Prax and the thousand questions about the place.

[Joerg]

Ziggurats were the rage all over Dragon Pass, if you look at the Ivory Plinth or Wasp Nest.

[Noita]

The Ziggurats were ancient shrines to Yamsur.  Or so some drunk told me in Gimpys..

[Harrek]

11 hours ago, David Scott said:

The Paps cult of Eiritha is far removed from the tribal cult. It even says that some of the Paps priestesses are not trusted within the tribes. The Paps has no real khans of its own. The tribes are independent tied in by their shared mythology. The Paps is not the centre of a centralised cult. The Paps is a very different to Nochet.

This is good news for my character. He is very much in rival with the leading khan of the morokanth tribe. So maybe it's not impossible, if difficult, to turn the MRE Egajia's head for my characters favor. He is after all trying to bring Genert back (some might remember my postings from the different topics related to Genert and the Green Age. The characters did return from the Green Age after ten or so sessions, only terribly changed ). 

Thank's for your thoughts about Paps and Pimper's Block everyone. I'd forgot the the excellent picture from Pimper's Block and the ziggurat also.

[David Scott]

Looking at the picture:

This appears to be a small three step pyramid. This easily fits the Guide description of a "Once a simple altar shared by the Orlanthi and Praxians" It's not complex and not very big, each step could be 8 foot. Given that it is Orlanthi as well as Praxian, it likely has no roof. As it's very overgrown at the back, so it's likely built into a rise so is not a full pyramid. It has similarities to sections of the hanging gardens of Babylon just the stairs and steps:

 

I would posit that it's a god time structure, perhaps the home of a minor deity. Or built / modified by the Theylan missionaries after the Dawn as a cross cultural meeting point with the nomads. I feel that modification is a better story. It was eclipsed in power once the Paring Stones were rediscovered.

 

[g33k]

10 hours ago, metcalph said:

There's quite a lot of a difference between a Sun Dome Temple (which is what the Sun Dome Templars would have built when they settled in the River of Cradles in the Imperial Age) and the Ziggurat (which is what the New Pavis Temple seems to be). 

True 'nuf!

10 hours ago, metcalph said:

After Jaldon sacked the place who is going to have the time in redesigning the temples to the radical extent required?

I might expect a demolish/rebuild using the same stones, maybe...

 

[Joerg]

4 hours ago, David Scott said:

Looking at the picture:

This appears to be a small three step pyramid. This easily fits the Guide description of a "Once a simple altar shared by the Orlanthi and Praxians" It's not complex and not very big, each step could be 8 foot. Given that it is Orlanthi as well as Praxian, it likely has no roof. As it's very overgrown at the back, so it's likely built into a rise so is not a full pyramid. It has similarities to sections of the hanging gardens of Babylon just the stairs and steps:

 

I would posit that it's a god time structure, perhaps the home of a minor deity. Or built / modified by the Theylan missionaries after the Dawn as a cross cultural meeting point with the nomads. I feel that modification is a better story. It was eclipsed in power once the Paring Stones were rediscovered.

 

Or it is a partially recovered place of power built using just dry clay bricks, not burnt bricks. I am thinking of the huge clay brick pyramids of the Lambayeque, which now are deeply eroded hillocks. Early in the Golden Age, there was no erosion to fend off, so unburnt mud brick would have been a good idea for monumental buildings. The stone structure may be a later addition.

The style reminds me of the Pavis temple in New Pavis, a half pyramid leaning to the wall rather than forming a complete pyramid in itself.

[M Helsdon]

20 hours ago, David Scott said:

Well remembered Martin, although it's from HeroQuest Glorantha page 100. Pimper's block has taken on a new life. Once the sand and earth had been cleared away by Lunar researchers and their slave diggers, it revealed that the altar was in fact the the roof cap of a small ziggurat. 

I forgot - it's the piece I sponsored for 13th Age... 8-)

[David Scott]

12 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

I forgot - it's the piece I sponsored for 13th Age... 8-)

So you sponsored it for 13G and we used it in HeroQuest Glorantha. How time flies. 

[M Helsdon]

12 minutes ago, David Scott said:

So you sponsored it for 13G and we used it in HeroQuest Glorantha. How time flies. 

Indeed.

In case it is of interest - an analysis of the picture:

Vae Victis

Followers of Argrath White Bull have brought a high-status Lunar captive from New Pavis to the oasis of Pimper’s Block. This is a thriving slave market on the border between Dragon Pass and Prax.

 

Foreground:

A Bison Tribe woman of the Storm Bull cult and member of the Bullocks War Society contemptuously guards a captive. She wears a dyed leather cuirass with pteruges decorated with Eternal Battle Runes, vambraces, a wide war belt and a heavy bison hide cape. Her helmet is decorated with bison horns and she wears a bison hide cape. A long sword is scabbarded at her hip and she holds a war axe. Her forearms and lower legs are dyed red to denote that she is at war. Air, Death and Eternal Battle Runes and a bison head are tattooed upon her arms and legs. Her hands and feet have been painted red to represent blood.

The Wind Lord of the Eaglebrown Warlocks is naked save for a covering of magically protective woad, a bronze gorget and a light shawl loosely worn over his shoulders. He has a long sword slung on his back. His body and limbs are covered in tattoos, mostly stylized Air and Movement Runes. A large stylized Thunderbird adorns his chest and he bears a yellow Air Rune on his forehead.

In contrast, the Humakt cultist of the Swordbrothers is heavily, though curiously, armored. He wears a gorget at his throat, articulated segmented manica armor on his arms, tassets to protect his upper legs, and greaves. It is likely that he has Humakti geasa preventing him from wearing head, chest or abdomen armor.

Numerous tattoos are visible on his naked chest; these depict two Heroes grasping a longsword, forming a Death Rune; two smaller Truth Runes are set to either side. The same cult runes are present on his greaves.

The Humakti uses two swords, one of which glows with magic.

 

Background:

Members of the Pavis County militia and the Real City militia. One is handing up a lance to a Zebra Tribe standard-bearer of the Pavis Royal Guard. The other holds her helmet ready.

The Zebra rider wears a gorget and lacquered bronze chest and pauldron armor of multiple scale lames, with a high neck protector, and low greaves. Her tattooed arms, decorated with Fire, Movement and Man Runes, are washed with red ochre. Additional armor, consisting of laced lames, used when afoot, is visible at the rear of her saddle.

Her saddle includes a very high cantle to protect the rider from missiles, and sits upon a hide cloth decorated to appear like a lion-skin with stylized paws.

Her horse-zebra is protected on the chest with a woolen and felt poitrel, decorated with a Man Rune signifying the cult of Pavis. The rows of woolen tassels offer some protection.

Her horse has been magically given zebra coloring and markings.

[Tindalos]

I was wondering, are the Praxian clans depicted with counters in Nomad gods all of the clans? (So 18 Sable clans, 14 High Llama, 30 Impala clans, 19 Bison clans, and 19 Morokanth clans)

Also, how common are wild/unguarded herds in the wastes? If you spot a herd of impala, should you be expecting them to be owned?

[David Scott]

35 minutes ago, Tindalos said:

I was wondering, are the Praxian clans depicted with counters in Nomad gods all of the clans? (So 18 Sable clans, 14 High Llama, 30 Impala clans, 19 Bison clans, and 19 Morokanth clans)

No, once you do the maths with average clan size of 500 and average family size of 24:

In 1621, 

Bison, 80k, families per sept 9, 3-5 septs per clan, 150 actual clans. Minimum 95k herds.
High Llama, 65k, families per sept 4, 5-10 septs per clan, 120 actual clans. Minimum 67k herds.
Sable 80k, 65k, families per sept 4, 5-10 septs per clan, 140 actual clans. Minimum 183k herds.
Morocanth 80k, 65k, families per sept 5, 4-8 septs per clan, 150 actual clans. Minimum 102k herds.
Impala 120k, 65k, families per sept 6, 4-7 septs per clan, 230 actual clans. Minimum 524k herds.

the numbers don't include slaves which are roughly 5% IIRC.

35 minutes ago, Tindalos said:

Also, how common are wild/unguarded herds in the wastes?

As per the encounter tables. However I play them as only story generated events. Eiritha does send herds out from the earth or they drift in from a hidden green.

35 minutes ago, Tindalos said:

If you spot a herd of impala, should you be expecting them to be owned?

Yes, always unless you discover otherwise as you close.

Edited January 2, 2018 by David Scott

[Joerg]

8 hours ago, Tindalos said:

Also, how common are wild/unguarded herds in the wastes? If you spot a herd of impala, should you be expecting them to be owned?

Speaking from a Praxian beast rider perspective, if you are approaching any type of herd, it is going to be owned by you. Prior ownership claims might be an obstacle, little more.

Edited January 3, 2018 by Joerg

[David Scott]

On 03/01/2018 at 7:05 AM, Joerg said:

if you are approaching any type of herd

Not of your own Tribe...

[Tindalos]

What's known about the Charioteers?

They got a token in Nomad Gods, and were mentioned in the introduction, but I don't believe they ever got described anywhere.

[kalidor]

Hi everyone!!

 

What do we know about the "Hidden ancestor"/Twin stars? I cant find mythos about them.

Have fun!!

[Byll]

There's some stuff from the lunar perspective in the old Imperial Lunar Handbook 2 Under the Red Moon

Erelia and Verelia

glorantha.wikia.com/Star_Twins

[David Scott]

On 26/01/2018 at 4:26 PM, kalidor said:

What do we know about the "Hidden ancestor"/Twin stars? I cant find mythos about them.

The Hidden Ancestor is the name I coined for the original Moon Rune cult found in the Wastes. It's one of the "Elemental" spirit societies of the Praxians. Each groups together similar spirits in the Praxian Tradition. You'll only find the Thirstless spirit society (Water rune) mentioned in HeroQuest Glorantha, the Burners (Fire), Sky Gazers (Sky), Shadow People (Darkness) and Hidden Ancestor (Moon & Sky) societies have yet to see print. There is no Earth or Air rune societies, Earth spirits are attached to cults at the Paps and the Air spirits are attached to the Orlanth cult in the Wastes. 

Hidden Ancestor? - the name comes from the fact that originally only one of the pair was visible. In the Second age, the Younger suddenly became visible to everyone, glowing the same yellowish-white color as its twin. Twenty eight years after the rising of the Red Moon, the twins started to change color, phasing harmoniously with the Red Moon. When the Moon is full the Younger glows a bright red. It slowly fades to its original yellowish-white color as the Moon enters its Dark and Dying phases, then returns to red as the Moon becomes full again. The Elder follows the same pattern in reverse, being yellowish-white on Full Moon days and red on Dark and Dying days. This is combined with their crossing the sky along the Southpath, taking three days to make the journey, then vanishing for a like period of time. The full 42 day cycle is well know to the Praxians.

The change in phasing occurred when the Hidden Ancestor was revealed to the Hungry Plateau Sables. Page 336 of the Guide tells us:

Quote

In 1/28 (1275), Jannisor led a volunteer army against the city of Glamour. The Outer City fell easily to his eager and skilled troops. The Great Bridge was assaulted and carried, and the cheering army entered the sacred city upon the wake of a Sable war band. Jannisor was aware that the Sable Folk were immune to the Lunar influences outside of the Inner walls, but he seemed ignorant of the deeper contacts between the “Lunar Deer” people and the Red Goddess. This proved his undoing, and the Hero was killed by the Elder Star Twin, while the Sable People received the secrets of inspira on from the Younger Star Twin.

The Lunars call the Twinstars Erelia and Verelia, but the Praxians know them as twin brothers, sometimes twin sisters and some times twin brother and sister. Each pair had different names, but most just called them Elder and Younger.

The two societies met when the Hungry Plateau Sable returned to Prax in the first failed Lunar invasion of 1608.

To all intents and purposes the societies are identical, however - 

The Hidden Ancestor - The Younger provides charms that relate to the Moon Rune. Typically illusionary, contrary, polarising and changing. Occasionally Women or Mens magic and hunting magics are offered. The spirits themselves manifest as shimmering silver flames that can often bless and purify. There is no shaman path.

The Twinstars - The Younger provides charms that relate to the Full half phase of the Moon Rune. The Full half phase can mimic Fire rune charms like those of the Lowfires and Change rune charms that can alter the world in small ways. Occasionally Women or Mens magic and hunting magics are offered. The spirits themselves manifest as shimmering silver flames that can often bless and purify. The Twinstars have a shaman path and are also part of both the Praxian & Lunar tradition. As part of the Lunar tradition, members have access to other moon phase charms and its shaman are often part of Jalakeel's society.

 In Both, the Elder provides Sky Rune Charms. The Elder provides charms that relate to the Sky Rune. Typically leadership, battle and society. 

Both cults are integral to the Sable people as they are their ancestors. When the Lunars leave after the Fall of Pavis, the Twinstars society effectively vanishes and all Praxian sables return to the Hidden Ancestor (or die in the purges and backlash) although some are clearly changed. This changes the society imperceptibly to outsiders, although inside I believe they learn the shaman path and access to some unusual Moon magic.

There's more in this thread:

 

[David Scott]

On 26/01/2018 at 2:47 PM, Tindalos said:

What's known about the Charioteers?

They got a token in Nomad Gods

Which token? I've just rechecked my set just in case I'm going mad:-)

On 26/01/2018 at 2:47 PM, Tindalos said:

and were mentioned in the introduction

Which introduction? I've just reread it and searched the doc and can find no reference to them.

Rules: https://www.chaosium.com/nomad-gods-rule-booklet-pdf/

Board and counters: http://www.vassalengine.org/wiki/Module:Nomad_Gods

Game engine: http://www.vassalengine.org

[jeffjerwin]

3 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Which token? I've just rechecked my set just in case I'm going mad:-)

Which introduction? I've just reread it and searched the doc and can find no reference to them.

Rules: https://www.chaosium.com/nomad-gods-rule-booklet-pdf/

Board and counters: http://www.vassalengine.org/wiki/Module:Nomad_Gods

Game engine: http://www.vassalengine.org

Perhaps a reference to Ronance (it could have been mistaken for a chariot)?

[David Scott]

22 hours ago, Byll said:

There's some stuff from the lunar perspective in the old Imperial Lunar Handbook 2 Under the Red Moon Erelia and Verelia

glorantha.wikia.com/Star_Twins

As the Glorantha Wiki says, the main references are in the Guide and the Glorious ReAscent of Yelm. I like the Planetary runes of the Glorious ReAscent. The Twinstars first appeared in Nomad Gods as one of the counters with no explanation. Their rules and background later appeared in Wyrms Footnotes 4 in Red Moon in Prax and reprinted in Wyrms Footprints. I'd avoid ILH2 as I feel that it overcomplicates them, but you could certainly use the writeup if you wanted.

[M Helsdon]

43 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Which token? I've just rechecked my set just in case I'm going mad:-)

Which introduction? I've just reread it and searched the doc and can find no reference to them.

 

The Book of Drastic Resolutions: Prax provided a counter and description of the Charioteers (and is doubtless non-canonical).

[M Helsdon]

On ‎12‎/‎18‎/‎2017 at 1:54 PM, David Scott said:

As it's very overgrown at the back, so it's likely built into a rise so is not a full pyramid. It has similarities to sections of the hanging gardens of Babylon just the stairs and steps:

My understanding is that the 'Gardens of Babylon' were probably a terraced garden at Nineveh watered by a canal. Your picture is of Machu Pichu. 8-)

On ‎12‎/‎18‎/‎2017 at 1:54 PM, David Scott said:

I would posit that it's a god time structure, perhaps the home of a minor deity. Or built / modified by the Theylan missionaries after the Dawn as a cross cultural meeting point with the nomads. I feel that modification is a better story. It was eclipsed in power once the Paring Stones were rediscovered.

I'm presently attempting to 'map' the interior. Exterior front view:

 

Edited January 27, 2018 by M Helsdon

[Tindalos]

4 hours ago, David Scott said:

Which token? I've just rechecked my set just in case I'm going mad:-)

Which introduction? I've just reread it and searched the doc and can find no reference to them.

Was looking at the tokens here: https://boardgamegeek.com/image/1389650/nomad-gods?size=large

The one at the bottom of the Impala tribe's group, next to the Impala shaman/fetch and what I'm assuming is the Star Witches.

And sorry, I meant the Apologia and Explanatia near the start, page 4. "There are several playing counters that are included among the pieces but which are not given any rules in this booklet. Among these are the Redwood. the Charioteers, the Spider, and so on."

 

4 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

The Book of Drastic Resolutions: Prax provided a counter and description of the Charioteers (and is doubtless non-canonical).

Ahh, thank you very much!

[David Scott]

11 hours ago, Tindalos said:

Was looking at the tokens here: https://boardgamegeek.com/image/1389650/nomad-gods?size=large

The one at the bottom of the Impala tribe's group, next to the Impala shaman/fetch and what I'm assuming is the Star Witches.

And sorry, I meant the Apologia and Explanatia near the start, page 4. "There are several playing counters that are included among the pieces but which are not given any rules in this booklet. Among these are the Redwood. the Charioteers, the Spider, and so on."

Thanks - they are in my no use ziplock :-)

In the 1977 Original and on the 1981 sheet they looked so

 

on the page numbering sheet they are marked WF and it clearly says - 

But there don't seem have been any ever published. I've gone through what little of Greg's original notes I have on the game and there's no mention. Plenty of other units mentioned - just not the Charioteers.

15 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

The Book of Drastic Resolutions: Prax provided a counter and description of the Charioteers (and is doubtless non-canonical).

My only concern with that version is that it links them with the Impala tribe likely due to the yellow background. In the 1981 counter sheet they were purple - the same as the other independents. In the 1981 sheet, their CF also indicates that that they don't need support further supporting the fact they are an independent unit. Their magic factor is high compared to normal units so they likely have a magical origin. What pulls their chariots isn't shown. I like the idea that they could be a unit inspired by Ronance occasionally brought together by his descendants. However the chariot style is different and what pulls it is missing. Here's Ronance for reference:

It could also be that are some leftover from the Sheng's Empire in Prax.

[kalidor]

23 hours ago, David Scott said:

The Hidden Ancestor is the name I coined for the original Moon Rune cult found in the Wastes. It's one of the "Elemental" spirit societies of the Praxians. Each groups together similar spirits in the Praxian Tradition. You'll only find the Thirstless spirit society (Water rune) mentioned in HeroQuest Glorantha, the Burners (Fire), Sky Gazers (Sky), Shadow People (Darkness) and Hidden Ancestor (Moon & Sky) societies have yet to see print. There is no Earth or Air rune societies, Earth spirits are attached to cults at the Paps and the Air spirits are attached to the Orlanth cult in the Wastes. 

Hidden Ancestor? - the name comes from the fact that originally only one of the pair was visible. In the Second age, the Younger suddenly became visible to everyone, glowing the same yellowish-white color as its twin. Twenty eight years after the rising of the Red Moon, the twins started to change color, phasing harmoniously with the Red Moon. When the Moon is full the Younger glows a bright red. It slowly fades to its original yellowish-white color as the Moon enters its Dark and Dying phases, then returns to red as the Moon becomes full again. The Elder follows the same pattern in reverse, being yellowish-white on Full Moon days and red on Dark and Dying days. This is combined with their crossing the sky along the Southpath, taking three days to make the journey, then vanishing for a like period of time. The full 42 day cycle is well know to the Praxians.

The change in phasing occurred when the Hidden Ancestor was revealed to the Hungry Plateau Sables. Page 336 of the Guide tells us:

The Lunars call the Twinstars Erelia and Verelia, but the Praxians know them as twin brothers, sometimes twin sisters and some times twin brother and sister. Each pair had different names, but most just called them Elder and Younger.

The two societies met when the Hungry Plateau Sable returned to Prax in the first failed Lunar invasion of 1608.

To all intents and purposes the societies are identical, however - 

The Hidden Ancestor - The Younger provides charms that relate to the Moon Rune. Typically illusionary, contrary, polarising and changing. Occasionally Women or Mens magic and hunting magics are offered. The spirits themselves manifest as shimmering silver flames that can often bless and purify. There is no shaman path.

The Twinstars - The Younger provides charms that relate to the Full half phase of the Moon Rune. The Full half phase can mimic Fire rune charms like those of the Lowfires and Change rune charms that can alter the world in small ways. Occasionally Women or Mens magic and hunting magics are offered. The spirits themselves manifest as shimmering silver flames that can often bless and purify. The Twinstars have a shaman path and are also part of both the Praxian & Lunar tradition. As part of the Lunar tradition, members have access to other moon phase charms and its shaman are often part of Jalakeel's society.

 In Both, the Elder provides Sky Rune Charms. The Elder provides charms that relate to the Sky Rune. Typically leadership, battle and society. 

Both cults are integral to the Sable people as they are their ancestors. When the Lunars leave after the Fall of Pavis, the Twinstars society effectively vanishes and all Praxian sables return to the Hidden Ancestor (or die in the purges and backlash) although some are clearly changed. This changes the society imperceptibly to outsiders, although inside I believe they learn the shaman path and access to some unusual Moon magic.

There's more in this thread:

If they are their ancestor. Were they star captains who took wives from the sable tribe?