New RQ skills

[jux]

I'm not sure if I am doing any good by raising question about the new RQ edition. But the backbone of the system and how character is defined is the skill list.

I understand how the old CoC had too many skills and I am very surprised of the skill list in the old RQ2 (visible here). So the trend has been on reducing the number of skills, but I'm not sure that RQ6 or OQ has it right either (boating, ride, singing?).

Now, as you all know there is a new Kickstarter for Conan game currently running and it left me quite cold (because I have RQ to play that stuff), but then I saw the Conan skill list:

AGILITY
- Acrobatics
- Melee
- Stealth
AWARENESS
- Insight
- Observation
- Survival
- Thievery
BRAWN
- Athletics
- Resistance
COORDINATION
- Parry
- Ranged Weapons
- Sailing
INTELLIGENCE
- Alchemy
- Craft
- Healing
- Lore
- Linguistics
- Siegecraft
PERSONALITY
- Animal Handling
- Command
- Counsel
- Persuade
- Society
WILLPOWER
- Discipline
- Sorcery

Wow! To me this is much more descriptive. There are stats for personality! This is something I am always looking forward from a RPG.

Anyway, I guess I'm just impatient for the next RQ dev notes.

Edited February 20, 2016 by jux

[threedeesix]

Actually RQ6 has plenty of personalty skills; Influence, Deceit, Acting, Courtesy, Seduction, etc. And that's just off the top of my head. Plus, Classic Fantasy is adding Animal Handling. So really most of the personalty skills you note are covered there as well.

[jux]

Yeah, you are actually right. Animal handling and Command skills that actually stood out to me. But I don't even know how Conan game uses these skills.

My point is that for traditional games, personality properties are still so under-developed. It still too much "I hit it with my axe" focused. For example I'd like to see an Empathy attrubute/skill. I want to see more bipolar characters, that are strong and skilled in combat, but are mentally so week that freeze up in real fight. I want to see a character having a nervous breakdown - mental damage.

[Zit]

Actually, the "Personality" skill category looks like the "Communication" skill category in RQ and BRP.

[jux]

Yeah, for traditional games, personality is mainly used for communication or social encounters. I'd be interested in something more interconnected. Like learning magic effects your corruption which should be big deal, not some number for role-playing that can be easily ignored. The weaker one's empathy, the more easily corrupted this person is.

BRP basically has that - it's POW. I wish it was more important. It seems only magic users need that and for the rest it is a dump-stat. It should reflect how frightened a character can become, etc.

[TrippyHippy]

I like having Skills divided into categories, and it saves time in character generation to have each category sharing the same base score calculation. Keeping the number of skills reasonably low is also quite important in that respect and I personally, prefer having the Parry skill integrated into whole Combat Styles a la RQ6. 

[K Peterson]

17 hours ago, jux said:

I understand how the old CoC had too many skills and I am very surprised of the skill list in the old RQ2 (visible here).

That skill list is surprising because that character sheet seems to be an odd amalgamation of RQ2 corebook skills and skills taken from a variety of RQ2 supplements (or maybe other sources?). Compare it to this RQ2 character sheet, which is more representative. The sheet you reference drops off some standard RQ2 skills (like Map Making) and introduces what I'd consider to be 'fringe' skills (Masonry, Cattle Food(?), Peaceful Cut(?))

[threedeesix]

4 hours ago, jux said:

BRP basically has that - it's POW. I wish it was more important. It seems only magic users need that and for the rest it is a dump-stat. 

Well, its a dump stat until the character needs to resist a spell that magic-user has just cast on him. At that point I'm sure he'll wish he put a few more points into POW. 

Edited February 20, 2016 by threedeesix

[nDervish]

You can get a free quickstart version of the Conan rules from DriveThru if you want more details of how it all works, but the actual meaning of how that list is structured is that you have a "Personality" attribute (more-or-less equivalent to Charisma in various other games, including some RQ/BRP flavors) which is used as the baseline skill value for Animal Handling, Command, etc. skills.  So I suspect it's not really what you thought.

[pachristian]

I'm always of mixed opinion on whether a skill list should be short, and each skill consolidates several others (for example Perception instead of Listen, Search, and Spot Hidden), or whether the greater precision of a long skill list is preferable. One thing I always try to remember is that the moment you put a skill in a game, you define a whole lot of people as not having that skill. So the moment I put the skill Fast Talk in a game anybody who does not spend improvement points or training (or whatever you use) on Fast Talk cannot strive to confuse and bamboozle people with words. In other words, by defining the skill, I either force players to spend effort on it, or deny them the chance to ever do it.

Your mention of POW as a dump stat in BRP is interesting. I recently did some studies on RQ6 (different game, yes, I know). How many skills does each characteristic affect? The numbers were surprising:

STR       7 skills, 1 repeat

CON     10 skills, 2 repeat

SIZ         1 skill

DEX     18 skills, 2 repeat

INT      37 skills, 9 repeat

POW    16 skills, 2 repeat

CHA     23 skills, 2 repeat

"Repeat" in this context means skills that you are likely to take more than one of. For example Lore Skills or Languages.

Obviously, your mileage will vary. Different characters will emphasize different skills.

I used these numbers (plus some additional math for other, related game effects) to establish the training cost of characteristics.

[Atgxtg]

10 hours ago, jux said:

BRP basically has that - it's POW. I wish it was more important. It seems only magic users need that and for the rest it is a dump-stat. It should reflect how frightened a character can become, etc.

POW as a dump stat??!!!

In any setting with any sort of magical, psionic or other powers, the POW stat is vital. Not only is it used to fuel those abilities, but it is also used to defend against hostile effects. In RQ, especially Gloranthan RQ, a low POW character is vulnerable to disease spirits and spellcasters. And Glorantha is a setting where practically everybody a character might fight can cast a spell or three. 

[Mugen]

Not counting CoC, in which POW determines SAN... 

CHA/APP is a dump stat, because it will often be paired with INT or POW to determine base skill values.

Not really a dump stat, but I also value STR far less than SIZ or CON. 

[jux]

23 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

POW as a dump stat??!!!

In any setting with any sort of magical, psionic or other powers, the POW stat is vital. Not only is it used to fuel those abilities, but it is also used to defend against hostile effects. In RQ, especially Gloranthan RQ, a low POW character is vulnerable to disease spirits and spellcasters. And Glorantha is a setting where practically everybody a character might fight can cast a spell or three. 

Dump stat was too harsh and poorly chosen word for what I meant. But I wish POW would be important attribute in a zero-magic setting, because one's mental power matters very much also in mundane world.

For example I like how in Savage Worlds there is "spirit" attribute - it has basically the same meaning as POW in BRP. But Spirit is very crucial stat in combat. In SW when you receive a hit, you must mentally overcome the inner instability and pass a Spirit attribute check, otherwise you are "shaken", meaning you are too afraid to a attack in return. You can run for cover though.

While I'm not fan of the "shaken" rule in SW, I very much like how physical strength and mental strength must be in balance, for that character to function efficiently. 

[jux]

5 hours ago, Mugen said:

Not counting CoC, in which POW determines SAN... 

Yes! I wish RQ had something similar to SAN for example. Something simpler and more elegant.

[fmitchell]

2 hours ago, jux said:

Yes! I wish RQ had something similar to SAN for example. Something simpler and more elegant.

You could always borrow the Renaissance rules for Sanity.  In brief:

• Each character has a number of Sanity points equal to his/her POW.
• Upon seeing something horrifying, a character must succeed in a test against the Persistence skill (Will in RQ6).
• If a character fails the test, he/she takes "Sanity Damage", as listed for each creature or circumstance (typically 1D4 or 1D6, more for extreme events like torture, watching the death a loved one, or witnessing an Elder God).
• When Sanity goes negative, the character must make Persistence/Will/etc. after each loss or go Completely Insane, i.e. is out of the game.
• If a character loses more than half starting Sanity all at once, the character gains a Temporary Major Insanity; if this causes Sanity to go negative this insanity is Permanent.  If a character takes twice starting Sanity in damage all at once the character automatically goes Completely Insane.
• First Aid or long-term healing can restore Sanity Points.

What I like about this is 1) there's no percentile Sanity track, 2) the Sanity death spiral is gone, 3) Sanity Damage works analogously to physical damage, and 4) since it uses existing skills characters automatically improve their resistance to shock when they increase their willpower.

Edited February 21, 2016 by fmitchell

[Atgxtg]

4 hours ago, jux said:

Dump stat was too harsh and poorly chosen word for what I meant. But I wish POW would be important attribute in a zero-magic setting, because one's mental power matters very much also in mundane world.

For example I like how in Savage Worlds there is "spirit" attribute - it has basically the same meaning as POW in BRP. But Spirit is very crucial stat in combat. In SW when you receive a hit, you must mentally overcome the inner instability and pass a Spirit attribute check, otherwise you are "shaken", meaning you are too afraid to a attack in return. You can run for cover though.

While I'm not fan of the "shaken" rule in SW, I very much like how physical strength and mental strength must be in balance, for that character to function efficiently. 

Okay, I see you point now.

What you could use, is the Pain Resistance rule from the Bond RPG. In that game when a character got hit, he had to make a Pain Resistance roll to shrug off the pain and act. otherwise the pain was too great and the character was incapacitated for the rest of the round. The Pain Resistance roll was a multiple of the character's WIL attribute. In RQ/BRP the POW attribute encompasses WILlpower, and you could use POWx5% (willpower roll?) for the base. Then make the roll easy or hard depending on the amount of damage. A light wound (say less that 1/4 HP) would be easy, and a major wound (1/2 HP or more) would be difficult. 

That would make POW very important in a zero-magic setting. 

 

[TRose]

One of the things I always loved about the BRP system is if you feel that you should add a new skill, it simple to do.  Like adding a new knowledge skill(wife birthday) :=)

[Baulderstone]

One thing to keep in mind when making custom skill lists or adding skills is whether your players will be filling particular set roles. If that is the case, be careful about not having too heavy an imbalance in the number of skills needed to fulfill each role. The character with a role requiring a wide range of skills has to spread their points a lot further when building a new character. Not that this kind of role structure is necessary in BRP, but it does happen in some games. 

It's also a bigger thing to consider if you are using Experience Rolls instead of Tick Boxes. If one character build mainly relies on four skill, while another relies on eight skills, the first player is going to have an easier time covering their main skills with Experience Rolls. 

[Joerg]

I have come to a stance where I think that skills often become limiters to what a character can do rather than enablers. With every area of activities you specify a skill for you declare that all characters lacking this skill will be condemned to inactivity or at least gross incompetence.

Maybe it is my experience playing HeroQuest, but I wonder whether one should keep the amount of skills at the level of RQ skill categories and allow specialisations within these fields.

 

[Mankcam]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

I have come to a stance where I think that skills often become limiters to what a character can do rather than enablers. With every area of activities you specify a skill for you declare that all characters lacking this skill will be condemned to inactivity or at least gross incompetence.

Maybe it is my experience playing HeroQuest, but I wonder whether one should keep the amount of skills at the level of RQ skill categories and allow specialisations within these fields.

 

I totally agree, this would give the game a much cleaner, simpler flavour, yet allow for skill specialisation of notable skills. And hopefully also give a larger emphasis on Characteristics.

This would definitely feel like a more modern game, I would really hope something like this could be considered. Gone are the days of huge fiddlly skill lists I reckon.

[Rhialto the Marvellous]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

I have come to a stance where I think that skills often become limiters to what a character can do rather than enablers. With every area of activities you specify a skill for you declare that all characters lacking this skill will be condemned to inactivity or at least gross incompetence.

Maybe it is my experience playing HeroQuest, but I wonder whether one should keep the amount of skills at the level of RQ skill categories and allow specialisations within these fields.

 

This is pretty much what Bare Bones Fantasy does: broad skill categories with cascading specialities where desired.

[TRose]

7 hours ago, Rhialto the Marvellous said:

This is pretty much what Bare Bones Fantasy does: broad skill categories with cascading specialities where desired.

 That the way I run it. a few broad categories and then if you feel a need to specialize you can.

  For example "survival" allows you to know which plants you can eat at a basic level. But if you have herbalcraft you know which ones have healing properties too.

[TRose]

 One thing I noticed about switching from ticks  to skill rolls was it effect on Sorcerers since I use the RQ3/ Magic book magic system. Sorcerers are  need a huge amount of skill points to be effective( Or dominate the game as some say) . Skill rolls slow sorcerers down big time. They might get to God status some time, but its now a long slow road.

[jux]

22 hours ago, fmitchell said:

You could always borrow the Renaissance rules for Sanity.  

Have that. Am using it in my OQ game

[jux]

9 hours ago, Mankcam said:

I totally agree, this would give the game a much cleaner, simpler flavour, yet allow for skill specialisation of notable skills. And hopefully also give a larger emphasis on Characteristics.

This would definitely feel like a more modern game, I would really hope something like this could be considered. Gone are the days of huge fiddlly skill lists I reckon.

Actually there are modern games which don't have skills at all! Shadow of the Demon Lord and Symbaroum for example. It gives much more freedom actually.

But we are talking about BRP and RQ, so yeah. Skills it is.