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New RQ - Designer Notes Part Three


kpmcdona

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Here is the latest installment of the designer notes. Nothing new if you have been paying attention, but nice to see plainly stated.

http://www.chaosium.com/blog/designing-the-new-runequest-part-3

I am amused at my own discomfort in the essay when Jeff posed the following question and... answer? "But are we all still friends? Certainly, this is just what sometimes happens in business." The pedant in me thought it sounded evasive. He probably meant "Certainly. This is just what sometimes happens in business." Jeff, being a (former?) lawyer, will hopefully forgive my tendency to read literally.

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Personally, I guess I'm pleased at the direction you're going. It's less disruptive than I'd thought. If the updated runes and passions and personalities are somewhat modular, and the new rules set remains compatible with RQ2 and its line, and new scenarios can also be used with RQ2 with a minimum of fuss, then I (at least) get a decent compromise. I can look over the new rules additions, use only what I like, and ignore the rest. And I get new scenarios. So, I'll wait and see. Thanks.

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Temptation to tweak is too great? They hope to win over some fans who might otherwise not move to RQ2?

Personally, I'd stick with RQ2, and maybe add a supplement of alternate rules modules for the incorrigible folks who can't resist fiddling with a masterpiece.

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As far as the rules direction goes, yes I do like it, and it sounds what RQ4 should have been had not Mongoose become involved.

(But let's never call it RQ4, its too disrespectful to disregard all the good work done by the DM in RQ6)

I would not want a new edition just to be RQ2 all over again, given some of the more contemporary innovations in the rpg world. I like Pendragon passions, although I'm unsure that they may be too limiting nowadays, and perhaps there is another way of putting an emphasis on personality traits.

However I think it is smart that the RQ2 stat block will almost port directly across to the supplements for this edition, and vice versa. This is a worthwhile move purely in the fact that the Gloranthan Classic books are almost fully usable again regardless of edition.

I do like the overall direction that these new rules seem to be heading, and at this stage this is looking to be a good version of RQ.

I'll be the first to comment that I'm really digging the artwork of the Sable Rider :)

 

 

Edited by Mankcam

" Sure it's fun, but it is also well known that a D20 roll and an AC is no match against a hefty swing of a D100% and a D20 Hit Location Table!"

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Guest Vile Traveller

It sounds good to me so far! If that is an example of the new art, I like it (although it does remind me that we used to argue about the wisdom of sitting on the back of a giant sable). :)

praxians.jpg?t=1455401823

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1 hour ago, Mankcam said:

As far as the rules direction goes, yes I do like it, and it sounds what RQ4 should have been had not Mongoose become involved.

 

That is very much the goal of this edition. We have over thirty years of Greg's unpublished ideas, edits, and design concepts that were developed *for* RQ2 to draw on, plus Sandy, Ken, and Steve. What we have very much feels like "What RuneQuest would have been had Chaosium not done the Avalon Hill iicense (let alone the Mongoose license) and kept RQ2 as their active Gloranthan rules systems since then."

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4 hours ago, kpmcdona said:

Here is the latest installment of the designer notes. Nothing new if you have been paying attention, but nice to see plainly stated.

http://www.chaosium.com/blog/designing-the-new-runequest-part-3

I am amused at my own discomfort in the essay when Jeff posed the following question and... answer? "But are we all still friends? Certainly, this is just what sometimes happens in business." The pedant in me thought it sounded evasive. He probably meant "Certainly. This is just what sometimes happens in business." Jeff, being a (former?) lawyer, will hopefully forgive my tendency to read literally.

It should be edited to read, "Certainly. That is just what sometimes happens in business."

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2 hours ago, Mankcam said:

I like Pendragon passions, although I'm unsure that they may be too limiting nowadays, and perhaps there is another way of putting an emphasis on personality traits.

I like the way relationships (between anything and anyone) are handled in Monsters and Other Childish Things. This also maps to the way they can be used in Wild Talents, and blends with Loyalties and Passions (as well as being similar to Mission, Craving and Duty in Reign).

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6 hours ago, Mankcam said:

I like Pendragon passions, although I'm unsure that they may be too limiting nowadays, and perhaps there is another way of putting an emphasis on personality traits.

I like them too, but going heavily into that (or, really, any) sort of personality mechanic is a risky move, considering how many people look at it and reflexively object that "I should control my character's actions, not the dice!"

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16 minutes ago, jux said:

My question is, why you even reprinted RQ2? I understand it was additional cash-grab, but it clearly backfired as now the overall strategy for the new RQ product line had to be re-worked.

To expand a bit, it is also chance for people to buy hard-to-get and otherwise expensive publications, as well as a trip down memory lane. A case of a business sensibly meeting demand.

Hardly a backfire: if so it's a lucky one. RQ6 would have crashed meeting opposing goals: satisfying the current RQ6 product range and the demands of making a Rune-Quest set in Glorantha. Now RuneQuest has already 15 or so supplements and TheGameThatWasFormallyRuneQuest keeps its product range. Both will be better for the decision made.

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25 minutes ago, jongjom said:

To expand a bit, it is also chance for people to buy hard-to-get and otherwise expensive publications, as well as a trip down memory lane. A case of a business sensibly meeting demand.

Hardly a backfire: if so it's a lucky one. RQ6 would have crashed meeting opposing goals: satisfying the current RQ6 product range and the demands of making a Rune-Quest set in Glorantha. Now RuneQuest has already 15 or so supplements and TheGameThatWasFormallyRuneQuest keeps its product range. Both will be better for the decision made.

Then I would ask, why RQ6 was an option in the first place :P

It just seems very chaotic way of doing things, that just this Kickstarter is the basis of big design decisions. And also it is strange how fast they plan to finish this product. In few months, right? Does not look like they have correctly planned it out. 

It can be debated how much of a success D&D5 really is, but how they did the development really shows how they did it right. No rush, open discussion with fanbase, free testing releases. I have assumption the 5e is very solid release and fans of the game are generally happy with it. I think Chaosium could learn from them. Also, as the devs are not working together, but are separated and meet only online, is something I am doubtful.

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2 minutes ago, jux said:

Then I would ask, why RQ6 was an option in the first place :P

It just seems very chaotic way of doing things, that just this Kickstarter is the basis of big design decisions. And also it is strange how fast they plan to finish this product. In few months, right? Does not look like they have correctly planned it out. 

It can be debated how much of a success D&D5 really is, but how they did the development really shows how they did it right. No rush, open discussion with fanbase, free testing releases. I have assumption the 5e is very solid release and fans of the game are generally happy with it. I think Chaosium could learn from them. Also, as the devs are not working together, but are separated and meet only online, is something I am doubtful.

They played the hand that fate dealt them. They made decisions on information they had at the time. We're now looking back with the power of hindsight after major events (Moon Design now steering Chaosium and with an extra staff (2.5 FTE fulltime equivalent) now working; Design Mechanism realising the different direction they wanted to go; Kickstarter showing there is demand - it has currently raised over $250K along with Backerkit). They've allowed themselves to respond to changing circumstances. Kudos to them.

As to the speed of finishing the product. Allegedly it was started after last GenCon and has on board a phenomenal team (Sandy, Ken, Steve, as well as MD) tapping on decades of Greg's notes and experiences as well as their own considerable knowledge. They describe meeting up in person but in the new world online communication has come of age. They have begun discussing what they are doing, started testing the game and will no doubt spread the net further when needed. Yes, it's hard to keep up with them!

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13 minutes ago, jux said:

Also, as the devs are not working together, but are separated and meet only online, is something I am doubtful.

There is a lot you can do collaborating online, and I can attest that at least Jeff Richard has years of experience with that. Nowadays with hangouts available you can do everything (but physically manipulate what your cooperators have in front of them) online. Separating the development tasks into areas of expertise sounds like the smart thing to do at the current stage of the project.

Earlier attempts at a RQ4 over 20 years ago probably suffered from too much open discussion with the fanbase. Those experiences are still available to the current designers, too.

What is being designed is a RQ tailored to the setting of Glorantha. RQ2 managed to convey that impression rather well, and did so on admirably little space when compared to other contemporary rpgs. It failed to address core regions of Greg's Glorantha even back then - the entire Malkioni body of background was left uncovered while RQ2 lasted.

The existing Glorantha fanbase is going to follow RQ Glorantha. The existing RQ (6) fanbase unhappy with Glorantha will probably take a good look at the adaptations for Glorantha and see how to transfer those to the setting of their choice. I know I did when I designed a setting useable with RQ3 Vikings, inheriting lots of other BRP ideas for magic, and adapting the body of Gloranthan magic for that setting.

From a player perspective, I was perfectly happy to sit in one of Loz' Harreksaga games (at that time using MRQ2 while RQ6 was under development) finding the expected range of magical abilities and mundane prowess for that sample character. As a GM designing my own scenarios or campaigns, I  need quite a bit more background info than just a few sample characters.

One of the main attractions which sold me on RQ (quite a while before I got sold on Glorantha) was the information on world building and magical ecology in the RQ3 Gamemaster book (first encountered in its Games Workshop edition). Pretty much everything I needed to design the setting. I don't expect to find this in the upcoming project because you don't need this to run a game - especially not when you use the available body of scenarios from previous editions.

For newcomers to pick up a game and start playing it, the slim format of RQ2 or Elric! was perfect. As this community attests, BRP is an engine easy to grasp and to adapt to, and what we want RQ Glorantha to be is an avenue for new players to explore the weirdness and richness of Glorantha. When it comes to playtesting, I would propose getting feedback from GMs and players outside of the existing fan base rather than from the nitpicking grognards - these will find plenty to match their personal preferences and to irate their personal pet peeves anyway, whichever direction the development may go. This situation is markedly different from that the developers of D&D5 were facing - they had to bring the straying converted D&Ders back into the fold from their excursions to related systems like Pathfinder et al., while what Chaosium needs to do is to convert the non-RQ/non-Gloranthan population of roleplayers and of role-playing layfolk (muggles).

 

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Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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1 hour ago, jux said:

Then I would ask, why RQ6 was an option in the first place :P

The point is not why it was an option in the first place, it is why they were so eager to make announcements about the new RQ before the kickstarter had shown which was the best option business-wise. Had they kept silent on the subject until the release of the design notes, nobody would now question them on the subject.

 

12 minutes ago, Joerg said:

For newcomers to pick up a game and start playing it, the slim format of RQ2 or Elric! was perfect. As this community attests, BRP is an engine easy to grasp and to adapt to, and what we want RQ Glorantha to be is an avenue for new players to explore the weirdness and richness of Glorantha. When it comes to playtesting, I would propose getting feedback from GMs and players outside of the existing fan base rather than from the nitpicking grognards - these will find plenty to match their personal preferences and to irate their personal pet peeves anyway, whichever direction the development may go. This situation is markedly different from that the developers of D&D5 were facing - they had to bring the straying converted D&Ders back into the fold from their excursions to related systems like Pathfinder et al., while what Chaosium needs to do is to convert the non-RQ/non-Gloranthan population of roleplayers and of role-playing layfolk (muggles).

I agree with you on the goal, Joerg, but not on the tool. If the task is to "make Glorantha appeal to a wider audience", then 13th Age in Glorantha is a better bait. It is D20, so it starts with a wider audience outside the Glorantha fan community.

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3 minutes ago, RosenMcStern said:

I agree with you on the goal, Joerg, but not on the tool. If the task is to "make Glorantha appeal to a wider audience", then 13th Age in Glorantha is a better bait. It is D20, so it starts with a wider audience outside the Glorantha fan community.

Hmm that would seem to be a mistake. Those rules are still untested and have no major playtesting comparable to decades of RQ2.

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2 minutes ago, Sayerson said:

Hmm that would seem to be a mistake. Those rules are still untested and have no major playtesting comparable to decades of RQ2.

The core 13th Age rules have been thoroughly playtested, and are rock solid. Heinsoo and Tweet are terribly exigent when it comes to testing their stuff: I am a backer of the project and I am aware of the time Rob is taking to ensure the quality of the product. I see no reason to think the Glorantha version will be less playtested than the new RQ, which will not be RQ2 but a derivative which is being playtested now.

 

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When you also have the port of RQ to a different system as opposed to a standing system with a ready fan base? 

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Just now, RosenMcStern said:

I agree with you on the goal, Joerg, but not on the tool. If the task is to "make Glorantha appeal to a wider audience", then 13th Age in Glorantha is a better bait. It is D20, so it starts with a wider audience outside the Glorantha fan community.

There is a lasting familiarity with the BRP mechanics thanks to the legacy of Call of Cthulhu, even if it has given up the position as most popular secondary rpg years ago.

Looking at the homebrew offerings of e.g. the idiosyncratic and in commercial terms quite small German market, I think that the least hurdle for a system change for one of the three Gloranthan systems would be RuneQuest. You'd still have to sell the different background.

Dropping approved adaptation kits for other established systems may create a few Glorantha converts among other niche roleplayers, too - like e.g. a Fate adaptation. These are enthusiastic players and GMs willing to try out new stuff, and probably proselytize it for a while, but this very nature may make them go their own ways afterwards, too. While generating some sales and possibly expanding the fan base somewhat, I see a larger target group in people barely involved in roleplaying, but e.g. fascinated by Game of Thrones and similar media phenomena. Seeing how thirty years ago "Das Schwarze Auge" (DSA) was picked up by thousands of German players who don't interact with the roleplaying communities at all, and hardly ever with other players outside their personal gaming groups, the potential there might be just below our radar. (I have to add that there is a thriving DSA community that keeps attracting non-gamers, too, ably aided by expansion to other media like the Drakensang online game employing @Jason Durall right now.)

What system would you propose for a target group - let's call them young adults, like the book sellers do - that has had no real exposure to roleplaying but might be hooked? Especially if there are to be no old farts like our generation involved in setting up the game and running it?

Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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But as you're backing that, I can see the appeal. Concurrent playtests all around.

 

Edited by Sayerson
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3 minutes ago, Joerg said:

What system would you propose for a target group - let's call them young adults, like the book sellers do - that has had no real exposure to roleplaying but might be hooked? Especially if there are to be no old farts like our generation involved in setting up the game and running it?

13th Age, as it leverages a familiarity with D20 that is much more widespread than one might think: there's a lot of non-tabletop RPG players who had exposure to D&D through Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights and now Sword Coast Adventures - and BG is still available from Beamdog - actually, I play it a lot ^_^.

For people who have never played a combat-centered RPG, a Powered by the Apocalypse game would be the quickest solution. But definitely not based on Dungeon World, which leverages the parts of D&D that are farthest from the Glorantha experience. Sagas of the Icelanders would fare much better (Sagas of the Heortlings....).

@Sayerson: there is no "port" of RQ to 13th Age. It is just the addition of Glorantha content to a game of its own. Which was designed by two hardcore Glorantha fans who always had bits and pieces of Glorantha in mind when creating the default setting for it.

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@RosenMcStern Um that's the definition of a "port" but your point on the 13th age ruleset is agreed on as tested. I just believe that it would still be a mistake as the adaption is still being tweaked for a ruleset that RQ/BRP divorced itself from awhile back. But potato, potahto. 

One of the surprising vehicles for targeting new players seemed to be the King of Dragon Pass software game. At least for peaking interest in a Glorantha specific setting for new players without stepping into a rule system This actually surprised me but is still an untapped avenue even with a new version of the software under development. 

 

Edited by Sayerson
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3 hours ago, Joerg said:
2 hours ago, Joerg said:

@Jason Durall

What system would you propose for a target group - let's call them young adults, like the book sellers do - that has had no real exposure to roleplaying but might be hooked? Especially if there are to be no old farts like our generation involved in setting up the game and running it?

 

 

Whatever the system, if you want to be realy successful in [chose a non-English speaking country], I'm convinced you have to translate it. DSA was the first RPG in German, it certainly explains its success.

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