Prax and the thousand questions about the place.

[Joerg]

Much to agree with and the usual minor quibbles with Peter's post:

2 hours ago, metcalph said:

If Sheng managed to break the Closing before Dormal, I'm not too worried about them being able to sidestep the seal.

My impression was that he didn't - his fleet used a lucky lull in the Closing, possibly extended by his mystics, but in the end the Closing caught up when they got within sight of Vormain (or, as likely, some of the Hinter islands).

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

While the Rubble might be a treasure trove of draconic magic, Sheng had first hand experience with the real Kralorelan deal, so there wasn't much new to be learned from a failed experiment. The Dara Happan and Lunar knowledge may have been a lot more useful and fascinating to him.

Quote

That assumes that Sheng knows what is in the Rubble before he decides whether or not to plunder it.  Which is unlikely even for an all-powerful demigod.  FWIW I don't believe that Sheng went to Prax but kind of like to see a more entertaining reason than it was not worth his while to plunder.

He got all manner of entertainment from his conquests in Dara Happa and his occasional struggles with Takenegi or Hon-eel. His small leap for a star but giant leap for mankind onto the moon which left the two big scars comes to mind.

Quote

Perhaps the pieces that are falling off were caused by Sheng's Visit and the reason why the Storm Bullies are so crazed about anybody trying to steal them is because they have bad memories about the visit.

There is a good chance that they have bad memories from earlier visitors, too, e.g. Palangio, the EWF, or the Jrusteli.

2 hours ago, metcalph said:

If Sheng managed to break the Closing before Dormal, I'm not too worried about them being able to sidestep the seal.  My chief qualm is that it it is something that would be remembered.  What I'm leaning towards is making the mysterious settlement of Iffinbix a Celestial Empire intrusion.

[...]

IMO at first most worshippers of Jolaty would be simple worshippers and initiates.  I don't think Praxian followers of the more austere path would be particularly common until much later.

I doubt that simple worshippers and initiates would have been able to sidestep the seal, but your idea of linking the destruction of the Iiffinbix settlement around 1400 to Selerians might very well work.

But then, never underestimate the uz. It would be weird if they had centuries to advance upon the resisting human strongholds and never took down any, unless they used them like somewhat prickly herds to fill their bellies after training their braves.

[David Scott]

@Joerg & @metcalph provide some excellent speculation on the Sheng's empire and the Wastes:

Selenteen, the Guide says:

Quote

but established a colony at the mouth of the Zola Fel that lasted several generations before disappearing, the likely victim of the Animal Nomads of the Wastes. 

So established in 1250, but not on the 1450 map. Could have been incorporated into the empire, but I don't think it was. The Praxian empire dates were 1361 to 1460, several generations = 20-25 x 7ish = 140-175ish years + 1250 = 1390-1425ish - the likely victim of the Animal Nomads of the Wastes.

Iiffinbix - my understanding is that this was inside the Walls and survived the trolls up to 1400

I don't think Sheng ever went to Prax. I think he just needed mercenaries to fight and the Praxians always fill that role. Looking at the original maps used for the historical maps, you see that although the Praxians swore allegiance to sheng, it was likely only those who were in direct contact with the northern and Kralorelan boarders. Actual Prax itself was untouched. I suspect that one of Sheng's officers visited the Paps as a token show, but Pavis is still shown as sealed on the map. This also explains how Sun County was uninvolved.

This leaves those in Prax to fight against Sheng via Tarsh. 

[Roko Joko]

On 3/17/2017 at 10:47 AM, Joerg said:

What I am still mostly unclear about is the difference between the Wastelands north and south of the Snowline.

I agree the main reason Pent is more fertile is just that it was outside the Genert blast radius.  It's not a place where Chaos won.  It's not, because it's not.  I mean, supposedly Kajabor was running around Fronela or somewhere, but that didn't turn into a wasteland either.  Maybe some of the land north of Fronela or under the White Sea did.

Glaciers might have protected some of Pent.

And there are hints about the ignorance sun god protecting it.  There's the glory of the Black Sun, and references to blood rain in eastern myths, and in the dark age map in Book of Heortling Mythology, there's a "Bloodrain" symbol in Pent with a blurb about sacrificing to demons.  So you can imagine blood rain provided fertility and propitiated the chaos armies, ushering them south, while the black sun aspect showed them the hand when they turned east.  Then Kargzant took over in the silver age.

And elf forests, too.

Ernalda, personally I'm not really compelled to put her in Pent.  For one thing Book of Heortling Mythology shows Genert's Garden extending way north, for what that's worth.  Also the GtG characterizes Pent Storm worship as a post-night of horrors thing rather than a prehistoric one, blood rain and sun storm excepted.  If I wanted land goddesses in Pent I think I'd make up new ones.

Edited March 20, 2017 by Roko Joko
glaciers

[TRose]

 Speaking of Mostali, how much do we know about the Mostali at the Mostali Graveyard, besides that they are chaotic?.

 I was thinking Than Ulbar is the nearest thing to a City in the waste, but chaotic  are not known for  building much of anything, let alone a city. Could Than Ulbar have once been a Dwarven Stronghold that fell to Chaos and the Mostali of the Mostali graveyard are a remnant that was corrupted ? And perhaps the chaotic Mostali form enough of a portion of Than Ulbar population to enable it to function as a city.

 Might point out the nearby plateau of Statues is also something that could be Dwarven made in the God Time.

 

[metcalph]

16 hours ago, David Scott said:

I don't think Sheng ever went to Prax. I think he just needed mercenaries to fight and the Praxians always fill that role. Looking at the original maps used for the historical maps, you see that although the Praxians swore allegiance to sheng, it was likely only those who were in direct contact with the northern and Kralorelan boarders. Actual Prax itself was untouched.

I regard the original maps as apocryphal because the Guide itself says

Quote

Afterwards, Sheng Seleris slunk out of
Kralorela and sought amongst the barbarian
lands for some trick to use against the
Emperor. Teshnos, Ignorance, Prax, and
Peloria were all conquered by the barbarians.

Guide p267

A similar statement appears in p364 (there is a winkle here in that Prax is said to have been conquered in the years following Sheng's failed invasion of 1363 whereas the Huck Sheng submission was in 1361.  I assume that aftewards Sheng Seleris increased the tribute and this provoked a crushed uprising)  Given that Sheng was seeking some trick to use against Godunya, I strongly doubt that he would have been satisifed with having Prax just as a source of manpower considering the tales he would have heard of a ruined city and a mountain of truestone.

As yet I do not believe that Sheng came to Prax.  But I do think that Prax itself was visited by several of Sheng's chosen warriors and that their presence caused major trauma.

16 hours ago, David Scott said:

I suspect that one of Sheng's officers visited the Paps as a token show, but Pavis is still shown as sealed on the map. This also explains how Sun County was uninvolved.

While the trolls remained in charge of the Rubble as of 1450, I strongly doubt that the Celestial Empire would have simply left it or Sun County alone.  My current thinking viz-a-viz the Rubble is that they made a major intrusion that sidestepped the seal but ultimately gave up as being worthless.

[David Scott]

1 minute ago, metcalph said:

I regard the original maps as apocryphal because the Guide itself says

Thanks for all that Peter, it's very useful.

[Harrek]

Hello, does anyone have more detailed information about Paps than what is provided in the GtG? Maybe a map of the place and generally what's there? I have the Eiritha cult description from the Tales of the Reaching Moon (actually both Prax issues 14 & 15) and The Book of Drastic Resolutions volume Prax. Where I can find more info?

I'm also interested about Pimper's Block, is there a full description of the place with a map somewhere? How many people are living there? How many slaves can be bought from there at once (generally speaking)?

In our campaign the Lunars have left the Pavis and Prax. How does it effect slave trade in Pimper's Block? Is it Issaries cultists who are running the place again after freeing of Pavis/Prax?

Is Egajia still the high priestess of Paps after lunars left (she negotiated the Armistice of Prax with lunars after all)? I guess she'll not be politically popular after Lunars were beaten. My character doesn't get along with the morokanth, that's why I'm asking...

The things I'm asking are not decided/configured in our campaign, so I'm interested to hear your thoughts, thanks.  

[David Scott]

So one thing at a time from the current draft and my thoughts

1 hour ago, Harrek said:

Is Egajia still the high priestess of Paps after lunars left (she negotiated the Armistice of Prax with lunars after all)? I guess she'll not be politically popular after Lunars were beaten. My character doesn't get along with the morokanth, that's why I'm asking...

The things I'm asking are not decided/configured in our campaign, so I'm interested to hear your thoughts, thanks.  

Egajia is Most Respected Elder (MRE) from 1572 until her death in 1627. Her death ends the eighth cycle of elders (she's number 48 since the Dawn). When it comes to the MRE there are no politics. She is chosen by Eiritha herself and is for all intents and purposes Eiritha in the Middle world. 

Quote

When the Lunars came, it was she who negotiated the Treaty of Prax. It kept the Empire out of the holiest places in the Wastelands, but ceded the Zola Fel valley to the invaders. The treaty also was also at great cost to Egajia herself. The Lunars insisted that the Paps Khan be Inire the Red of the pro-Lunar Sable tribe. By tradition, Egajia is only able to leave the Paps when escorted by the Paps Khan. However Inire bases himself shamefully at Moonbroth and ignores his holy duties. Egajia has secretly accepted the services of Roneer the Hue, the leader of the anti-lunar phratries of the Sables. When Argrath brings Jaldon to the Paps in 1624, the goddess declares Jaldon Paps Khan, Inire an outlaw and breaks the Armistice of Prax. Roneer remains by her side until her death.

After the Liberation of Pavis, Jaldon marries Egajia in a great ceremony witnessed by many thousands of nomads at the Paps. By 1627 he is back in Dragon Pass with Argrath fighting the Lunars. Egajia dies in 1629 and Jaldon is no longer the absent Paps Khan, he's just absent. The new Most Respected Elder is an Impala Priestess and she doesn't take Jaldon as her husband. She starts the ninth cycle of Most Respected Elders.

[David Scott]

1 hour ago, Harrek said:

does anyone have more detailed information about Paps than what is provided in the GtG? Maybe a map of the place and generally what's there?

There are three sections to the Paps complex: The inside (initiates and above only, no men), the Vestibule (male and female initiates) and the outside. 

The inside is deep temple complex with an entrance to the underworld. The Paps was originally just Eiritha's Necropolis and temple. With the destruction of Genert's Palace, it took in the Godly refugees and survivors from there and became something new. At the Dawn it became the exit for those who slept in the Goddesses' Dream. The deeper you go the more otherworld it will become, the main temple guardian is of course Babeester Gor and her followers.

The Vestibule is part that most nomads think of as the Paps. It has a great crumbling temple to Eiritha and shrines to her mother and sisters. Simple cells here house the devout.

Outside is an oasis fed by the Paps of the Goddess herself, small herds of all her beasts live within the Sacred Ground, tended by her Priestesses and Khans. Simple gardens of plants, shrubs and trees dot the area. There is a simple tent village for the Paps Khan and another Storm Khan when they are here. Visiting nomads set up further out. The land here is lush and green. Further out still is the foreigners camp. Herd Guard are always active within the Sacred Ground. 

There's no map as this changes all the time. It is not a permanent camp as the nomads are forbidden to do this. All that is fixed is the Stream, the pond it fills and the facade of the complex. Here are two pictures of Petra that I use for inspiration. Please note that the land is green here and not the parched land of Petra, add palm trees and horticulture, herds and tents.

The entrance to the Vestibule

The main camp area - fill it with green, palm trees and horticulture, herds and tents. The face is rocky as here but the land above is pasture. The caves in the foreground is where the large pond would be with the stream snaking down via small waterfalls.

[soltakss]

In my Glorantha, the Oasis Folk use Rammed Earth for their buildings, so the Paps looks a bit like the above, but all the walls are built using compressed earth blocks.

As for what is inside the Paps, I have all the Earth Deities of Prax and the Wastes present at the Paps. The vestibule has shrines to the majority, higgledy-piggledy rooms, stacked on top of each other, some merging with others. Priests and Initiates wander between them continually, so you see that all the earth deities are connected. Some shrines are outside, so that lay members can participate.

Inside the Paps, there are rooms where the Initiates, Acolytes and Priestesses live. Mixed in with these are shrines to some of the earth deities. Deeper in are temples to other powerful earth deities, for example Ernalda and Earth Witch. Shrines to deities such as Ronance, the 48 Old Ones and so on are scattered around. Deeper within are the Dark Earths, with shrines and temples to Asrelia, Ty Kora Tek, Grandmother Earth and so on.

The Paps doesn't make any distinction between Praxian or non-Praxian earth deities. So, there is a shrine to Hon-Eel inside the Paps, even though Hon-Eel isn't a Praxian goddess. In fact, any initiate or priestess can make a shrine in the Paps by bringing an earth idol and performing a ritual to show it is an earth or fertility deitiy. The shrine might be small and not have a permanent retinue, but once accepted it is difficult to remove.

But, my Glorantha varies.

[Harrek]

4 hours ago, David Scott said:

When it comes to the MRE there are no politics. She is chosen by Eiritha herself and is for all intents and purposes Eiritha in the Middle world. 

That's bad news and also what I expected. I still doubt that she's immune to politics or that there's no politics around the MRE. It's not about if she will continue in her position, but what she can achieve with that position. That is of course my own opinion.

Thanks for the information David. I'm not sure if it's because of some previous forum discussions, but I already had Petra temple in my mind even before you posted the pictures...

Soltakss, the rammed earth buildings are also a nice idea for the oasis people. I think we'll go with that. 

How about Pimper's Bock, any information about it more than there already is in GtG?

[jeffjerwin]

1 hour ago, Harrek said:

That's bad news and also what I expected. I still doubt that she's immune to politics or that there's no politics around the MRE. It's not about if she will continue in her position, but what she can achieve with that position. That is of course my own opinion.

"Politics" seems to me be pragmatic behaviour based on power or wealth (not that they are far different). Gods and their aspects in the World (devotees) are interested in behaviour that supports their god's interests/God-time actions. Sometimes that plays out like politics and sometimes not. But I think there might be room for different aspects seeing things differently. Eiritha has very basic pragmatic interests, though they are pragmatic primarily in terms of her needs in the Greater Darkness. Mating with Storm Bull is one these "political" decisions. Maybe if we think like a dominant female in a herd (like an elephant matriarch) we can approach how she would other gods and their refractions in Time.

[soltakss]

2 hours ago, Harrek said:

That's bad news and also what I expected. I still doubt that she's immune to politics or that there's no politics around the MRE. It's not about if she will continue in her position, but what she can achieve with that position. That is of course my own opinion.

I think that the Most Reverend Elder is not elected by other High Preiestesses, but is appointed by Eiritha hersrelf, that's what David means by no politics. Once she has been elected, of course, she is drawn into the politics of Praxians.

[Harrek]

Just now, soltakss said:

Once she has been elected, of course, she is drawn into the politics of Praxians.

That's exactly what I also meant.

[David Scott]

5 hours ago, Harrek said:

That's bad news and also what I expected. I still doubt that she's immune to politics or that there's no politics around the MRE. It's not about if she will continue in her position, but what she can achieve with that position. That is of course my own opinion.

The position is for life, she's selected by the Goddess. She spends most of her life in ceremony and rarely leaves the Paps. Her goal is the serve the goddess. I'm unsure what politicking you could involve her in.

Quote

Thanks for the information David. I'm not sure if it's because of some previous forum discussions, but I already had Petra temple in my mind even before you posted the pictures...

I've posted them before.

Quote

How about Pimper's Bock, any information about it more than there already is in GtG?

Maybe tomorrow.

Edited December 17, 2017 by David Scott

[g33k]

38 minutes ago, David Scott said:

The position is for life, she's selected by the Goddess. She spends most of her life in ceremony and rarely leaves the Paps. Her goal is the serve the goddess. I'm unsure what politicking you could involve her in.

Well, she was forced to cede the Zola Fel, and accept Inire the Red.  Politics.  She had to hide her association with Roneer -- more politics.

Which priestesses does she favor, to do which sorts of tasks?  To which Khans & tribes does she entrust important duties?   Etc...

Those whom the MRE favors are likely to be given more precedence and rise in political influence.

Does she give these trusts to a Khan she worries may be swaying to the Lunar cause, to pull him back to Praxian ways?  Politics.

... etc ...

 

[David Scott]

10 hours ago, Harrek said:

I'm also interested about Pimper's Block, is there a full description of the place with a map somewhere?

No. This place isn't complex

 

It's a low block of rock carved with orlanthi and Praxian runes - an altar from the god time. It was the original meeting place of the Praxians and Theylan missionaries after the Dawn. Unusually it doesn't have a stream feeding the oasis although it's a fertile as the rest of Prax. The only other area like it is the long dry which is actually drier than normal for Prax. It has a spring in a pool. 

There's no permanent nomad settlement, a semi-perminent Issaries market (5-10 people)and a permanent Oasis folk settlement. Roughly 1000 Oasis Folk here (10 oases in Prax, Monkey Ruins has none, 12 oases in the Wastes, Daka's Creek has none, so 20000 Oasis Folk spread between 20 oases = 1000 per oasis. Made up of the standard split 500 children, 250 men, 250 women). Oasis folk live in simple hovels. Each oasis has a different style. Lack of wood will really challenge building design. Some styles will be sunken, underground, packed earth, adobe, thatch, etc.

The nomad clan currently in control of the oasis at that time of the year will likely be present nearby until they move off and are replaced by the next group following their migration route.

11 hours ago, Harrek said:

How many slaves can be bought from there at once (generally speaking)?

The slave market is entirely dependant on surrounding circumstances. Depending on the time period you are playing in and the season. Refugees are pouring in from sartar during the lunar occupation. However I'd say maybe 10 or so every 1 to 2 weeks at a push. Just make up what you need.

[M Helsdon]

5 hours ago, Harrek said:

How about Pimper's Bock, any information about it more than there already is in GtG?

There's a 13th Age picture Chaosium have shared:

 

[David Scott]

6 minutes ago, g33k said:

Well, she was forced to cede the Zola Fel, and accept Inire the Red.  Politics.

I'm not sure I'd call that politics - that's military might. Do it or we defile your sacred sites. 

6 minutes ago, g33k said:

She had to hide her association with Roneer -- more politics.

In hindsight I've actually removed the word secret from that section. Inire the Red didn't really care about the job. The title was just a perk. It wasn't secret that Roneer the Hue had taken over his duties - everyone could see that. The Paps Khan has little real power and to wield even that he needs to be at the Paps. Moonbroth had more hedonistic delights.

6 minutes ago, g33k said:

Which priestesses does she favor, to do which sorts of tasks?  To which Khans & tribes does she entrust important duties?   Etc...

Reading the cult write up in Cults of Prax, I don't get any real sense of this happening. The Paps cult of Eiritha is far removed from the tribal cult. It even says that some of the Paps priestesses are not trusted within the tribes. The Paps has no real khans of its own. The tribes are independent tied in by their shared mythology. The Paps is not the centre of a centralised cult. The Paps is a very different to Nochet.

6 minutes ago, g33k said:

Does she give these trusts to a Khan she worries may be swaying to the Lunar cause, to pull him back to Praxian ways?  Politics.

This dealt with within the tribes. I don't think this is Paps involved stuff.

[David Scott]

10 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

There's a 13th Age picture Chaosium have shared:

Well remembered Martin, although it's from HeroQuest Glorantha page 100. Pimper's block has taken on a new life. Once the sand and earth had been cleared away by Lunar researchers and their slave diggers, it revealed that the altar was in fact the the roof cap of a small ziggurat. 

[metcalph]

2 hours ago, David Scott said:

Well remembered Martin, although it's from HeroQuest Glorantha page 100. Pimper's block has taken on a new life. Once the sand and earth had been cleared away by Lunar researchers and their slave diggers, it revealed that the altar was in fact the the roof cap of a small ziggurat. 

If Pimper's Block is a Ziggurat, then it would have most probably been built by the Bright Empire as Ziggurats are a Dara Happan thing.  

[jeffjerwin]

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

If Pimper's Block is a Ziggurat, then it would have most probably been built by the Bright Empire as Ziggurats are a Dara Happan thing.  

There's at least one example of a ziggurat being associated with a peripheral culture of the EWF - the New Pavis temple, which is clearly conservative in design. Though the Bright Empire's residual influence might have brought ziggurats to them. The old illustrations in the war game and in WF of dragonewt structures, however, seem to suggest, fluid, surreal, and labyrinthine structures for the actual Draconic edifices. Did the Bright Empire reach that far east in Prax?

[metcalph]

2 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

There's at least one example of a ziggurat being associated with a peripheral culture of the EWF - the New Pavis temple, which is clearly conservative in design.

I'm not sure how you see it as conservative in design. Since the EWF did control Dara Happa at some point, a Ziggurat could have been built in the city as a sign of the Empire's import (perhaps the design was mandated by the Third Council as part of Accelerated Dragon Worship?).  The design was much copied (and destroyed by Jaldon) only to restored by the Dwarves when they were hired to built a new temple.  

An alternate possibility that the New Pavis Temple stems from the Sun Dome Templars is less tenable IMO as it's not topped by a dome.

 

[g33k]

34 minutes ago, metcalph said:

An alternate possibility that the New Pavis Temple stems from the Sun Dome Templars is less tenable IMO as it's not topped by a dome.

I would always presume that a conqueror (or even mere successor) could repurpose/renovate to eliminate features that would be distinctively part of the Wrong Religion...

Not that I'm arguing it WAS previously a Sun Dome; just that the absence of a dome is not really any evidence either way!

 

[metcalph]

8 minutes ago, g33k said:

I would always presume that a conqueror (or even mere successor) could repurpose/renovate to eliminate features that would be distinctively part of the Wrong Religion...

There's quite a lot of a difference between a Sun Dome Temple (which is what the Sun Dome Templars would have built when they settled in the River of Cradles in the Imperial Age) and the Ziggurat (which is what the New Pavis Temple seems to be).  After Jaldon sacked the place who is going to have the time in redesigning the temples to the radical extent required?