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Iskallor

Prax and the thousand questions about the place.

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2 hours ago, D said:

I was just curious to see if she she could be worshipped by nomads for her anti horse magic, but her connection to the Red Goddess might be an issue :)

Don't mention her to Amara.

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On ‎14‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 5:35 AM, Darius West said:

Lol, planning a holiday are you?  Definitely book in with Thurkan Clubfoot at the Lokarnos temple.  For a small donation he can arrange Sun County Travel papers and even get you booked into accommodation at Eiskolli which is the closest "major" settlement near the Painted Wall.  Shamans can also make their own travel arrangements through the intercession of the Larnste spirit subcult of Trivago Wheelpincher. :)

Also remember how hard it is to get bookings at this time of year, and try to complete your arrangements in advance.  I would definitely not consider a trip out there except in Sea Season.  Fire Season is out of the question and may actually get dangerous, not to mention that Eiskolli's accommodation is booked solid around the Yelmalio high holy day, but you might be lucky if everyone has gone to the Sun Dome to celebrate.

Merry Sacred Time.

3a6525dd9ede1b6f31f7fc10fd665399.jpg

My friends went to the Painted Wall, and all I got was a spider fetish that bites your finger off if you pick it up wrong

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What would the Sartar settlers of Pavis county ride? Zebras or one of the many herd beasts of Prax? A mix? They each have their advantages.

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Given that the Pol-Joni are in this mix too, and the armistice of Prax keeps the nomads out of the valley. I think horses are common.  popularity rankings: 

Pre 1610

  1. Bison/high llamas/sables/zebras in equal amounts
  2. pol-Joni horses

1610-1625

  1. Pol-Joni horses
  2. Sables - the most accessible in numbers given the occupation.
  3. Zebras
  4. high llamas
  5. Bison - uncommon due to the bison tribes defeat and outlawery. 

After 1625

  1. Bison
  2. pol-Joni horses
  3. high llamas
  4. zebras
Edited by David Scott
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13 minutes ago, Iskallor said:

So if someone was riding a Pol Joni horse and not a Pol Joni clansperson would they be safe amongst the Nomads? 

Given the whole whole horse thing is complex as the pol Joni are an accepted tribe at the paps, that's a complex answer. A better question is what if a non-Praxian was riding a Praxian beast, would they be safe. The answer depends entirely on the situation. Most of the Praxians will think - dinner, are we outnumbered, what can we take. In the case of pol Joni horses, is it worth attacking them, there's no dinner or glory option. Outlander horses aren't nearly as good a prize, not so well adapted. 

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I wonder about farming in Prax and the Wastes.

Ok, so the very soil of the place was so damaged in the battles against Chaos that it can support maybe 20 types of plant. And cultivated grains most likely are NOT among these. And you could add any amount of water, the fertility won't go up beyond what the soil offers.

But then we find farmers in the Zola Fel Valley and the Oases, growing crops that shouldn't on a soil as depleted as what I described above.

Ok, in the Zola Fel valley we might see deposits from outside of the former Genert's Garden, providing the Praxian soil with a certain component of undepleted soil. No such luck at the Oases, though.

Are all of these places especially blessed by Eiritha?

 

Edit: inserted a very significant negation I somehow missed when posting...

Edited by Joerg

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7 minutes ago, Joerg said:

 

Are all of these places especially blessed by Eiritha?

Eiritha isn't a crop goddess.  I would assume Zola Fel is responsible for the blessing.

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11 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Are all of these places especially blessed by Eiritha?

Farming in the Pavis and Sun Counties is reliant upon a relationship with Zola Fel and his children? The bounty of farms in Sun County is reliant upon the Count's relationship with Kinope.  Perhaps there are similar rituals in Pavis County?

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Indeed - it looks as if it is the water entities (the oasis spirits, or Zola Fel) who bring the fertility to a level where farming gets possible. And where Ernalda has a chance to support farming (in case of the Zola Fel Valley farmers).

Heler's rains have no chance to improve fertility on a hard-packed and hydrophobic ground, causing flash floods instead, but the situation might be different on tilled land.

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14 hours ago, Joerg said:

Ok, so the very soil of the place was so damaged in the battles against Chaos that it can support maybe 20 types of plant. And cultivated grains most likely are NOT among these. And you could add any amount of water, the fertility won't go up beyond what the soil offers.

Going back to the Great Darkness, the whole of Genert's Garden was breaking apart - actually separating and floating off. Such was the death of Genert that the very land was flying apart. This is key in Waha's myths. He went and tied all the parts back together and grandmother Spider pulled the net tight and everything (nearly) was pulled back together at the dawn.

One of the parts that never broke away was Prax. It had better cohesion as it had the Great temple that is Eiritha, but it also had Zola Fel Zola Fel actively prevented Prax from breaking up he was at the edge of the void. The rest of the Wastes broke apart and drifted away, some never to be found again. They occasionally reappear as the Hidden Greens, their affinity with the land has never been lost and they struggle to reattach themselves. Occasionally a Khan of Waha succeeds and they rejoin the whole. There are clearly many less Hidden Greens than their once were. Looking at the "Catchment map" - these aren't so much catchents but weak water spirit demesnes. These mark the major chinks of the Wastes that were reassembled. I've got some idea in my head that once the powers of the Earth are weakened so much that that just the physical remains, that Water can hold it together. Sort of a last stand by Seolinthur's children. Likewise the Wicked Writher has a role in this due to the large number of these demesnes that it links together.

Looking closer at the damage to the fertility, it's not just one thing:

The death of Tada - Tada was Genert's fertility by the looks of it. Tada's Loincloth which holds the fertility of Genert's Garden was lost before the Dawn. Likely in a Hidden Green or in another exciting plot hook.

The death of Genert, the premier land god causing the land to fracture.

Physical damage - smashing (big fights), consuming (Storm Bull, Oakfed, Dark Eater), Transmutation (Copper sands, etc).

Introduction of Chaos into the place - mixing it all up.

The fertility is not only absent overall, but what struggles to exist is in spots - Prax as it was never broken, the oases in the Wastes form tiny pieces of fertility struggling to help, as do the serpents. There is clearly a relationship between these tiny water spots and Ernalda. She's able to flourish abet only in these tiny spots.

Here's the Demesnes map for reference (it's posted elsewhere on this site, this may be more up to date, but still unfinished).

Water.png

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Thanks for clearing this up, David. I think something like this explanation is needed when discussing the (lack of) ecology of the Wastelands.

I like the concept of great khans tying back hidden greens into the normal structure of the Wastelands. This also gives the Desert Trackers subcult of Issaries a whole different importance. Hyena skins are just a weak side issue.

What I am still mostly unclear about is the difference between the Wastelands north and south of the Snowline. Even the False Plenty of the Pentan grasslands appears to be a lot better than most grazings the Wastes have to offer.

Is it possible that Tada's importance was limited to the southern part, while someone or something else was responsible in the north?

Or was it the aldryami presence (both in Prax and in Pent) that reduced the devastations of the Gods War? Most of the aldryami perished, either in the Gray Age (Oakfed in Prax) or in the Dawn Age (the forest of treestumps in northwestern Pent, for instance).

But then the Eternal Battle has Elf Lords, too.

Does the continued presence of the battle in Prax and nearby wastes hinder fertility a bit more than if it was left in peace?

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4 hours ago, Joerg said:

What I am still mostly unclear about is the difference between the Wastelands north and south of the Snowline. Even the False Plenty of the Pentan grasslands appears to be a lot better than most grazings the Wastes have to offer.

Is it possible that Tada's importance was limited to the southern part, while someone or something else was responsible in the north?

At the moment my thoughts are that Pent has a land goddess.

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

Does the continued presence of the battle in Prax and nearby wastes hinder fertility a bit more than if it was left in peace?

Yes, Storm Bull is a huge problem, the Raging Storm batters the land to keep the chaos down. Storm Bull has no water aspect, so heler never really gets beyond Vultures County.

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17 hours ago, David Scott said:

At the moment my thoughts are that Pent has a land goddess.

Yes, Storm Bull is a huge problem, the Raging Storm batters the land to keep the chaos down. Storm Bull has no water aspect, so heler never really gets beyond Vultures County.

Great explanation David! thanks! your insights in this matter are great. Also your insights about the role played by water spirits holding together these places when the earth is weak are great.

Edited by kalidor

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41 minutes ago, kalidor said:

Great explanation David! thanks! your insights in this matter are great. Also your insights about the role played by water spirits holding together these places when the earth is weak are great.

It's why the Wicked Writher rites are so important, in my game at least. The khan uses it to bring fertility to the area and for the clan for the next year.

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On 3/17/2017 at 6:53 PM, David Scott said:

At the moment my thoughts are that Pent has a land goddess.

Penta used to be the land goddes of Pent, I think, but I can't remember where I read that.

The lands around the Wastelands/Prax are bursting with fertility as their fertility wasn't blasted by Chaos or burnt away by Oakfed. Wastelands/Prax is a very special case in Glorantha as it is an unnaturally infertile place.

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14 hours ago, soltakss said:

Penta used to be the land goddes of Pent, I think, but I can't remember where I read that.

I can't find a reference anywhere to this, other than the obvious Penta Goldbreath.

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On 17/03/2017 at 6:53 PM, David Scott said:

At the moment my thoughts are that Pent has a land goddess.

It may be simpler than I thought. It's likely to be Ernalda and or Aldrya. I think Pent and the surrounding lands were out of the blast radius. So Ernalda and Aldrya were largely unaffected. The Pentan religion is solar / Storm in format, so it's likely Ernalda is a woman's goddess here. There's no grain / land goddess specifically as grassland isn't a grain. 

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1 hour ago, hkokko said:

Do we have timeline for the Prax book/s

Not yet. A combination of health, family and work has slowed progress down completely. The biggest section I'm working on is the history. I'm currently looking at Sheng's Celestial Empire. There's some great stuff that I'm investigating:

1361 The tribes submit to Sheng

1361-1363 Kralorela campaign 1362, "a great horde of horse and animal barbarians" (failed)

1375, the Great Army of Sheng Seleris entered the Lunar Heartland, and for the next 85 years this barbarian demigod and his nomad hordes held most of the Heartland in thrall

1376 - envoys from a far off land called Tarsh, escorted by magicians and guards bedecked as messengers from the gods, approached tribes in Prax. The initial contact was with Sable peoples, but High Llama and Bison folk eventually came as well. The Tarsh envoys were hiring mercenaries to fight off the horse mercenaries who had penetrated from the north. They offered plunder and training in exchange for nomad aid. This began contact with and a long history of hiring mercenaries from Prax for distant wars.

1420 - Derik Pol-Joni and his followers, moved their cattle, led by a magical bull, into the Praxian lands called No Man’s March. By defeating Jaldon they claimed the right to live in Prax.

1442 - Sheng Seleris returned with a horde of barbarians, demons, antigods, and foreigners, especially Pelorians from the conquered Lunar Empire.

1450 - The guide map on page 142 shows all praxian territory under Sheng and the new Pol-joni area.

1460 - End of Sheng's Celestial Empire

It would seem that the Praxians are fighting with Sheng, against Sheng and the Pol-Joni slip in...

 

A lot of the stuff I'm working on won't be in a Prax book. A lot is back ground structure to help me understand whats going on. A bit like Greg's pre-finished works. My plan this afternoon is to add Southern Pent to my master map. I've been meaning to do this for nearly a year and from the discussion here I need to do it soon.

 

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This sounds very interesting... 

Need to do my experience rolls for the "ExtraOrdinaryPatience" again.... 

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8 hours ago, David Scott said:

A lot of the stuff I'm working on won't be in a Prax book. A lot is back ground structure to help me understand whats going on. A bit like Greg's pre-finished works.

 

When book is finished, +1 for a quick & dirty pdf with all of the research stuff :) !

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My thoughts about the Celestial Empire.

In the years after his failed first invasion (1362) Sheng Seleris was sacking a large number of places for secrets to use against Kralorela.  Did he visit Prax?  Or was Prax visited only by his chosen goons?  In Sun County, there is mention of Zeoluz (1370-75) who seems like a particularly bad egg.  He however doesn't rule very long such that if he was in the Empire, he got bored and left.  

Other places on the Celestial Empire to sack list would be the Block (all that Truestone), Eiritha Hills, Selenteen's Landing (which was destroyed) and the Rubble (which does have an out in saying that records are scare for 200 years PGtA p37) .  To avoid conflicts with the existing early sources, I assume that the Celestial Empire bigwig governed and collected tribute from the Huck Sheng Hills and was mainly interested in supply of troops.  His enforcers were mostly Praxian adherents of Jolaty.  That way, any actions by the Celestial Empire can be largely invisible to the Sartarites and Tarshites.  

 

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2 hours ago, metcalph said:

My thoughts about the Celestial Empire.

In the years after his failed first invasion (1362) Sheng Seleris was sacking a large number of places for secrets to use against Kralorela.  Did he visit Prax?  Or was Prax visited only by his chosen goons?  In Sun County, there is mention of Zeoluz (1370-75) who seems like a particularly bad egg.  He however doesn't rule very long such that if he was in the Empire, he got bored and left.  

Other places on the Celestial Empire to sack list would be the Block (all that Truestone), Eiritha Hills, Selenteen's Landing (which was destroyed) and the Rubble (which does have an out in saying that records are scare for 200 years PGtA p37) .  

If Sheng's minions managed to plunder the Rubble, they must have managed to sidestep the troll seal on the city without breaking it. (Which would have meant that they could make certain that they had the Rubble for their own, without nosy lesser plunderers interfering.)

I don't see evidence for Sheng coming to Prax in person. While the Rubble might be a treasure trove of draconic magic, Sheng had first hand experience with the real Kralorelan deal, so there wasn't much new to be learned from a failed experiment. The Dara Happan and Lunar knowledge may have been a lot more useful and fascinating to him.

I agree that the Block would have been a prime target, but a personal visit of Sheng probably would have left scars on the indestructible cube. Sheng might even have attempted to lift the block to access what lies below.

2 hours ago, metcalph said:

To avoid conflicts with the existing early sources, I assume that the Celestial Empire bigwig governed and collected tribute from the Huck Sheng Hills and was mainly interested in supply of troops.  His enforcers were mostly Praxian adherents of Jolaty.  That way, any actions by the Celestial Empire can be largely invisible to the Sartarites and Tarshites. 

So what is the role of Jaldon in relation to Sheng's Empire? He clearly predated Sheng's appearance, but he too is named a mystic (if a crazed dental one), and the great raids into Dragon Pass that triggered Derik Pol Joni's invasion of Prax definitely fell into the time of the Seleran Empire.

Did the ruling Zolati summon Jaldon, and back him up with their Sheng-given magic?

How long does it take to become a valid adherent of Jolaty? Probably not the 100 years Sheng needed to discover the way, but can it be done in just a few years? Just asking because of the notion of "Praxian" adherents of Jolaty. Beast Rider ones recruited in the Wastes might have a year advantage over Beast Riders roaming Prax, and the benefit of more direct teaching.

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1 hour ago, Joerg said:

If Sheng's minions managed to plunder the Rubble, they must have managed to sidestep the troll seal on the city without breaking it. (Which would have meant that they could make certain that they had the Rubble for their own, without nosy lesser plunderers interfering.)

If Sheng managed to break the Closing before Dormal, I'm not too worried about them being able to sidestep the seal.  My chief qualm is that it it is something that would be remembered.  What I'm leaning towards is making the mysterious settlement of Iffinbix a Celestial Empire intrusion.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

I don't see evidence for Sheng coming to Prax in person. While the Rubble might be a treasure trove of draconic magic, Sheng had first hand experience with the real Kralorelan deal, so there wasn't much new to be learned from a failed experiment. The Dara Happan and Lunar knowledge may have been a lot more useful and fascinating to him.

That assumes that Sheng knows what is in the Rubble before he decides whether or not to plunder it.  Which is unlikely even for an all-powerful demigod.  FWIW I don't believe that Sheng went to Prax but kind of like to see a more entertaining reason than it was not worth his while to plunder.

 

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

I agree that the Block would have been a prime target, but a personal visit of Sheng probably would have left scars on the indestructible cube. Sheng might even have attempted to lift the block to access what lies below.

Perhaps the pieces that are falling off were caused by Sheng's Visit and the reason why the Storm Bullies are so crazed about anybody trying to steal them is because they have bad memories about the visit.  (I'm rather proud of rumour 51 in the Sartar Companion although I think the (F) that follows is a publishing error).

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

So what is the role of Jaldon in relation to Sheng's Empire? He clearly predated Sheng's appearance, but he too is named a mystic (if a crazed dental one), and the great raids into Dragon Pass that triggered Derik Pol Joni's invasion of Prax definitely fell into the time of the Seleran Empire.

I think a Celestial Empire lieutenant decided to have a go in plundering Dragon Pass and summoned Jaldon for the purpose.  I *meant* to mention this in the post that you were responding to but had to do something else in a hurry.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

How long does it take to become a valid adherent of Jolaty? Probably not the 100 years Sheng needed to discover the way, but can it be done in just a few years? Just asking because of the notion of "Praxian" adherents of Jolaty. Beast Rider ones recruited in the Wastes might have a year advantage over Beast Riders roaming Prax, and the benefit of more direct teaching.

IMO at first most worshippers of Jolaty would be simple worshippers and initiates.  I don't think Praxian followers of the more austere path would be particularly common until much later.

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