernalda, personally I'm not really compelled to put her in Pent.  For one thing Book of Heortling Mythology shows Genert's Garden extending way north, for what that's worth.  Also the GtG characterizes Pent Storm worship as a post-night of horrors thing rather than a prehistoric one, blood rain and sun storm excepted.  If I wanted land goddesses in Pent I think I'd make up new ones.

Edited by Roko Joko
glaciers

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 Speaking of Mostali, how much do we know about the Mostali at the Mostali Graveyard, besides that they are chaotic?.

 I was thinking Than Ulbar is the nearest thing to a City in the waste, but chaotic  are not known for  building much of anything, let alone a city. Could Than Ulbar have once been a Dwarven Stronghold that fell to Chaos and the Mostali of the Mostali graveyard are a remnant that was corrupted ? And perhaps the chaotic Mostali form enough of a portion of Than Ulbar population to enable it to function as a city.

 Might point out the nearby plateau of Statues is also something that could be Dwarven made in the God Time.

 

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16 hours ago, David Scott said:

I don't think Sheng ever went to Prax. I think he just needed mercenaries to fight and the Praxians always fill that role. Looking at the original maps used for the historical maps, you see that although the Praxians swore allegiance to sheng, it was likely only those who were in direct contact with the northern and Kralorelan boarders. Actual Prax itself was untouched.

I regard the original maps as apocryphal because the Guide itself says

Quote

Afterwards, Sheng Seleris slunk out of
Kralorela and sought amongst the barbarian
lands for some trick to use against the
Emperor. Teshnos, Ignorance, Prax, and
Peloria were all conquered by the barbarians.

Guide p267

A similar statement appears in p364 (there is a winkle here in that Prax is said to have been conquered in the years following Sheng's failed invasion of 1363 whereas the Huck Sheng submission was in 1361.  I assume that aftewards Sheng Seleris increased the tribute and this provoked a crushed uprising)  Given that Sheng was seeking some trick to use against Godunya, I strongly doubt that he would have been satisifed with having Prax just as a source of manpower considering the tales he would have heard of a ruined city and a mountain of truestone.

As yet I do not believe that Sheng came to Prax.  But I do think that Prax itself was visited by several of Sheng's chosen warriors and that their presence caused major trauma.

16 hours ago, David Scott said:

I suspect that one of Sheng's officers visited the Paps as a token show, but Pavis is still shown as sealed on the map. This also explains how Sun County was uninvolved.

While the trolls remained in charge of the Rubble as of 1450, I strongly doubt that the Celestial Empire would have simply left it or Sun County alone.  My current thinking viz-a-viz the Rubble is that they made a major intrusion that sidestepped the seal but ultimately gave up as being worthless.

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1 minute ago, metcalph said:

I regard the original maps as apocryphal because the Guide itself says

Thanks for all that Peter, it's very useful.

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