Aeolian Church - Heortland

[M Helsdon]

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

No, I haven't read that yet yet, I would be drawing on RQ3 Gods of Glorantha, Hero Wars and ToTRM for such definitions. 

Be advised, before performing a heroquest, that there have been significant changes in canon since the latter two were published, and lesser changes since Gods of Glorantha was published. Virtually all Mongoose material is highly suspect.

Edited June 23, 2016 by M Helsdon

[Evilroddy]

So can Aeolian magic users have access to spirit magic, pagan divine magic and sorcery spells all at the same time? Or are there boundaries which constrain practioners of the Aeolian rites and way? If Aeolian worship is a hybrid of Brithini aetheism and pagan deism, does it predate the rise of the Rokari sect within Malkionism? How long has the Aeolian rite existed and what are its geographical and 'mythographical' origins? Was it born in the southern Heortlands or imported from abroad and simply fused two local and pre-existing faiths together to arrive at its present-day form?

Enquiring minds (and souls) want to know!

Cheers.

Evilroddy.

And no, I'm not an insidious riddler bent on warping your souls! So stop thinking that right now!

Edited July 5, 2016 by Evilroddy

[Joerg]

5 minutes ago, Evilroddy said:

So can Aeolian magic users have access to spirit magic, pagan divine magic and sorcery spells all at the same time? Or are there boundaries which constrain practioners of the Aeolian rites and way?

The way I always played the Aeolians is that they have sorcery instead of Spirit Magic. In RQ terms that means that the Aeolians don't have the Spell Teaching divine spell.

There are other ways to acquire spirit magic (like friendly theist cults or shamans), but their sect isn't one of them.

5 minutes ago, Evilroddy said:

If Aeolian worship is a hybrid of Brithini aetheism and pagan deism, does it predate the rise of the Rokari sect within Malkionism? How long has the Aeolian rite existed and what are its geographical and 'mythographical' origins? Was it born in the southern Heortlands or imported from abroad and simply fused two local and pre-existing faiths together to arrive at its present-day form?

Rokarism definitely is younger than Aeolianism. History of the Heortling Peoples mentions the Esvulari (the southern Heortland tribe practicing Aeolianism) as one of the five foreigner groups required to pay special protection to the Hendriki kings.

There is no clear evidence in canonical sources that the sect existed prior to the coming of Arkat, but it doesn't look like the Esvulari spent the first four centuries of Time as Ingareen atheists.

There is little doubt that Aeolianism is a fusion of Ingareen sorcery and Theyalan theism, The Ingareens stayed clear of the Orlanthi influence, while the Esvulari adopted it. They were part of the Kingdom of Night, probably already back in the Silver Age. In the Guide, Jon Barat is listed as the Dawn survival site of the Ingareens, no mention of Esvulari. This points to early Dawn Age as the formation of the Esvulari tribe and their discovery of Aeolianism.

 

[metcalph]

7 hours ago, Evilroddy said:

So can Aeolian magic users have access to spirit magic, pagan divine magic and sorcery spells all at the same time? Or are there boundaries which constrain practioners of the Aeolian rites and way? If Aeolian worship is a hybrid of Brithini aetheism and pagan deism, does it predate the rise of the Rokari sect within Malkionism? How long has the Aeolian rite existed and what are its geographical and 'mythographical' origins? Was it born in the southern Heortlands or imported from abroad and simply fused two local and pre-existing faiths together to arrive at its present-day form?

I think it best to state it this way:

Aeolians are Orlanthi.  They look hear smell and otherwise talk like Orlanthi.  Where they differ is that they support a school of wizards.  These wizards make special claims about the Cosmos that very few non-wizards can understand.  The Aeolians do not believe in these special claims but they do believe in the Wizards.  Wizard knowledge is similar to knowledge of heart surgery or quantum mechanics - something which most folks don't understand but they sure are grateful to the wizards for mastering this knowledge.

Although the Aeolians came from the region of God Forgot, God Forgot only adopted Brithini ways after the fall of the Machine City (and the resulting spiritual catastrophe).  Thus the Aeolians of Esvular are closer to the original Aeolians (the Intagreens of Jon Barat) than the current God Forgottens.

[metcalph]

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

There is little doubt that Aeolianism is a fusion of Ingareen sorcery and Theyalan theism, The Ingareens stayed clear of the Orlanthi influence, while the Esvulari adopted it. They were part of the Kingdom of Night, probably already back in the Silver Age. In the Guide, Jon Barat is listed as the Dawn survival site of the Ingareens, no mention of Esvulari. This points to early Dawn Age as the formation of the Esvulari tribe and their discovery of Aeolianism.

 

The ingareens adopted Orlanthi ways just like the Esvulari did.  They then adopted God Learner ways and ended up in a horrible place.  So they adopted Brithini ways as they no longer had any dreams.

There is an important difference between the Brithini of Arolanit and the God Forgottens.  The God Forgottens are still attached to the Purification Rune (as per the Middle Sea Empire and also the Holy Country chapter of Prince of Sartar graphic novel) which looks like a Moon Rune (hinted as long ago as Pavis: Threshold to Danger whence the Wand of the Seven Phases of the Moon comes from the Machine City).  They don't use it to master chaos but they do use it to purify themselves to draw closer to the God who has forgotten them.

[Evilroddy]

Quote

There is an important difference between the Brithini of Arolanit and the God Forgottens.  The God Forgottens are still attached to the Purification Rune (as per the Middle Sea Empire and also the Holy Country chapter of Prince of Sartar graphic novel) which looks like a Moon Rune (hinted as long ago as Pavis: Threshold to Danger whence the Wand of the Seven Phases of the Moon comes from the Machine City).  They don't use it to master chaos but they do use it to purify themselves to draw closer to the God who has forgotten them.

metcalph:

Wow, that is mind blowing stuff and it throws my albeit limited and old-fashioned understanding of the God-Forgotters into a complete re-think. Thanks for giving me much to think about. My mind is blown! Having not seen the sources which you have cited I will blindly speculate and ask the following question. Is the pseudo-moon purification rune you associate with Ingareen Brithini iconography and symbolism related to Anillia and her tidal cycles of renewal and the blue-streak?

Cheers and good gaming.

Rod Robertson

[Joerg]

2 hours ago, metcalph said:

The ingareens adopted Orlanthi ways just like the Esvulari did.  They then adopted God Learner ways and ended up in a horrible place.  So they adopted Brithini ways as they no longer had any dreams.

The Guide p.711 makes it quite clear that they started out as Malkioni using the Brithini caste system. The historical maps in the Guide show Ingareens up to 700 ST, then they show Esvulari on and off in southern Heortland.

Quote

There is an important difference between the Brithini of Arolanit and the God Forgottens.  The God Forgottens are still attached to the Purification Rune (as per the Middle Sea Empire and also the Holy Country chapter of Prince of Sartar graphic novel) which looks like a Moon Rune (hinted as long ago as Pavis: Threshold to Danger whence the Wand of the Seven Phases of the Moon comes from the Machine City).  They don't use it to master chaos but they do use it to purify themselves to draw closer to the God who has forgotten them.

The Purification Rune business isn't that well documented - the two pages in Middle Sea Empire aren't quite conclusive, and the epilogue there claims that the rune had no real meaning.

The other difference is that the majority of the God Forgotten imitate the Brithini life, but they don't achieve agelessness.

 

The wand of the seven phases of the moon is claimed to have been found in the Machine Ruins, but the text doesn't confirm its origin there, and provides the alternative of a Lunar quester having lost that item. Given that it has come to Raus as a heirloom, it must have come to Kostaddi some time after Tarsh first became Lunar (1490). The wand's description makes it clear that it consists of seven runes, not a single one. How is this tied to Purification?

Moon has a known presence in that Otherworld Holy Country mapped in Arcane Lore, and its connection to God Forgot is clearly shown in the Prince of Sartar comic. The moon also has the meaning of Balance. Again, why Purification?

 

Edited July 5, 2016 by Joerg

[metcalph]

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

The Guide p.711 makes it quite clear that they started out as Malkioni using the Brithini caste system. The historical maps in the Guide show Ingareens up to 700 ST, then they show Esvulari on and off in southern Heortland.

*All* Malkioni were using the Brithini caste system at the Dawn!  The Ingareens are not Brithini being descendents of thos who travelled with Malkion on the Expulsion Walk.  As for the Historical Maps, all that it shows is that some Ingareens were living under Heortling rule circa 700 ST.  It does not imply that a split has taken place.

 

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

The Purification Rune business isn't that well documented - the two pages in Middle Sea Empire aren't quite conclusive, and the epilogue there claims that the rune had no real meaning.

So where did the God Forgotten get the Moon Rune from?  You know the one that appears among the parts of the Holy Country sent by Belintar against Harrek in the Prince of Sartar Webzine?  And the very purpose of the Purification Rune is remarkably close to what the Lunars claim for the Moon Rune.  

 

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

 

The wand of the seven phases of the moon is claimed to have been found in the Machine Ruins, but the text doesn't confirm its origin there, and provides the alternative of a Lunar quester having lost that item. Given that it has come to Raus as a heirloom, it must have come to Kostaddi some time after Tarsh first became Lunar (1490). The wand's description makes it clear that it consists of seven runes, not a single one. How is this tied to Purification?

p46 of the PDF, "Yet the Abiding Book said, "The Purpose of Life is to be closer to God."  No rune itself addressed the power that reversed the process of Devolution.  Malkion the Sacrifice had stopped it and infused Creation with a Divine Spark but not yet released was the New Rune to follow.  "It is through Purification that the New World will be made," he declared.

The seven runes of the wand are the Seven Phases of the Red Moon in which one goes through darkness in order to become closer to God/the All whatever.  There is nothing there that is alien to God Learner or Zistorite thought.

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

Moon has a known presence in that Otherworld Holy Country mapped in Arcane Lore, and its connection to God Forgot is clearly shown in the Prince of Sartar comic. The moon also has the meaning of Balance. Again, why Purification?

How did the Moon Rune get to the Holy Country then?  And why the attempt to deny that the Lunar use the Moon Rune for enlightenment rather than balance?

 

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

The Ingareens are not Brithini being descendents of thos who travelled with Malkion on the Expulsion Walk.

What is the evidence for the Ingareens to have been part of the Expulsion Walk? According to the mythical maps in the Guide, the city of New Malkonwal was situated at the western shore of (then inland) Faralinthor Sea, which translates roughly to somewhere in the Solkathi Sea south of Tarinwood. There is no evidence that Malkion walked all the way to Kethaela, despite possible claims that New Malkonwal is in the place of original Malkonwal.

I used to think of the Ingareens as one of the colonies dropped by Waertagi ships - possibly during the Ice Age, or after the Great Blast. The presence of Sog's Ruins just east of God Forgot, and Waertagi drydocks in Nochet, does suggest that the Waertagi used to visit the region.

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

As for the Historical Maps, all that it shows is that some Ingareens were living under Heortling rule circa 700 ST.  It does not imply that a split has taken place.

I think there was a split between the Leftarm Islanders and the mainland Esvulari earlier on. Refuge in the Bandori Valley remained a place of contact. Refuge is mentioned in the Malkioni document on Aeolianism in HotHP p.82. This document doesn't mention either Esvulari or Ingareens, but mentions their expansion into Kethaela. (A Nochet presence is likely older than this expansion, which does manifest in the city of Leskos, for instance. See GtG p.255 and the write-up of the Slontos wars.) It does suggest that the Aeolians are different from the immortal rulers of Refuge, though. The Guide entry on Refuge says that the immortal rulers of Refuge _are_ Brithini.

HotHP offers some early mention of the Esvularings on p.71 as one of the five foreigner groups in Heortland during the Gbaji Wars and the onset of the Second age. The Ingareens are mainly mentioned as survivor group in Jon Barat and for being contacted by the Zistori for establishing the Clanking City.

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

 

Quote

The Purification Rune business isn't that well documented - the two pages in Middle Sea Empire aren't quite conclusive, and the epilogue there claims that the rune had no real meaning.

So where did the God Forgotten get the Moon Rune from?  You know the one that appears among the parts of the Holy Country sent by Belintar against Harrek in the Prince of Sartar Webzine?  And the very purpose of the Purification Rune is remarkably close to what the Lunars claim for the Moon Rune.  

The obvious answer is: from the Blue Moon that dictates the tides, which are a big deal in both Arms of the Kethaelan archipelago.

The Zistorite materialist method of deconstruction and rebuilding from scratch (or rather from blueprint) appears to be somewhat different from the Lunar mystical approach of Liberation.

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

Quote

 

The wand of the seven phases of the moon is claimed to have been found in the Machine Ruins, but the text doesn't confirm its origin there, and provides the alternative of a Lunar quester having lost that item. Given that it has come to Raus as a heirloom, it must have come to Kostaddi some time after Tarsh first became Lunar (1490). The wand's description makes it clear that it consists of seven runes, not a single one. How is this tied to Purification?

p46 of the PDF, "Yet the Abiding Book said, "The Purpose of Life is to be closer to God."  No rune itself addressed the power that reversed the process of Devolution.  Malkion the Sacrifice had stopped it and infused Creation with a Divine Spark but not yet released was the New Rune to follow.  "It is through Purification that the New World will be made," he declared.

Is the New Rune bit a part of the orthodox Abiding Book, or is it part of a heterodox, Zistorite nostrum?

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

The seven runes of the wand are the Seven Phases of the Red Moon in which one goes through darkness in order to become closer to God/the All whatever.  There is nothing there that is alien to God Learner or Zistorite thought.

There is an obvious problem with the Seven Phases bit: the Red Moon of Rufelza is the first lunar body to exhibit these seven phases. And at the time of the Clanking City Sedenya still was stuck in the invisible blue Orogeria manifestation, the fifth or sixth in the Lunar sequence, depending on whether you count Nysalora as a separate phase. (Natha had always been around since the age of Gartemirus, and was not yet a Rufelza avatar.)

 

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

Quote

Moon has a known presence in that Otherworld Holy Country mapped in Arcane Lore, and its connection to God Forgot is clearly shown in the Prince of Sartar comic. The moon also has the meaning of Balance. Again, why Purification?

How did the Moon Rune get to the Holy Country then?

I think that Belintar encountered it on his journeys to the magical version of the Holy Country, where it manifests as three mountains dedicated to the white, blue and red moon.

The dominant moon influence in God Forgot are the tides, tied to the Blue Streak.

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

And why the attempt to deny that the Lunar use the Moon Rune for enlightenment rather than balance?

The Lunars weren't around at the time the Zistorites came to God Forgot in order to exploit the imbalance in "the World is made of everything" that was locally in favor of materialist magics, to an extent that magical swords lost their magic when leaving the region. And while the Zistorite activities may have created an alternate reality similar to the effects caused by the Bright Empire, the EWF, or the Glowline, their decision to go there in the first place resulted from a predisposition to their kind of magic, an effect that was stronger than anywhere in classically Malkioni territories.

The Lunar rune probably was known before 1247. It is associated with mysticism, balance, possibly enlightenment.

[Evilroddy]

metcalph, Jeorg and other wise magi:

Wow, this is a very interesting discussion. Thank you so much for your insights and speculation. My head is spinning!

Cheers and good gaming.

Evilroddy.

[jajagappa]

21 hours ago, Joerg said:

The way I always played the Aeolians is that they have sorcery instead of Spirit Magic.

That is how I approached my Esvulari character from Nochet in a short-lived HQG campaign.  Although she had become an Argrathi warlock, she was Esvulari by birth and one of her Runes was Law, from which she had an Earth-based grimoire as follows.

Rune: Law 1W

(Personality Traits: logical, exacting)

• Initiate of the Aeolian Temple

• Grimoire: Earnalda's Calendar of Magicks +1

This grimoire contains spells pertaining to the earth and earth cycle. Spells include:

○ Plough through Earth (earth, movement)

○ Shatter Bones of Earth  (earth, disorder)

○ Mend Body with Earth  (earth, harmony)

○ Hide Treasure in Earth (earth, fate)

○ Draw Endurance from Earth (earth, stasis)

[metcalph]

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

What is the evidence for the Ingareens to have been part of the Expulsion Walk? According to the mythical maps in the Guide, the city of New Malkonwal was situated at the western shore of (then inland) Faralinthor Sea, which translates roughly to somewhere in the Solkathi Sea south of Tarinwood. There is no evidence that Malkion walked all the way to Kethaela, despite possible claims that New Malkonwal is in the place of original Malkonwal.

There are no other Malkioni in the vicinity of Kethaela are there?  New Malkonwal is the closest mythical settlement of Malkioni to either Slontos or God Forgot.  All that's needed is for Malkion settlers to settle either side of the Faralinthor Sea from New Malkonwal and you have the Storm Age origins of Slontos and God Forgot.

 

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

I used to think of the Ingareens as one of the colonies dropped by Waertagi ships - possibly during the Ice Age, or after the Great Blast. The presence of Sog's Ruins just east of God Forgot, and Waertagi drydocks in Nochet, does suggest that the Waertagi used to visit the region.

Except there's no Waertagi drydock around God Forgot and there's no Brithini population around Sog's Ruins.  And Sog's Ruins dates from the Flood rather than the Great Blast or the Ice Age.  There 

 

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

I think there was a split between the Leftarm Islanders and the mainland Esvulari earlier on. Refuge in the Bandori Valley remained a place of contact. Refuge is mentioned in the Malkioni document on Aeolianism in HotHP p.82. This document doesn't mention either Esvulari or Ingareens, but mentions their expansion into Kethaela. (A Nochet presence is likely older than this expansion, which does manifest in the city of Leskos, for instance. See GtG p.255 and the write-up of the Slontos wars.) It does suggest that the Aeolians are different from the immortal rulers of Refuge, though. The Guide entry on Refuge says that the immortal rulers of Refuge _are_ Brithini.

So?  I said they became Brithini *after* the destruction of the Machine City. All the sources you quote show at best was that there was population movement into Esvular and says nothing about their faith.

 

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

There is an obvious problem with the Seven Phases bit: the Red Moon of Rufelza is the first lunar body to exhibit these seven phases. And at the time of the Clanking City Sedenya still was stuck in the invisible blue Orogeria manifestation, the fifth or sixth in the Lunar sequence, depending on whether you count Nysalora as a separate phase. (Natha had always been around since the age of Gartemirus, and was not yet a Rufelza avatar.)

Who said the phases had to be visible on the Moon.  Look at the Water Corkscrew (A core part of Zistorite philosophy as KoS p80 tells us).  The phases are the representation of the Water (allegorically the soul) as it passes through the Corkscrew travelling from a lower level to a higher one.  No need for any silly celestial observations.  That modern Lunars chose to interpret diagrams of corkscrew water levels as lunar phases is yet another example of Lunars seeing their goddess in everything regardless of whether it actually was.

 

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

I think that Belintar encountered it on his journeys to the magical version of the Holy Country, where it manifests as three mountains dedicated to the white, blue and red moon.

Leaving aside the canon status of anything in Arcane Lore, why would the Moon be there?  And would would the supposedly ultraconservative Brithini choose to associate themselves with the Moon?  

 

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

The Lunars weren't around at the time the Zistorites came to God Forgot in order to exploit the imbalance in "the World is made of everything" that was locally in favor of materialist magics, to an extent that magical swords lost their magic when leaving the region.

Where is the reference for magical swords losing their magic when taking out of God Forgot?  And the first part of your statement has several implicit assumptions that you have yet to substantiate (such as the ZIstorites were in it for materialistic purposes - Their philosophy as described in the Middle Sea Empire was to elevate the material world into a more spiritual state).

Anyway I must leave here.  Have bought the Coming Storm to read.

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

Posted 1 hour ago · Report post

9 hours ago, Joerg said:

What is the evidence for the Ingareens to have been part of the Expulsion Walk?

There are no other Malkioni in the vicinity of Kethaela are there?

We get repeated mention of Brithini in Refuge. While they may have settled there as part of the purging during the nascent Middle Sea Empire, it looks like they may have been there longer. However, Refuge is not mentioned among the Dawn Age settlements, so a pre-Dawn presence appears to be dubious.

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

 New Malkonwal is the closest mythical settlement of Malkioni to either Slontos or God Forgot.  All that's needed is for Malkion settlers to settle either side of the Faralinthor Sea from New Malkonwal and you have the Storm Age origins of Slontos and God Forgot.

The Malkioni in Slontos seem to appear around the second or third century ST. Around the same time the Olodo took passage to Jrustela.

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

Except there's no Waertagi drydock around God Forgot and there's no Brithini population around Sog's Ruins.  And Sog's Ruins dates from the Flood rather than the Great Blast or the Ice Age.  There 

During the Flood, Sog's Ruins would have been completely under the Osliran Sea, so that doesn't seem to be an option.

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

Quote

I think there was a split between the Leftarm Islanders and the mainland Esvulari earlier on. Refuge in the Bandori Valley remained a place of contact. Refuge is mentioned in the Malkioni document on Aeolianism in HotHP p.82. This document doesn't mention either Esvulari or Ingareens, but mentions their expansion into Kethaela. (A Nochet presence is likely older than this expansion, which does manifest in the city of Leskos, for instance. See GtG p.255 and the write-up of the Slontos wars.) It does suggest that the Aeolians are different from the immortal rulers of Refuge, though. The Guide entry on Refuge says that the immortal rulers of Refuge _are_ Brithini.

So?  I said they became Brithini *after* the destruction of the Machine City. All the sources you quote show at best was that there was population movement into Esvular and says nothing about their faith.

There is no mention of Ingareens at the settlement of Leskos or in the God Learner travelogue through Hendrikiland, but Esvulari are mentioned. And there is no mention of Esvulari when the Zistorites contact the Ingareens to establish Locsil. This does seem to indicate that the Ingareens and the Esvulari were different folk at that time. Refuge is consistently described as "ruled by Brithini, allied with the Bandori tribe of the Esvularings". This looks like the place where the two different groups maintain contact.

The Zistorite essay in Middle Sea Empire specifies that the Ingareens of Kostern lived amid their Zzaburite neighbors:

Quote

Middle Sea Empire p.47

Locsil Island [was] a stronghold for Runic Identification. It began in 740. The local Ingareens, who had accepted the Abiding Book amidst their Zzaburite neighbors, invited a band of Jrusteli missionaries to their lands on Kostern Island. The monks were of the Order of Core Runes. They were given land for a monastery on Locsil Island. Locsil Island was later known as Zistorela. It is in a small bay at the southern tip of Kostern Island, the southernmost of the Leftarm Isles.

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

Quote

There is an obvious problem with the Seven Phases bit: the Red Moon of Rufelza is the first lunar body to exhibit these seven phases.

Who said the phases had to be visible on the Moon.  Look at the Water Corkscrew (A core part of Zistorite philosophy as KoS p80 tells us).  The phases are the representation of the Water (allegorically the soul) as it passes through the Corkscrew travelling from a lower level to a higher one.  No need for any silly celestial observations.  That modern Lunars chose to interpret diagrams of corkscrew water levels as lunar phases is yet another example of Lunars seeing their goddess in everything regardless of whether it actually was.

I don't follow this interpretation. Was the Wand present in Peloria in 1247, and did the Lunars use those runes to assign them to the phases of a seven day cycle?

Why would the water inside a corkscrew bulge upward or downward, and why would anyone position the water level in the rune vertically?

Your allegory of the soul passing through the corkscrew is cute. Just what Malkioni concept of soul are we talking about, though?

A rune-covered water corkscrew would of course be a genious hybrid of prayer wheel and practical application wherever irrigation was required to guarantee the crop. God Forgot probably gets enough precipitation to go without irrigation, though.

 

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

And would would the supposedly ultraconservative Brithini choose to associate themselves with the Moon?  

The Ingareens are portrayed as too curious and inventive for their own good rather than ultraconservative (which may have been a good reason to encourage them to colonize a place rather far away from Brithos).

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

Quote

The Lunars weren't around at the time the Zistorites came to God Forgot in order to exploit the imbalance in "the World is made of everything" that was locally in favor of materialist magics, to an extent that magical swords lost their magic when leaving the region.

Where is the reference for magical swords losing their magic when taking out of God Forgot?  

Middle Sea Empire, bottom of first column page 47, continued in the second column:

Quote

One of the first accomplishment was the manufacture of mass produced magical items, starting with simple swords. They tended to work only in Kostern, so the empire did not benefit as had been hoped.

Kostern being the big southern island of the Leftarm archipelago.

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

And the first part of your statement has several implicit assumptions that you have yet to substantiate (such as the ZIstorites were in it for materialistic purposes - Their philosophy as described in the Middle Sea Empire was to elevate the material world into a more spiritual state).

All Malkioni philosophies are Materialist by definition - they see the world as energies and matter. Their aim is stated to recreate the state of (presumably Fourth Action) Danmalastan. (Middle Sea Empire p.47:)

Quote

The ultimate task of the Zistor Power as to purify the world that had been turned into Everything. It was essentially going to destroy the Everything World and recycle everything into its true components, sorting and distributing power and matter to increase the Core Runes. Once done Danmalastan would be reproduced and hte entire world would be as close to Solace as possible. Zistorites often talked about the City To Be, the remanifestation of the First City that had ceased to exist in its primal form after end of the Third Action.

It was spectacularly successful, until it failed.

The Orlanthi describe this process of Purification as Tapping, btw. (King of Sartar p.80):

Quote

Zistor had an evil brother named Gorings the Tap, who twisted Bingista, and another which we can’t remember any more, and made them into the food for Zistor. For two years, no wind blew in Dragon Pass, until a settlement was made for peace.

 

 

[David Scott]

22 hours ago, Joerg said:

The Lunar rune probably was known before 1247. It is associated with mysticism, balance, possibly enlightenment.

It's been known in Prax since the Dawn.

[Evilroddy]

If Aeolian culture in the Heortlands is just an Orlanthi culture with a Church and a magical elite laminated on top of it, then what role does the Aeolian Church play in Esvulari society? Is it just a collection of churches and small colleges serving the upper most strata of Esvulari society or does it have real day-to-day connections with the whole Esvulari population? Are Esvulari peasants and craftsmen more likely to have stronger ties to pagan cults and rites but wizards less? Does the Aeolian Church struggle to keep the rank and file in the fold or does it allow its adherents to explore pagan, Brithini and now Rokari beliefs and rites? Is there an Aeolian body of orthodoxy with authority to keep the faith and is there some sort of an 'inquisition' or cannonical authority which can use coercion to protect the faith? Are the wizard class/caste mostly connected to and part of the Church hierarchy or are there many free mages who while being nominally Aeolian are mostly involved with the temporal world and their own pursuits?

How does the Aeolian Church reconcile the use of sorcery with the traditional Orlanthi suspicion/out-right hatred of sorcery? Why hasn't Esvulari society been ripped apart or assailed from outside by Meldek feuds and wars? Presumably cynical pagan leaders have tried to whip up sorcery-based bugbears to weaken Aeolian power and to further their own pagan interests? I'm sure the God-king's governors try to tamp this down but it would seem to me that sectarian violence would be an issue despite the governors' best efforts.

Does the Aeolian Church try to enforce the old caste system of the Brithini (and presumably the Ingareen God Forgotten) or do they have a community without caste distinctions like the Orlanthi? If the latter is true, then who can become an Aeolian adept of magic and who is barred from such pursuits? Is it a merit-based system or is it expensive and therefore open to only those of substantial economic means or is it associated with class and birth rather than caste per se? While I presume Aeolian colleges would only likely teach approved magic (ie. sorcery), can students of magic also acquire spirit/folk magic and if associated with a pagan cult like Lhankor Mhy or Ernalda/Chalana Arroy could they also have access to divine magic and rituals?

Finally, what role does the Aeolian Church play in temporal matters? Does it have lands or revenue grants (like Turkish Igta) which give it economic and temporal power or does it depend on tithes, donations and wizardry revenues to maintain the Church? Are powerful urban guilds dominated by Aeolians as opposed to pagans and more recently Rokari and thus are such guilds an unofficial arm of the Aeolian Church, sort of like Muslim brotherhoods were in Egypt or the Abbasid Caliphate? Are Aeolian land owners beholden to the Church more than other Aeolians and do local Aeolian military elites form a sort of 'Church Militant' to protect and promote the interests of the Aeolian Church?

I hope my many questions are not too much of a burden, but the Heortlands was a major locale for mine and others in my old gaming group's campaigns, so I am very interested how this newer version of the Heortlands unfolds and reveals itself. 

Cheers and good gaming.

Evilroddy.

Edited July 7, 2016 by Evilroddy

[metcalph]

4 hours ago, Evilroddy said:

If Aeolian culture in the Heortlands is just an Orlanthi culture with a Church and a magical elite laminated on top of it, then what role does the Aeolian Church play in Esvulari society?

IMO the Aeolians are not a church.  A much better way of putting it might be, instead of having worshippers of Lhankor Mhy advising everybody else, the Aeolians have wizards who believe in the Invisible God, view other gods as emanations thereoff etc. etc.  Most people are ordinary Orlanthi with rune magics and spirits whereas a significant view among the rulers would have more spell knowledge than say their Sartarite counterparts.

Socially the Aeolians would organize themselves alongside the God Learner system of government (which Belintar stole from them).  Instead of the clan ring, they have a clan noble who is advised by officials from among the following fields (Governing, Army, Navy, Religion, Trade, Sorcery and Treasure).  Some of these officials would be appointed by the clan noble, others would be appointed by whomever the clan noble serves and so on.  Officials supposedly work collegially but under a weak clan noble, they could work independently.  And sometimes some officials may just merely be collecting taxes for a particular function and sending it elsewhere (ie the Navy Official collects Ship Money from the inland clans).

 

4 hours ago, Evilroddy said:

 Is it just a collection of churches and small colleges serving the upper most strata of Esvulari society or does it have real day-to-day connections with the whole Esvulari population?

I would say about as much connection as the average Lhankoring has.  Every clan would have a wizard who would serve as the Clan Sorceror.  Ideally the Governing Official (in charge of civilian affairs) and the Religion Official (in charge of the worship of the Gods) would both be wizards but many clans would be too poor or backward to attract a wizard for these positions.  Instead the position might fall to some-one with sufficient spell knowledge to discharge the day to day duties of the position (and beg for help from the God-King's bureacracy when things get really bad) or they could be even more backward and hand it to a Lhankoring.

 

4 hours ago, Evilroddy said:

Are Esvulari peasants and craftsmen more likely to have stronger ties to pagan cults and rites but wizards less? Does the Aeolian Church struggle to keep the rank and file in the fold or does it allow its adherents to explore pagan, Brithini and now Rokari beliefs and rites?

Is there an Aeolian body of orthodoxy with authority to keep the faith and is there some sort of an 'inquisition' or cannonical authority which can use coercion to protect the faith? Are the wizard class/caste mostly connected to and part of the Church hierarchy or are there many free mages who while being nominally Aeolian are mostly involved with the temporal world and their own pursuits?

There is no Aeolian Church but rather a group of philosophers who believe in the Gods as emanations of the Invisible God and thereby worthy of worship.  They spend most of their time studying the Gods because they are the most prominent manifestations of the Invisible God.  Many will take governmental duties in order to earn a living.  An esvulari wizard could decide to study something other than the Gods (e.g.. dream magic, alchemy, draconism) without sanction from other wizards but they would be considered to wasting their knowledge in pursuing foolish distractions and not the visible truths.

 

4 hours ago, Evilroddy said:

How does the Aeolian Church reconcile the use of sorcery with the traditional Orlanthi suspicion/out-right hatred of sorcery? Why hasn't Esvulari society been ripped apart or assailed from outside by Meldek feuds and wars? Presumably cynical pagan leaders have tried to whip up sorcery-based bugbears to weaken Aeolian power and to further their own pagan interests? I'm sure the God-king's governors try to tamp this down but it would seem to me that sectarian violence would be an issue despite the governors' best efforts.

The Aeolians are not traditional Orlanthi.  They are brought up with the idea that spell-knowledge is good knowledge.  They may consider it too hard for them to understand but they would not consider an Aeolian wizard to be evil.  Even the priests and devotees among the Aeolians will have normally have no objection to spell-knowledge.

 

4 hours ago, Evilroddy said:

Does the Aeolian Church try to enforce the old caste system of the Brithini (and presumably the Ingareen God Forgotten) or do they have a community without caste distinctions like the Orlanthi? If the latter is true, then who can become an Aeolian adept of magic and who is barred from such pursuits?

Jeff has already answered this earlier in the thread a few months back.

[Joerg]

5 hours ago, Evilroddy said:

If Aeolian culture in the Heortlands is just an Orlanthi culture with a Church and a magical elite laminated on top of it, then what role does the Aeolian Church play in Esvulari society?

I don't think that this is the case with the Esvulari. In Southern Heortland and especially in the Bandori Valley, an Orlanthi all of the population are Aeolians.

True, their culture is quite similar to that of their Orlanthi neighbors. They still are recognizably Malkioni, though. Part of this is their caste system. The question about caste mobility or whether they have men-of-all in addition to professional warriors is up to debate/development, though.

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 Is it just a collection of churches and small colleges serving the upper most strata of Esvulari society or does it have real day-to-day connections with the whole Esvulari population? Are Esvulari peasants and craftsmen more likely to have stronger ties to pagan cults and rites but wizards less?

The wizard caste of the Esvulari is supposed to handle the brunt of magical activities - IMO this includes their services to Orlanthi deities with their bread effigies of sacrifices. Their craftsmen are (IMO again) well versed in the sorcery/alchemy related to their trades.

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Does the Aeolian Church struggle to keep the rank and file in the fold or does it allow its adherents to explore pagan, Brithini and now Rokari beliefs and rites? Is there an Aeolian body of orthodoxy with authority to keep the faith and is there some sort of an 'inquisition' or cannonical authority which can use coercion to protect the faith? Are the wizard class/caste mostly connected to and part of the Church hierarchy or are there many free mages who while being nominally Aeolian are mostly involved with the temporal world and their own pursuits?

I think that there is a body of religious leaders ("bishops") that watch over their orthodoxy. The ones in Mt. Passant and Nochet lead the largest congregations and may be the most prestigious ones and might be their authorities when it comes to their version of the Book, but there may be other authorities when it comes to interaction with their "pagan saints".

There are wizards specialized in serving and teaching their craftsfolk or attached to military organisations, but I think they do so within the umbrella of the church. If you want unaligned sorcerers, look for God Forgotten ones.

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How does the Aeolian Church reconcile the use of sorcery with the traditional Orlanthi suspicion/out-right hatred of sorcery? Why hasn't Esvulari society been ripped apart or assailed from outside by Meldek feuds and wars?

Mostly by geographic separation from the most redneck Orlanthi, or by support of other powers preventing pogroms. IMO they maintain good relations to the ruler of Kethaela - first the Only Old One, later Belintar. It is quite likely that they never ceased to pay the Kitori tribute.

 

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Presumably cynical pagan leaders have tried to whip up sorcery-based bugbears to weaken Aeolian power and to further their own pagan interests? I'm sure the God-king's governors try to tamp this down but it would seem to me that sectarian violence would be an issue despite the governors' best efforts.

So you think there ought to be terrorist Orlanthi outlaws that perform atrocities against the Esvulari? The Esvulari are part and parcel of the Orlanthi weregeld system, which makes overt support of pogroms costly for traditional Heortling communities. Especially where there used to be a Kitori tax that included people taken away from their clans, for purposes left in the dark.

The worst misfits of Heortling persuasion packed their belongings and went to Kerofinela after the arrival of Belintar and his institution of the governor kings (and his chaining of the Spirit of Freedom).

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Does the Aeolian Church try to enforce the old caste system of the Brithini (and presumably the Ingareen God Forgotten) or do they have a community without caste distinctions like the Orlanthi?

The Orlanthi have definite class distinctions - your class (thane, carl, cottar) and associate property is dependent on your household, not you as individual. The Thane class can be reached by merit of becoming a fulltime warrior, a godtalker or an otherwise important ringmember or source of clan income. The additional property for this comes from the clan (chieftain's allotment), and enables the individual to function in their thane role.

Esvulari castes probably recognize three distinct forms of the thane class - the administrators, the magicians, and the full-time warriors. I think that they allow some caste mobiity, by appointment of the respective leaders (of the castes). Women and men share the castes, there is no separate "breeder" Menena caste. Caste is IMO allotted to households rather than individuals, just like Heortling class is. In case of an individual recruited for another caste, their dependents are going to follow this individual, forming a new household or joining another, caste appropriate household.

Marriage is arranged within the castes. A change of caste may result in a divorce if the marriage partner retains the old caste. I suspect, though, that most caste adoptions occur at the time of adulthood initiation when the young Esvulari show their potential. There will likely be a number of descendants of the specialized castes who don't quite excel at the speciality of their caste, but unless they excel at another caste's domain, they are unlikely to change castes, providing a marriage pool.

 

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If the latter is true, then who can become an Aeolian adept of magic and who is barred from such pursuits? Is it a merit-based system or is it expensive and therefore open to only those of substantial economic means or is it associated with class and birth rather than caste per se?

Becoming an adept certainly is merit-based, but you start your wizard career in the wizard caste. As I said above, youths from other castes who show exceptional talent are likely to be adopted into wizard caste households, and start as wizards apprentices. Most children of wizards will start out as such, too - I suppose there is a common lowest amount of wizard knowledge that is taught to all members of the caste. Like literacy, writing, providing personal magic to the master's rituals.

Other wizard caste members are likely to dabble in crafts related to the wizard caste - alchemy, perfuming, ink-making, possibly even certain forms of tanning.

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While I presume Aeolian colleges would only likely teach approved magic (ie. sorcery), can students of magic also acquire spirit/folk magic and if associated with a pagan cult like Lankhor Mhy or Ernalda/Chalana Arroy could they also have access to divine magic and rituals?

The Aeolians don't teach spirit magic. Aeolians may apply as lay members with divine cults for spell teaching, or contact a shaman teaching spirit spells. They have to do so out of their (meagre) private assets, as the household they belong to isn't that likely to go the extra length for some magic that differs not so much from their community-taught sorcery.

I think that they can access divine magic as initiates if they belong to an order corresponding to the deity. Probably at Aeolian shrines, too.

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Finally, what role does the Aeolian Church play in temporal matters? Does it have lands or revenue grants (like Turkish Igta) which give it economic and temporal power or does it depend on tithes, donations and wizardry revenues to maintain the Church?

The "church" probably is stronger than the influence of the temples in Heortling society (when the temple leaders don't double as community leaders) beyond clan borders. That said, a clan's wizards will work for the benefit of the clan most of their time, with only limited resources going to the overstructure, unless they serve on the tribal level (but that's not so different from Heortling tribal thanes, either).

Part of the clan temple revenues (such as tithes and teaching or spell fees/donations) will be passed on to the hierarchy. Most goes to feeding and equipping the wizard caste households working for the temple. Great temples make additional revenues from the pilgrim trade.

Not all wizard caste households necessarily work for the temples. They may take service with lords, guilds or military groups, or manage an appropriate craft business themselves.

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Are powerful urban guilds dominated by Aeolians as opposed to pagans and more recently Rokari and thus are such guilds an unofficial arm of the Aeolian Church, sort of like Muslim brotherhoods were in Egypt or the Abbasid Caliphate?

Aeolians and their often specialized craft sorcery certainly play a role in Heortland and Esrolian cities and their craft guilds. Wizard caste households in the employ of these guilds act as teachers and specialist magicians. Guild heads and their households may very well belong to the administrator or merchant role of the Talar caste.

Guild-owned sorcery spells may be taught to non-Aeolian guild members in cities with mixed guild population (e.g. Durengard, Karse, Jansholm, Wilmskirk). In RQ2 these were the alchemist guilds, and the spells were called potions.

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Are Aeolian land owners beholden to the Church more than other Aeolians and do local Aeolian military elites form a sort of 'Church Militant' to protect and promote the interests of the Aeolian Church?

Land is allotted by the clans, and as a rule not owned by specific households. (There may be exceptions.) Major temples (or orders' monasteries) may act as a clan, though, and can hold some land to support themselves, operated by tenant (cottar class) farmer caste households.

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I hope my many questions are not too much of a burden, but the Heortlands was a major locale for mine and others in my old gaming group's campaigns, so I am very interested how this newer version of the Heortlands unfolds and reveals itself. 

Cheers and good gaming.

Evilroddy.

This is how I adapt the background of my old Heortland campaign to the canon that developed since. Most of this is conjecture from the rather sparse canonical informatin that we have, but I feel I am in a position to expand on that after seeding much of this more than 20 years ago.

[Noita]

It's like a busy Lhankor Mhy temple in here, great stuff

[Jeff]

Evil Roddy - on the previous page I posted some core canonical notes on the Esvularing. If you haven't read them, they make a good starting point.

 

[Evilroddy]

Jeff et. al.:

I saw and read your most informative post. With the exception of the notes on caste structure, the information was appreciated but was also too esoteric for my purpose - which is to better understand how the Aeolian Church and Esvulari society work in a temporal sense. I think (hope?) I understand some of the dimensions of the metaphysical construct you are trying to describe but what I'm after is how it operates in a world dominated by turnip yields and other material concerns. I am interested in the institution of the Aeolian Church rather than its more arcane beliefs and dogma, although those are also very important too. Unless I have player characters attending a religious conclave, what I'm trying to discover is how the a Church appears to the lay people and to outsiders with little or no grounding in Aeolian dogma and epistemology.

I do appreciate the thought which you and others have put into this and your efforts to describe and explain the philosophical and spiritual underpinnings of the Aeolians and the Esvulari. I value that greatly as it informs me as both a GM and as a life-long fan of the marvel that is Glorantha. But I am also interested in the more mundane and crunchy aspects of the institutions of the faith and its resultant society and how that society interacts with the pagan and monotheistic societies around it. That is what I need as a selfish GM to better narrate my campaign.

As to the caste system and endogamy, I have a concern. My position is based on the presumption that the caste system is a pyramid-shaped hierarchy with many at the base and few at the apex. If my presumption is wrong than please ignore my concern which follows. In such a small population how can a very small noble/Talar caste maintain its existence given the vicissitudes of living through hundreds of years of a world as lethal as Glorantha? If such a tiny caste cannot renew its numbers by the uptake of the most promising of lower castes then isn't it likely to face extinction in short order? This would seem to make it difficult to maintain an effective and socially legitimate noble/Talar caste in the face of upheavals, war, disease and other challenges. If the reproductive pool is too small, the ability to recover from disasters and to maintain a functional and effective noble caste is less certain it would seem. Have the Esvulari just been very fortunate to have escaped such existential challenges or are there other factors at play here?

Once again thank you to all who have made this a most interesting discussion and a big thanks to Jeff et. al. for piloting this latest iteration of Glorantha which intrigues and informs us all.

Cheers and good gaming.

Evilroddy.

PS. Thanks too to the cerebral cortex and amygdalae of Greg Stafford - the cosmic egg of our shared passion!

Edited July 7, 2016 by Evilroddy

[Joerg]

I think that the problem of how to maintain the "thane class" castes mainly can get addressed by giving them less prestigious but still caste relevant roles to fulfill. Nobody seems to worry about the most attrition-prone caste, the warriors - probably because mobility into this caste is seen as the least disruptive to social order?

With wizards given non-spell-casting but still magic-related tasks e.g. in crafts, we now get to examine how the administrator Talar caste can fill required roles by expanding their domain.

In western society, the Talars get to be merchants and resource managers in addition to being decision-makers on the ruler level. Translated to Heortling functions, this may include the entire range of Issaries activities/subcults, and quite a bit of the Ernalda/Asrelia functions, too, in addition to the sovereignty functions traditionally held by Orlanth and Ernalda. Assuming a need for literacy for these functions, the position of scribe and record keeper could be distributed between the Zzabur and the Talar caste.

If we assume that six out of seven (the Orlanthi all) of the Aeolian households (or, in the definition used in Coming Storm, hearths?) belong to the Dronar caste (still covering various functions besides the four Providers - urban craftsfolk and caravan handlers, builders and miners), then the other three castes have about 5% of the population each to maintain their presence. We will have to allow for some caste mobility at least around initiation for fresh blood to enter the smaller castes, while also allowing for exchange between initiands coming from these families.

One might ask whether the Esvulari as a Malkioni culture with roots in Brithini caste structure have as much of a marriage culture as do the Heortlings. From what I have gleaned from discussions with Jeff, Malkioni don't appear to value marital fidelity as much as they insist on keeping sex inside the caste. This isn't exactly at odds with the Aeolians adopting Orlanthi mores - if the non-Dronar castes fulfill a lot of ritual roles, sexual intercourse can be part of these rituals, and what happens on the Other Side (or in rituals) stays on the Other Side even in Orlanthi marriages.

On the other hand, I tried to assign caste not to an individual, but to the individual's hearth or household. Even if we substract the children, this may result in three to five adults with no specific function in their caste for every active member in that caste, though probably less as young adults perform at least basic functions of that caste. But we will still have a lot of warriors wives (or husbands, in case of women warriors) as part of the Horal caste who quite likely don't either stand guard or act in other military functions, and they won't all be combat healers, either. Family tasks will take up quite a bit of their daily lives, even if standard housekeeping chores like cooking or laundry are given to cottar dronar retainers.

On the other hand, will Malkioni give jobs about the maintenance or production of caste-specific items over to the dronar caste, or will there be special jobs for rather low-ranking members of the Talar, Zzabur and Horal castes for handling items that only their caste may touch? In that case, we would find e.g. armorers and weapon-smiths as Horal caste, and seamstresses and possibly even weavers and spinners in each of the castes dedicated to produce the caste-specific clothing?

There was a bit of concept art for the Guide about the Malkioni that showed a frieze with various caste-typical roles that seems to have been dropped from the Guide:

http://www.glorantha.com/docs/seshnela-art-direction/

The concubines appear to fulfill some menial tasks for the king and the ranking noblewoman, too. The discussion about this piece contains some of the hints that made me re-evaluate Malkioni marriages, and which may be one of the decisive differences between Aeolians and Heortlings. Esrolian marriages may fall somewhere in between, too.

 

 

[jajagappa]

11 hours ago, Iskallor said:

It's like a busy Lhankor Mhy temple in here, great stuff

The Glorantha Digest lives!!!!  The Hero Wars are truly at hand.  

[metcalph]

10 hours ago, Evilroddy said:

As to the caste system and endogamy, I have a concern. My position is based on the presumption that the caste system is a pyramid-shaped hierarchy with many at the base and few at the apex. If my presumption is wrong than please ignore my concern which follows. In such a small population how can a very small noble/Talar caste maintain its existence given the vicissitudes of living through hundreds of years of a world as lethal as Glorantha?

There are 75,000 or Esvulari in the South Province of Heortland and 15,000 elsewhere in Heortland.  There are Esvulari elsewhere in the ports of Kethaela but no numbers given for them (History of the Heortling Peoples p86).  There's several ways in which we could resolve the problems of endogamy.

1)  Looking at real world example, the unfortunate Yazidis.  Their population is of similar size to the Esvulari and they practice endogamy.  Furthermore the Yazidis have three endogamous castes; the Sheikhs, the Pir (Elders) and the Murids (Commoners).  So the set-up is possible.

2)  The Esvulari may have practised Caste Endogamy as a reaction to the abuses of the God Learners.  That whittles the lengthy time period from 1600 years to 500 years.  

3)  I feel that the smaller castes number between 5-10% of the population each.  Most people in the Noble and Priestly caste are not actually nobles or priests but people eligible to serve as nobles or priests.  Apart from practicing their caste taboos, most of them live lives only barely distinguishable from the commoners.

[metcalph]

8 hours ago, Joerg said:

I think that the problem of how to maintain the "thane class" castes mainly can get addressed by giving them less prestigious but still caste relevant roles to fulfill. Nobody seems to worry about the most attrition-prone caste, the warriors - probably because mobility into this caste is seen as the least disruptive to social order?

The Esvulari do not have a warrior caste according to Jeff.

[Jeff]

The Esvulari have three castes (really two strict castes, and then everyone else). There are the nobles (judges) who must belong to a specific lineage and there are the priests (wizards) who also must belong to a restricted lineage. Think of them like the Yazidis or the Levites during the Second Temple. These families marry within themselves (endogamy) - so a noble always marries the daughter of another noble, and a priest always marries the daughter of another priest. The Aeolian sect disapproves of marrying outsiders, so the commoners are endogamous by elimination.

The priests are trained in sorcery and the rituals of worshiping the Invisible God and his emanations. Ordinary folk go through their adulthood initiation rights, favor one emanation or another, and might even have (non-"priestly") god-talkers. But the community ceremonies are all performed by wizard-priests. There is no "Church" in the sense of a separate corporate community - it is probably easier to think of the Esvularings as an ethno-religious community like the Druze or Yazidi. 

The community at large chooses which eligible noble rules them. In places like Nochet, where there are large Esvularing communities, it is common for the community to send to Mount Passat requesting a noble or priest.