Prax and the thousand questions about the place.

[Oracle]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

...

2. He's dead.

...

 

 

59 minutes ago, svensson said:

...

2. I didn't know he died. Still, the story must be interesting. He wasn't a bad boss in the RQ2 game I played in.

...

Exactly. So the question is how and when.

1 hour ago, svensson said:

...

3. ... I haven't gotten the Bestiary yet, to I'll take your word for it on the Agimori [extra points for character generation info ]. ...

It's with the description in the Bestiary.

[David Scott]

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

So there are termites or some equivalent in the Chaparral?

Maybe, perhaps, could be, it's level of detail that doesn't really need filling out IMO.

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

What happens to them at the Paps?

They hang out like sacred cows

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

Is the Sacred Ground populated by such unclaimed herds?

A few, most are the animal entourage of the rare intelligent herd beasts, most are priestesses of Eiritha or Khans of Waha.

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

Hmm. If one would find an unclaimed herdman herd, my proposal for getting adoptees for a new tribe might be easier.

Currently all "wild" herdmen are under the protection of the Most Respected Elder, a morokanth. However that would be part of the adventure.

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

So no attempt to contact the lost ancestors of those tribes?

depends what you mean by lost ancestors, these are the ancestors. 

[David Scott]

2 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Moreover, this might be something your average Praxian takes for granted, or has never really thought about at all. Animals do what they do, and it doesn't really require lots of concern. You might get laughed at or given strange looks if you brought it up to them.

This really what it's all about.

I'd certainly recommend looking at other animist cultures as well as the amazon. The amazon has it's own spiritual flavour, compare to Siberian, transpolar culture, australian, etc.

[Joerg]

4 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

EDIT: I went a bit too long here, pardon the indulgence.

Thanks for indulging. rather.

4 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

In terms of literature on Amazonian animism, at least - the widespread fear of cannibalism is tied into this. If everything in nature is sapient and related, then everything you eat is essentially an act of cannibalism.

That's what my purely rational observation of the animist world view has led me to believe, too. But then, Human wasn't born as a hunter, he needed to be taught to hunt (and later even butcher his herd kin) in Praxian myth.

4 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

The implication is that, yes, everything is intelligent - but it's not the same kind of intelligence.

Is it really a different form of personhood, or is it native destiny of the carnivores (and carnivorous omnivores) vs. cultural acquisition of killing for life?

Sorry that I ignore all the Amazon jungle context, but this is the Prax thread.

We know about the log walkers from Wendaria and their Golden Age hunting that allowed the creatures they had hunted with their version of the Peaceful Cut  (which involved paintin the likeness of the beast onto a wall, to give it a temporary home until the next morning, or otherwise a place to re-emerge, accepting the painting as its new manifestation in tomorrow's reality). Basically the same deal Thor gets when slaughtering one of the billy goats drawing his chariot (Thor needs to collect all the bones undamaged inside the hide to re-awaken his beast).

In Golden Age Wendaria, there would have been carnivorous beasts, too. The beast myths (e.g. the Fiwan witnesses of Earthmaker's Creation) are from all types of beasts, probably to the chagrin of God Learner propoinents of an universal elemental progression. (But then the beast progeny matrix presented in Anaxial's Roster comes up with a quite unexpected 5 by eight table.)

The coming of Death ended that..Beasts that got hunted stayed dead, and needed to be slowly reborn rather than re-emering after a short period of absence.

This would have affected all hunters, whether beasts or humans. And human hunters had to shft their efforts from greeting the slain beasts back into life the next morning to ensuring their safe passage into the spirit world, from where they could be born again.

Now to the question at hand - was this rebirth in a new generation rather than the return to their old self in a reconstituted body the ancient way that happened to all beasts eaten by other beasts, or did they have their equivalent of invisible villages, shamans etc. to get this going? Is this what the oriastic and bloody Wild Temple rites which have both beastmen and ordinary-appearing beasts participating are about? Did Genert's Garden have a version of this?

Looking through the cult skills, I notice that neither Telmori nor Yinkini receive Peaceful Cut, while Foundchild, Odayla and Waha do. This might mean that all children of Fralar are exempt from this rite, possibly having it as an innate ability. Odayla, although a bear god, doesn't seem to have a claim on Fralar as his ancestor (any more). Yinkin does, despite his choice to stand with his maternal half-brother rather than his paternal ones.

The Telmori have no need for Foundchild or an equivalent for Brother Dog, Telmor fills all these needs. Yinkin is part of a much more complex environment, but either he doesn't need anything like this, either, or he just doesn't care. I am curious how this will turn out for the Basmoli Berserks when they get their RQG treatment. The only other Hsunchen in the region (Harrek) is long past such considerations.

I do note that it was Teknor who ate the sun, without any reard for its return.

Baboons don't have Peaceful Cut, either. But then neither do Men-and-a-Half, who do have Foundchild as one of their cult options.

Do Praxians who worship Daka Fal or Storm Bull get Peaceful Cut? Does Lay Membership convey this skill?

4 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Anyway, to cut a long story short - it is entirely possible that in the Praxian worldview, the animal members of the Covenant of Waha* are seen as naturally conducting a Peaceful Cut (or bite) when eating flesh.

Not so fast... I don't think that there are carnovorous beasts that are part of the Covenant. The carnivore beasts had to adapt along with Foundchild in the Lesser Darkness, not along with the Beast Riders at the end of the Greater Darkness.

Eiritha still is "in" the compact of the hunted, along with Frog Woman and probably a number of other spirits. The Covenant is unusual in making her offspring (humans, Morokanth) part of the Eaters rather than the hunted/eaten.

4 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Moreover, this might be something your average Praxian takes for granted, or has never really thought about at all. Animals do what they do, and it doesn't really require lots of concern. You might get laughed at or given strange looks if you brought it up to them. A shaman would perhaps consider it more carefully, though, or even be surprised that you have insight into secret/privileged lore. It's like going up to a medieval Christian farmer and asking him what happens to an animal after death. Who cares, you know? Ask the priest - the farmer is busy. So you go asking the priest, and he gets upset because your question might be taken for implying heathenry or heresy, or he may explain to you how souls were doled out during the creation of the world, or whatever.

True. This is a question to (and from) people on the track of holiness, e.g. assistant shamans. I don't think it takes Enlightenment to arrive at such questions, rather that people who have such thoughts volunteer themselves for religious duties.

4 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

(*It's my understanding that it is the membership in the Covenant that dictates whether someone is a relevant partner to the Peaceful Cut, whether as cutter or cut. If bugs aren't a part of the Covenant, a question over whether they need to the Peaceful Cut is rendered moot. I could be wrong, of course. It might apply to every living animal. Since Votanki also use it(?) it might be universal for the animist groups in Glorantha.)

I would differentiate between pastoralists slaughtering a herd beast from their herds (Covenant, whether raided from other tribes or beasts from their own tribe) or hunters killing wild prey (which may be unaligned Eirithan beasts, too, like e.g. wild zebras).

[David Scott]

17 hours ago, Oracle said:

Exactly. So the question is how and when.

He dies however you want, Ronegarth overwhelmed by Praxian raiders, knife in the back double-crossed by a guide on a secret route out, assassinated by those who think he will tell secrets to Argrath, adventures seeking revenge, strangled in the bath by a servant. Likely his body is never found, so in true storytelling style is he really dead. It's your game.

Edited April 12, 2019 by David Scott

[David Scott]

5 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Baboons don't have Peaceful Cut, either. But then neither do Men-and-a-Half, who do have Foundchild as one of their cult options.

Do Praxians who worship Daka Fal or Storm Bull get Peaceful Cut? Does Lay Membership convey this skill?

Everyone knows the peaceful cut at 10% (+/- bonus), it's just how good you are at doing it. Cults and cultures teach how to be better at it. RQG page  181. Waha expects everyone to be better than foreigners at it. 

Even in our modern culture most people have it at 10%. Most can prepare meat to a certain level and say "grace" (including other cultural versions such as halal & kosher slaughter). In my youth I worked as an assistant butcher, i suspect my level is a bit higher. Even at 5% most could hack the leg off a cow or sheep and cook it over a fire. Might not look pretty but would likely be tasty.

[Joerg]

Termites in Prax:

12 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Maybe, perhaps, could be, it's level of detail that doesn't really need filling out IMO.

I think that their presence or absence does make a great difference in the amount of food available to herd men, frogs, hyenas, birds of various kinds (that want something else than bluebottle flies). Termite presence also changes the landscape.

There are no other grasslands to be inhabited by termites than on Genertela. I don't think that the Pamaltelan herbs of the veldt would support termites. (You can still get the type that infests dead wood near forests or where humans build with timber.)

Bluebottle flies may have entered Prax only alongside the Pol Joni and their herds.

The impoverished ecology of Prax and the Wastes has a few weird consequences.

Take for instance fuel for campfires. The Beast Rider tribes have a ready source of fuel dropping out of the behinds of their herd beasts. How much of that do they collect? What happens to the droppings they don't collect, provided they don't collect all? This is where the insect population of Prax comes in. Are there scarabs? We know that the bogs do support teeming insect life, with giant insects around Corflu. What about the drier parts of Prax and the Wastes?

What do the Men-and-a-Half use for fuel, and can they get more flame out of fuel than the Beast Riders, or do they have to go on gathering expeditions near Beast Rider herds? Do they even trade for fuel with the Beast Riders? They don't appear to raid cattle (they are absent from "Khan of Khans", too).

What Praxian (or other) food do bachelor newtlings consume? Can they feed only in the Praxian wetlands?

 

12 minutes ago, David Scott said:

depends what you mean by lost ancestors, these are the ancestors. 

By "lost ancestors" I mean some of the past members of these tribes who might become available to their Axis Mundi, other than just the heroquesters and their beasts from Godtime. The Heroquesters could have contacted some of them in Godtime, too.

[Joerg]

2 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Everyone knows the peaceful cut at 10% (+/- bonus), it's just how good you are at doing it. Cults and cultures teach how to be better at it. RQG page  181. Waha expects everyone to be better than foreigners at it. 

Even in our modern culture most people have it at 10%. Most can prepare meat to a certain level and say "grace" (including other cultural versions such as halal & kosher slaughter). In my youth I worked as an assistant butcher, i suspect my level is a bit higher. Even at 5% most could hack the leg off a cow or sheep and cook it over a fire. Might not look pretty but would likely be tasty.

I am fairly trained in gutting and even filleting marine fish and might be able to transfer that experience to other vertebrates, but I suppose I would suck big time at giving the proper grace right now. I have no idea how much this Peaceful Cut business applies to fishing, anyway, although it will be useful for Zola Fel river folk and Pelaskites to know. While it is good praxis to cut the fish so it can bleed out, that doesn't exactly kill them. Usually you just stun them badly by hitting their head with or against some wood before applying the cut, with a good chance that the stun is permanent.

 

[Erol of Backford]

Does anyone have a source for the PAVIS: GATEWAY TO ADVENTURE book? Its only on line for like $200~300...

A PDF would be great...

Looking for Sog's Ruins info...

Thanks in advance.

[Erol of Backford]

http://www.glorantha.com/forums/topic/sogs-ruins/

This link may have held great info but its gone bad over time... Thanks again all!

[jajagappa]

29 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

Does anyone have a source for the PAVIS: GATEWAY TO ADVENTURE book? Its only on line for like $200~300...

A PDF would be great...

Looking for Sog's Ruins info...

Not available until it is reprinted under the QuestWorlds branding.

As for Sog's Ruins, you won't find anything about it in that work.  The only reference to Sog's Ruins is in regards to Ankubi Broo-stalker, which was carried forward from Borderlands (which you can get in pdf).  It simply notes:  "Ankubi Broo-stalker is a loner who gained a reputation among the men-and-a-half and among the Storm Bull cult in Prax by tracking and destroying a small raiding party of broos who had kidnapped some children for sacrifice in Sog’s Ruins. He brought the captives back alive."

[David Scott]

7 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

http://www.glorantha.com/forums/topic/sogs-ruins/

This link may have held great info but its gone bad over time... Thanks again all!

You mean this one: 

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/wp-content/uploads/www.glorantha.com-forums/www.glorantha.com/forums/topic/sogs-ruins/index.html

Note that some of the content on the Well of Daliath is not integrated into the search function: You can use Google's site search to cover it:

https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Awellofdaliath.chaosium.com&oq=site%3Awellofdaliath.chaosium.com

The sites are:

• Old Glorantha.com Forums (2013-2016)
• MOB’s old website (1999-2000)

[Erol of Backford]

On 3/14/2022 at 8:43 PM, jajagappa said:

As for Sog's Ruins, you won't find anything about it in that work.  The only reference to Sog's Ruins is in regards to Ankubi Broo-stalker, which was carried forward from Borderlands (which you can get in pdf).  It simply notes:  "Ankubi Broo-stalker is a loner who gained a reputation among the men-and-a-half and among the Storm Bull cult in Prax by tracking and destroying a small raiding party of broos who had kidnapped some children for sacrifice in Sog’s Ruins. He brought the captives back alive."

I was also looking for the Foroda which was to have a good section in the PAVIS: GATEWAY TO ADVENTURE book? 

I do love this guy Ankubi and I have the "Runequest Adventure" with him in it, The Block issue. My gut was to take the old D&D Module I1 and use it as a basis for Sog's Ruins. Possibly some Slarges somehow came ashore shipwrecked a long time ago and became chaotic (or not), another faction could be Baboons and another third mutated humanoid snakes. Who knows there could be some Thanatari cultists in there as well? Ultor had a similar idea in another post, to place The Caverns of Thracia in Glorantha. The idea is that the Godlearner Thanrax the Fair founded a port near Sog's Ruins called Thanracia, which was cut off by the Closing and then the descendants of the God-Learners turned to Thanatar worship. Add in an undead Dragonewt priest and a pissed-off Minotaur lord and you have something Gloranthan... good on Ultor!

I am just speculating that there must be a shire or altar to Thed if the Broo were going there to sacrifice some children and some Thanatars as well... A Minotaur Lord with a snake body, even better.

Curious what others have done with Sog's Ruins?

I did review the review the links you posted Mr. Scott, thank you!

 

[Jose]

Hi, Jeff just posted in Facebook that praxians can find many powerful  spirits/gods (except earth-fertility gods) in the wastes that can lead them to revelations, so what kind of spiritual beings survived?. Are they story-hooks? Whatever you feel necessary for your campaign? Or maybe there are arquetypes that exists in other places but are waiting to be rediscovered in prax/wastes? 

[David Scott]

41 minutes ago, Jose said:

Hi, Jeff just posted in Facebook that praxians can find many powerful  spirits/gods (except earth-fertility gods) in the wastes that can lead them to revelations, so what kind of spiritual beings survived?. Are they story-hooks? Whatever you feel necessary for your campaign? Or maybe there are arquetypes that exists in other places but are waiting to be rediscovered in prax/wastes? 

Given that animism defines everything as having a spirit (with shamanism being methods of working with them), everything out there has a spirit. Plant's, animals, rocks, spirit vortices that manifest in the middle worlds, the serpents of the Wastes, evert feature will have a spirit. Use the Guide as a starting point. Remember that the Wastes, especially around the Krjalki Bog were Genert's Garden.

[Jeff]

Just now, David Scott said:

Given that animism defines everything as having a spirit (with shamanism being methods of working with them), everything out there has a spirit. Plant's, animals, rocks, spirit vortices that manifest in the middle worlds, the serpents of the Wastes, evert feature will have a spirit. Use the Guide as a starting point. Remember that the Wastes, especially around the Krjalki Bog were Genert's Garden.

Remember a lot of the powerful entities out in the Wastes are things that were not tamed or defeated by Waha. Some are outright hostile towards mortals, others are powerful things that are broken shards of the former Golden Age. Some are alien, others are sad or angry, hungry, or long-forgotten. Like anytime you walk alone through the wild desert.

[David Scott]

6 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Remember a lot of the powerful entities out in the Wastes are things that were not tamed or defeated by Waha. Some are outright hostile towards mortals, others are powerful things that are broken shards of the former Golden Age. Some are alien, others are sad or angry, hungry, or long-forgotten. Like anytime you walk alone through the wild desert.

I'd add not tamed or defeated by any Praxian deities. 

[Jose]

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

I'd add not tamed or defeated by any Praxian deities. 

Was the white bull one of them? 

[JRE]

I would say the White Bull is a Praxian deity, or a mask / son / fragment of one, Storm Bull. 

As a Secret group, nobody should know much of the special relationship, but for me it is a Praxian spirit, not a desert one.

Just channeling my conspiracy theorist, truestone is whitish, so what if it has nothing to do with albino animals, and it is the truestone purified bull, the perfect weapon against Chaos? What do the Storm Bull Khans do with all those truestone pieces chipped from the block?

[David Scott]

14 hours ago, Jose said:

Was the white bull one of them? 

No. the White Bull is a praxian spirit that has had previous adherents, they were just not as successful in rallying the tribes together. It could be argued that the historical Jaldon (before he died) was a member of its spirit cult.

[David Scott]

6 minutes ago, JRE said:

What do the Storm Bull Khans do with all those truestone pieces chipped from the block?

Any loose Truestone is put back on top of the block by the helpful griffins to keep the weight pining the Devil down. Anyone found chipping truestone from the Block (a great temple Storm Bull temple) would be dealt with appropriately. 

[kalidor]

Just watching Lawrence of Arabia. I find it inspiring for prax. 

[Geoff R Evil]

On 11/2/2016 at 5:46 PM, David Scott said:

Basically no, it's not the Way of Waha. In my mind it's basically kinslaying - don't forget the animals are kin. If you want to set it up as the central core of an adventure - that's fine as this kind of thing is in the realm of story telling. Waha the Raider is the task of Waha that sets this up for the tribes of the Covenent. Raid others, take their beasts, sacrifice them to Eiritha, return their souls to the Great Herd so that they may be reborn and eat well. In times of hardship, eat your own, but not do not raid your own people. There is no honour in that. Also bear in mind that herds are dowery. You need to capture enough other beasts to show your worth. If you steal your own herd beasts, your Mother and Grandmother will not accept them. They did not rear them, they are worthless. This also points to why the Pol-Joni are such a good buffer on the edges of Prax - they don't raid Sartar for cattle, it's the same problem.

Bandits and outlaws and those not of the Covenent ignore these rules, they are not bound by the Way of Waha. 

ooh a Pol Joni reference!  Been scanning the discussion for this sort of thing.  I am about to start a campaign in 1625 for Pol Joni tribal members, I have been collating everything i can and filling in what seems to be a lot of gaps as to their history.  In the lunar vs Prax battles they are mostly not mentioned because they have not aligned with the lunars because they are Orlanthi, and not with praxians as they are despised.  It feels to me like there is a wealth of roleplaying potential in that squeezed middle - especially as the lunars are kicked out, Orlanth is in ascendence in Northern and NW Prax and Sartar, yet the praxians are too.  I too plan to use their Sartar buffer status constructively for players, probably linking up with the friendly zebra riders and enabling trade across from pavis to sartar, maybe with a bit of Zola Fel interaction too, to open up trade to the sea.  long term thinking still half baked and lots will be led by character interests.

I have been mulling an end game heroquest once the chars get up that high that somehow gets their tribe formally accepted by Waha in the same way Eiritha has somewhat accepted them.  That means getting horse riding accepted and cattle eating too.  Probably several heroquests!  I have been playing with the idea that Hippogriff was originally native to Prax and if we can get back to that time, we can prove horses are native and then move them towards acceptance in the great cmpromise.  Just general thinking right now...thoughts and ideas please

[David Scott]

1 minute ago, Geoff R Evil said:

ooh a Pol Joni reference!  Been scanning the discussion for this sort of thing.  I am about to start a campaign in 1625 for Pol Joni tribal members, I have been collating everything i can and filling in what seems to be a lot of gaps as to their history.  In the lunar vs Prax battles they are mostly not mentioned because they have not aligned with the lunars because they are Orlanthi, and not with praxians as they are despised.  It feels to me like there is a wealth of roleplaying potential in that squeezed middle - especially as the lunars are kicked out, Orlanth is in ascendence in Northern and NW Prax and Sartar, yet the praxians are too.  I too plan to use their Sartar buffer status constructively for players, probably linking up with the friendly zebra riders and enabling trade across from pavis to sartar, maybe with a bit of Zola Fel interaction too, to open up trade to the sea.  long term thinking still half baked and lots will be led by character interests.

I have been mulling an end game heroquest once the chars get up that high that somehow gets their tribe formally accepted by Waha in the same way Eiritha has somewhat accepted them.  That means getting horse riding accepted and cattle eating too.  Probably several heroquests!  I have been playing with the idea that Hippogriff was originally native to Prax and if we can get back to that time, we can prove horses are native and then move them towards acceptance in the great cmpromise.  Just general thinking right now...thoughts and ideas please

You might find Les Enfants de la Flamme helpful:

https://www.philibertnet.com/fr/studio-deadcrows/117723-runequest-les-enfants-de-la-flamme-version-pdf-2100000912759.html

It's an Dundelos adventure book with Pol-Joni tie-ins.

[radmonger]

1 hour ago, Geoff R Evil said:

 Just general thinking right now...thoughts and ideas please

Remember to point out to your players that one possible outcome of that quest is the creation of a new tribe of equine morokanth. 

Hippogriffs work quite well for that; they probably already eat people. And would eat them more if not for the existence of bows and spears.

Relevant: