Demon Summoning from Advanced Sorcery

[rsanford]

Okay I have a dumb question. On page 42 of Advanced Sorcery (lower left), it says that a bound demon counts against the binding sorcerer's INT-limit of memory... Does anyone know how much it counts?

I read the the entire The Summoners Art chapter but can't find the answer...

Thanks!

[Sean_RDP]

I do not have it, but are the demons ranked in some way? Type I, II etc...? Maybe its 1 INT per level of demon? Just guessing.

[K Peterson]

Advanced Sorcery's demon summoning is based off of Elric!/Stormbringer's, if I remember correctly. Per Elric!, page 73:

Quote

In the game, a human can remember up to that sum of individual spells, summonings, and invocations equal to his or her INT. A human of INT 16 might have in memory 16 or fewer spells; or have three spells and five summonings; or seven spells, four summonings, and three invocations; and so on in any combination totaling 16 or fewer spells, summonings, and invocations. Each bound demon and bound elemental also counts against this limit.

If that's the right source, then I would say that each bound demon counts as 1 point of INT for the limit.

Greater demons just require a ton more magic points to summon - they don't appear to take up more INT-space. To do that, you need some kind of magic-point-reserve (like a Brazier of Power) or have a number of people helping you out (using a spell like Chain of Being).

Edited February 7, 2016 by K Peterson

[Aramone]

I think it is one int  slot per 1d8 of pow the demon posses.

[Aramone]

Page 125 Magic World.

[rsanford]

Thanks all. I will check Magic World when I get home. I thought that greater demons likely cost more but I stand corrected.

[smiorgan]

On 7/2/2016 at 2:47 AM, K Peterson said:

Advanced Sorcery's demon summoning is based off of Elric!/Stormbringer's, if I remember correctly. Per Elric!, page 73:

If that's the right source, then I would say that each bound demon counts as 1 point of INT for the limit.

Greater demons just require a ton more magic points to summon - they don't appear to take up more INT-space. To do that, you need some kind of magic-point-reserve (like a Brazier of Power) or have a number of people helping you out (using a spell like Chain of Being).

I must say I much prefer the old Elric! rules for INT-space to the updated MW rules. 

[rsanford]

On 2/7/2016 at 8:00 PM, Aramone said:

52 minutes ago, smiorgan said:

I must say I much prefer the old Elric! rules for INT-space to the updated MW rules. 

 

How was Elric different?

[K Peterson]

21 minutes ago, rsanford said:

How was Elric different?

I think it's how I described above, where I quoted the Elric! core book. But, with @Aramone's comment I've been re-reading Elric's demon summoning section in case I was in error.

Think I'm still right. INT-space appear to be per-demon, whether lesser or greater demon. You're just dishing out more magic points for a tougher demon. Less restrictive than MW's version, but still not easy (when you take into account the massive magic point requirements, and the POW sacrifice for binding the demon).

[smiorgan]

2 hours ago, rsanford said:

How was Elric different?

Each spell, rune, summoning or invocation just occupied 1 INT slot. For instance, the Exorcism (10) spell occupies 10 INT in MW, but it just occupied 1 INT in Elric! In general, this made easier to have very powerful sorcerers PCs or NPCs without ridicoulusly high Intelligence.

Additionally, in MW human intelligence cannot go beyond 21. Which makes very powerful human sorcereres simply impossible by the rulesbook.

 

 

[rsanford]

1 hour ago, smiorgan said:

Each spell, rune, summoning or invocation just occupied 1 INT slot. For instance, the Exorcism (10) spell occupies 10 INT in MW, but it just occupied 1 INT in Elric! In general, this made easier to have very powerful sorcerers PCs or NPCs without ridicoulusly high Intelligence.

Additionally, in MW human intelligence cannot go beyond 21. Which makes very powerful human sorcereres simply impossible by the rulesbook.

 

 

Interesting! I wonder how Stormbringer 5 did things? I assume it was like Elric but maybe it was like MW.

[Chaot]

For spells?  It was like Elric!  I'll look tomorrow to confirm but I'm sure.

[Baulderstone]

10 minutes ago, rsanford said:

Interesting! I wonder how Stormbringer 5 did things? I assume it was like Elric but maybe it was like MW.

It worked just like Elric!

[TRose]

 I have both Elric and Advanced Sorcery and Magic world on my list of things to buy when .

  One thing I noticed in both was there seemed there was no way for a lonely  Sorcerer to summon a Demon to go on a dinner date with out freaking out the Waiter.

[tooley1chris]

I believe Advanced Sorcery for MW allows you to pick powers the demon might have, at additional cost. A Liken Person ability would allow your special evening with your demonic partner to be possible.

[tooley1chris]

On 2/9/2016 at 6:37 PM, smiorgan said:

Each spell, rune, summoning or invocation just occupied 1 INT slot. For instance, the Exorcism (10) spell occupies 10 INT in MW, but it just occupied 1 INT in Elric! In general, this made easier to have very powerful sorcerers PCs or NPCs without ridicoulusly high Intelligence.

Additionally, in MW human intelligence cannot go beyond 21. Which makes very powerful human sorcereres simply impossible by the rulesbook.

 

 

Page 12 Magic World:

"Human  Intelligence  can  rise  indefinitely."

[smiorgan]

On 10/3/2016 at 1:08 AM, tooley1chris said:

Page 12 Magic World:

"Human  Intelligence  can  rise  indefinitely."

You're right. I was mislead by page 53: "The normal maximum for human beings is 21.". Where it discusses increasing characteristics by special response, which is the only way to increase INT, as far as I know.

 

[tooley1chris]

5 hours ago, smiorgan said:

You're right. I was mislead by page 53: "The normal maximum for human beings is 21.". Where it discusses increasing characteristics by special response, which is the only way to increase INT, as far as I know.

 

Me and the good Mr. Monroe had a conversation about this when Deep Magic came out in Advanced Sorcery. Mages rely on INT to gain new glyphs but how do you raise INT?

A battle of wits, winning strategy games such as chess. Exercising your PCs brain in a library. Not cannon but logical. 

[Sean_RDP]

A couple of more ideas..  Could a magician cannibalize their own body for more INT? Could they suck INT from other people? Those are things I have allowed in campaigns before. 

[K Peterson]

Cannibalize? I hope you don't mean literally.  I think it would be more effective to "suck" INT from other people than pull from your own diminishing resources. (Gather your dim-witted apprentices/cultists together and use them as your battery). I don't know if that capability exists within Advanced Sorcery, as-written.

Elric! had the spell Wisdom of Slortar which allowed for a temporary increase in the INT characteristic. Up to 9 extra INT, but the duration is limited to the caster's POW in rounds.

Different editions of RuneQuest had the Tap spell which did "characteristic-sucking" from unwilling participants. I can't remember, though, if that was a characteristic-drain-for-characteristic-gain, or if the drain converted into usable magic points...

 

 

[Sean_RDP]

24 minutes ago, K Peterson said:

Cannibalize? I hope you don't mean literally.

Sorcery Green is made from people lol...  

[smiorgan]

5 hours ago, tooley1chris said:

Me and the good Mr. Monroe had a conversation about this when Deep Magic came out in Advanced Sorcery. Mages rely on INT to gain new glyphs but how do you raise INT?

A battle of wits, winning strategy games such as chess. Exercising your PCs brain in a library. Not cannon but logical. 

Yes. INT can rise above 21 but the only way is "exceptional response". And INT:INT contests are not very frequent.The chess idea makes sense, Yet, in a game with no EDU I'd definitely allow training INT. Studying makes you smarter, I think this is not in the rules, though. I don't think you can train INT per the rules as written.

Best,

Andrea

 

 

[nDervish]

19 hours ago, K Peterson said:

Different editions of RuneQuest had the Tap spell which did "characteristic-sucking" from unwilling participants. I can't remember, though, if that was a characteristic-drain-for-characteristic-gain, or if the drain converted into usable magic points...

Can't speak to other editions, but the RQ6 Tap is characteristic-to-characteristic, at a 5:1 ratio.  ("For instance if a sorcerer cast Tap (STR) at Intensity 7 on four targets, each of the victims would lose seven points of STR whilst the sorcerer’s own strength would be augmented by +6 points.")

[Questbird]

On 3/11/2016 at 2:33 AM, K Peterson said:

Cannibalize? I hope you don't mean literally.  I think it would be more effective to "suck" INT from other people than pull from your own diminishing resources. (Gather your dim-witted apprentices/cultists together and use them as your battery). I don't know if that capability exists within Advanced Sorcery, as-written.

Elric! had the spell Wisdom of Slortar which allowed for a temporary increase in the INT characteristic. Up to 9 extra INT, but the duration is limited to the caster's POW in rounds.

Different editions of RuneQuest had the Tap spell which did "characteristic-sucking" from unwilling participants. I can't remember, though, if that was a characteristic-drain-for-characteristic-gain, or if the drain converted into usable magic points...

 

 

RQ had that cult (from RQ3 Shadows on the Borderlands) which steals knowledge - literally wiping books and scrolls clean, and storing the spells in mummified heads which the cultists would collect. It's not exactly cannibalism but it's pretty grotesque and it would make a good enemy cult.

I've heard of sorcerers sacrificing other stats to gain INT, eg. STR, CON. CHA or DEX, representing either diabolical deals or simply letting your body waste away as a consequence of too much Library Use.

Edited March 14, 2016 by Questbird

[soltakss]

7 hours ago, Questbird said:

RQ had that cult (from RQ3 Shadows on the Borderlands) which steals knowledge - literally wiping books and scrolls clean, and storing the spells in mummified heads which the cultists would collect. It's not exactly cannibalism but it's pretty grotesque and it would make a good enemy cult.

Thanatar - Groovy in so many ways.