A Question About Heortling Steads

[SNaomiScott]

Hi all.

I'm in the process of getting ready to run a Glorantha game using RQ Classic rules (so many fond memories), and after browsing through the old HeroQuest books I've decided I'm mostly going to be limiting my players to the Heortling-controlled areas of Sartar as described in Thunder Rebels. While I'm impressed by just how much background information is given in this and the associated books, I'm still having trouble picturing the layout of a 'typical' Heortling Stead.

Can anybody point me in the direction of some suitable maps/plans/layouts for a Heortling Stead, or recommend a (currently available) publication that contains such maps? I currently have pdfs of HQ Thunder Rebels, HQ Dragon Pass and HQ Barbarian Adventures and plan on purchasing Storm Tribes and the other two Sartar Rising pdfs when I get paid next week.

Thanks in advance.

 

[M Helsdon]

2 hours ago, SNaomiScott said:

Hi all.

I'm in the process of getting ready to run a Glorantha game using RQ Classic rules (so many fond memories), and after browsing through the old HeroQuest books I've decided I'm mostly going to be limiting my players to the Heortling-controlled areas of Sartar as described in Thunder Rebels. While I'm impressed by just how much background information is given in this and the associated books, I'm still having trouble picturing the layout of a 'typical' Heortling Stead.

 

Not Heorting but closely related: there's a plan of a typical Steadholder's house in the oop RQ3 Dorastor, page 109. Basically an oblong with a front and rear entrance in the middle of the longer sides, with the hearth and living quarters, then private quarters to the right of the entrances, and stalls for livestock to the left of the entrances. The same publication has diagram's of richer buildings - a chieftain's hall and council hall on page 113.

The forthcoming The Coming Storm will also contain information about households in Sartar, including: A longhouse is a long, narrow, timber-framed building. The walls are of wattle-and-daub, the roof of tiles. The ceiling is open to the top of the rafters, which are used for storage. The floor is rough earth. Often, the building is divided into three portions: stalls for cattle, a single living space, and bedrooms. In richer houses the cattle live in a separate byre.

The Coming Storm contains a lot more information, so whilst it is written for HeroQuest there's a very great deal of general background in it, about houses, steads and villages.

Edited January 22, 2016 by M Helsdon

[Joerg]

Actually, the sources are quite unclear about this.

A typical clan has between 500 to 1000 members. The (nowadays moblle) computer game King of Dragon Pass (which managed to make me form a habit now on my 90 minute long bus rides) makes a number of assumptions which are mostly in keeping with what we find in Sartar - Kingdom of Heroes, Thunder Rebels, Sun County (the Garhound contest) and the Report on the Orlanthi in King of Sartar.

There appears to be a central village, usually around the chieftain's hall and the local temples and shrines not situated at isolated landmarks.

It isn't clear whether that hall is held by the chieftain's extended family and gets promoted to chieftain's hall when he is elected (in that case, owning/holding a suitable hall in a suitable location would be a prerequisite for being elected as chieftain), or whether it is a clan-owned drinking hall with living quarters for the current chieftain and his followers, away from his family stead. Knowing the Orlanthi, either statement is true. Special buildings like the silver-roofed Balmyr tribal king's hall in Halfort doubtlessly are of the latter type.

Property in an Orlanthi clan is difficult to describe, too. No individual person owns any land or stead, but usually the household head(s) of a family of appropriate status are assigned holdership of a stead. A steadholder household is at least of carl status. The stead may have more than carl household on its premises - each of these will have a modest longhouse which is half stable area for the kine, and half living and working area for the kin plus the hall where the steadholder holds his table. In addition, there are likely several lesser houses (cottages) of cottar families sharing that stead, probably slightly more than one per longhouse. These are similar in design to the longhouse, but a lot shorter lacking the hall portion and providing shelter for just a handful of cattle. Before construction of these houses, the future stead was assigned to the households. Erecting and maintaining the buildings falls to the households, who basically hold it on unlimited lease but may be ordered out by a powerful chieftain and/or a unified clan ring, depending on how strong the chieftain is and whether the steadholder or other resident households have earned special pleasure or displeasure.

A small stead will consist of a longhouse and maybe a cottage or three. A large (noble's) stead could resemble Apple Lane (aka Gringlestead), although usually with a lot less special/unusual buildings. The central village may or may not be addressed as a stead, and will house a number of noble and carl households, and a greater number of cottages. The central village of the Orlmarth clan is shown in Sartar - Kingdom of Heroes.

There may also be isolated or paired cottages, often belonging to hunters or crafters with unusual demands on location.

Another workshop-style building was the roundhouse, resembling a teepee above a hole in the ground with some low side walls.

More on special buildings later.

 

Overall, these arrangements resemble middle European settlement patterns which didn't change much between the neolithic farming communities and the post-Roman Iron Age. While there were regional variations in building style etc., these patterns appear to have been shared by Scandinavians, Germanic, continental Celtic and sedentary Danubian tribes. Only the mediterranean and the distand island Celts had somewhat different building types.

[M Helsdon]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Actually, the sources are quite unclear about this.

There's considerable detail regarding the structure and memberships of clans, steads and households in forthcoming Volume 1 of The Coming Storm.

[Lord High Munchkin]

17 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Not Heorting but closely related: there's a plan of a typical Steadholder's house in the oop RQ3 Dorastor, page 109. Basically an oblong with a front and rear entrance in the middle of the longer sides, with the hearth and living quarters, then private quarters to the right of the entrances, and stalls for livestock to the left of the entrances. The same publication has diagram's of richer buildings - a chieftain's hall and council hall on page 113.

The forthcoming The Coming Storm will also contain information about households in Sartar, including: A longhouse is a long, narrow, timber-framed building. The walls are of wattle-and-daub, the roof of tiles. The ceiling is open to the top of the rafters, which are used for storage. The floor is rough earth. Often, the building is divided into three portions: stalls for cattle, a single living space, and bedrooms. In richer houses the cattle live in a separate byre.

The Coming Storm contains a lot more information, so whilst it is written for HeroQuest there's a very great deal of general background in it, about houses, steads and villages.

I've lived in old houses and even renewed an earthen floor... poured bullocks' blood and wiped it for hours to polish up a tough Lino-like surface.

[jajagappa]

Larger steads like Old Man Village of the Orlmarth or Apple Lane are effectively villages.  The former is laid out in Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes, and the latter in either Apple Lane or Sartar Companion.

For a smaller stead, as others note, there's likely one or two longhouses with several small cottages, barns, or animal pens.  The layout shown in this image would be an example I might use: http://koso.ucsd.edu/~martin/CelticVillageAltburgSmall.jpg

 

[SNaomiScott]

Thanks for all the replies.

As it happens I bought and downloaded the Sartar Campaign Pack last night and that has a couple of examples that seem suitable, especially Old Man Village as jajagappa mentioned.

I'm not so sure about Apple Lane - I've not seen a map of the place for a long time (still waiting for the pdf to be made available through the Kickstarter) but I vaguely remember it being more quasi-medieval and less quasi-bronze age, though that could just be down to the way the GM we had at the time presented it.

Thanks again for the pointers and information - I'm sure it will all prove useful for my planned Heortling-based game. :-)

Edited to add: Is there any news on when The Coming Storm is due to hit the store?

Edited January 28, 2016 by SNaomiScott

[Jeff]

On January 22, 2016 at 1:37 PM, SNaomiScott said:

Hi all.

I'm in the process of getting ready to run a Glorantha game using RQ Classic rules (so many fond memories), and after browsing through the old HeroQuest books I've decided I'm mostly going to be limiting my players to the Heortling-controlled areas of Sartar as described in Thunder Rebels. While I'm impressed by just how much background information is given in this and the associated books, I'm still having trouble picturing the layout of a 'typical' Heortling Stead.

Can anybody point me in the direction of some suitable maps/plans/layouts for a Heortling Stead, or recommend a (currently available) publication that contains such maps? I currently have pdfs of HQ Thunder Rebels, HQ Dragon Pass and HQ Barbarian Adventures and plan on purchasing Storm Tribes and the other two Sartar Rising pdfs when I get paid next week.

Thanks in advance.

 

I will be including some canonical maps/plans/layouts of a common Heortling/Kethaelan stead in a 2016 publication. They are NOT what folk generally assume.

The most typical Heortling stead is built in a square shape (an Earth Rune). It consists of several buildings built around a central courtyard/garden. The buildings typically include a barn, an entry hall, a place for guests and storage, a "guard room" (usually includes a shrine to the guardian deities), an outer hearth, and a inner hearth (which has the shrines to ancestors and to the personal deities), There are usually smaller huts for tenant farmers and other dependents who aren't part of the close family. Building materials depends on the local area and varies from wood, stone and timber, fired clay, adobe, etc.

These sorts of farmsteads can be found throughout Sartar, Heortland, Esrolia, Maniria, and even the Vendref communities in the Grazelands. 

[Mankcam]

Actually, thematically at least, this is somewhat consistent with the building descriptions in the old RQ2 Pavis box. Many houses in New Pavis are square ( earth rune influenced) with stone or brick walls around an inner hearth/fireplace, and they have roof tiling where they can afford, with poorer structures having reed roofs.

Given that these buildings are the homes of the descendants of the Sartarites who recolonised the region, then many of the housing designs are Orlanthi/Heortling in nature, and adapted to a new environment (ie: poorer residences having reed roofs whereas they may have used thatch back in Sartar).

This means the Orllanthi settlements were certainly not originally envisioned to be direct analogs of Celtic/Saxon villages or Viking Long Houses, well not all settlements in any case.

I like how contemporary Gloranthan depictions have returned to these original ideas and used them as reference points to further elaborate upon.

Edited January 31, 2016 by Mankcam

[Jeff]

The houses in New Pavis are very normal Orlanthi houses adapted to the environment of Pavis County. The homes of notables in Sartar are often built of stone, not timber. 

 

[Mankcam]

The pictures of Steads in 'Pavis Gateway To Adventure' (p61 and p110)  are likely influenced from the Steads back in Sartar, so they certainly provide us some ideas to go on until the next Sartar publication comes out. I imagine the building materials vary and such, but the concepts will be more or less the same. 

There are also depictions of Steads in 'Sartar Kingdom Of Heroes'. On p327 it shows Snorristead (described as a typical Orlanthi stead). The design for this stead is a wooden longhouse. It does have a tiled roof however, and a hearth in the central area. The description also states that the longhouse is surrounded by several other sheds and a stone wall, which I now presume may be in square formation (Earth Rune), although it is not specific in this regard.

There are also various pictures of Steads and larger settlements in the 'Sartar Companion' which show a collection of longhouses, but these don't seem to be following any Earth-Rune influenced format, they are enclosed in round wooden walls/palisades (ie Hillhaven Village p199). 

It should be noted that other Runes are used to influence building structure. For example, the Jonstown Library is Y-shaped, which corresponds to the Truth/Knowledge Rune.

If the OP is after further supplements, I would suggest getting 'Sartar Kingdom Of Heroes' and 'Sartar Companion', and after this possibly get 'Pavis Gateway To Adventure'.

It will be good to see what information is published in future supplements.

Edited February 2, 2016 by Mankcam
added info

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

On 30 January 2016 at 5:57 AM, Jeff said:

I will be including some canonical maps/plans/layouts of a common Heortling/Kethaelan stead in a 2016 publication. They are NOT what folk generally assume.

The most typical Heortling stead is built in a square shape (an Earth Rune). It consists of several buildings built around a central courtyard/garden. The buildings typically include a barn, an entry hall, a place for guests and storage, a "guard room" (usually includes a shrine to the guardian deities), an outer hearth, and a inner hearth (which has the shrines to ancestors and to the personal deities), There are usually smaller huts for tenant farmers and other dependents who aren't part of the close family. Building materials depends on the local area and varies from wood, stone and timber, fired clay, adobe, etc.

These sorts of farmsteads can be found throughout Sartar, Heortland, Esrolia, Maniria, and even the Vendref communities in the Grazelands. 

Recently returned to Glorantha and its possibilities after a long spell away. I very much like the clarifications of Glorantha as an ancient setting. RQ3 was very confused imo, with a medieval West, which actually put me off Glorantha as a setting. Glad to read that this has been corrected. 

Apple lane was quite confusing for me with Runequest 3rd edition, with the image of donald duck in full plate medieval armour! In light of these clarifications of Orlanthi culture how are we to interpret Apple lane now? For instance would there still be a "Sheriff"? Is there revised material that would help me visualise Apple Lane more inline with current thinking on Orlanthi culture? As a mostly RQ3 person where would be best to look? future publications? 

Edited March 1, 2016 by Paid a bod yn dwp

[M Helsdon]

43 minutes ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

Apple lane was quite confusing for me with Runequest 3rd edition, with the image of donald duck in full plate medieval armour! In light of these clarifications of Orlanthi culture how are we to interpret Apple lane now? For instance would there still be a "Sheriff"? Is there revised material that would help me visualise Apple Lane more inline with current thinking on Orlanthi culture? As a mostly RQ3 person where would be best to look? future publications? 

There's a Return to Apple Lane in the HQ Sartar Companion. Whilst not based in RQ, it contains a great deal of background information, set around 1621? Drolan Swordsharp is still there, the thane of Apple Lane.

You can download it here:

http://www.glorantha.com/docs/return-to-apple-lane/

Edited March 1, 2016 by M Helsdon

[TRose]

 Would not many of the poorer resident around New Pavis and in Prax have sod cabins ( Like used in the Great Plains of the USA   in the 19 century) since they are quick and cheap to build?

[M Helsdon]

43 minutes ago, TRose said:

 Would not many of the poorer resident around New Pavis and in Prax have sod cabins ( Like used in the Great Plains of the USA   in the 19 century) since they are quick and cheap to build?

The Wastelands are more desert chaparral, and Prax a semi-arid grassland than a prairie with thickly rooted grasses. It's unlikely that the resources to build sod houses are widely available in the vicinity of Pavis. Instead houses in Pavis utilize what is fairly available: adobe, stone, leather and reeds (from the River of Cradles).

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

5 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

There's a Return to Apple Lane in the HQ Sartar Companion. Whilst not based in RQ, it contains a great deal of background information, set around 1621? Drolan Swordsharp is still there, the thane of Apple Lane.

You can download it here:

http://www.glorantha.com/docs/return-to-apple-lane/

Thanks, thats exactly what i was looking for.

A quick comparison and I see a few minor but sensible changes:

• The Sheriff (or Sheruff), has become a Thane, in keeping with the Glorantha setting.
• The weapon masters guild hall has been removed completely.
• The "housemasters guild" changed to the humbler "Stables"

I guess "guild" has too many medieval connotations, not suitable to the ancient setting of Glorantha.

Overall Apple lane remains largerly the same, but without those few medieval associations. I can see how it works in the Gloranthan context now much more clearly. I can also see what a red hearing the 3rd edition cover was, with the medieval plate armoured Donald duck ( Quack John),  as well as the wording  "Save the Hamlet from Scurrilous Scoundrels", which sounds like it could have come from the pages of Robin Hood.

[Mankcam]

Yeah for the ancient feel of Glorantha I'ld suggest the RQ2 Gloranthan Classics compendiums (Pavis & Big Rubble, Cult Compedium, Griffin Mountain, Borderlands & Beyond). For RQ3 there is Sun Country, River Of Cradles, Strangers In Prax, Shadows On The Borderlands and Dorastor. Most other RQ3 stuff wasn't Gloranthan, or didn't portray the setting accurately. Even some of the artwork in Sun Country was a little too medieval at times, but mainly it got it right. 

HeroQuest supplements have a wealth of information which is easily ported across, so I would recommend Sartar Kingdom Of Heroes and the Sartar Companion. Pavis Gateway To Adventure is also very good, but much of the info contained has been presented in the above titles.

I did not have the RQ3 Apple Lane, but it sounded wrong on many levels, especially the front cover.

My scrappy old copy of Apple Lane from the RQ2 box has been used many times. If I was to run it again I would definitely transpose the trappings and changes from HQ Return To Apple Lane, presenting Orlanthi based upon pictures of Thracians and Dacians. Other than that, Apple Lane is still a great little starter sandbox I reckon.

Edited March 5, 2016 by Mankcam

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

12 hours ago, Mankcam said:

Yeah for the ancient feel of Glorantha I'ld suggest the RQ2 Gloranthan Classics compendiums (Pavis & Big Rubble, Cult Compedium, Griffin Mountain, Borderlands & Beyond). For RQ3 there is Sun Country, River Of Cradles, Strangers In Prax, and Dorastor. Most other RQ3 stuff wasn't Gloranthan, or didn't portray the setting accurately. Even some of the artwork in Sun Country was a little too medieval at times, but mainly it got it right. 

HeroQuest supplements have a wealth of information which is easily ported across, so I would recommend Sartar Kingdom Of Heroes and the Sartar Companion. Pavis Gateway To Adventure is also very good, but much of the info contained has been presented in the above titles.

I did not have the RQ3 Apple Lane, but it sounded wrong on many levels, especially the front cover.

My scrappy old copy of Apple Lane from the RQ2 box has been used many times. If I was to run it again I would definitely transpose the trappings and changes from HQ Return To Apple Lane, presenting Orlanthi based upon pictures of Thracians and Dacians. Other than that, Apple Lane is still a great little starter sandbox I reckon.

Yes I remember a few illustrations in Sun County not quite hitting the "ancient" mark correctly, but the cover certainly did wonders for the ancient feel. As a kid I found the 3rd ed Apple lane very confusing with mixed messages about its "ancient" credentials. Glad to see Apple lane revisitited.

I'm liking the image of Orlanthi based on Thracians and Dacians, much more like it, and not too viking. Hope the new Runequest presents us with some great images to bring these Gloranthan cultures to life. I've seen one very good image of the Sable Rider. 

I'm tempted to buy Sartar Kingdom of Heroes and the Sartar Companion, but I'm hesitant, as I wonder whether there will be a new Runequest version of these released? 

Edited March 2, 2016 by Paid a bod yn dwp

[M Helsdon]

57 minutes ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

I'm tempted to buy Sartar Kingdom of Heroes and the Sartar Companion, but I'm hesitant, as I wonder whether there will be a new Runequest version of these released? 

I don't know regarding their re-release, but they mostly predate the Guide to Glorantha when the move towards more accurate pictorial representations picked up speed. The HeroQuest: Glorantha includes a great deal of accurate art, as will The Coming Storm volume 1. The latter is HeroQuest, not RuneQuest, but presents a great deal of systemless background material as well as a wealth of accurate picture references.

Edited March 2, 2016 by M Helsdon

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

13 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

I don't know regarding their re-release, but they mostly predate the Guide to Glorantha when the move towards more accurate pictorial representations picked up speed. The HeroQuest: Glorantha includes a great deal of accurate art, as will The Coming Storm volume 1. The latter is HeroQuest, not RuneQuest, but present a great deal of systemless background material as well as a wealth of accurate picture references.

Great info thanks. The Coming Storm 1 sounds intriguing. Does Kindom of Sartar , and Sartar Companion remain a key reference for Dragon Pass despite some illustrations not quite hitting the mark? Will they be revised in terms of written content, or is it considered in keeping with the Guide to Glorantha?

[M Helsdon]

1 minute ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

Great info thanks. The Coming Storm 1 sounds intriguing. Does Kindom of Sartar , and Sartar Companion remain a key reference for Dragon Pass despite some illustrations not quite hitting the mark? Will they be revised in terms of written content, or is it considered in keeping with the Guide to Glorantha?

Sartar: KoH and Sartar Companion remain key reference sources though only up to around 1621. The majority of the material remains valid, but of course the political situation is pretty fluid after that. The Coming Storm starts around the same time, but the campaign (in volume 2) runs on to the Dragonrise and beyond.

[Mankcam]

The pictorial depictions of Orlanthi in the Sartar books is quite varied. There are definitely illustrations of Orlanthi that are along the lines of Thracians, Dacians, Halstatt. However there are also Orlanthi that are looking more Celtic, Gallic, or Norse influenced, and these are deviating from the contemporary flavour a little. Some of the village pictures with Viking style Longhouses and such are probably a bit redundant now. Despite this, much of the art is still useable, and the content is well worth it.

Edited March 3, 2016 by Mankcam

[Jeff]

I had a much more limited art budget back then!

Edited March 3, 2016 by Jeff

[Noita]

"No art is better than bad art" as my old Sage used to tell me before we raided Kakstan's Art Museum...  

[Noita]

I think Apple Lane should remain as is, an odd quirky place, and a memento of the Old Glorantha which was never wrong/bad or inaccurate but fun.

It's where all the lost socks go.

Your Game may vary but is wrong cos it ain't mine.