A Question About Heortling Steads

[Mankcam]

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Edited April 11, 2016 by Mankcam

[Mankcam]

11 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Personally, I'd be happier if someone could list out the attributes of the different types of Orlanthi, so Esrolian Orlanthi would be different to Heortland Orlanthi, to Sartarite Orlanthi, to the orlanthi of Aggar or of Pamaltela. Perhaps that would be a lot to do, so maybe have a core "Orlanthiness" list of attributes and then a list where the Orlanthi types differ.

Now that's an excellent idea Simon

Edited April 11, 2016 by Mankcam

[Mankcam]

37 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Honestly, before Hero Wars came out, our Orlanthi were the least flavoured of the people. Praxians had a lot of background and flavour as did the Lunars, even the Oasis Folk and Pavisites had flavour, but the Orlanthi - nothing. They were in tribes, officially, but nothing was mentioned about the tribes in RQ2/RQ3,  Orlanth Adventurous was the cult of adventurers, people blown about by the winds. That was it.

That's pretty much how I remember it from RQ2/RQ3.

As mentioned earlier, before I saw the Orlanthi warrior in the RQ3 Glorantha Box I actually thought the Sartarites may have been more Hellenic, given the artwork from the RQ2 rule book and RQ2 Cults Of Prax. 

We only had Prax very detailed at that time, so I had no firm ideas of Dragon Pass, and my thoughts were more focused towards the Praxian cultures. When Hero Wars came out I had to considerably readjust my view of the Orlanthi. 

 

Edited April 11, 2016 by Mankcam

[Mankcam]

27 minutes ago, Mankcam said:

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Edited April 11, 2016 by Mankcam

[Joerg]

@Mankcam I do think that architecture does tell something about the lifestyle. As I said, I am fine with Vingkotling or Imarjan despots using Mycenaean architecture - that fits. These royals are remote enough from the common folk to warrant such architecture.

I can see why the neolithic European plow-farming culture (Corded Ware culture, which I still refer to as Battle Axe culture) feels Anglo-Saxon to you. The Anglo-Saxons inherited it, as did the Vikings, the Slavs, the Thracians, all the Migration peoples. Just keep in mind that it is not a defining element of that culture vs. lots of other continental farming cultures (possibly all the way to the Silk Road). You could call it Gothic - after all the Visigoths did assimilate oodles of other farming cultures before conquering Rome. You could call it Merowingian, Gallic, etc.

I like to look at Noricum for influences in Dragon Pass - the geography fits, the culture of independent farmers and continent-wide traders fits, and the Hallstatt culture is among the "canonical" influences of the Orlanthi. La Tene era cities like Manching and Kelheim inherited Greek urban planning while standardizing urban buildings so that there were no extreme differences in material status (at least among the "landed" class). The Hallstatt mine exported salt already when bronze came to them, and they were sitting on an important throughfare of the amber road that connected Mycenae and Egypt with the North Sea and Baltic amber producers. They aren't encumbered with a naval culture (unlike the Anglo-Saxons, Vikings, or Mycenaeans), which even reduces their need to cooperate. They still did, providing influentual crafters, adopting mediterranean and continental influences.

Like irrigation, the communal effort of ship building appears to support divine kingship. According to Snorre, all you needed to be called a King of Norway was a ship and a crew willing to sail with you to plunder elsewhere. By this reckoning, the Varangian guard must have had lots of royalty...

The Anglo-Saxons and the Franks required divine descent (I was taught that the Mercian warleader felt that lack quite acutely). Few of the Norwegian leaders could not trace their lineages back to the Ynglings, and a few of those proudly bore the title of Jarl instead (Rogaland, Trondheim, Orkneys).

@Jeff appears to be wary of the term "barbarian" for cultures of the Corded Ware level (whichever metal, if any, they are using). I am fine with it if used in the "not Greek culture" meaning (rather than in the Howardesque epithet of a certian Cimmerian savage). A pre- or proto-feudal society of plow-farming individualists is hard to fit into a single other catch-all term avoiding too much of a historical parrallel (otherwise I'd use "Corded Ware" or "Battle Axe" culture).

 

So, Quivini Heortlings aping Esrolian or Sylilan architecture (which in itself is a barbarianized alteration of Pelandan/Dara Happan architecture) - fine. Unlike Vandals, Visigoths or Franks they did not find a functional romanized culture when they settled they could assimilate to. Rather like the Anglo-Saxons, they chose not to ape the ruined EWF culture.

The settlement of Iceland is the only example of European settlers taking over a land inhabited only by Elder Races. (It also appears to be the only major island colonisation in the last 2.5 thousand years not immediately leading a large flightless bird into extinction - the great Auk (aka Penguin by the Welsh) survived well into the 17th century, probably thanks to its aquatic lifestyle. The Moa and the Elephant Bird with their land-bound habitat had no chance.)

 

@soltakss The History of the Heortling Peoples gives five rather different groups of Orlanthi in Heortland for starters, which roughly map to Esrolians, Esvulari, Pelaskites, Hendriki and south-Pelorian refugees. Esrolians come in a number of different flavors - Adjusted (storm-dominated), Warm Earth (Caladran influences but Grandmothers), Old Earth (Grandmothers). In a wider sense, Caladrans are Orlanthi, too, though no Heortlings (neither are Esvulari or Pelaskites). Arim united a different set of Pelorian refugees to Tarsh. If we look for distinct Theyalans in Peloria, we find the Sylilan bear worshippers, the Vanchite Raccoon folk, the Imtherians, the Sairdite dog folk, the Vingkotling-descended folk of Skanthi Wilds, Aggar and Holay, the Talastari, the Anadik(k)i, the Brolian cattle folk, and the gardeners of Dara Ni. The Bisosae of Pelanda might qualify, too - the bull people of Charg surely do.

Ralios, western Maniria and Fronela are more complicated. Here the Lightbringer missionaries were closely chased by migrating tribes from the Manirian core lands, or by missionaries and armies of the Bright Empire, and they found cultures with their own Gray Age leaders like the Dangkae, the Enjoreli or the Pendali. While there was a lot of subsequent leveling of influences, I think it is in the interest of diversity and local color to preserve idiosyncracies from these origins. (I am willing to point to the Vingkotling tribes for diversity within the core Heortling territory, too, especially when it comes to weird clan specialisations. The clan questionaire even takes adoptees from the Vingkotling Age into account, so I think looking this way is justified.) Then there are the Overseas Orlanthi of Jrustela (lost) and Umathela (threatened with extinction by the Slon Decamony).

 

When it comes to architecture and rural farm steads, we have two kinds of influences that we can exploit - ancestral (Dawn Age or even Storm Age) inheritances, and influences of conquerors or conquered (possibly extinct) cultures.

The list of conquerors is long - Kachasti, Vadeli, Waertagi, Seshnegi, Pendali, Galanini, Horse Nomads, Kingdom of Night (and other Shadowlands), Bright Empire, Arkat, Carmanians (twice - Lion Shahs and Bull Shahs), EWF, God Learners, Lunars, Sheng, Loskalm, Jonatela (could be seen as internal shift, but with enough external influences to count it, and twice - Jonat, and now Congern), Kingdom of War.

The list of reformers isn't much shorter - Heort, Ezkankekko, Lokamayadon, Hendrik, Aventus, Harmast, Arkat, Obduran, Isgangdrang, Alakoring, Ingolf, Varankol, Renvald, Jonat, Andrar, Jannisor, Hwarin Dalthippa, Arim, Sartar. I am not including people like Dan or Dari because their influence predated the Theyalan missionaries.

Ancestral influences can be slight and often weird. Vingkot ruled over the three Great Tribes, the Vingkotlings, the Helerings, and the Durevings. There were plenty other Storm Tribe peoples who later became subsumed under the "Orlanthi" culture, such as the Harandings, the Sylilings, Talastari, and lots of bull weirdness further west, the Enerali and other weirdness further southwest. The Vingkotlings again were nine tribes with rather different admixtures. The Kodigvari were conquerers of Old Esrolia, if you listen to the Grandmothers and their history, which may have been Dureving in nature, or a more primal earth culture, similar to the lost ones of Genert's Garden, the Likiti, or Ralios. The Koroltes are the Summer Tribe without any adoption, while the Vestantes and the Orgovaltes assimilated the husband folks. There were two winter tribes without adoption, the Lastralgortelli and the Jorganostelli, both of which sort of disbanded in the Vingkotling Age but survived as Star Tribes which adopted traits from their star captain leaders, and there were three more winter tribes with adopted husband tribes - a group of Hyalorings in the case of the Berennethtelli. Ulanin's rider folk may have been renegades from Genert's Garden (related to Pentans, or an outlawed Horse Founder of the Praxians) or a splinter group of Galanini. Porscriptor the Cannibal seems to have set the savage ways for the Skanthi, while Goralf Brown and Kastwall Five remain extremely undefined in published sources, but doubtlessly left their influences in the Orlanthi tribes of southern Peloria.

We know about the lesser folks of the Vingkotlings, who didn't form tribes of their own but got adopted into other clans - folks like the On Jorri (from whom Vingkot came), Nalda Bin etc., and of allies of the Vingkotlings like the Aramites.

We know of Orlanthi outside of the Vingkotling influence - Harandings (who might have been among the folk conquered by Kodig, possibly along with Caladrans, Pelaskites or Diroti), Sylilings, Talastari and others - who somehow came through the floods, the glaciation, and the Chaos Wars.

 

There have always been Orlanthi welcoming change, even enough change to turn them into different species (Kitori, Tusk Riders). And those who got hidebound once those changes had taken effect, and those welcoming more change. And fairly often renunciating the changes when they turn sour. While officially no participants in the EWF core lands alterations survived, there were many people who packed up when the draconic manna (their draconic hybrid breeds of lifestock and grain) failed in 1042 and who settled away from the then much overpopulated Dragon Pass, e.g. in hitherto uncleared forests of Heortland or less productive regions of Esrolia or Kotor. Others may have joined Saird rather than starve. They took care to leave anything which made them look draconic behind, except maybe for a few household secrets.

It is quite ironical that the masters of Change (the Hendriki) are one of the most conservative tribes, adamantly resisting changes to their ways, although quite happily changing their neighbors (Adjustment, Sartar).

 

In the Sartar Rising series we had tribal specialisations for weapons and for lifestock for the tribes of Sartar. I would like to add preferred architectural styles, though possibly broken down to clan level. If I look at the Colymar, I associate the four original clans with Esrolian housing - especially those involved in wine cultivation or earth temple business, but the Black Spear Clan should be using Hendriki lo(n)ghouse style instead since it imitates the Hendriki way. The Runegate clans with their more Solar background might have yet another preference - possibly something that allows a horse corral within the defended part of the stead. The Enjossi might have Pelaskite influences. The Varmandi strike me as old-fashioned, non-Esrolian style, too. No clear idea about the Hiordings. The Lunar friendly clans would imitate Lunar Tarsh or Sylila rather than Esrolia, and some might have done so even prior to 1602.

 

[Jon Hunter]

On 11/04/2016 at 11:41 AM, Joerg said:

...a great long post...

 

Brill, Kinda the variation I was pushing for.

[Mankcam]

 

I'll have to hunt down my copy of the History Of The Heortling People now for further perusal

Glorantha - very few other settings attract this level of detail and immersion; it's one of the reasons I really dig it - great post Joerg

Edited April 13, 2016 by Mankcam

[Noita]

Made a Pavis square house...

[M Helsdon]

47 minutes ago, Iskallor said:

Made a Pavis square house...

There would probably be stairs up to a roof terrace and a wall surrounding the roof.

[Noita]

13 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

There would probably be stairs up to a roof terrace and a wall surrounding the roof.

Its my birthday in two weeks. Need more lego...

[M Helsdon]

7 minutes ago, Iskallor said:

Its my birthday in two weeks. Need more lego...

Congratulations. Just say no! to more lego: it's habit forming.

[Byll]

1 hour ago, Iskallor said:

Made a Pavis square house...

YPMD...

 

[Mankcam]

Next thing we'll be seeing Glorantha Lego on the shelves...

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, Mankcam said:

Next thing we'll be seeing Glorantha Lego on the shelves...

are you planning to bankrupt us?

[Ali the Helering]

On ‎14‎/‎06‎/‎2016 at 10:28 AM, Mankcam said:

Next thing we'll be seeing Glorantha Lego on the shelves...

At least we will then be able to use our vast supply of My Little Ponies as Goldeneyes and Diakos....

[Alex]

On 09/03/2016 at 6:33 PM, Joerg said:

The variations are slight, comparable to being on the equator at the equinoxes. For all practical purposes, the sun is overhead at noon. The full force of the noon sun will hit the roof.

I don't know that the current canonical slightness is -- guess I should actually read that section of the Guide! -- but back in the day, one idea was that the sun at noon was by-and-large inside the Upper Sky in celestiological terms, except for close to the Winter Solstice.  That gives getting on for half the variation one sees on Earth.  (Though as you say, in a way that's weirdly quasi-tropical compared to mid-latitudes expectations -- as conditioned by both poster location, and the most obvious cultural "analogues".)

[Joerg]

On 30.6.2016 at 1:45 AM, Alex said:

I don't know that the current canonical slightness is -- guess I should actually read that section of the Guide! -- but back in the day, one idea was that the sun at noon was by-and-large inside the Upper Sky in celestiological terms, except for close to the Winter Solstice.  That gives getting on for half the variation one sees on Earth.  (Though as you say, in a way that's weirdly quasi-tropical compared to mid-latitudes expectations -- as conditioned by both poster location, and the most obvious cultural "analogues".)

Your quote made me realize that I meant an equatorial position at the solstices, not the equinoxes.

And yes, except for the seasonal variations in day length, Glorantha is a tropical setting when it comes to the course of the sun. Which means fairly short periods of dusk and pre-dawn half-light, and none of that "never quite dark around midsummer" nonsense you get north of 50°. (Not to mention craziness like the arctic midnight sun). Almost as weird as the Sunstop situation you get on Ringworld.

[Alex]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Your quote made me realize that I meant an equatorial position at the solstices, not the equinoxes.

Actually, I think you were right about this the first time!  Again I really should check against the Guide in detail, but I strongly suspect this angle's made it into Brave New Canon, from some factoids I gleaned in passing at EternalCon. Coffcoff, is there a reliable utterance for summoning an Ian Cooper to these parts?  Coff.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

And yes, except for the seasonal variations in day length, Glorantha is a tropical setting when it comes to the course of the sun. Which means fairly short periods of dusk and pre-dawn half-light, and none of that "never quite dark around midsummer" nonsense you get north of 50°. (Not to mention craziness like the arctic midnight sun). Almost as weird as the Sunstop situation you get on Ringworld.

While I think that for all the obvious lozengey reasons day length is indeed invariant across the entire surface world, I'd be inclined to salvage a little bit of RW flavour by having twilight length depend strongly on both "latitude" and day of the year.  Obviously north of the arctic circle is the equivalent of the Heroplane, though!

I'm conscious that having slightly zombied this thread, this is now pretty much not-at-all relevant to stead design (on which there's some superb material herein, btw!).  So maybe we should consider a separate thread, if we're going to go all solar, for its own sake.

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

So with the arrival of the Coming Storm, do those that have read it feel like it's Clarifying  Orlanthi identity from previous publications? How are the Orlanthi steads portrayed? Are they like the square esrolian influenced steads?  

Edited July 13, 2016 by Paid a bod yn dwp

[Mankcam]

Well I haven't had time to really give it a good look yet. However from what I can initially see, surprisingly the Steads don't appear to be along the lines of the Earth Rune influenced square structures like what Jeff posted.

The village has descriptions of long houses and shows them as such on the map. So I am unsure if the square design discussed earlier in the thread is an urban Orlanthi house opposed to a rural Orlanthi house, or if it is an Esrolian house opposed to a Sartarite house.

I will need to take a further look to clarify, but from a quick glance it appears that rectangular longhouses may be the norm for this region. Perhaps the houses Jeff described are in the upcoming second volume?

Edited July 13, 2016 by Mankcam

[Noita]

Its a good example of how Glorantha should just be how you want it. Square, rectangular, triangular or circular. 

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

4 hours ago, Mankcam said:

Well I haven't had time to really give it a good look yet. However from what I can initially see, surprisingly the Steads don't appear to be along the lines of the Earth Rune influenced square structures like what Jeff posted.

The village has descriptions of long houses and shows them as such on the map. So I am unsure if the square design discussed earlier in the thread is an urban Orlanthi house opposed to a rural Orlanthi house, or if it is an Esrolian house opposed to a Sartarite house.

I will need to take a further look to clarify, but from a quick glance it appears that rectangular longhouses may be the norm for this region. Perhaps the houses Jeff described are in the upcoming second volume?

It would be good to get some clarity on the reason for this from Jeff.

Are the vikingesque steads because these are "frontier" Orlanthi? Where do we find the square steads? 

[Mankcam]

Well I would of thought the Esrolian steads would work well using the Earth Rune square floor plans. However the published information on Pavis has fortified square  steads for the Orlanthi settlers whom originated from Sartar. So this indicates that some Sartarites follow the square floor plan structure, and Jeff reinforced this earlier in the thread.

So I am tentatively presuming that the square structure may be an urban design or a wealthy design. I will really need to read more of The Coming Storm before I speculate further, and perhaps the second volume may have more information about this.

Edited July 14, 2016 by Mankcam

[Mankcam]

3 minutes ago, Mankcam said:

 

 

Edited July 14, 2016 by Mankcam

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

Hi Jeff,

Could you clarify our discussion here on the square Orlanthi steads in Sartar in light of the publication of the Coming Storm?

Does the Coming Storm represent a different perspective/approach on Orlanthi Culture, or is it representing a culturally different part of Sartar?