A Question About Heortling Steads

[M Helsdon]

3 hours ago, Joerg said:

Two facets of the Irish heroic age have made it into the Orlanthi canon. Cattle as currency (not mentioned in any sources on continental practices - the iceland saga instances of wergeld which we assume to have carried over from the continental Norse use bags of silver measured by weight instead) and the wergeld catalogue (which basically adds a price tag to Old Testament's "an eye for an eye").

The activity of cattle raiding has a long tradition - it wasn't just practiced by the Old Irish, but appears in the Mahabharatha and in the Homeric Hymn to Hermes : 'Born with the dawning, at mid-day he played on the lyre, and in the evening he stole the cattle of far-shooting Apollo on the fourth day of the month; for on that day queenly Maia bare him.' Cattle as currency is similarly fairly universal, including in some modern cultures.

Whilst the term wergeld is Northern European, the concept is far older: many of the penalties for crime in the Law Codes of Hammurabi, for example, were fines (when it wasn't just death).

I fear you are seeing things as Northern European when they were far more universal activities - for that matter, some cultures continue to engage in cattle raiding, and they aren't Celts. Relatively recently a cattle-raid in east Africa left several hundred people dead.

Edited March 14, 2016 by M Helsdon

[Jeff]

On March 14, 2016 at 10:08 AM, M Helsdon said:

The activity of cattle raiding has a long tradition - it wasn't just practiced by the Old Irish, but appears in the Mahabharatha and in the Homeric Hymn to Hermes : 'Born with the dawning, at mid-day he played on the lyre, and in the evening he stole the cattle of far-shooting Apollo on the fourth day of the month; for on that day queenly Maia bare him.' Cattle as currency is similarly fairly universal, including in some modern cultures.

Whilst the term wergeld is Northern European, the concept is far older: many of the penalties for crime in the Law Codes of Hammurabi, for example, were fines (when it wasn't just death).

I fear you are seeing things as Northern European when they were far more universal activities - for that matter, some cultures continue to engage in cattle raiding, and they aren't Celts. Relatively recently a cattle-raid in east Africa left several hundred people dead.

For what it is worth raiding of cattle, sheep, and horses were common amongst the Navajos, Apaches, and Spanish (and later American) settlers in the US Southwest. This is hardly a Northern European thing.

[TRose]

 If I remember right, the Illiad mention Achilles going on a cattle raid against an ally of Troy and killing the sons of the King who where guarding the cattle. Nestor also mention  a cattle raid he conducted when he was young.

[Joerg]

Oh, I don't mind neighborly raids, whether for cattle, slaves, or other portable valuables. I address the cattle as exchange medium economy that prevails where coinage is rarely seen.

That has an Irish feeling to me - the exchange medium for wergeld etc. was (imported, whether by trade or raids) silver that was valued by weight. For lesser exchanges there were other natural units of exchange, like e.g. eggs or fowl.

The concept of personal property and exchange of values between steads or individuals on the steads is quite hard to grasp for us who grew up in the materialist/capitalist environment (that produced roleplaying as a pastime). That is also a learning step that the majority of the players don't want to take, I dare say.

We have the strange (and anachronistic - for a Bronze Age environment) situation of having a coin-based economy in cities like Pavis or Boldhome, also applied to gamist concepts like paying the trainers in classic RQ, and the attempt to depict a non-monetary economy that still has some appeal to players who like to measure their wealth, whether in coins or in other measures of exchange.

 

[Noita]

I shall try and pay for my 2 pt strength training in Pavis with a herd of 20 meat Bison next time I'm there, should work until I try and drive them up stairs into the training room.

 

 

[M Helsdon]

17 hours ago, Joerg said:

We have the strange (and anachronistic - for a Bronze Age environment) situation of having a coin-based economy in cities like Pavis or Boldhome, also applied to gamist concepts like paying the trainers in classic RQ, and the attempt to depict a non-monetary economy that still has some appeal to players who like to measure their wealth, whether in coins or in other measures of exchange.

The first minted coins appeared around 700BC in the Iron Age, but given that coinage in Glorantha seems to have been invented by the dwarves, who have firearms, and numerous other pieces of high level techno-magical devices, it's a relatively minor anachronism... From a gaming point of view it simplifies having to carry around lumps of trade metal. And of course money-on-the-hoof doesn't have a fixed value but can go up and down in value, especially by time of year: after the winter live animals will be more valuable.

Edited March 18, 2016 by M Helsdon

[M Helsdon]

1 hour ago, Iskallor said:

I shall try and pay for my 2 pt strength training in Pavis with a herd of 20 meat Bison next time I'm there, should work until I try and drive them up stairs into the training room.

Even if the culture isn't familiar with a supply-and-demand economy, if the market is literally glutted with money-on-the-hoof, its worth will reduce.

Metal tends to have a more stable value because it is less common, and has numerous uses, in addition to being a unit of monetary exchange. (In the real world the political and military stature of the Athenian state went into a sharp decline after its silver mines started to run out.)

Edited March 18, 2016 by M Helsdon

[Joerg]

3 hours ago, Iskallor said:

I shall try and pay for my 2 pt strength training in Pavis with a herd of 20 meat Bison next time I'm there, should work until I try and drive them up stairs into the training room.

If it is strength training, aren't you supposed to carry them up? One at a time, for starters...

[Tindalos]

 

4 hours ago, Iskallor said:

I shall try and pay for my 2 pt strength training in Pavis with a herd of 20 meat Bison next time I'm there, should work until I try and drive them up stairs into the training room.

Of course there's also raw metal as an option, like the oxhide ingots mentioned in the guide. Equal in wealth to a cow, slightly more portable than one, although far less tasty.

To blow my own trumpet a bit, I've been working on a little something concerning coins, Orlanthi, and how they might have developed, which might be of interest on this subject. http://zzabursbrownbook.blogspot.co.uk/2016/03/coins-of-sartar.html

[Noita]

Instead of finding a hoard of coins it should be a herd of coins...

[soltakss]

On 3/14/2016 at 2:57 PM, Joerg said:

Two facets of the Irish heroic age have made it into the Orlanthi canon. Cattle as currency (not mentioned in any sources on continental practices - the iceland saga instances of wergeld which we assume to have carried over from the continental Norse use bags of silver measured by weight instead) and the wergeld catalogue (which basically adds a price tag to Old Testament's "an eye for an eye").

 

I thought the old Irish currency was based on the Slave Girl. 

 

[styopa]

This may sound weird, and not particularly easy, but if you want to see what I believe are terrific representations of Sartarite steadings and culture, play LOTRO and go to Rohan.  Ignoring the overtly Equine symbology, IMO it nails it.  I'll use screenshots from all over that game as "color" for my RQ campaign:

Could easily be Dangerford, viewed from the North.

 Could be an eastern view of Swenstown.

I couldn't find any pics online (if people want them, ill take a few and post them here) but close up the great halls, and the various houses are spot on: 

(the closest I could find was concept art):

Another:

And finally (a little off the topic) this could be a great shot of wintertop from the Dwarf Run side (see the entrance)

 

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, styopa said:

This may sound weird, and not particularly easy, but if you want to see what I believe are terrific representations of Sartarite steadings and culture, play LOTRO and go to Rohan.  Ignoring the overtly Equine symbology, IMO it nails it.

This is very (Anglo-) Saxon, with a Beowulf-like mead hall as main building on the steads. Including the horse heads.

On one hand, these are very nice visuals of the type of housing I was advocating early in this thread, and the Rohan version is perhaps the most picturesque variant of that. On the other hand, the Rohan culture is a culture of Vikings on horseback, and these are the "Norse" influences lamented by quite a few of the posters in this thread.

[M Helsdon]

Two Pavis variants of an 'Ernalda House'.

The first is a grand residence of an important and wealthy family; the second has been partitioned into two residences and a shop at the front, and a number of cramped apartments at the rear. The shop has access to the courtyard, and uses it as storage and an extension to the living quarters on the upper floor.

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

1 hour ago, M Helsdon said:

Two Pavis variants of an 'Ernalda House'.

The first is a grand residence of an important and wealthy family; the second has been partitioned into two residences and a shop at the front, and a number of cramped apartments at the rear. The shop has access to the courtyard, and uses it as storage and an extension to the living quarters on the upper floor.

Lots to like here. The shop front, and small apartments make sense. high up small windows and roof terrace are characterful pavic/sartarite details. Have to say Glorantha is really coming alive for me again, after a long hiatus.  These discussions, details,  combined with the Sartar webcomic are really establishing the ancient mythical Glorantha again in my mind. Very cool thanks.

[M Helsdon]

9 hours ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

Lots to like here. The shop front, and small apartments make sense. high up small windows and roof terrace are characterful pavic/sartarite details. Have to say Glorantha is really coming alive for me again, after a long hiatus.  These discussions, details,  combined with the Sartar webcomic are really establishing the ancient mythical Glorantha again in my mind. Very cool thanks.

Please bear in mind that my sketches are not canonical.

[styopa]

Orlanthi are Orlanthi and should look like Orlanthi.

Vikings are Vikings and should look like Vikings. Celts are Celts and should look like Celts. Same goes for Dark Age Germanic tribes. 

Orlanthi shouldn't look like Viking, Celts, Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Frisians, Franks or whatever.

I appreciate that some people build up a mental image of what cultures look like, but my mental image of Orlanthi is of wild men with tattoos and trews, normally carrying a spear/sword/axe and shield. 

So, Picts then?  "Orlanthi should look like Orlanthi" (and nothing else!) but what you've just described is a bog-standard Pict:

or maybe Cherusci:

I'm not attacking your particular vision, not at all.  It just seems a little ironic to insist that Orlanthi look 'nothing like' (list of barbaric cultures) and then describe precisely one that's nearly identical.

Saxons/Vikings/Celts/Whatever: people generally like visualizations of the world they're playing; the nuances of distinction here might matter to some of us, but I suspect that you show that picture of the Mycenean Warriors above to 99% of American gamers, and they would say "oh, vikings!" (because of the quasi-horns on their helmets) anyway....  

D&D is easy because it's such a (imo silly) caricature of an idealized medieval Europe (usually).  We have a little higher bar, but hey, many of us abandoned D&D because wanted a better-realized world in the first place.

I think Martin's sketches - as much as they may not be canonical - are terrific.  I'm adopting them.  How far one needs to go down the rabbit-hole of canon is entirely subjective anyway, quadruply so in Greg Stafford's world....

[soltakss]

Both of those fit my idea of Orlanthi, thanks.

 

 

[Mankcam]

These images are a bit more 'barbaric' than how I currently view the Esrolians, Sartarites, Tarshites, and New Pavisites.

However it is very much along the lines of how I envision the more rudimentary Orlanthi folk, such as the Dorastor settlers, or the Ditali, Solanthi, and Nimistori of Maniria.  

There is certainly room for variation whether they have an emphasis on Thraco-Dacian-Mycenaean elements, or whether they have heavy Anglo-Saxon influences. I guess the factors that bind them are that they are all descendants of the people of The Dawn Age whose culture has a heavy emphasis on Heroic ideology, and who predominantly worship the Storm and Earth pantheons.

Edited March 22, 2016 by Mankcam

[Joerg]

7 minutes ago, Mankcam said:

These images are a bit more 'barbaric' than how I currently view the Esrolians, Sartarites, Tarshites, and New Pavisites.

I guess this is mainly due to them being framed in a combat/ambush situation.

 

Especially the Viking culture is often reduced to the dragonship pirates and ignoring elaborate Thing rules, shrewd overseas or long range river trading, or seamless integration into the elite mercenary force of the Great Empire at Constantinople/Miklagard, alongside christian knights from e.g. Britain.

 

7 minutes ago, Mankcam said:

However it is very much along the lines of how I envision the more rudimentary Orlanthi folk, such as the Dorastor settlers, or the Ditali, Solanthi, and Nimistori of Maniria.  

There is certainly room for variation whether they have an emphasis on Thraco-Dacian-Mycenaean elements, or whether they have heavy Anglo-Saxon influences. I guess the factors that bind them are that they are all descendants of the people of The Dawn Age whose culture has a heavy emphasis on Heroic ideology, and who predominantly worship the Storm and Earth pantheons.

How exactly would you describe Anglo-Saxon influences? Are you talking about Nydam-boat riding invaders on the shores of Roman Britannia, or do you envision Northumbrians fending off invading Scoti from Ulster, Wessex guerillas stopping the expansion of the Danelaw in the bogs, or King Alfred's scholars translating classical knowledge into colloquial Anglo-Saxon, or the grand fusion of Anglo-Saxon and Danish culture under C(a)nute the Great?

LIkewise, how do you define Thraco-Dacian-Mycenaean elements? The Mycenaeans were gone for 15 centuries when the Dacians experienced a short spotlight in the reign of Trajan. The Thracians in the time of Belisarius were cataphract heavy cavalry, the epitome of knighthood in the late ancient world. In the time of Spartacus they appear to have been farmer-warriors like the Orlanthi.

 

If you are looking for an urban culture away from the Mediterranean, the oppida of the late Hallstatt and the La Tene period are the best place in Europe to look. The point about Orlanthi culture is that their farming is not relying on massive group efforts (like irrigation, land reclamation from wetlands) but that it works fine with small communities on comparatively friendly soil, furthering individualism rather than subordination to organizers.

[M Helsdon]

The problem is that although the Orlanthi may look similar to Celts, Anglo-Saxons, Picts, Vikings etc. all too often that similarity is taken as being the same as, meaning that inappropriate cultural beliefs, behaviors, architecture, art and so on are taken as being Orlanthi. And of course even those real-world templates are based on assumptions and short-hand descriptions which can be wildly misleading.

[Mankcam]

.

Edited March 23, 2016 by Mankcam

[Mankcam]

14 hours ago, Joerg said:

...the Viking culture is often reduced to the dragonship pirates and ignoring elaborate Thing rules, shrewd overseas or long range river trading, or seamless integration into the elite mercenary force of the Great Empire at Constantinople/Miklagard, alongside christian knights from e.g. Britain.

Yes, you are very right. Dark Ages Scandinavians have long been stereotyped based upon their Viking raiding parties, often excluding other facets of their the rich cultural background. I think that this may be starting to change however

Edited March 23, 2016 by Mankcam

[Mankcam]

13 hours ago, Joerg said:

How exactly would you describe Anglo-Saxon influences? Are you talking about Nydam-boat riding invaders on the shores of Roman Britannia, or do you envision Northumbrians fending off invading Scoti from Ulster, Wessex guerillas stopping the expansion of the Danelaw in the bogs, or King Alfred's scholars translating classical knowledge into colloquial Anglo-Saxon, or the grand fusion of Anglo-Saxon and Danish culture under C(a)nute the Great?

LIkewise, how do you define Thraco-Dacian-Mycenaean elements? The Mycenaeans were gone for 15 centuries when the Dacians experienced a short spotlight in the reign of Trajan. The Thracians in the time of Belisarius were cataphract heavy cavalry, the epitome of knighthood in the late ancient world. In the time of Spartacus they appear to have been farmer-warriors like the Orlanthi.

My reference of 'Ancient Thraco-Dacian-Mycenaeans' is meant to describe a fusion of vague cultural traits from those backgrounds, all thrown in together in an attempt to portray a culture unique to Glorantha. Any references of 'Anglo-Saxon-Norse-Celtic' influences is likewise. Just very broad brush strokes in order to portray a sense of a culture. I could have described Darra Happans as 'Persian-Assyrian-Hellenic' or Lunar Imperials as 'Persian-Assyrian-Roman', just to conjure up a sense of an ancient world style and culture. 

In much the same way people may describe Tolkien's Rohirrim as 'Vikings on Horses'; just a reference.point. 

I suppose I envision Thracians more along the lines of how they are portrayed in the time of Spartacus. As far as Anglo-Saxon, in my mind I think I am referencing pre-christian Saxons, Dark Ages Vikings, that kind of thing. 

I'm not sure if I have offended any ethnic sensibilities here by speaking with broad brushstrokes, and that certainly was not my intention. Please excuse my ignorance if this is the case.

I find mixing real world influences together helps get a sense of a culture in a fantasy setting.

 

Edited March 23, 2016 by Mankcam

[Mankcam]

14 hours ago, Joerg said:

If you are looking for an urban culture away from the Mediterranean, the oppida of the late Hallstatt and the La Tene period are the best place in Europe to look. The point about Orlanthi culture is that their farming is not relying on massive group efforts (like irrigation, land reclamation from wetlands) but that it works fine with small communities on comparatively friendly soil, furthering individualism rather than subordination to organizers.

Yes, I also use references of Halstatt and La Tene period for Theylans. The ancient cultures that Jeff has said are good reference points are Halstatt, Dacian, Thracian, and Mycenaean. Fuse elements of all these cultures together to get a sense of who the Orlanthi are, particularly in the Dragon Pass/Holy Country region. 

Oppida are a very good reference point, especially for villages and small towns. Most of the ones I have seen in pictures are fortified with timber palisades, although I suspect brick walls was also used at times.

This is how I view rural Sartarite villages, except the houses are square (earth rune shaped). Looks like a mix of masonry and timber in the design.

I'm using this one for a Manirian village, as the G2G indicates that their villages are primarily timber based:

However I feel the more urbanised settlements would better organised with stone villas and such, more in keeping with the Mycenaean citadels rather than large oppida. Something like this:

Or perhaps this:

Possibly a little too vanilla-Mycenaean in some ways, although they do remind me of the citadels of Balazar, which I think were initially Theylan in origin. 

 

(PS: I haven't worked out how to multi-quote yet, so sorry about the multiple separate posts)

Edited March 23, 2016 by Mankcam