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Gloranthan Maps & Images

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@Baron - are you new to the Gloranthan web presences? The etyries.com page is at least 10 years old.

A lot of fan pages were taken down because keeping them up and alive was work or cost money, and interests may drift. Especially if the official line just made a turn that runs against what you thought was the one and only truth - and you will be hard put to find any Glorantha fan not qualifying for at least one or the other of the other 9 points in Nick's list. I know that my own involvement varied over the years with a) how well integrated my vision was in the official view and b.) how much I was involved in doing creative stuff or actual gaming.

The Glorantha Tribe is a community of real people, with personal likes and averstions, and wildly differing preferences. There have been a number of changes to my impression of Glorantha, some of which I accepted, some of which I hated, and of the latter, some of which I came to live with, some of which I fought, and of those latter some of which got better (from my point of view), and a few fights which I lost or gave up, and a couple of ongoing ones.

I have learned to be mostly civil about these issues.

The Fan Policy wasn't one of these. I had one project which made strong use of copyrighted material - so I gave it to Issaries Inc. for publication on their website. All I did to my own website was to add the legalese paragraph, register with Issaries, and then I continued to do what I had always done.

It would be nice to have an official website to host fan-augmented copyrighted material. That involves quite a bit of work, work to be done by volunteers with both the time, the know-how, and the perseverance. Especially perseverance in times when your hobby horse is grazing outside of canon.

Right now in the wake of the RQ2 reprint hype the RQ2 grognards have a heyday. "We were right all along!" Sure. Just not entirely canonical.

At the same time, there is the destillation of 30 years pf development since the RQ3 switch that are presented alongside those sentimental reprints, and the commitment of Moondesign cum Chaosium to carry on on this body of work.

We finally have a publisher who puts out quality material in predictable word count to time frame ratios, and a good such ratio, too, even not counting the reprints - making all of that out of print material available again, and keeping the decanonized Issaries stuff available as pdfs, too, is an excellent move. A bit of a shame about that Mongoose material - a lot of which was playable, but also had some significant flaws from the beginning WRT canon. We have third party publishers of quality Glorantha material, too, which doesn't produce canonical but highly useful and not counter-canon material.

We also have a lively base of fans who maintain their personal contacts even if their fanaticism has cooled down quite a bit. The European conventions with a strong Glorantha component are as much of a family meeting these days as they are gaming conventions. It is nice to see some of that return to the USA.
 

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This would be a great place to link to this thing:

It's a DeviantArt group I made to serve as a hub for any Gloranthan artwork on DA (be it stuff like mine, or Jan's or Jonny Hodgson's where it's official illustrations put up on the web, or just fanart and stuff from people's campaigns and such), and while lately I just keep forgetting to check DA that often ,it still has a decent catalog of artwork. Since the group is a free one, I can't organize the actual submissions into categories, but if you check the Favorites of the group, I've tried to arrange those in relevant cultural/geographical groupings.

I hope this is useful for finding artwork...although I'm afraid I don't have a map of Sun County.

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19 minutes ago, Jenx said:

This would be a great place to link to this thing:

Er, link? :P

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So, I had a minute today, and finally caught up on this thread. Seems to have been thread-jacked. Apologies to the OP.

 

To review, I posted what I thought was a pretty mild, neutral comment yesterday. I had no agenda, and I've posted similarly on other forums, regarding a whole range of game lines and intellectual properties. I didn't even narrow the post down to the Glorantha family. It was a general statement, and based on the history in the industry, something that I consider to be common sense. And I DO cringe when I see these types of threads. Honest comment, honest reaction.

 

Within a fairly short time, Rick posted a response. He accuses me of “scaremongering,” and tells me to post specifics, or not post. Rick's a moderator now on the formerly fan-based BRP Central, which is now the official Chaosium forum. So his choice to post his reply, make an accusation regarding my supposed motives, and his instructions (he's a moderator) not to post if I can't back it up, have to be taken seriously.

 

Taking a bit of umbrage at the situation, which I think is understandable, I answered that I would oblige him and give specifics if he wanted. I considered it quite bold for him to (a) take my post personally, and then (b) attack me personally. Especially since I had a clear memory of Moon Design sending such a take-down order. I left it up to him, wondering idly if upon reflection he'd apologize or something for over-reacting and getting personal.

 

So, I was having a sleepless night (my mother-in-law just passed away, and I'm putting my wife on a plane for the funeral today). I got up, scanned my phone while I had a glass of water, and decided to do a quick search for the kind of online commentary I'd seen over the years (the requested “specifics”). I came across Soltakss' site pretty quickly, and posted the link about the Issaries policy days. Then I went back to more sleepless time in bed.

 

I wasn't setting up a “straw man,” Rick. Do you really think I'd bother? Why? You thought I was provoking a fight? Against who? You took it there, not me. I wasn't making “veiled comments” or “hints,” or saying “I know secrets” (what I referred to, the history of fan materials being taken down, is hardly secret). C'mon, re-read my initial post, and then what you've posted! I was being civil and discrete in my initial post, didn't call anyone out, and you as much as call me a liar. When I'd seen that Moon Design take-down order. You imagined I (or anyone) wouldn't get indignant in such a situation? So yeah, if you say “I call you out; I dare you. Show your cards or shut up,” I'll react.

 

At this point, I was posting any specifics about fan-based material disappearing from the web that I could scrounge up in a short time. Soltakss' comments on his site have been up for a long, long time. I wasn't trying to “score points” or “support positions against” whatever people he happens to like these days (because he certainly was upset back then); a man had just accused me of trying to scare people by making something up, assumedly because he thinks I'm seeking some sort of ego-gratification. Why I would think Soltakss would object to my quoting his public post that had been up for many years, I don't know. Happy to oblige you at this point though, sir.

 

Why Soltakss posts that I shouldn't refer to him because he's just a “fanboy” or because I wouldn't mention something I'd heard at a gaming table, I don't know. Of course I would! A source is a source. But at that point I hadn't read the posts that were appearing in the thread; I was just having a glass of water and killing fifteen minutes by copy-pasting links.

 

Also, whether the post was made eleven years ago is really irrelevant. Rick asked me to back up my statement that fan-based material has been ordered removed from the web. Again, I had accused no one, and only reacted to Rick's “dare.” It did happen. Point already proved: companies will ask people to take down fan materials. But if those companies don't hear about the materials, they won't have to come down. So be careful when posting in forums. That's all I said, and this is an example of why I said it. Rick, I “own what I said.” I have no clue what you mean by “self selecting reasons,” but I think I've explained my reasons pretty clearly at this point, no?

 

So Jeff posts it's from eleven years ago, was Issaries not Moon Design or Chaosium. Not that I think that's particularly relevant to the specific statement of mine that was challenged. However, I still know that take-down letter from Moon Design is out there, and Jeff must know it too. So, bold statement on Jeff's part, too. Anyway, he says he “gutted” the Issaries policy. First I've heard of it, but sure, less restrictions on fan work = good, so if that's the case he gets points for that.

 

And Soltakss posts, and he's very nice to all the companies, says nice things to them. Then seems to have taken offense to me. I don't really understand why. I did what Rick asked. Sorry I quoted a long public statement that the Soltakss of today doesn't want me to. OK then, won't do that again.

 

Then Vile posts a friendly, calm commentary that I appreciate. As he acknowledges, what I said did happen, it happened to the fan bases of many different IP's, including Glorantha (which AGAIN I point out, I didn't even specifically bring into the mix – Rick took it there). Again, my point is supported, from my initial post that Rick took exception to. Perhaps further down in the thread, he (and Jeff) might acknowledge that, and that his response was inappropriately adversarial. Perhaps.

 

So, a few hours go by, I try to sleep but only doze. I get up again, sit at the kitchen table and pick up my phone. Maybe I'll just browse the net for any more examples. Sheesh, can't believe he wants me to point this stuff out. Oh, here's Nick Brooke's site, and he makes a comment about the hate in response to “the 'official policy on fan publications', together with the website policy.” Let me copy that link. Poking around specifically for maps being pulled, I immediately come back to Soltakss' site and find what I had in mind, that take-down letter from Jeff Richards, at Moon Design, sent to order Soltakss to remove his map of Pavis. Exactly what I had been referring to. Copied that link out too, posted it quickly (again without reading the threads) and went back to bed.

 

Now, sorry Soltakss. Again, I still hadn't read your reply asking that you not be quoted. So I won't paste the body of the take-down letter you received from Jeff. I haven't even re-read it since years ago, just pasted the link and went to bed. Perhaps this is the “one time” you refer to that you were asked to take something down, I don't know and you don't have to reply. But it IS the specific letter that I remembered reading years ago, that made me find Rick and Jeff's responses so “bold.” (Again, I was using a polite word. Would be nice to get credit for civility around here.)

 

So point made. Not only do companies require fans to remove materials from the web, but it happened with the Moon Design team. Before the days of the SRD, the D&D folks were all over the web intimidating fans. Loz anticipated such problems with a certain little “unofficial” fan write-up that he asked go unnamed online. I've read accounts over the years from many different boards, and I'm not about to go through all that for the sake of argument. But it would be nice if I wasn't attacked for my initial bit of advice, and my statements or motivations questioned.

 

And in reply to Joerg, no I'm certainly not new to Glorantha web presences. I read all that years ago. And again, that has no relevance to my statement. I find it inadvisable to bring up those kinds of topics in open forums, because I've seen what can happen. And I'd certainly like things to be civil. But I haven't crossed the line into incivility.

 

 

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Ok. First of all, I feel with you about your personal situation.

I agree - fan policies that strangle fan creativity suck. So does the rest of the people on this forum, including those who make a living out of our hobby.

"Fans" suing original creators suck big time, so a modicum of protection from a repeat of the Darkover desaster is the best way to ensure that there is a steady stream of more original material. Some protection of intellectual property might be necessary, too, to avoid IP trolls trying to disown you.

17 hours ago, Baron said:

Sharing is good. I've also heard rumors (for those who might be relatively new) that a lot of fan-made material was ordered removed from the net by the powers that were at the time.

That's where you hit sensibilities - not just Rick's, but mine as well. You're referring to rumors, thereby spreading them.

 

Doing so in a thread on Glorantha makes every reader assume that you have a specific problem with this having happened in Glorantha.

I was cooperating with the Lokarnos initiative at the time of the Fan Policy - a platform for links to Glorantha content and related stuff, so I had a fairly good overview over the websites at the time. I don't remember "a lot of fan-made material" ordered removed from the net.

I do remember some very few people throwing a fit and retreating from the forums when they suffered a "my vision is incompatible to official decrees" downer. Those web presences rarely disappeared at once, but usually they fell into a torpor.

Perhaps the greatest loss in fan creativity on the net was when Geocities closed shop, and all those pages hosted there disappeared into the limbo. I had a wiki project of mine disappear when the wiki provider folded.

Some great projects have disappeared - Oliver Bernuetz's Mything Links, the (slash.dot-based) Lokarnos.com, and numerous private web presences. Some fan stuff on the official Glorantha pages got lost when switching to a technology that is closer to state of the art web presences. (I lost about 20k pages...)

In all of this, "cease and desist" did not play a significant role in the Glorantha community.

 

Other publishers (especially those bought up by business outside of the hobby) did tear down well-established fan presence. Some still do it (Star Wars expanded universe started with the roleplaying material, then added a body of novels, and now much of that body of information is largely ignored by the authors of the latest movie - and they had no excuse about inaccessibility of that material, there is the thoroughly researched wookiepedia).

Breaks in the continuity of a setting (e.g. Elmal) are rarely greeted with enthusiasm by long time fans. They are supposed to sacrifice their investment of years of their time and creativity for a new direction that doesn't necessarily improve the setting. (My personal negative highlight for this was the Traveler New Era setting, but I didn't react too well to the changes made to Mage the Ascension either.) In these cases, I don't recall much of enforced retirement of fan-created content, though.

 

I can empathize with authors cutting short their research when faced with looming deadlines, but I don't really enjoy the outcome of this approach. (That's why Mongoose's Glorantha - The Second Age didn't work for me, there were a few fundamental flaws that multiplied into lots of highly irrelevant or plainly wrong details. There were quite a lot of brilliant ideas in those books, but due to those flaws few products conformed with the Gloranthan lore. The ones that did, like Dara Happa Rising, were real gems.)

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The only problematic / stifling "policy" that I personally know of, or can speak to, is that of 3rd-party products, e.g. conversions/supplements/etc for sundry Big Name License material.  I'd rather not name any explicit names, as the IP-lawyers' google-fu may summon those Great Old Ones' eyes to this forum, and/or the d/l pages/etc.

RE the "newpavis" page:  I encourage everyone to go to that page, and read the letter from MD (I just did).  I have no complaints about "stifle."

 

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3 hours ago, goldenwheeldancer said:

Back in the good old days people on BRP Central could babble on about whatever they liked without being asked (rather aggressively) to stop.

Is BRP Central now policed? 

As far as I am aware, to the extent that BRP Central is "policed" it basically boils down to:

1. Violating other people's intellectual property. For example, don't post unlicensed adaptations of a Hollywood studio notorious for litigation.

2. Hijacking threads to talk about unrelated subjects (please just start a new thread).

That's about it.

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6 hours ago, Baron said:

Now, sorry Soltakss. Again, I still hadn't read your reply asking that you not be quoted. So I won't paste the body of the take-down letter you received from Jeff. I haven't even re-read it since years ago, just pasted the link and went to bed. Perhaps this is the “one time” you refer to that you were asked to take something down, I don't know and you don't have to reply. But it IS the specific letter that I remembered reading years ago, that made me find Rick and Jeff's responses so “bold.” (Again, I was using a polite word. Would be nice to get credit for civility around here.)

You don't need to post it, as it is on Simon's website. Here's how it reads:

New Pavis Map

Created On 13 July 2007
Last Updated On 13 July 2007
Copyright © 2014 Simon E. Phipp

Below ysed to be a map of New Pavis, taken from the map sections in River of Cradles.

I joined them together as best I can, corrected some mistakes and filled in some gaps.

There was an image map behind the map that allowed you to move your mouse over a building to get a description of what is in the building or allowed you to click on a building to go to the New Pavis Locations Page.

However, this map has now been taken fown, following instructions from Moon Design. If I have the time to make a new image map for the proposed image, then I might do so. However, this would take several days and would assume that the map is not removed. Given Moon Design's track record regarding removing files, this is not an assumption that I would like to make.

The email that I received is shown below. I make no judgement over the email, but have complied with its wishes.

 


From: Jeff Richard 
To: Simon Phipp  
Cc: Rick Meints ; Neil Robinson  
Sent: Friday, 7 March 2014, 16:48
Subject: New Pavis map

Simon -

Re: the New Pavis map you have up at: http://www.soltakss.com/newpavis.html

We've got a pretty laid back Fan Policy, but we do ask people to please comply with it:
You may reference the names of Glorantha things, institutions, places, people, deities, and concepts from our published products, provided you make it clear that these are our marks.
You may reference plots, storylines, language, and events from our published products in campaign journals, play-by-post or play-by-email games, internet discussion groups, or your own blog or website.
You may use text or artwork published on the Glorantha website at glorantha.com, unless a page specifically states that the text or artwork is not to be used. You may not use artwork, including maps, that have not been published on the website, although you may create your own interpretations of material presented in our artwork and maps (as long as these are original interpretations and not simple copies).
You may use those maps located at the Gloranthan Community Map Page. 
You may use the covers of any of our products. Product covers may not be cropped, color adjusted, edited, distorted, or modified.

Putting up the Pavis map from the RQ2 Pavis Book (the rights to which are owned by Moon Design) and then putting your copyright on it is not exactly complying with the spirit or the letter of the Fan Policy. 

Please take down the map you have up at http://www.soltakss.com/newpavis.html and instead use the map that we have put up on the website for just that purpose (along with a statement that the map is copyright of Moon Design):

http://www.glorantha.com/docs/map-of-new-pavis/

I know you put that up on your website a long time ago, but let's make this comply with the policy (especially since it is not very hard to do).

Thanks in advance -

Jeff

-- 
Jeffery A. Richard
Creative Director
Moon Design Publications

All information in this email transmission, including financial and numerical information, is strictly private and confidential, and subject to change, correction and completion. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete the email and all attachments immediately. This email (including any attachments) may contain confidential or privileged information or both. If you are not the intended recipient, any reliance on, use, disclosure, dissemination, distribution or copying of this email or attachments is strictly prohibited.
@gmail.com>@gmail.com>@yahoo.com>@gmail.com>

 

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2 hours ago, goldenwheeldancer said:

Back in the good old days people on BRP Central could babble on about whatever they liked without being asked (rather aggressively) to stop.

Is BRP Central now policed? 

Since this is now an official venue for the pubisher, I think it reasonable for those folks to speak up when a very-strong implication is made that the publisher is suppressing fan content (given how long it has been... well, "central" to BRP online, I think they might have spoken up even before it became "official").

In light of Baron's recent post, I suspect he didn't intend to make an implication as strong as what I had read, nor specific to Glorantha, to MoonDesign or other current publishers, etc (of course, just how strongly-implied something is, is a matter of personal interpretation).  Personally, I had read it as a pretty-strong implication, specific to Glorantha and to current publishers thereof; I am unsurprised that they found it necessary to challenge that implication!  Letting it stand (by implication) enderses that implication...

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16 minutes ago, Steve said:

Group hug?

Good suggestion or a trip to Tourney Altar...

 

Both would work.

Edited by Iskallor
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22 hours ago, Baron said:

So, I was having a sleepless night (my mother-in-law just passed away, and I'm putting my wife on a plane for the funeral today). I got up, scanned my phone while I had a glass of water, and decided to do a quick search for the kind of online commentary I'd seen over the years (the requested “specifics”). I came across Soltakss' site pretty quickly, and posted the link about the Issaries policy days. Then I went back to more sleepless time in bed.

At this point, I was posting any specifics about fan-based material disappearing from the web that I could scrounge up in a short time. Soltakss' comments on his site have been up for a long, long time. I wasn't trying to “score points” or “support positions against” whatever people he happens to like these days (because he certainly was upset back then); a man had just accused me of trying to scare people by making something up, assumedly because he thinks I'm seeking some sort of ego-gratification. Why I would think Soltakss would object to my quoting his public post that had been up for many years, I don't know. Happy to oblige you at this point though, sir.

 

No problem.

The comments on my website were made a long while ago and are not particularly relevant now. They are there for the record and I am still against the general idea of the old fan policy, but that policy is no longer current.

I don't mind people quoting me to make points, after all I post enough comments myself. However, I have always tried to be supportive of those companies publishing in the D100 family and don't really like to oppose them if at all possible. I am aware that my website is fan-based and could be closed down at any time, so don't want to take the risk that someone takes offense about something I said, so I try to be as careful as possible.

 

22 hours ago, Baron said:

Why Soltakss posts that I shouldn't refer to him because he's just a “fanboy” or because I wouldn't mention something I'd heard at a gaming table, I don't know. Of course I would! A source is a source. But at that point I hadn't read the posts that were appearing in the thread; I was just having a glass of water and killing fifteen minutes by copy-pasting links.

And Soltakss posts, and he's very nice to all the companies, says nice things to them. Then seems to have taken offense to me. I don't really understand why. I did what Rick asked. Sorry I quoted a long public statement that the Soltakss of today doesn't want me to. OK then, won't do that again.

 

It wasn't your fault and I haven't taken offence at you at all. Whilst I appreciate that people read my posts and my websites and find them useful/informative for some reason, I have never seen myself as anything more than a fanboy with a big mouth, so am always surprised/uncomfortable when people quote me or value my opinions. 

I just don't want people in power to come down on me like a ton of bricks for something I said ten years ago.

 

22 hours ago, Baron said:

Poking around specifically for maps being pulled, I immediately come back to Soltakss' site and find what I had in mind, that take-down letter from Jeff Richards, at Moon Design, sent to order Soltakss to remove his map of Pavis. Exactly what I had been referring to. Copied that link out too, posted it quickly (again without reading the threads) and went back to bed.

 

That is the only thing that I have ever been asked to take down. There was some confusion regarding the copyright notice, which was for the text not the modified map. However, my policy is to take things down if asked, so down it went.

 

22 hours ago, Baron said:

Now, sorry Soltakss. Again, I still hadn't read your reply asking that you not be quoted. So I won't paste the body of the take-down letter you received from Jeff. I haven't even re-read it since years ago, just pasted the link and went to bed. Perhaps this is the “one time” you refer to that you were asked to take something down, I don't know and you don't have to reply. But it IS the specific letter that I remembered reading years ago, that made me find Rick and Jeff's responses so “bold.” (Again, I was using a polite word. Would be nice to get credit for civility around here.)

The map was deemed to be breaching copyright, not the fan policy, they are different things.

As I have signed up for a fan website license, I am bound by its terms and take things down if asked. Other people took down their websites due to the very old Issaries fan policy, as they didn't want to sign the license.

 

You are one of the most civil posters on this forum, far more civil and patient that I am.

 

 

Edited by soltakss
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All I will say on this I have published my fan material on-line recently and have only had a supportive line taken by Jeff and the guys.  

I couldn't haver asked for a more gracious attitude, as im an opinionated pain in the ass :).

Edited by Jon Hunter
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On March 24, 2016 at 5:06 AM, Baron said:

http://www.etyries.com/rants/hate.htm
This hate is, of course, linked to the latest incarnation of the "official policy on fan publications", together with the website policy, Duck Point Press, the various Approval schemes, and other stiflers of creativity.

http://www.soltakss.com/newpavis.html
However, this map has now been taken down, following instructions from Moon Design...

Nick Brooke, a good friend of mine, wrote that about Issaries Inc. over 10 years ago (probably in 2003). One thing you may not know is that Moon Design acquired the glorantha.com domain from Issaries Inc, who had been using it for a number of years before Moon Design acquired it. Nick's fan policy links have never been updated as far as I know, and if you click on them you will see they are broken because they went to pages turned off almost a decade ago. Nick stopped updating his Etyries website around the end of 2004. There are lots of things on Nick's site praising Moon design, btw. It was the Issaries Inc. Fan Policy that he loathed.  Duck Point Press died over a decade ago as well.

I responded to Baron's post for one reason, from where I was sitting it looked like he was talking about more recent efforts by Moon Design and/or Chaosium to regularly stifle websites, fan publications or similar. If I had realized he was referring to things from the previous decade, and mostly by other companies that I only casually volunteered for on occasion, I would have just said "why dig up the past". Jeff and I intentionally gutted the previous fan publications policies.

Simon Phipp's situation has pretty much been covered above, so I don't have much to add other than Jeff and I worked with him on the situation, and if you read the letter Simon posted on his website I doubt you would characterize it as hostile or similar. We offered alternatives and suggestions while also looking out for our Copyrights and such.

The current Moon Design policy is here: http://www.glorantha.com/glorantha/fan-sites/fan-policy/

In the end, I apologize for interpreting Baron's post as being about our current 2015-2016 situation and not that of the Issaries Inc. era of 2003 or so. That will teach me to respond to posts after a long and tiring day.

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On ‎3‎/‎25‎/‎2016 at 6:50 PM, Jeff said:

As far as I am aware, to the extent that BRP Central is "policed" it basically boils down to:

1. Violating other people's intellectual property. For example, don't post unlicensed adaptations of a Hollywood studio notorious for litigation.

2. Hijacking threads to talk about unrelated subjects (please just start a new thread).

That's about it.

 #2 might be a problem for me. At my age my minds tends to wander all over the place. Of course it tended to wander all over the place when I was younger too.

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12 minutes ago, TRose said:

 #2 might be a problem for me. At my age my minds tends to wander all over the place. Of course it tended to wander all over the place when I was younger too.

Hah! I know that feeling. That's why I used the word "hijacking" - if the thread is about the new household economic rules in RQ4, please don't hijack that thread to talk about your opinion of the Earned Income Tax Creditor or why growth in assessed value for purposes of ad valorum taxation should be capped. Meandering is fine, as long as it meanders back.

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On 3/28/2016 at 3:23 AM, Rick Meints said:

Jeff and I intentionally gutted the previous fan publications policies.

Does that mean we can bring back the tastefully done drawing of a morocanth herder milking one of his cows? :lol:

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Dear Moderator, please ban everyone else in this thread for a breach of Rule #2 :)

#SpiritsOfReprisal #DivineIntervention #MapsPlease #lolz #GoldbreathForCount

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It's one of the mixed blessings of the lifespan of an ancient game (whose survival in its Dark Ages was very much about 1) fan-produced stuff and 2) the nascent interwebs) that there's ancient stuff all over the web.

In this case, it's ancient fan-rants about something long since repaired, in my view.

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