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D&D 4th edition rules and what we can learn from them...


AikiGhost

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I know that this isn't a D&D forum and that many BRP players historically have issues with D&D (I know I did) but some of the things being done with D&D 4th edition look mechanically very interesting and so I thought Id post a thread about them. Speciafially things like "Healing Surges" and per encounter and per day effects and spells. Also the rationalisation of spell lengths to a tiered system of Instant, Encounter length, Scene Length, Adventure Length, etc

From a D&D 4th ed blog, facts & rumors

Dungeons and Dragons 4th Edition » Facts / Rumors

Character Changes

* Characters will go to 30 levels in the PHB rather than 20.

These 30 levels are organized into three tiers. 1-10 is called the “Heroic” tier, which is similar to 3e at low to mid levels. 11-20 is called the “Paragon” tier, where characters become more powerful and can begin to take on greater threats (small dragons, etc.) - it’s similar to low to mid teens in 3e. 21-30 is the “Epic” tier, where characters now tackle issues of planary and cosmic importance. One thing WotC mentioned was that the game will play similarly at all tiers, it’s just that the scope of the stories will change.

* The only difference in the classes are their ’special ability’ talent trees. Essentially, every other level you get a new ‘talent’, many of which have prerequisites of other talents. So if you want the ability to reroll an attack roll once per day (a rogue ability) you might need the talent to reroll a skill check once per day. Sneak Attack is a talent, so if you want full Sneak Attack, you have to give up all these special abilities.

* Fighters will play differently based on their primary weapon choice. Examples include swords being allowed to make multiple attacks at lower levels (3rd at highest), hammers being more effective based on Con score, and spears being able to “go past AC” (probably ignoring certain types of AC bonuses).

* Vancian magic system (Spell slots of the current system) will be dramatically changed. A wizard who casts all his spells will only be at 80% power. A wizard will never completely run out of spells. They can run out of their “mordenkainen’s sword, however”. Most spells will will be divided into are to be sorted into at will, per encounter and per day.

* As people have said, the importance of magic items will be reduced. While they’ll still be nice to have, WotC says that what makes a 28th level fighter cool will be the fact that he’s a 28th level fighter.

* Character Building: Less feat trees, easier for characters to swap out abilities much easier and try different things out. Each level from 1 – 30 each character will have interesting character development options to choose.

* Personalizing and specializing your character is amped up, it’s one of the most powerful things about 4th edition. If you’re a barbarian, you’re not a frenzied berserker. If you’re a barbarian, you’re a barbarian for your entire career. The frenzied berserker and bear warrior will be at the very end.

* Even at 1st level, a fighter who uses an axe has a different power selection than a fighter who relies on a flail or a rapier or a pick. In the long run, fighters can diversify and master powers related to a few different weapons, but most will opt to focus on the weapon that suits their personal style, helps their interactions with the rest of the PCs in the group, and carries all the magical oomph they’ve managed to acquire.

Game Play Changes

* The SRD/OGL (Open Game Licence for third party products) will still exist.

* There will be no d20 System Trademark License for 4th edition.

* Encounters are going to be wholly redesigned

* Level advancement - for both PCs and monsters - will be a little more “linear,” meaning DMs should be able to throw a wider array of critters up against the PCs.

* Assumed world that will be “points of light in a dark world.”

* There has been talk of a “Critical to the back” doing large amounts of damage. (Possibly the double roll shown above?)

* Ancient dragons will have possibly over 1000hp and AC’s near 50.

* Elemental Dragons have, elemental resistances which act like stoneskin. Elemental Resistance has a maximum amounts of damage able to be taken before it goes down. Elemental Dragons don’t take extra damage from opposite elements (or another dragon ability)

* There will be a 2 year leap in the story time line.

* There will be roughly 10 encounters per level. This is slightly more then 3.5.

* Traps will go up to level 30.

* Attacks of opportunity will be much rarer. An example of a fighter charging a dragon and there were no attacks of opportunity was mentioned.

* Changes to reach: Some monsters may not be able to make attacks of opportunity with a bite attack past a certain range. (A monster with a 15 ft reach with it’s limbs may only have a 5 ft range with it’s bite attack)

* An example of fighting a Dragon: On the dragon’s turn, the first thing it does is burst out in an inferno of flame, searing every PC within 25 feet—a free action. Then, with a standard action, it slashes out at the fighter and the cleric with its two front claws (even though they’re both 20 feet away). As another free action, it uses its tail to slap the rogue, who was trying to sneak up behind it, and pushes her back 10 feet. It’s getting angry at the wizard, so it uses a special ability to take another standard action: it spits a ball of fire at the wizard, setting him on fire. It has a move action left, which it uses to fly into a better position for its breath weapon. That ends the dragon’s turn.

* XP is staying, and it will be much easier for a DM to build an encounter. For example, a DM can build a level 8 encounter totaling 8000xp just by adding up a group of monsters. Monsters have a level, just like characters. “A group vs. a “group” of 5th level is about the same as an EL5 encounter today.

* XP will not be required to make magic items. There was a vague statement that you won’t have to burn a feat to make magic items and that magic item creation has been loosened.

* I think a bit of Iron Heroes has bled into the game. Not things like Tokens and what not, but the idea of islands of civilization surrounded by a sea of lawlessness and savagery will be big in the “assumed” setting. “Points of light in a dark world,” as JohnC said. There will be no great and powerful kingdoms of goodness and justice to bail civilization out. The average Joe doesn’t stray far from the path, venture out onto the moors, are walk through the fog - there are Bad Things out there.

* The encounter is going to be the basic unit of play and encounter design will receive some sizeable revamping. One thing WotC is looking at having DMs decide how much total xp an encounter should and then “buying” monsters with that xp. In addition, there will be several types encounter, including chases and social encounters. There are going to be some actual mechanics to back these up.

* Skill system will be revamped to get rid of junk skills such as rope use. Skills like Hide/Move Silent will be brought together. It will rarely be a check and done. The new system will have, make a check, and they react to it then a response. Concentration will be eliminated (because it’s a skill sink)

* Bullrush is confirmed.

* Flanking is confirmed.

* Trip attack is confirmed.

* Grapple has been simplified.

* Full attack has been removed.

* Death and Dying: At 0 hit points, you are unconscious. You die if you reach negative Hit Points equal to your Bloodied value (half your hit points). At the end of your turn, if you haven’t been stabilized, roll a d20:

-9: You get worse. If you get this result 3 times before being stabilized, you die.

10-19: No change.

20: You stabilize.

* You can cause falling damage to an opponent by landing on him.

* Combat is still using squares.

* “Boosted healing” has been mentioned.

* Wisdom helps with power selection.

* For massive damage you will have to make a Fort save or suffer penalties for the rest of the day, but you will not die from massive damage unless it drops you to -10.

* Reflex, Fort, and Will saves will still be calculated as d20 + 1/2 level + stat bonus. (Possibly also the same for BaB and Defense)

* Every 10th level character will have a +5 bonus to AC, to hit, and all three saves. Class abilities, feats and ability scores will influence these as well.

* Every character at first level will have a bonus traits (fighters getting +2 to fort save for example)

* Saves have been replaced by defense and have almost totally revamped so that everyone’s saves will be within 2 points of each other (your class save bonus only applies once, and you get the best of all classes that you multiclass in, and then progresses the same for everyone). Likewise, everyone gets a bonus to damage equal to half their class level.

* Aggro will be core. (A creature will want to attack someone more then others)

* Trapped doors are in. (Although may be scarce)

* “Critical failures for skills” was used in playtesting terminology.

* The game will be designed to encourage more movement from one place to another. More powers will reward movement and short ranged teleportation/flight or powers that involuntarily move enemies.

* Ability damage is removed.

* Critical Hits have changed significantly. Confirming a critical hit has been removed and when someone makes a critical hit, all the dice are maximized instead of doubled. A critical hit of 3d6+5 damage in 3.5 is (3d6+5)x2 in 4th edition it will be a flat 23. This allows players to write down their critical hit damage to easily look at when they score a 20 for example. Some weapons add extra damage when scoring a critical hit. (eg, +1 frost warhammer deals an extra 1d6 damage on a critical hit.) Also, some magic items and powers give extra effects when scoring critical hits.

* Proficiency with a weapon is now numeric. A warpick for example requires a weapon proficiency of 2 to use.

* Weapon:War Pick

• Prof.:2

• Damage:d8

• Range:–

• Cost:15 gp

• Weight:6 lb.

• Category:Pick

• Properties: High crit, versatile

* Combat advantage has been mentioned as a combat modifier gained when your opponent’s defenses are compromised. Flanking is an example. Rogues can sneak attack when they have combat advantage.

* Blooded: When a creature’s HP total drops to half or lower hp, it is considered bloodied. Being bloodied interacts with other attacks.

* Shift: A creature shifts by moving only 1 square. A shifting creature doesn’t provoke an AoO

* The point at which a character is dying (currently 0 to -10) will now be half a characters current hitpoints (120 hitpoints means -60 to die).

* The amount of negative hit points will not be calculated when healing a character. (A character at -5 hp, healed for 12 hp, will be at 12 hp)

* Monsters will die at 0 hp.

* A victim of a life-draining attack no longer suffers from negative levels. Instead, the target is weakened and the life draining creature heals a sizable number of hit points.

* Passive skills like Perception and Insight take no actions (not a surprise), but actively searching or sensing motives is a Standard Action.

* Spiked chains are in.

* Temporary Hit Points, such as those gained by the Paladin’s bolstering strike, CAN exceed a character’s max Hit Points. However, you can only have 1 pool of temporary HP at a time. If you have 3 temporary HP, and then use an ability to get 5 temporary HP, you have 5 extra, not 8. Temporary hit points last until the end of an encounter. Temporary hit points are still used before regular hit points.

* Normal Cover gives enemies a flat -2 penalty on attack rolls, and can prevent adjacent foes from threatening them from attacks. Total Cover (such as firing through an arrow slit) gives enemies a -5 penalty.

* Crawling is a move action. While crawling, a character moves at half its normal speed, and provokes opportunity attacks from adjacent enemies.

* When prone, characters’ attacks suffer a -2 penalty.

* When Dazed, a character may take only 1 action, instead of the usual suite of Standard, Move, Minor, and Free.

* Everything has a constitution score.

* Threatening Reach (3.5 reach) is a property of the monster or character, not a property of weapons. Human guards with halberds might not have threatening reach, but a different monster wielding the same weapon might.

* The Social Encounter rules are generally designed to include a series of skill challenges, and give a lot of leeway to the DM to determine the consequences of success and failure. For example, characters fail the bluff and diplomacy checks, but still escaped the guards.

* Running: You can run as a move action. Add 2 to your movement, but enemies gain combat advantage against you until your next turn.

* Running Jumps: If you can move 4 squares in a straight line before making your jump check, halve the jump DC.

* Tumble: If you want to tumble, you need to take the feat.

* Coup de Grace: If you can Coup de Grace a helpless opponent, you do max weapon damage.

* Lava: in 4th edition, if you fall into lava you die. No save.

* Languages in dnd 4e: Common, Supernal, Elven, Goblin, Dwarven, Draconic, Abyssal, Giant

* Known damage types: acid, cold, fire, force, lightning, necrotic, poison, psychic, radiant, thunder

* 24 Zombie Rotters minions are a standard encounter for 6 level 1 PCs. Since minions die when they take damage, 4e minion encounters like this will be common.

Spells/Magic

* Big spells like raise dead will be rituals. Rituals will be different from normal spells and will cover magic item creation and non combat spells like divination. Long range teleports, restoration effects, abjuration’s long term wards, and all divinations will also be considered rituals.

* Illusions will still be common

* Necromancy type spells will be nerfed

* Alignment specific spells will be removed.

* A Wizard’s fireball doesn’t do 1d6 per level any more. However it’s been said during play testing that you can crit with a fireball. Someone was able to roll two crits with one fireball and instantly killed a tough creature.

* Power sources will be either arcane, divine, or martial. Psi will appear later as a different power source.

* In game play testing a big group of sailors who were clustered up were all slept with one spell.

* Some spells are gone. (Wish and the current form of polymorph)

* Buff durations will be modified. (Perhaps into something like this)

* There will be less save or die spells.

* Magic will be more prevalent to all classes.

* “Bless” is in, but it’s unknown what it does. (cure disease?)

* Ray of frost slows enemies down.

* Magic Item Slots: Armor, Neck, Arms, Feet, Hands, Head, Rings, Waist. Face, back, and one ring have been removed.

* Shields no longer have enhancement bonuses, shields have special defensive effects.

* Magic Items

Magic items are given recommended levels (so DM’s will have a better idea of the strength of the items they give to their PCs) Magic items cost the same amount to craft as they do to purchase.

• slippers of spider climbing (7th)

• +2 staff of the war mage (9th)

• +2 thundering mace (9th)

• +2 lightning sword (9th)

• 2 flaming longsword (10th)

• Rope of climbing (10th)

• +3 vicious sword (12th)

• Boots of levitation (13th)

• Flying carpet (18th)

• Implement: +3 rod of dark reward

• Armor: +3 leather armor

• Neck: +2 cloak of survival

• Arms: Bracers of the perfect shot

• Feet: Wavestrider boots

• Hands: Shadowfell gloves

• Head: Diadem of acuity

• Waist: Belt of battle

• Wondrous Items: Bag of holding

Skills

* DnD 4.0 will have many of its skilled simplified into one basic skill compared to DnD 3.5. Here is a list of skills that have been mentioned as being in DnD 4.0:

• Acrobatics: (Balance, Escape Artist, Tumble) Use this skill to test your balance on narrow or unstable surfaces, to escape from a grab or from restraints, and (if you’re trained) to reduce your damage when you fall.

• Arcana: (Knowledge Arcane, Spellcraft) You have knowledge about magic and magical effects, and (if you’re trained) you know how to detect a persistent magical effect.

• Athletics: (Climb, swim, jump) Use this skill to climb, swim, or jump.

• Bluff: (Bluff) Use this skill to make what’s false appear to be true, fast-talk a guard, con a merchant, or tell lies.

• Diplomacy: (Diplomacy) Use this skill to influence other with tact and social grace, change opinions, inspire good will, and to negotiate a deal in good faith.

• Dungeoneering: (Knowledge Dungeoneering) You have knowledge about forging a path through a dungeon complex, recognizing dungeon hazards, and finding food in the Underdark.

• Endurance: Use this skill to stave off ill effects and to push beyond normal physical limits.

• Heal: (Heal) Use this skill to administer first aid, stabilize ad dying character, grant a saving throw, or treat a disease.

• History: (Knowledge History) You have knowledge about history, including significant events, legends, customs, and traditions.

• Insight: (Sense Motive) Use this skill to discern intent and decipher body language, making a best guess as to a target’s motives, attitudes, and truthfulness.

• Intimidate: (Intimidate) Use this skill to influence others through hostile actions and overt threats. (Intimidate)

• Nature: (Knowledge Nature) You have knowledge related to finding your way through the wilderness, recognizing natural hazards, and living off the land.

• Perception: (Listen, Search, Spot) Use this skill to notice clues, spots imminent dangers, and location hidden objects.

• Religion: (Knowledge Religion) You have knowledge of religious traditions.

• Stealth: (Hide, Move Silently) Use this skill to hide and move silently.

• Streetwise: You know how to get the lay of the land in an urban setting.

• Thievery: (Disable Device, Open Lock, Slight of Hand) Use this skill to disable traps, open locks, pick pockets, and perform other slight of hand.

* Here is our best guess for the remaining skills:

• Deception: (Forgery)

• Theatrics: (Disguise, Perform)

• Wilderness Lore: (Handle Animal, Ride, Survival, Use Rope)

Speculation

* +6 wands and other similar magic items may have effects that benefit individual characters abilities.

* Asmodeus has been promoted to a god, and at least some Demon Lords and Arch-Devils will be present in the MM, including Orcus (but not Asmodeus).

* The Player’s Handbook, Monster Manual, and possibly Dungeon Master’s Guide will be annual releases, so in 2009, expect the PHB2, MM2, and maybe DMG2. The MM sequels will have an obvious function; the Player’s Handbooks will introduce heroes with new “power sources” (see the subtitle of the PHB1: “Arcane, Divine, and Martial Heroes.”) Psionics was either suggested or hinted at a possible PHB2 source.

* Polymorph will be changed to have. Baneful polymorph (frog, rat, snail…). And various “form of the…” spells. Example : lvl2 : form of the wolf, lvl5 : form of the raven, lvl9 : form of the bear : lvl 12 form of the troll etc.. (Polymorph will potentially draw from a list as summon monster does now)

* There will be spells for every level (Up to 30 levels of Clerical and Arcane spells for example)

* The word from the R&D seminar was that changeling’s, from the Eberron campaign setting, may be in the PHB.

* Level loss from spells may be removed

* DR may be removed or significantly changed.

* Potential to have another controller based class other then the Wizard.

* “Immortal Humanoid” has replaced “Outsider”.

* Spot checks may be a static 10 + the ability score instead of an actual roll and will be dependent on a creature’s hide ability roll if they are seen. This would prevent players from knowing they just failed a spot check.

* Possible new terrain Doomspore:

If any creature enters a doomspore’s square or uses a standard action to kick or poke at it, if within reach, a doomspore releases a cloud of spores that provides concealment to all adjacent squares. A bloodied creature (someone at 50% or less hp) in the area of a cloud when created, who moves into the cloud, or begins its turn in the cloud, is subject to a Fortitude attack +10 that deals 1d10 points of poison damage on a hit. Also, target hit by a doomspore is weakened and takes ongoing poison 5. A save ends both conditions, creatures with immunity to or resist poison 5 are immune to the weakened condition also.

* Stat bonuses for races won’t be negative and only positive bonuses will be used.

* Fighters will have multiple types of attacks, each with its own name.

* Wizards cast spells using a spell point pool (similar to 3.5 psions).

* Schools of magic are removed and will instead be dependent on implements (orb, staff, wand and possibly dagger in later supplements.) Staffs are for rays and cones, wands for long distance control, orbs are for illusions, and terrain control. **This has changed and any wizard can choose a primary implement and cast any spell through any implement with the same effectiveness.

* Confirming critical hits will be removed.

* Rumor has it that there will be a dragon book (Dragonborn?), martial arts book (Monk?) and arcane book (swordmage, sorcerer?) also coming out in 2008.

* Movement is now based on the amount of squares moved, the diagonal penalty will be removed. Eg, if a character moves 35 squares, they can move in any direction or any path as long as the total equals 35 squares.

* If you want to learn a skill that is not available to your class, you MUST take a level in another class. In 3.5 you could spend double points to learn a rank in a skill not of your class. You can’t do that in 4.0. You can’t even use a feat to learn a new skill not of your class. There is positively no other way than to take a level in a class which has the skill available. In this way, the rules favor multi classing in a big way.

* After 1st level, to become trained in a new skill you must obtain the Skill Training feat to do so. Feats are slightly more common now, but not THAT much more common where you’re really going to want to use more than maybe one or two feats by level 20 for the purpose of getting a new skill or two.

* Skills are increased automatically as you level (you gain a +1 bonus to ALL skills every even level - even the ones you are untrained in, although there are some skills and skill uses which do require training even if you do have a few pluses to it), and you do not purchase ranks in them. You are either trained (+5 bonus to the skill) or untrained (either can’t use, or get only your level bonus to use the skill). Well, you can spend another feat slot to get an additional +5 bonus to a skill (for a total of 10 + level bonus), but that’s it.

* It has been mentioned that in 4th edition a basic “Point Buy” system will be put into place for ability scores, but it will still be up to the DM’s digressions.

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Good grief! Just reading this makes my eyes bleed - thank heavens for BRP.

Slightly more seriously, I have been playing in a Star Wars SAGA edition game, which foreshadows some of the D&D4 changes. No doubt it is a good game that will appeal to many - but it is too rules heavy for my taste, with constant looking up of rules delaying the flow of the action.

Tonight, I hope I will be playing Battlestar Galactica BRP - hooray!

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Anyone who was able to read the whole list without giving up, make a SAN roll. If you fail, you lose 1d100 sanity. If you lose 20% of your current SAN, you go permanently insane and preorder D&D 4th edition instead of Deluxe BRP. If your SAN drops to 0, you are insane beyond cure, and also burn all of your BRP stuff in sacrifice to the Great Old Ones of the Coast.

(Armor Class 50 - OMG :shocked:)

  • Haha 1

Proud member of the Evil CompetitionTM

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.(SNIPPAGE).

Err, care to condense that a touch? Or at least break out the key things you think MIGHT be useful / relevant to BRP?

I'm afraid I don't particularly rate Mike Mearls as a designer (most of his d20 work I've read I find overly fiddly and poorly thought through) and most of the rules ideas in 4e seem aimed at taking the game even further back down the "tactical skirmish wargame" road than 3.5 - a shame as the flavour text and such has been a marked improvement over 3.0/3.5 - but frankly, if I was to run something in a 4e style "points of light" setting, from what I've heard so far 4e is pretty low down the list of possible systems I'd choose to use...

Cheers,

Nick

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Our group has just recently decided to "translate" our science fiction setting

from GURPS Traveller to BRP in order to play a game with less rules mathema-

tics and more roleplaying, where the setting is at the centre and the rules are

only (adaptable) tools to make the setting playable.

My opinion on D&D 4.0 should be obvious ... >:->

"Mind like parachute, function only when open."

(Charlie Chan)

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Almost eveything in D&D4 design sounds as bad RPG system design to me and a step backwards when compared to D&D3 evolutions.

The idea of "Per encounter" or "Per day" powers or the use of character level in the core mechanism of the game simply don't sound right to me when used in RPG system design because it is so artificial. Using Magic Points is amuch better way to handle

But the fact is, reading preview characters descriptions of the first scenario here makes me want to read or even play the game, and I understand why they did it this way.

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* Polymorph will be changed to have. Baneful polymorph (frog, rat, snail…). And various “form of the…” spells. Example : lvl2 : form of the wolf, lvl5 : form of the raven, lvl9 : form of the bear : lvl 12 form of the troll etc.. (Polymorph will potentially draw from a list as summon monster does now)

*in unison* "Wonder Twin powers, activate!"

"Form of an eagle!"

"Form of, uh, water!"

So Jan was just a much higher level than Jace? I had always figured Jace had a much lower Int score than Jan....

70/420

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Our group has just recently decided to "translate" our science fiction setting

from GURPS Traveller to BRP in order to play a game with less rules mathema-

tics and more roleplaying, where the setting is at the centre and the rules are

only (adaptable) tools to make the setting playable.

No disrepect to BRP (I love my Zero Edition), but if you want to play Traveller with a simpler rules set, then you should look at Mongoose Traveller. Another notch down in crunch compared to BRP, plus it is explicitly Traveller.

132/420

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Yep, as soon as the German translation of Mongoose Traveller has been pub-

lished (early June, probably), we will use parts of it for our setting, especial-

ly from the character generation chapter, the starship construction system

and the trade system.

However, we prefer the d100 system to Traveller's system for the "actual ro-

leplaying", so Traveller will only influence the setting, not the characters' ac-

tions.

"Mind like parachute, function only when open."

(Charlie Chan)

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Anyone who was able to read the whole list without giving up, make a SAN roll. If you fail, you lose 1d100 sanity. If you lose 20% of your current SAN, you go permanently insane and preorder D&D 4th edition instead of Deluxe BRP. If your SAN drops to 0, you are insane beyond cure, and also burn all of your BRP stuff in sacrifice to the Great Old Ones of the Coast.

(Armor Class 50 - OMG :shocked:)

I was looking on a forum a few days ago. The people on the forum were wondering why CoC D20 failed, because, after all, D20 is the best system out there! Far better than that crappy BRP system!

I think we'll be seeing an appearance from the Great Old Ones soon, as their cultists seem to be growing in number.:eek:

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The problem I have with 4e is that it is moving away from simulation to cinematic. I like simulation RPGs. I do not like cinematic RPGs.

To give an example, Firecube is a big problem for me. I know that a lot of people feel that the simplicity of being able to count one square as one square, even when going diagonal, is worth the anomaly, but for me it breaks my willing suspension of disbelief. I find myself going, “That’s stupid! How hard is it to make a circle on a grid map? Here, I can do it in two seconds!” The simulationist gamer in me just goes berserk.

Of course I can house rule the diagonal movement, but it is just one example of many.

I don’t like the use of cards. These are optional, but you can use "Power cards" to track your abilities and whether you have used them or not. It smacks of D&D: the Gathering.

I don’t like the new roles (Striker, defender, controller, leader): Dungeons of Warcraft.

I don’t like that angels are no longer Good: Now you have more monsters to kill! Seriously, angels are no longer Good so that they don't waste space in the Monster Manual on monsters that you will never fight. :shocked:

I don’t like the new demons and devils: Devils have wings, demons don’t. (What are they? Autobots and Deceptigons?)

I don’t like Healing surges: The 30th level epic cleric can heal an army of wounded, but he can’t heal you (you used all your healing surges). You are done for today, take a six hour nap and you’ll be fine. You are fully healed and have all your powers back ofter 6 hours of rest.

I don’t like how recharge chances are listed as “Recharge: 4 5 6”. Like I can’t figure out that I need to roll a 4 or higher on a d6 if they just put “Recharge: 4” there? (It is a nitpick I know, but really it makes me think they are questioning my intelligence.)

Minions. All minions have 1hp. I find it hilarious that an ogre that might take 100 points of damage to drop when you are 3rd level, will die with a single dagger thrust from the wizard at 10th level. At 3rd level he was the “boss”, but at 10th he is just the Giant’s minion.

There is more, but you get the idea.

I guess I can sum up everything above with the simple statement that I fundamentally disagree with WotC’s design philosophy for 4th edition.

The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.

Bertrand Russell (1872 - 1970)

30/420

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I'd say one of the more innovative concepts in 4E is the idea that combatants tend to be pushed, pulled, shifted, or slid around the battlefield. I find this idea to be very intriguing, it makes combat more dynamic as you may be forced to give ground, or feinted into enemy ranks, or simply knocked back from the position of wedging yourself in a doorway. Could BRP use this? Yes.

The idea that everyone has powers is also pretty neat, in the sense that it gives some narrative control to the players. This could easily be incorporated using a character's POW. Much like spellcasters using POW to fuel spells, combatants could use POW to capitalize on martial exploits and thereby perform a few neat tricks. Could BRP use this? Maybe?

Rituals. In 4E, spells all focus on combat effects. Non-combat magic is based on rituals, and the economy of rituals is; AFAIK; based more on time and materials. BRP already has something like this, but it's still based on the economy of POW (RQ3 rituals)

And don't forget Realism Rule # 1 "If you can do it in real life you should be able to do it in BRP". - Simon Phipp

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I'd say one of the more innovative concepts in 4E is the idea that combatants tend to be pushed, pulled, shifted, or slid around the battlefield. I find this idea to be very intriguing, it makes combat more dynamic as you may be forced to give ground, or feinted into enemy ranks, or simply knocked back from the position of wedging yourself in a doorway. Could BRP use this? Yes.

Not everything that 4e proposes is bad. The idea of moving around in combat is good, but I honestly do not like the way that they have implemented it.

The idea that everyone has powers is also pretty neat, in the sense that it gives some narrative control to the players. This could easily be incorporated using a character's POW. Much like spellcasters using POW to fuel spells, combatants could use POW to capitalize on martial exploits and thereby perform a few neat tricks. Could BRP use this? Maybe?

BRP could use this I guess, but I won't. Powers, feats, whatever you call them, BRP doesn't need them in my opinion.

Rituals. In 4E, spells all focus on combat effects. Non-combat magic is based on rituals, and the economy of rituals is; AFAIK; based more on time and materials. BRP already has something like this, but it's still based on the economy of POW (RQ3 rituals)

Spending Experience Points to make magic items or preform magic spells was always a bad idea, so it is good that they are trying to fix that. I thought that the ritual magic in RQ3 was excellent. Definitely ahead of it's time. Something like it should be added to BRP. Probably in that 'Magic Source book' that everybody agrees would be a great idea, but no one is writing yet. :ohwell:

The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.

Bertrand Russell (1872 - 1970)

30/420

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Not everything that 4e proposes is bad. The idea of moving around in combat is good, but I honestly do not like the way that they have implemented it.

BRP already has many of what 4e thinks is new: Brutal critical hits, knockback with bludgeon weapons, impales with piercing weapons. All it is missing is simple mechanics for feints, or to borrow from Savage Worlds 'Tricks'.

A 'Trick' is any maneuver in combat that is meant to lower someone's defenses. It could be anything from the classic [looking over opponent's should] and saying 'Glad you finally showed up', to throwing sand in someone's face, or an intimidating shout.

Tricks can be Agility tricks (feints), Psychological (POW, eg: intimidate), or Intellectual.

This is resolved with opposed rolls on the resistance table. Dex vs Dex, Pow vs Pow, or Int vs Int. If successful, you lower your opponent's defense by 10% until the beginning of your next turn. Optionally, crits could lower defenses even more.

Feints force your opponent to move 1m in any direction. If this would cause them to fall off a cliff or into lava, they get to make a DEX or Luck roll to fall prone.

To Summarize, tricks and maneuvers offer more combat options without excessive rules. Use tricks when you cannot overwhelm your opponents defenses. Use feints to control the battlefield. Optionally, Feints could be a skill.

BRP could use this I guess, but I won't. Powers, feats, whatever you call them, BRP doesn't need them in my opinion.

No, BRP doesn't need feats and powers. It might be able to use a method for players to exert some narrative control through spending temporary POW, such as temporarily improving damage, skill competencies, or just damage soaking. Very minor things, IMO.

For 1 pt. Temporary POW =

+5% to Skill Check

+1 damage

Soak 1 HP

Be Heroic

Or something like that. You get the picture

And don't forget Realism Rule # 1 "If you can do it in real life you should be able to do it in BRP". - Simon Phipp

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BRP already has many of what 4e thinks is new: Brutal critical hits, knockback with bludgeon weapons, impales with piercing weapons. All it is missing is simple mechanics for feints, or to borrow from Savage Worlds 'Tricks'.

A 'Trick' is any maneuver in combat that is meant to lower someone's defenses. It could be anything from the classic [looking over opponent's should] and saying 'Glad you finally showed up', to throwing sand in someone's face, or an intimidating shout.

Tricks can be Agility tricks (feints), Psychological (POW, eg: intimidate), or Intellectual.

This is resolved with opposed rolls on the resistance table. Dex vs Dex, Pow vs Pow, or Int vs Int. If successful, you lower your opponent's defense by 10% until the beginning of your next turn. Optionally, crits could lower defenses even more.

I like the idea of tricks, and started roughing out some ideas for a BRP system - then I thought again:

So the lucky farm boy (POW 18) is better at Intimidation than the veteran Soldier (POW 12), the smart kid (INT 18) better than the average adult hustler (INT 12), the graceful apprentice (DEX 18) better than the normally co-ordinated Guard (DEX 12)? :D

I concluded after some thought that a) a lot of this stuff is covered in the new BRP in the Spot Rules and B) they are functions of skill (i.e. experience and training) not raw ability (i.e. stats).

If I was to implement a generalised mechanic for non-combat skills aiding in combat I'd use a variant something like this: a character with a sufficiently high skill (e.g. Fast Talk 50+) can use it in an opposed test vs. an opponents appropriate skill (e.g. for a bluff, or taunt use of fast Talk, probably Insight) and if they win either penalise the opponents defensive skill or add to their attacking skill an amount equal to their special success chance with their winning skill e.g. in the Bluff example, one fifth of their Fast Talk could be applied as either a penalty to the defenders parry or Dodge, or as a bonus to the Attackers weapon skill.

Feints force your opponent to move 1m in any direction. If this would cause them to fall off a cliff or into lava, they get to make a DEX or Luck roll to fall prone.

There are Entangle and Knock-back rules in BRP already - I think the issue is as much getting players to THINK about what their characters options are in a combat as it is a rules issue. And, funnily enough, I know of at least one Savage Worlds GM who has had problems getting players to engage with SW combat properly because they didn't know or understand the options available...

To summarise, tricks and manoeuvres offer more combat options without excessive rules. Use tricks when you cannot overwhelm your opponents defences. Use feints to control the battlefield. Optionally, Feints could be a skill.

I think much of this is, as I said, already covered in the BRP spot rules, and that the vast majority should be skill based... But I still want to sit down with a copy of SW and the BRP Spot Rule chapter as I think I think a "Guide to BRP Action Sequences" with suggestions for both players and GM's on how to implement and exploit the Spot Rules stuff might be useful.

No, BRP doesn't need feats and powers. It might be able to use a method for players to exert some narrative control through spending temporary POW, such as temporarily improving damage, skill competencies, or just damage soaking. Very minor things, IMO.

For 1 pt. Temporary POW =

+5% to Skill Check

+1 damage

Soak 1 HP

Be Heroic

Or something like that. You get the picture

This is covered in the optional "Fate point" mechanic in BRP. I've yet to try them in play, but I know Jason and others have used these sorts of things a lot and think well of them... I think it's worth looking at skills over 100% and considering how big a deal it is: in an SB style game, skills over 100 are sufficiently common that they don't nee extra rules. In a RQII/III game where skills over 100 are theoretically possible but rare and noteworthy then I think some extra benefits of exceptional skill would be good - whether something like Land of Ninja's ki skills or MRQ's Legendary Abilities done right.

RuneLords in RQII got specific unique abilities for weapon skills over 100, which might be a source of inspiration.

Cheers,

Nick

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I know that this isn't a D&D forum and that many BRP players historically have issues with D&D (I know I did) but some of the things being done with D&D 4th edition look mechanically very interesting and so I thought Id post a thread about them.

And thanks for posting! It's fascinating, albeit deeply disturbing. There's so much to comment on, I don't know where to start. I'm still reeling...

Anyone who was able to read the whole list without giving up, make a SAN roll. ... (Armor Class 50 - OMG :shocked:)

(Or AC -40, in the terms of my era!). Yes, it's sanity-blasting stuff alright. :mad: Luckily I'm immune, being mad already. :D

I was looking on a forum a few days ago. The people on the forum were wondering why CoC D20 failed, because, after all, D20 is the best system out there!

Though I'm still not as deranged as some, it seems! :) If D20 is so good, how come they feel the need to change it so much...? ;)

Britain has been infiltrated by soviet agents to the highest levels. They control the BBC, the main political party leaderships, NHS & local council executives, much of the police, most newspapers and the utility companies. Of course the EU is theirs, through-and-through. And they are among us - a pervasive evil, like Stasi.

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<snip>

There is more, but you get the idea.

I guess I can sum up everything above with the simple statement that I fundamentally disagree with WotC’s design philosophy for 4th edition.

Yes, that stuff looks bad to me, too. Are you sure about this? What are your sources?

I'd say one of the more innovative concepts in 4E is the idea that combatants tend to be pushed, pulled, shifted, or slid around the battlefield.

Yes, more fluid melee is good. I use a simple system, which seems to work nicely: anyone attempting to dodge has to step back (or go prone, if there's nowhere to retreat...).

The idea that everyone has powers is also pretty neat, in the sense that it gives some narrative control to the players. This could easily be incorporated using a character's POW. Much like spellcasters using POW to fuel spells, combatants could use POW to capitalize on martial exploits and thereby perform a few neat tricks. Could BRP use this? Maybe?

I like this idea, if the "powers" for warrior-types can be made out to be combat techniques (not out-and-out magic). Most Feats seem suitable.

This is covered in the optional "Fate point" mechanic in BRP. ... In a RQII/III game where skills over 100 are theoretically possible but rare and noteworthy then I think some extra benefits of exceptional skill would be good - whether something like Land of Ninja's ki skills or MRQ's Legendary Abilities done right.

RuneLords in RQII got specific unique abilities for weapon skills over 100, which might be a source of inspiration.

Exactly so.

Britain has been infiltrated by soviet agents to the highest levels. They control the BBC, the main political party leaderships, NHS & local council executives, much of the police, most newspapers and the utility companies. Of course the EU is theirs, through-and-through. And they are among us - a pervasive evil, like Stasi.

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This is covered in the optional "Fate point" mechanic in BRP. I've yet to try them in play, but I know Jason and others have used these sorts of things a lot and think well of them... I think it's worth looking at skills over 100% and considering how big a deal it is: in an SB style game, skills over 100 are sufficiently common that they don't nee extra rules. In a RQII/III game where skills over 100 are theoretically possible but rare and noteworthy then I think some extra benefits of exceptional skill would be good - whether something like Land of Ninja's ki skills or MRQ's Legendary Abilities done right.

RuneLords in RQII got specific unique abilities for weapon skills over 100, which might be a source of inspiration.

Like I said earlier, much of what 4E presents as new and interesting has already been done more succinctly and with less fanfare in BRP. While weapon skills over 100% might be a good source of inspiration, I would not like an added combat subsystem to be available only once a character hits the 100 percentile mark. As someone who enjoys 100 as a literal expression of competence, and typically plays with that cap, I'd want these options available from the word 'go'.

In any case, I'm looking forward to getting my hands on BRP0 and seeing what can be easily accommodated with the core book.

And don't forget Realism Rule # 1 "If you can do it in real life you should be able to do it in BRP". - Simon Phipp

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I concluded after some thought that a) a lot of this stuff is covered in the new BRP in the Spot Rules and B) they are functions of skill (i.e. experience and training) not raw ability (i.e. stats).

No reason to go into that too much since Nick has beaten me to it (again ;-( ).

To add to it, however, there is one little thing that D20 does that would benefit BRP skills. The way d20 shows how each skill is used in the skill description is a very good idea. That way all the different uses of a skill (feints, increasing parry, increasing damage, skill specializations, etc.) could all be rolled up nicely into the skill description text.

There are two issues with that, though. One is that each skill description would become very long (although you could do it by type, such as combat/weapons skills, knowledge skills, etc.) and the joyous freeform skills creating rampant in CoC (flail about wildly 25% 1d4 damage) would be harder for GM's to just "wing it" if they went with this idea.

I agree with Nick that keeping skills (and not having gobs of feats, modifiers, etc.) as the basis for the majority of player rolling is the way of BRP.

After all, what good is having Warhammer 138% if some mook with lots of POW/MP's can be just as good as you are for a bit, or someone has some modifier that makes their 80% skill better than your 100%+ skill? Skills should represent a field of study/compentence in its' entirety.

:focus:

One disturbing thing I noticed is the "movement around the battlefield" effects described. My question is "why"? PC's can move around just fine, or use magic items/spells/tech items to enhance it...so why make more rules?

My other contention with 4E is the bizzare leveling and character pigeon-holing that is increasing with each new iteration. It was bad when everyone in the world was 0 level, but they almost fixed it (although commoners are pretty worthless, but at least they finally have skills...) in 3E, but now in 4E it seems like depending on who you are fighting your HP's change...

Needless to say, color me unimpressed with 4E. I only play two systems (BRP and D20) and it shall remain so for a very long time.

-STS

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:focus:

One disturbing thing I noticed is the "movement around the battlefield" effects described. My question is "why"? PC's can move around just fine, or use magic items/spells/tech items to enhance it...so why make more rules?

Movement around the battlefield isn't for the benefit of a PC who actively wants to move his character, it's for the movement of opponents against there will.

Until 4E, I don't think I came across a game system which did not treat combatants as set pieces of the table. A moves to B, and they stay there until either decide to leave. aka: the impassable line. Sure, I've seen rules for pushing, and knocking someone down, but not for tricking them to step to the right. So yeah - one fiddly bit of several hundred pages of new rules is something I think is worthwhile to add to BRP.

And don't forget Realism Rule # 1 "If you can do it in real life you should be able to do it in BRP". - Simon Phipp

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OK, I'll agree that it seems nifty to move your opponents around, but wouldn't that simply be a codification of how many items/effects already do that (teleport, daze, stun guns, wind blast, explosions, gravity effects, throws, displace, etc.)?

One fiddly bit isn't bad, it's just not worth the cash. Granted, eventually I'll probably dole out the cash (since my son loves D&D and all the munchkiny evil-ness therein, plus the 4E minis are already out...and of course he's hooked on them) for 4E, but not any time soon...maybe for his birthday next year.

I am all about taking ideas from any game system and making them work for me.

-STS

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Yeah I agree, $100 dollars for research material isn't worthwhile for a couple of ideas to translate into BRP.

That said, I think there a few more gems that you can extract from the teaser material. For one, i like the concise energy types (fire, cold, radiant, necrotic). Nice concept of spell 'trappings' couple with Savage Worlds generic magic system could be a nice alternate for BRP. (actually, I'm prone to borrow from SW whose design is more like BRP than D&D - i just don't care for 'levels')

I also like the advice in skill challenges (too long to post here, and writing from my pda is hell on the thunbs)

And don't forget Realism Rule # 1 "If you can do it in real life you should be able to do it in BRP". - Simon Phipp

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For me, the useful bits appear to be:

- Encounter-long spell durations (frankly, just openly acknowledging an existing state-of-affairs - that they're too much bother to administer!)

- Um... that's it.

(OK, Social Encounters sound intriguing and may turn out useful, too).

The "Points of light in a dark world" setting idea is cool. But that's not Rules. And my campaign seems to be heading that way already, anyway... :eek:

Other things we learn - D&D is being changed again, so they can sell more books; and though many of the changes are actually improvements, many more are not. We are reminded that D&D is grotesquely rules-heavy, overly prescriptive (controlling, not enabling) and, increasingly and sadly, just a silly kids game.

Britain has been infiltrated by soviet agents to the highest levels. They control the BBC, the main political party leaderships, NHS & local council executives, much of the police, most newspapers and the utility companies. Of course the EU is theirs, through-and-through. And they are among us - a pervasive evil, like Stasi.

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So the lucky farm boy (POW 18) is better at Intimidation than the veteran Soldier (POW 12), the smart kid (INT 18) better than the average adult hustler (INT 12), the graceful apprentice (DEX 18) better than the normally co-ordinated Guard (DEX 12)? :D

I concluded after some thought that a) a lot of this stuff is covered in the new BRP in the Spot Rules and B) they are functions of skill (i.e. experience and training) not raw ability (i.e. stats).

Nick

I've only actually played Savage Worlds once so the following observation may not be too robust.

But it seemed that SW mechanics are much more characteristic based than BRP.

So shouldn't Tricks, Taunts, Intimidates be skill-based for the Active party? And maybe Passive highest of (Characteristic x5 or Skill)?

So Lucky Callow Youth (Pow 16 and Intimidate 20%) only uses his 20% as Active when intimidating but 80% when resisting Intimidation. Whilst Big Bastard Sergeant (Pow 12 and Intimidate 100%) uses 100% as Active and (because he understands Threats) 100% as Passive to defend against Intimidation.

However my favourite mechanism for such grooviness comes from PenDragon pass and its rule for 'Feats' (my D&Dphobia being what it is I rename them 'Stunts' but use the rules unchanged)

Al

Rule Zero: Don't be on fire

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