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A Question About Heortling Steads


SNaomiScott

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Not everything in Glorantha has to be cultural.

Some people prefer round houses, some square. Some steads are this shape, some are that shape. Some steads are different to others because that's we build our steads.

 

Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. 

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Jonstown Compendium author. Find my contributions here

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All good points and ones already discussed.

I guess the issue is regarding why the descriptions of longhouses were discouraged earlier in the thread (which was the general presumption), and then this was reinforced by posted floor plans of square shaped houses with court yards.

It was stated that the longhouses of earlier depictions would not be seen in The Coming Storm, which does not appear to be the case.

We had seen previous references for the Earth Rune shaped housing design, but presumed it was an Esrolian thing. However then it was presented as being a more widespread Theylan design, made with different materials according to region (wood & daube thru to masonary).

I feel that due to their size it may be an indication of wealth, likely to be seen amongst Thanes and Chieftains etc, although it may be more widespread in urban settlements as well.

I guess its important as it does help present a cultural description to a settlement.

Maybe more on this in The Coming Storm Part Two?

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" Sure it's fun, but it is also well known that a D20 roll and an AC is no match against a hefty swing of a D100% and a D20 Hit Location Table!"

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Some newer ideas about house shape post-date The Coming Storm. So we tend to use the older term of long-house, and would concieve them as being as depicted in Sartar:Kingdom of Heroes.

Some things to note. The first is that it is hard to depend too-heavily on terrestial analogues. However, in Europe, Dragon Pass is climatically most similiar to areas like Translyvania and you can think of the Esrolia in the model as equivalent to the settlements around the Black Sea. I'll let Jeff offer up the US equivalents. Jeff and I argued back and forth on analogue cultures. I tend to see Orlanthi is more Central European and on the cusp of the Iron Age, he tends to see them as more Mediterranean and earlier in the Bronze Age. But the best conclusion I think you should draw is that the Orlanthi represent Indo-European Bronze Age peoples, particularly from Cental and Southern Europe. The north is less of an influence than it was in past thinking.

I'm fond of looking at a couple of 'mixed' culture when considering the Orlanthi. Bronze Age Romania: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistory_of_Transylvania#Bronze_Age and the Etruscans:

With that said I would offer that house shape tends to depend both on available local building materials, climate, as well as custom.

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1 hour ago, Ian Cooper said:

Some newer ideas about house shape post-date The Coming Storm. So we tend to use the older term of long-house, and would concieve them as being as depicted in Sartar:Kingdom of Heroes.

Some things to note. The first is that it is hard to depend too-heavily on terrestial analogues. However, in Europe, Dragon Pass is climatically most similiar to areas like Translyvania and you can think of the Esrolia in the model as equivalent to the settlements around the Black Sea. I'll let Jeff offer up the US equivalents. Jeff and I argued back and forth on analogue cultures. I tend to see Orlanthi is more Central European and on the cusp of the Iron Age, he tends to see them as more Mediterranean and earlier in the Bronze Age. But the best conclusion I think you should draw is that the Orlanthi represent Indo-European Bronze Age peoples, particularly from Cental and Southern Europe. The north is less of an influence than it was in past thinking.

I'm fond of looking at a couple of 'mixed' culture when considering the Orlanthi. Bronze Age Romania: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistory_of_Transylvania#Bronze_Age and the Etruscans:

With that said I would offer that house shape tends to depend both on available local building materials, climate, as well as custom.

Thanks for this. It's really helpful to see where the writers are coming from, particularly with the varied history of Gloranthan interpretations. Good to see that there is less overall Northern European influence on orlanthi culture. More in keeping with RQ 2 conceptions.

Where does this leave the square Orlanthi stread idea mentioned by Jeff? For me it seemed to make sense with the RQ 2 Pavis square Orlanthi houses. I couldn't see how long houses could translate to the Pavis imported Orlanthi building style? 

I can't help but feel that the more southern ancient Bronze Age idea of Orlanthi fits better with the Classic Runequest depictions and feeling. But your interpretations are also a welcome change from the overly Norse/ Saxon influence of the recent past. 

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I'd agree btw on the RQ2 bronze age feel being much more Greek. I would say that both Greece and Rome could be Orlanthi cultures (Rome would not be Lunar), though the usual Hellenic period depicted in that era was probably a little off, except for the more civilized regions.

The issue with square houses in Sartar goes like this. I want to put a roof on my house, because no one who lives anywhere with high rainfall or snowfall is going to have a flat roof unless they enjoy catching drips in the helmets of their enemies (or even having the whole thing collapse). Now I'm not a structural engineer but although you can build a sloping roof on a square house you need a box frame, and its easier to build one using an A-Frame. So all things being equal an A-Frame makes more sense at this technical level in wet and cold climates for a typical rural house. In the cities, folks may have the money for a box frame.

In addition, if you have a cattle byre in the building then its akin to slapping a barn onto your house, which will tend to lengthen it.

I don't think this is quite a viking longhouse though, more wattle and daub walls, and tiled roof than 'log cabin' or turf walls.

I still think S:KoH gets it right for Sartar, here and here. This definitely isn't a viking longhouse but was the model used for descriptions in TCS.

Pavis might well have flat-roofed square houses by contrast, built with brick or stone. I expect people sleep on the roof in the heat of summer.

As a rule, houses reflect environment - unless there are strong cultural reasons not to change.

 

 

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BTW Villanovan culture, which is Urnfield and Halstatt with a growing Greek influence, and gives way to Etruscan is perhaps a more period appropriate culture than the Etruscans themselves.

They lived in northern Italy, which is not a bad DP analogue. Their houses looked more like a 'longhouse' than a square house:

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4 hours ago, Ian Cooper said:

Dragon Pass is climatically most similiar to areas like Translyvania and you can think of the Esrolia in the model as equivalent to the settlements around the Black Sea. I'll let Jeff offer up the US equivalents

For Esrolia, I tend to think of Georgia and South Carolina with a humid sub-tropical climate with mild winters and hot summers. 

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57 minutes ago, Ian Cooper said:

I'd agree btw on the RQ2 bronze age feel being much more Greek. I would say that both Greece and Rome could be Orlanthi cultures (Rome would not be Lunar), though the usual Hellenic period depicted in that era was probably a little off, except for the more civilized regions.

The issue with square houses in Sartar goes like this. I want to put a roof on my house, because no one who lives anywhere with high rainfall or snowfall is going to have a flat roof unless they enjoy catching drips in the helmets of their enemies (or even having the whole thing collapse). Now I'm not a structural engineer but although you can build a sloping roof on a square house you need a box frame, and its easier to build one using an A-Frame. So all things being equal an A-Frame makes more sense at this technical level in wet and cold climates for a typical rural house. In the cities, folks may have the money for a box frame.

In addition, if you have a cattle byre in the building then its akin to slapping a barn onto your house, which will tend to lengthen it.

I don't think this is quite a viking longhouse though, more wattle and daub walls, and tiled roof than 'log cabin' or turf walls.

I still think S:KoH gets it right for Sartar, here and here. This definitely isn't a viking longhouse but was the model used for descriptions in TCS.

Pavis might well have flat-roofed square houses by contrast, built with brick or stone. I expect people sleep on the roof in the heat of summer.

As a rule, houses reflect environment - unless there are strong cultural reasons not to change.

 

 

Thanks for your perspective here. It's very helpful that you make the distinction of Orlanthi long houses from the Viking long houses. Those pictures help too.

I guess the flat roofed/ low tilt roof could be more common in the southern Esrolia region?

Is the square earth rune stead idea voiced by Jeff, still relevant in northern parts of Sartar but perhaps with A-framed roofs?

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I still love the strong ancient Greek flavour of RQ2. There is something very stirring about that imagery in a fantasy context. Certainly it's much more popularly understood. Strong mythic and heroic connotations.  Has a hell of a lot to do with the soul of RQ2 I think, and it's popular appeal. Though I  appreciate that Glorantha is more complicated then that. But you can't beat close Ancient Greek analogies for accessibility 

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The images of Orlanthi in The Coming Storm are certainly a lot less norse /saxon/celtic than RQ3/Hero Wars illustrations.

Much more Dacian, Thracian, Mycenaean, Etruscan influenced like the suggestions above have indicated. Some great pictures of Orlanthi throughout the book, I get a much better sense of their overall look now. 

The houses in the region covered by this book are longhouses, but if you picture them with tiled roofs then it helps with the visualisation of a Bronze Age culture flavour, particularly that of Indo-European origins.

Edited by Mankcam
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7 hours ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

Thanks for your perspective here. It's very helpful that you make the distinction of Orlanthi long houses from the Viking long houses. Those pictures help too.

I guess the flat roofed/ low tilt roof could be more common in the southern Esrolia region?

Is the square earth rune stead idea voiced by Jeff, still relevant in northern parts of Sartar but perhaps with A-framed roofs?

The Earth Rune shape is the most popular in Sartar. You will find it throughout Colymar-land, Malani-land, Killard Vale, Chormsvale, and of course in Boldhome.

But not everywhere. 

There's a lot of variation from village to village - the Earth Rune shape is just the most popular overall.

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I am thinking that the more urbanised the settlements are, perhaps the more Mycenaean and Etruscan flavour they have; they more regionalised or rural they are, life gets a bit more rudimentary and the more Dacian they get. Not sure if this helps others, but this spectrum helps me visualise things a bit.

For those that had the original RQ2 box, I am thinking that even old Apple Lane works so much better now fitting in with this kind of analogy, rather than trying to re-trap it as a saxon/celtic style village. There is something vaguely Villa Novan/Etruscan about it in my opinion, so I do like these contemporary Orlanthi depictions.

 

Edited by Mankcam
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For me. Heroic Greece has the same problem as VIkings - the lack of boats and ships in the land-locked Orlanthi. Anything Danubian works fine, though.

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Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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There's a pretty broad degree of cultural similarity (and also tremendous diversity) across southern Europe to Anatolia in the Bronze Age. There are central European thalos graves that wouldn't look out of place at Mycenae, and houses in prehistoric Romanian that wouldn't look out of place in Etruria. That same range can be found from Nochet to Mirin's Cross.

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The basic Earth Rune 'square house' resembles two long-halls joined by two smaller halls (or a long-hall and a barn), surrounding a square courtyard. The extent of the roof is therefore well within the bounds of A frame construction and does not require especially long timbers.

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4 hours ago, Mankcam said:

I am thinking that the more urbanised the settlements are, perhaps the more Mycenaean and Etruscan flavour they have; they more regionalised or rural they are, life gets a bit more rudimentary and the more Dacian they get. Not sure if this helps others, but this spectrum helps me visualise things a bit.

For those that had the original RQ2 box, I am thinking that even old Apple Lane works so much better now fitting in with this kind of analogy, rather than trying to re-trap it as a saxon/celtic style village. There is something vaguely Villa Novan/Etruscan about it in my opinion, so I do like these contemporary Orlanthi depictions.

 

Yes. Apple lane is a bit of a marker for me. This idea of Novan/Etruscan villa fits much better for me. Viking was just completely the wrong vibe. I like the idea of tiled roofs too.

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26 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

The basic Earth Rune 'square house' resembles two long-halls joined by two smaller halls (or a long-hall and a barn), surrounding a square courtyard. The extent of the roof is therefore well within the bounds of A frame construction and does not require especially long timbers.

And much of the depiction of a 'household' in TCS consists of a walled group of buildings, i.e. a courtyard surrounded by long-halls, outbuildings, and barns. (It came from some archival notes of Greg's). So I expect actual difference between the two is minor. As I say, TCS pre-dates some of the 'square house' thinking though.

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The "Incomplete rune" architecture with runic outlines, but only partial buildings isn't exactly new - witness the New Pavis knowledge temple.

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Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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27 minutes ago, Ian Cooper said:

And much of the depiction of a 'household' in TCS consists of a walled group of buildings, i.e. a courtyard surrounded by long-halls, outbuildings, and barns. (It came from some archival notes of Greg's). So I expect actual difference between the two is minor. As I say, TCS pre-dates some of the 'square house' thinking though.

I suspect that the square-house meme includes a very great deal of variation in execution. So whilst TCS doesn't have any explicitly square houses (though a few on the settlement maps come close) it isn't by any means non-canonical. It's a little like the idea that Iron Age houses in Britain were all circular - most were but not all.

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25 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

I suspect that the square-house meme includes a very great deal of variation in execution. So whilst TCS doesn't have any explicitly square houses (though a few on the settlement maps come close) it isn't by any means non-canonical. It's a little like the idea that Iron Age houses in Britain were all circular - most were but not all.

Yes absolutely. Or that all houses in Bronze Age Transylvania looked the same. Or even that ancient Greek houses were all the same.

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I guess this is all about creating the right 'vibe' to portray the Orlanthi, rather than sterile uniformity. 

So the Indo-European Bronze Age feel is the main thing to go for when using real world analogies to help players create a mental picture of the Orlanthi.

One thing I really like about The Coming Storm is that there are so many pictures of a wide variety of Orlanthi people. This is a very practical tool for showing the players who they are. Those b&w drawings are great. Also the trimmings of the book edges feels more Thracian than british saxon/celt, so all these things add up to create a good visual of who these people are. The warrior on the front cover would not look out of place from the Mycenaean Age, just like the RQ2 cover, so this nicely ties it back a little closer to my original impressions of the Orlanthi from all those years ago.

Edited by Mankcam
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" Sure it's fun, but it is also well known that a D20 roll and an AC is no match against a hefty swing of a D100% and a D20 Hit Location Table!"

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Definitely hope to see more of her depictions in upcoming Gloranthan products, regardless of whether they are for HeroQuest or RuneQuest

 

Edited by Mankcam
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