A Question About Heortling Steads

[Mankcam]

lol 

Edited March 3, 2016 by Mankcam

[soltakss]

2 hours ago, Iskallor said:

"No art is better than bad art" as my old Sage used to tell me before we raided Kakstan's Art Museum...  

You obviously haven't seen my art (Drawing 5%).

Edited March 3, 2016 by soltakss

[jajagappa]

14 hours ago, Iskallor said:

"No art is better than bad art" as my old Sage used to tell me before we raided Kakstan's Art Museum...  

Then hopefully you left Daughters of Darkness behind there. ;-)

[Joerg]

2 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Then hopefully you left Daughters of Darkness behind there. ;-)

You need kindling for a cooking fire...

[Noita]

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

You need kindling for a cooking fire...

You sound just like my old sage.

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

Following on from the questions about heortling steads,what are the best sources for visualising the cities and towns in Sartar, like Boldholm and jonstown? 

Edited March 4, 2016 by Paid a bod yn dwp

[Joerg]

Boldhome: a hodgepodge of different influences.

The tribal manors resemble any old rural town. The Pockets are more extreme than Minas Tirith, with some flavor of pueblos, or with the Cappadocian cave houses. The central part of the city resembles New Pavis with roofs.

Jonstown resembles a gaulic oppidum. Smaller than Manching.

Basically, I would use Iron Age or Viking Age reconstructions of middle-European cities, since the climatic conditions are comparable, as are the available building materials. It doesn't matter much whether you take Slavic towns (like Spandau or Mecklenburg), Viking towns (Hedeby, Jorvik aka York), or Roman Iron Age towns like Manching, Gergovia.

I wouldn't go for Mediterranean architecture north of the Shadow Plateau. In much of Kethaela, that could be appropriate, maybe excepting the Heortland plateau.

But you can also look to pre-Columbian America, like the Mississippi mound culture and its neighbors, or the Inca architecture as preserved in Machu Picchu.

 

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

Boldhome: a hodgepodge of different influences.

 

 

Thanks. That's  a lot of info.

Boldholm seems quite different compared to the other settlements in Sartar, with its scale and echoes  of Minas Tirith.

it makes sense that settlements in Sartar would be fortified with walls, and/ or similar to hill forts. 

[jajagappa]

6 hours ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

Following on from the questions about heortling steads,what are the best sources for visualising the cities and towns in Sartar, like Boldholm and jonstown? 

For Boldhome, the Storm Season picture in GtG is probably the best starting point.  It's an odd layout with its varied 'Pockets' set into the mountainside.  That picture combined with the map in Sartar Kingdom of Heroes should provide a decent visualization.

For Jonstown and other Sartarite cities, I'd start with the maps in Sartar Companion and then overlay with Joerg's suggestions on building styles.

[M Helsdon]

7 hours ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

Following on from the questions about heortling steads,what are the best sources for visualising the cities and towns in Sartar, like Boldholm and jonstown? 

Several are shown as semi-maps in Sartar:KoH (Boldhome, Swenstown, Wilmskirk) and Sartar Companion (Jonstown, Runegate)  .

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

Thanks guys that's helpful. These are the sorts of details that need to be well illustrated to make it really accessible. It's a rich detailed background, but not everyone has easy access to Bronze Age references at this level of variety and detail. Holding out high hopes for the new Runequest to bring us a level of quality and authenticity in its illustration of Glorantha. The illustration of the sable rider in the designer notes  gives me hope.

thanks again 

[Steve]

21 hours ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

Following on from the questions about heortling steads,what are the best sources for visualising the cities and towns in Sartar, like Boldholm and jonstown? 

Do you have Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes and the Sartar Companion? Lots of stuff including diagrams of those towns. Even though the books are designed for HQ, since that's a narrative system they have very little rules stuff in them, so are usable with any game system, e.g. RQ.

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

2 hours ago, Steve said:

Do you have Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes and the Sartar Companion? Lots of stuff including diagrams of those towns. Even though the books are designed for HQ, since that's a narrative system they have very little rules stuff in them, so are usable with any game system, e.g. RQ.

No I haven't got those. Do they have illustrations of typical orlanthi settlements,or are they just plans? They sound like the best reference yet for Sartar. Presumably they are more thorough in background then previous Runequest stuff?

[M Helsdon]

19 hours ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

No I haven't got those. Do they have illustrations of typical orlanthi settlements,or are they just plans? They sound like the best reference yet for Sartar. Presumably they are more thorough in background then previous Runequest stuff?

They have illustrated overviews of various settlements, ranging from cities (though most Sartarite cities are more like towns) and villages.

[Mankcam]

The HQ Sartar books are the best content you will currently find on the Orlanthi of Sartar.

They do not have too much in the way of game stats for HQ, so you can use them as references for any system really, so no issues porting it to RQ.

I think they are more or less consistent with current interpretations of Orlanthi, although occasionally some artwork probably a little too much Celtic or Saxon flavour. There are still alot of depictions that are probably more Thracian or Dacian influenced, which I think may be a closer fit to the Orlanthi at present. I'm not so sure about those longhouses and roundhouses though, I think they may not be correct for Orlanthi steads these days - earlier references to Orlanthi houses were square shaped with open courtyards, resembling the Earth Rune; these descriptions were in the RQ2 Pavis supplements, and were reprinted in the HQ Pavis book as well, and Jeff indicated that he agreed with these depictions. However the books also have a bit of content on the Orlanthi cities, which would still be more or less accurate I think, and it's great for having maps of Boldhome, Jonstown, etc.

I think that most of the content is valid, and well worth the price if you want to know about the Orlanthi. 

From what I can gather, there is an upcoming HQ campaign that will help flesh out the contemporary depictions of Orlanthi quite well, and many of us are patiently waiting for it. I'll use it for RQ, regardless of whether it is for HQ or not; these things are pretty easy to port across.

For what it is worth, I am portraying Orlanthi as a mix of Thracians and Dacians, with a few Norse influences here and there (more from the History Channel's 'Vikings' television series show rather than the classic Norse stereotypes). I think the Dacians may be the best fit if any one culture needs to be referenced however.

Edited March 6, 2016 by Mankcam

[M Helsdon]

4 hours ago, Mankcam said:

From what I can gather, there is an upcoming HQ campaign that will help flesh out the contemporary depictions of Orlanthi quite well, and many of us are patiently waiting for it. I'll use it for RQ, regardless of whether it is for HQ or not; these things are pretty easy to port across.

For what it is worth, I am portraying Orlanthi as a mix of Thracians and Dacians, with a few Norse influences here and there (more from the History Channel's 'Vikings' television series show rather than the classic Norse stereotypes). I think the Dacians may be the best fit if any one culture needs to be referenced however.

The Coming Storm is fairly rich in depictions of Sartarites, and almost system free. Volume 2 will feature the adventures; Volume 1 has the history, locations and people. In addition to a Thracian/Dacian influence there's a fairly strong Mycenaean one as well.

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

Thanks Mankcam & M Helsdon. I feel much more comfortable with this idea of the orlanthi depictions influenced by Thracian/Dacian & Mycenaean. That's much more like the idea i appreciated in RQ2, and a big reason why it was such an appealing setting. 

Glad it seems to be going in a really good direction once again. I shall bare in mind the info on the orlanthi buildings resembling the shape of the square earth rune, and courtyard. 

With that in mind I'll almost certainly revisit the pavis and big rubble book I have stored away, and out of curiosity I'm sure I'll be getting my hands on Sartar kingdom of heroes , Sartar companion, and the very intriguing Coming Storm. It sounds very promising...not to mention the new Runequest. 

 

 

 

 

[Joerg]

The Heortling stead IMG usually consists of a main longhouse in the back of the enclosed stead court, and two shorter rectangular buildings along the enclosure, with lesser cottages as semi-dug in roundhouses for workshops. This pattern appears to have been in use in Anglia (on the Cimbrian peninsula) for centuries, and may have been taken over to the Anglias in Britain, too.

A longhouse interior (especially the is chief's dais) shown in the Guide on page 34/35.

[Steve]

You won't regret investing in Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes and the Sartar Companion. Because they're quite sizeable books *and* are rule-lite, they are absolutely stuffed full with background on Sartar and its peoples, and also with enough scenario hooks to keep you going for years.

 

[Jeff]

14 hours ago, Joerg said:

The Heortling stead IMG usually consists of a main longhouse in the back of the enclosed stead court, and two shorter rectangular buildings along the enclosure, with lesser cottages as semi-dug in roundhouses for workshops. This pattern appears to have been in use in Anglia (on the Cimbrian peninsula) for centuries, and may have been taken over to the Anglias in Britain, too.

A longhouse interior (especially the is chief's dais) shown in the Guide on page 34/35.

The normal stead in Dragon Pass looks like this:

[Noita]

23 minutes ago, Jeff said:

The normal stead in Dragon Pass looks like this:

Makes me think of Roman villas. Is the roof flat?

Dont fancy that courtyard when it snows.

[Joerg]

2 minutes ago, Jeff said:

The normal stead in Dragon Pass looks like this:

Such a structure doesn't lend itself so easily to a good old steadburning than the longhouse, though... I cannot really see Brolarulf compose his immolation song in such a stead.

 

How many people are supposed to live here? A carl, his brothers, their male offspring, and their wives and kids, possibly a few elders, and how many dependents of lower status?

 

There are countless practical issues I have with this layout.

So all lifestock, all horses etc. are led through the entry hall (and in the second variant also through the guard room) into the courtyard, and then into the barn? Where do carts with the hay etc. enter?

(My model has something like a gate house, too.)

I'd be interested about the occupants of the inner hearth and the outer hearth, the whereabouts of seasonal farming tools (like sickles or plows) etc.

Seriously: the terms inner hearth and outer hearth would have implied to me that to enter the inner one you have to pass through the outer one.

How are the roofs arranged here? You don't build flat roofed houses in areas with high precipitation or snow in the winters. (Nowadays some idiot architects do regardless, and reap what they sowed in snow-rich winters...) My model has gables on side naves, and hipped roofs towards the long ends,

In fact - how is the inner court drained? Is there a cistern or a well in your ordinary steading? Where is the bath/sweat lodge? Are there no places for the fowl?

This model looks awfully much like a Roman villa, and not much like anything with thatch or wooden shingles on inclined roofs. It may work for flat roofed houses in dry areas, too.

[Noita]

1 minute ago, Joerg said:

Such a structure doesn't lend itself so easily to a good old steadburning than the longhouse, though... I cannot really see Brolarulf compose his immolation song in such a stead.

 

How many people are supposed to live here? A carl, his brothers, their male offspring, and their wives and kids, possibly a few elders, and how many dependents of lower status?

 

There are countless practical issues I have with this layout.

So all lifestock, all horses etc. are led through the entry hall (and in the second variant also through the guard room) into the courtyard, and then into the barn? Where do carts with the hay etc. enter?

(My model has something like a gate house, too.)

I'd be interested about the occupants of the inner hearth and the outer hearth, the whereabouts of seasonal farming tools (like sickles or plows) etc.

Seriously: the terms inner hearth and outer hearth would have implied to me that to enter the inner one you have to pass through the outer one.

How are the roofs arranged here? You don't build flat roofed houses in areas with high precipitation or snow in the winters. (Nowadays some idiot architects do regardless, and reap what they sowed in snow-rich winters...) My model has gables on side naves, and hipped roofs towards the long ends,

In fact - how is the inner court drained? Is there a cistern or a well in your ordinary steading? Where is the bath/sweat lodge? Are there no places for the fowl?

This model looks awfully much like a Roman villa, and not much like anything with thatch or wooden shingles on inclined roofs. It may work for flat roofed houses in dry areas, too.

We posted at the same time. I have exactly the same problems. It would suit a drier climate.

Drainage and snow is just going destroy that place.

[Joerg]

1 minute ago, Iskallor said:

We posted at the same time. I have exactly the same problems. It would suit a drier climate.

Drainage and snow is just going destroy that place.

Well, Roman villas with moderately inclined roofs did survive in Britain and south of the Danubian limes.

Another major problem is the duplication of the hearthfire, and putting it against the exterior wall. You don't do that if you expect to spend a winter in the structure. Since the neolithic, the hearth fire in temperate climate was the center of the living area, with the life stock in the far end of the combined house, so you had only to keep up one place fireproof and warm. Low level guests would be housed in the same hall, on the central part of the house, while family usually stayed on the outer end of the fireplace. High level guests would get to used the family beds.

I guess having spent at least one winter north of the arctic circle does change one's outlook...

[Jeff]

2 minutes ago, Iskallor said:

We posted at the same time. I have exactly the same problems. It would suit a drier climate.

Drainage and snow is just going destroy that place.

For style, look at old houses built around a courtyard in the Vinschgau or other parts of Alto-Adige (I took plenty of pictures of stone and timber houses some 4 or 5 centuries old built around a courtyard in the Vinschgau). Although the western slopes get as much as 175cm of precipitation, the eastern slopes and protected valleys get closer to 75 cm. Roof is slanted and covered with wood, thatch, stone tiles or terracotta tiles.