Prax and the thousand questions about the place.

[Noita]

On 20/02/2018 at 12:33 PM, Iskallor said:

Are slaves bought and sold in New Pavis?

I will ask this again

[Yelm's Light]

57 minutes ago, Iskallor said:

I will ask this again

Outside of it, in Badside.

[M Helsdon]

2 hours ago, Iskallor said:

I will ask this again

No slave market has ever been identified in or around Pavis. Instead, the sale of slaves near Pavis is probably informal, or formally carried out at Pimper's Block.

[David Scott]

4 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

No slave market has ever been identified in or around Pavis. Instead, the sale of slaves near Pavis is probably informal, or formally carried out at Pimper's Block.

This is also likely intentional as the box in Pavis GtA page 63 says that slavery is legal amongst the Praxians and Lunars, however not all Orlanthi do this. A Slave market in Pavis might not be a good thing hence Pimpers Block. In the Trade in Prax section on page 66, the Issaries cult traded slaves in the region and in the Second Age morokanth started to as well. Clearly the morokanth weren't welcome at Pimpers block as Issaries had a hold. Likely that wanted to control their own trade not through a middleman. I suspect that the morokanth trade informally where needed and put out word that they are there. Also Moonbroth is likely now the focus of Lunar trading and still corflu is still the other trade post.

Edited February 24, 2018 by David Scott

[Noita]

Thanks!

So in New Pavis there is an Eirithan and Waha Temple. What is that going to look like? Nomads don't worship in temples and dislike buildings. I understand that locals go there to offer sacrifice and New Pavis is a city so therefore buildings. Is it like a tent or perhaps merely four stout walls open to the sky?  Currently I have the corral filled with totems and holy herd beasts, painted and adorned with religious bits and bobs.

 

"Dorasar’s founding pact agreed to a temple to these deities as well, even if such temples are foreign to Praxian traditional ways."

Edited February 26, 2018 by Iskallor

[David Scott]

The temple is in the Farmers Quarter at F-1, there's what I would suspect in a coral adjacent to it. I think it's a real temple. Pavis GtA says:

Quote

Temple. Eiritha and Waha.  This temple is staffed by exiled Praxian shamans, who perform the rituals to appease Waha and Eiritha. Despite the fact that very few citizens participate in the ceremonies (indeed, most Pavisites avoid approaching this temple), the and these rituals are considered necessary for the city’s existence. [...]

Given that they had to build the temple, I think it's an Orlanthi style temple to Eiritha the Herd Mother and Waha the Butcher - both Orlanthi deities. Inside are Orlanthi style representations of those concerned. Something like the image below sits against a wall:

Eiritha is more up right and is a COW. like this - 

With big horns. Waha holds a butchers knife and is represented as on page 107 of the Glorantha Soucebook.

The coral is as you mentioned.

[Noita]

Waha is an Orlanthi deity?

[Joerg]

3 hours ago, Iskallor said:

Waha is an Orlanthi deity?

No, definitely not. There is some crossover in the Pol-Joni tribe, and there are followers of both Orlanth and Waha especially in the Bison tribe, but that's about it. But New Pavis initially included Praxians in its citizenry, until some unpleasantness led to them being complimented outside of Dorasar's walled city, to Badside. Farmer's Quarter took over the ground their tents had covered before, IIRC.

[David Scott]

3 hours ago, Iskallor said:

Waha is an Orlanthi deity?

Sure, he’s a minor god of butchers. Have a look at the Glorantha Sourcebook page 107. He’s Orlanth’s nephew. That’s why when the Theylan’s arrive in Prax in 35ST they were welcomed.

40 minutes ago, Joerg said:

There is some crossover in the Pol-Joni tribe, and there are followers of both Orlanth and Waha especially in the Bison tribe, but that's about it.

Orlanthi culture was very much welcomed and embraced in the First Age, that’s why Orlanth’s cult is so widespread amongst the Praxians. There are 15k amongst the Praxians alone, with over 500 of those being Vingans. The Pol-Joni only account for 960 of those numbers, but they have the Thunderous and Rex subcults as well, the others only have the Adventurous subcult. The largest group are in the Impala Tribe accounting for 9.5k of the total. The bison tribe count only for about 1.2k. All of the major tribes have Orlanth followers, with only the Agimori, basmoli and Baboons of the minor tribes having none. Have a look at the Cults of Prax cult distribution table for further info. These figures are based on updated numbers from there. 

Orlanth’s mastery conflicts with that of Waha’s, so under the Storm influence area which all of Prax falls into, Storm worship naturally occurs. This is one of the major reasons that the Pol-Joni could establish themselves and influence the Paps into accepting them. Eiritha is the Orlanthi Herd Mother. I think Dorosar’s and his priests just did what they knew, hence my idea for the imagery. I suspect that farming communities from the valley sent their priestesses to the temple to get Eiritha rune magic. 

40 minutes ago, Joerg said:

New Pavis initially included Praxians in its citizenry, until some unpleasantness led to them being complimented outside of Dorasar's walled city, to Badside. Farmer's Quarter took over the ground their tents had covered before, IIRC.

Praxians were only excluded in 1572 after the Pavis uprising (this is the start of the “vanilla” Praxian campaign until 1610). They had been there since the city’s founding in 1550. Pavis GTA:

Quote

They lost many of their rights because of that fight, for they no longer have a member upon the council, nor may they ever camp on the south of the river within twenty miles of Pavis.

I think it’s only with the coming of the Lunars that permanent camps were reestablished outside the city.  

[scott-martin]

45 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Pol-Joni only account for 960 of those numbers, but they have the Thunderous and Rex subcults as well,

Rex survives among the Pol-Joni. Now that's exciting!!

[Byll]

3 hours ago, David Scott said:

Eiritha is the Orlanthi Herd Mother. I think Dorosar’s and his priests just did what they knew, hence my idea for the imagery. I suspect that farming communities from the valley sent their priestesses to the temple to get Eiritha rune magic. 

Things have changed substantially. In the No-longer-canon 'Thunder Rebels', the heard mothers of the Orlanthi, Entra, Nevala and Uralda don't even seem to be closely related to Eiritha, but descend from Esrola.

[David Scott]

1 hour ago, Byll said:

Things have changed substantially. In the No-longer-canon 'Thunder Rebels', the heard mothers of the Orlanthi, Entra, Nevala and Uralda don't even seem to be closely related to Eiritha, but descend from Esrola.

Have a more up to date look at Uralda in Heortling Mythology and Sartar KoH. To me she's actually Eiritha or more likely one of Eiritha's daughters (to the Praxians). Perhaps the Protectress of the Pol-joni is Uralda (in fact I'm almost certain of this). I'd have to bring @Jeff in on this for a clearer answer, but certainly the Esrolians think she's the Herd Mother (in the Gloranthan Source book).

Some of her myths are a retelling of Storm Bull & his sons.

[jeffjerwin]

56 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Have a more up to date look at Uralda in Heortling Mythology and Sartar KoH. To me she's actually Eiritha or more likely one of Eiritha's daughters (to the Praxians). Perhaps the Protectress of the Pol-joni is Uralda (in fact I'm almost certain of this). I'd have to bring @Jeff in on this for a clearer answer, but certainly the Esrolians think she's the Herd Mother (in the Gloranthan Source book).

Some of her myths are a retelling of Storm Bull & his sons.

It's seems likely that Eir-, Ur-, and thus Eir-itha, Ur-alda, Ur-ox all have some sort of Theyalan/God-time root word for cow/cattle (in the RW, no doubt connected to Auroch); hence their identities are all presumably intertwined. There is, of course, no major problem with variant fathers, though mothers is another issue.

[Tindalos]

3 hours ago, Byll said:

Things have changed substantially. In the No-longer-canon 'Thunder Rebels', the heard mothers of the Orlanthi, Entra, Nevala and Uralda don't even seem to be closely related to Eiritha, but descend from Esrola.

Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes mentiones Eiritha as the Cow Mother (p241), making it likely that the Orlanthi view her as Uralda. That's certainly the view taken in King of Dragon Pass as well.

They both are the wife of Urox after all.

7 hours ago, David Scott said:

Sure, he’s a minor god of butchers. Have a look at the Glorantha Sourcebook page 107. He’s Orlanth’s nephew. That’s why when the Theylan’s arrive in Prax in 35ST they were welcomed.

I do wonder if there's some connection here to the old (and likely no longer canon) Orlanthi subcult of Orolmarn. There's a myth about him engaging in a contest with the lord of beasts, wagering their own children. This being how Orlanth won all the useful animals for the Vingkotlings, only losing in the contest that sent the beastmen away.

If the lord of beasts was Storm Bull, then one of his sons would be Waha, which would likely strengthen that subcult's magic.

[David Scott]

@g33k asked

Saw the thread-tag... just had to add:

 

... and to keep it Gloranthan... does anyone know if figs are canon in Glorantha?   And if so, do they have any special standing in any cult, sacred to a Goddess or important in a ritual, etc?     Figs were of course a staple of the ancient mediterranean

@Iskallor mentioned Fig Lane in his adari.

i have figs growing around the Paps by the Oasis Folk. I think they grow the Natal Fig as it has fruit and can be harvested for barkcloth. This material is ideal for making patterns and designs in itself. Aldrya priestesses wear it. It’s made possible as this fig is supported by one of the old agricultural spirits at the Paps. I suspect a few oases grow them, with most have one or two. I suspect the fruit isn’t too tasty but herd animals love it. 

[Noita]

What weapons can you carry openly in Pavis?

In the original book it was just pole arms, bows and metal armour that were forbidden. But then it seems to be only weapon masters who can openly carry their weapon.

[David Scott]

1 hour ago, Iskallor said:

What weapons can you carry openly in Pavis?

In the original book it was just pole arms, bows and metal armour that were forbidden. But then it seems to be only weapon masters who can openly carry their weapon.

What are your references?

[Joerg]

Pavis and Big Rubble p. 110, the Lunar Guard at the Northern Gate (or if you use the boxed set, in the players' guide to the city, Welcome to the City.

HQ Pavis p. 283 expands the original text by some more narrative and drops the list of prohibited items for a stricter "weapons only for registered weapon-masters" rule.

Quote

Belkades: “Now, gentlemen, I cannot stress too strongly our intolerance for violence and outlawry in the city. Weapons are not to be worn on the streets unless you belong to the city’s Weaponmasters Guild. The Lunar guard is quite capable of handling any disturbance and citizens are quick to summon the guard to prevent any dangerous or illegal behavior. The citizens of New Pavis are proud of the peace and security of their home, and are quick to protect it. This is not just another frontier town, and it is wise to remember this.”

The bold text (my emphasis) was inserted in the dialogue bit from the Pavis Box. No fiddling around with peace bands and similar stuff as per the RQ2 supplement and its table, just a plain "no weapons" policy. (You can almost hear the NRA protests...) So basically adventurers on the way to the Rubble will have to use a carry-bag or similar to bring their armament to the city limits where they may don them under the eyes of the Lunar guards.

And Pavis is a place that welcomes adventurers (or at least their money, having made an industry out of the Rubble expeditions), unlike most other places. All of this is the consequence of Lunar occupation, of course, and it is quite possible that the Sartarite city laws (which used to apply to New Pavis as well) were a lot more redneck and laissez-faire in their stance towards weapons. (Lawspeakers may have been among the loudest dissatisfied voices, with their chance to participate in a weregeld settlement so sadly diminished.)

 

I sort of wonder how normal the presence of a bored spear-and-shield wielding guard at ornamental positions will be both under Lunar and under Sartarite regimes. Both chiefs and officers impress by the number and equipment of their bodyguards, but that doesn't necessarily mean that there are living statues under arms distributed all over the place. Gate guards yes, at some state of readiness, but guards flanking the entrances to official buildings?

 

[Noita]

On 3/8/2018 at 12:15 PM, David Scott said:

What are your references?

I shall send you my CV...

Joerg covered it.

Edited March 9, 2018 by Iskallor

[David Scott]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

HQ Pavis p. 283 expands the original text by some more narrative and drops the list of prohibited items for a stricter "weapons only for registered weapon-masters" rule.

Don’t forget the Freelance Adventurer Registration Form:

Quote

This form testifies that the person hereon described has registered in good faith with the Friends of Prax Military as an : Adventurer, Mercenary, Bodyguard, Houseguard. He or she is entitled to bear arms in the pursuance of his or her duties.

 

[Joerg]

47 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Don’t forget the Freelance Adventurer Registration Form:

Yeah. Isn't it typical that you aren't told about this upon entry into the city?

[Noita]

20 hours ago, David Scott said:

Don’t forget the Freelance Adventurer Registration Form:

 

Is that a form in the books?

[David Scott]

It's in the original box, Pavis and Big Rubble (MD) but not Pavis GtA.

[M Helsdon]

For something boring (logistics) I've been attempting to define how much meat Praxian animals (and others) provide. Any comments?

	Living Weight (lbs.)	Edible Meat (lbs.)
Bison	1100-2000	615-1100
Bolo-Lizard	300-500	140-230
Herd Man	145	50-65
High Llama	1500-2000	400-600
Horse	900-1300	400-585
Impala	150-200	60-110
Ostrich	250-350	130-180
Ox	800-2000	488-1220
Pig	90-150	67-112
Sable	800-1000	400-500
Sheep	66-100	36-55
Tusker	900	400-495
Zebra	770-990	400-580

[jeffjerwin]

1 hour ago, M Helsdon said:

For something boring (logistics) I've been attempting to define how much meat Praxian animals (and others) provide. Any comments?

	Living Weight (lbs.)	Edible Meat (lbs.)
Bison	1100-2000	615-1100
Bolo-Lizard	300-500	140-230
Herd Man	145	50-65
High Llama	1500-2000	400-600
Horse	900-1300	400-585
Impala	150-200	60-110
Ostrich	250-350	130-180
Ox	800-2000	488-1220
Pig	90-150	67-112
Sable	800-1000	400-500
Sheep	66-100	36-55
Tusker	900	400-495
Zebra	770-990	400-580

A tentative comment: total calories may be important as well: Tusker lard is probably going to go further than ostrich meat (which, if like chicken, has about 2/3rds the calories), even more than weight would indicate. Pork and beef have a similar number of calories; mutton has more calories than either (250 versus 200 than beef for 3 oz. of meat).