Is defense too strong in 1vs1 combat?

[TFM]

Hello everyone!

Until now, I had limited exposure to BRP, playing Call of Cthulhu without paying that much attention to detailed rules, or playing Pendragon, with its significantly different ruleset. However, few weeks ago I decided to run game set in the world of the Witcher, and realized, that I need some generic system, as we (me and my players) are pretty fed up with Savage Worlds (don't get me wrong its nice system, but it isn't perfect for every type of game, and we already use it quite often). BRP looked like a good choice, so I grabbed BGB, tinkered with rules enough to make them fit to campaign and our personal play style, and basically we are ready to run. I was about to send out character generation details, when I realized, that I have doubts related to defense mechanics.

Basically, I can either allow weapon skills to go up to 90%, and that means I am getting almost constant parries right away (with one or two lucky exp rolls or +5% masterful weapon) or keep them down to 75% and postpone problem for 5 or so sessions. Either way, at some point I will run into situation, where less numerous attacks will all be parried, and more numerous attacks will simply destroy opponent (due to -30% penalty to every subsequent defense). And that means, fights with main enemies won't be very exciting either way.

Yes, I know I can use monsters, with attacks that can't be parried and thick armor. I can split attack/parry (but thats something I definitely don't want to do). I can make my players face magic-users. Of course I can. But I enjoy old traditional swordplay and something tells me, that fights with human enemies will become boring and dragging very quickly.

TL;DR Is combat playable with skills over 100 and without using monsters/magic/superior numbers to diminish high parry ratings?

Will be most grateful of any input. Planning to run first session on this or next Friday, and still undecided if I should allow high skills, or somehow try to keep them down.

 

TFM

[tooley1chris]

Higher defense skills also comes with higher offense skills. Multiple attacks from higher skill scores, or multiple attackers, can quickly become a defense problem as you split points between multiple parries. I like the drawn out sword play between skilled warriors and think it's pretty realistic. I do, However, also use fatigue rules which also begin to dwindle skills after a time. 

Make your players enemies fight smart, as they should. Their lives are on the line as well, after all. Have them gang up on individuals. Try to flank when they can. There are a lot of ways to make defense more problematic. If you watch Game of Thrones you'll notice fighters rarely square off for one on one combat. There is strength in numbers. Not honorable, maybe, but the last one standing is what counts in the end.

 

Edited February 28, 2016 by tooley1chris

[Sean_RDP]

I have not read my BGB in a while, but missile fire cannot be parried, yes? So that is one way to change things up. Ancient soldiers often threw a javelin or ax before charging in with swords. Of course there are bowmen and slingers as well. Additionally, is every opponent equal to the heroes? Or were you referring mostly to the characters being unhitable except when they are mobbed? Multiple opponents, even low level ones, would seem one solution. As for equal opponents, don't you want those battles to feel epic? They may go on for a while as each side parries blow after blow.  One thing that helps are weapon breaking and damage rules. So if weapons are damaged on parrying, that could help.

So there are solutions to issue. I think it depends on what turns your players on. I love a good defensive fight because to me it makes it more skilled and exciting. Others love offense. 

[Atgxtg]

Missiles can be parried with shields.

[Atgxtg]

1 hour ago, TFM said:

Will be most grateful of any input. Planning to run first session on this or next Friday, and still undecided if I should allow high skills, or somehow try to keep them down.

A couple of things.

First off, don't overlook specials and criticals. Then become more common at higher skill levels and will help in getting past defense.

Secondly, parrying weapons can take damage which can lead to a character with a high skill not having a weapon left to parry with. 

 

[K Peterson]

In the BGB, Missile fire can only be parried with a shield, and the chance is based on the size of the shield. Thrown weapons can be parried with a shield, and with a hand weapon (though that requires a Special Success).

Regarding the OP: Well, Crits and Special Successes will still be a threat from opponents, so near-auto-parrying will not always be the case.

[RosenMcStern]

Let's do some maths. Assume a 90% swordsman is fighting another 90% swordsman.

The chance of the defender not parrying is 10%. If you combine it with the 10% chance of the attacker not hitting on the unparried attack, there is a 9% chance per attack that a blow goes through because of a failed parry.

A blow can also connect because of a special attack vs. a non-special-parry. The chances of a special attack are 18%, combined with a 18% chance that the defender parries with a special they reduce to 15% (14.76% rounded mathematically).

The combined chance of neither of these events happening - that is, of the blow not connecting - are the product of the opposite chances, that is 91% x 85%. Roughly 77%. In other words, for each attack there is a 77% chance that nothing happens and a 23% chance that the attacker connects.

There are two attacks in a round. The combined chance that both fail is 77% x 77%. This is 59%. This means that there is a 59% chance per round that nothing happens. It is already sounding like the problem of defense is not so big as it initially seemed, isn't it? But things get worse - sorry, better for the purpose of MGF - as the number of rounds increases and we consider the combined chance of still nothing happening after that number of rounds.

Chance of no hits after 1 round: 59%

Chance of no hits after 2 rounds: 35%

Chance of no hits after 3 rounds: 20%

Chance of no hits after 4 rounds: 12%

As you can see, the chances move from "probably no one gets hurt" to "probably someone gets hurt" aftre two rounds. The chances of the duel being still a draw become low or neglectable after 3 or 4 rounds. Note that the above numbers stem from the BGB rules: with RQ2/3, the "parry blocks AP damage even if the attacker criticals" rule made the chances of passing through much lower, so the numbers would have been 91%/82%/75%/69%.

Outcome: the defense problem simply does not exist in the BGB, unless you are looking for a combat model in which you have the guarantee that something happens every round. It is simply a perceived problem, due to remembering that the issue did exist in previous incarnations of d100, and/or being used to other system that use a differente mathematic model.

[TFM]

Thanks everyone for answers. As I said before, I am fully aware I can workaround this perceived problem with clever tactics and such. I am just wondering in advance if I will have to. Extra special thanks to RosenMcStern for maths, but, what you described looks like my ideal situation - skills in the 75-95 range. With two characters at 110% skill it looks much worse - and duel between combatants having respectively 95% and 105% skill will in nearly all cases end badly for swordsman with under 100% skill.

However,  what you said makes me a little less worried about combat system. But just for to answer my doubts - is game where most skilled fighters are over 100% as playable as under-100% game? In a word, should I let players start around 100, or strive to keep them away from getting there?

[Joerg]

4 minutes ago, TFM said:

However,  what you said makes me a little less worried about combat system. But just for to answer my doubts - is game where most skilled fighters are over 100% as playable as under-100% game? In a word, should I let players start around 100, or strive to keep them away from getting there?

Taking Paolo's math onward - a duel between two 120% opponents plays much like a duel between two 30% opponents. Disregarding the off chance that a non-special hit causes damage, only special successes vs. non-special parries connect. The difference towards the beginners' duel is that when the masters connect, they do so spectacularly.

[RosenMcStern]

15 minutes ago, TFM said:

Thanks everyone for answers. As I said before, I am fully aware I can workaround this perceived problem with clever tactics and such. I am just wondering in advance if I will have to. Extra special thanks to RosenMcStern for maths, but, what you described looks like my ideal situation - skills in the 75-95 range. With two characters at 110% skill it looks much worse - and duel between combatants having respectively 95% and 105% skill will in nearly all cases end badly for swordsman with under 100% skill.

However,  what you said makes me a little less worried about combat system. But just for to answer my doubts - is game where most skilled fighters are over 100% as playable as under-100% game? In a word, should I let players start around 100, or strive to keep them away from getting there?

Not at all. Let's redo the maths:

105 vs. 95 ->

* chance of attack connecting vs. failed parry 5% (actually 4.75%)

* chance of special vs. non-special: 21% vs. the reverse of 19%, that is 21% vs. 81% -> 17%

* chance that neither happens: 95% x 83% : 78%

95 vs. 105 ->

* chance of attack connecting vs. failed parry 5% (actually 4.75%)

* chance of special vs. non-special: 19% vs. the reverse of 21%, that is 19% vs. 79% -> 15%

* chance that neither happens: 95% x 85% : 80%

Total chance per round that neither connects: 78% * 80% -> 62%

Total chance of "nothing happens" after 1/2/3/4 rounds: 62%/38%/24%/15%

Not that bad, either. And the 95% swordsman CAN win, he'll prevail 2 times out of 5.

Now the GOOD part: with two 120% opponents, the chances of nothing happening in one round are back to 60% (the enhanced chance of specials offsets the reduced chance of missed parries), so the chances are similar to those in the first example.

So the bottom line is: unlike RQ3, going above 100% does NOT cause standoffs. You can have your players go above 100%, most battles will see a blow landing withing two or three rounds. If you are worried about combat dragging, look at armour values rather than skill. If it takes 5-6 hits to take someone down, there you have a problem.

[TFM]

My math seems to fail me. You wrote:

95 vs. 105 ->

*chance of attack connecting vs. failed parry 5% (actually 4,75%)

But at 105, the only failed parry is a 1% fumble. So, 5 times of 100 attack won't connect because of skill being too low, and 99% attacks rolled under skill level will fail because of opponent parry. Looks to me, that only less than 1% of attacks will connect if we won't take specials/etc into account. Please correct me if I am wrong on that.

(And also, talking about under-100 guy not standing a chance, I was taking into account situation, where more skilled swordsman splits skill into 2 attacks, while still parrying at 105%).

[RosenMcStern]

96-00 is always a miss, even beyon 100% skill.

You cannot split attacks against the same opponent.

[TFM]

Hah! That changes ALOT.

Thanks for explanation.

I will be using major wound mechanics and randomized armor, so I hope fights won't be dragging out too much.

Now, only thing left is balancing magic-users and I making final pass on skills allowed in the setting.

[soltakss]

15 hours ago, RosenMcStern said:

You cannot split attacks against the same opponent.

This is one of the things that I allow in my games. You get Water Margin-style combat where a master can cut an opponent open with a flurry of blows.

 

[tooley1chris]

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

This is one of the things that I allow in my games. You get Water Margin-style combat where a master can cut an opponent open with a flurry of blows.

 

I also allow it as long as they beat the weapons STR/DEX requirements by 4 points or more or using unarmed attacks. 

Edited February 29, 2016 by tooley1chris

[Mugen]

A solution is to use a Skill opposition rule similar to Pendragon or RQ6.

If both opponent have the same level of success, the one with the highest roll wins the opposition.

In combat, if the attacker beats the defender but both had the same success level, damage will be lowered by an amount depending on the parrying weapon.

[Atgxtg]

Magic and other enhancements also play a big part. In RQ the battle and rune magic would accelerate things.

Oh, and the "bog down" in RQ3 ususally wan't all that bad, since the weapons would get damaged. Seeing your weapon's APs getting whittled down does a lot to keep the fight interesting, even if nobody is getting hurt. In fact, at high skill levels,  it's a viable tactics to try and trash an opponent's weapon if he keeps parrying. 

 

Oh, and since you are inexperienced with BRP, one thing to remember is that combat is much more dangerous than in most level-based RPPGs, such as D&D. Where in D&D a character can loose most of his hit points and still be up and in good shape, in BRP said character has probably had a hit location disabled, is unconscious, or at least, is in real danger of dying on the next decent hit. And, in most cases, dead characters stay dead. No dragging the bodies back to town for a raise dead.  

 

[KPhan2121]

I talked about this on a previous thread. BRP works well enough as it is written, but you can get into the attack-parry/dodge ping-pong situation. What I've done is allowed for players to take a penalty in their attack and the opponent take's an equivalent penalty to their defense. I usually frame it as feinting, clever footwork, binding weapons together, etc. 

For example, PC A has a sword skill of 95 and NPC B has a parry skill of 85. PC A gets to make an attack against NPC B. He knows that NPC B has a good defense so he takes a -30 penalty to his attack while the NPC gets a -30 penalty to his defense on top of other penalties. So PC A has a sword skill of 65 and NPC B has a parry skill of 55. It helps make the combat go a lot faster. 

 

[Joerg]

4 hours ago, KPhan2121 said:

I talked about this on a previous thread. BRP works well enough as it is written, but you can get into the attack-parry/dodge ping-pong situation. What I've done is allowed for players to take a penalty in their attack and the opponent take's an equivalent penalty to their defense. I usually frame it as feinting, clever footwork, binding weapons together, etc. 

For example, PC A has a sword skill of 95 and NPC B has a parry skill of 85. PC A gets to make an attack against NPC B. He knows that NPC B has a good defense so he takes a -30 penalty to his attack while the NPC gets a -30 penalty to his defense on top of other penalties. So PC A has a sword skill of 65 and NPC B has a parry skill of 55. It helps make the combat go a lot faster.

Ok. In your example, did any player ever ask "can I take a -80 penalty?" in order to avoid that the opposition ever hits except when rolling unavoidably lucky?

 

[KPhan2121]

10 hours ago, Joerg said:

Ok. In your example, did any player ever ask "can I take a -80 penalty?" in order to avoid that the opposition ever hits except when rolling unavoidably lucky?

 

Yes to the -80 penalty, but in that time they were at 150ish skill ratings and trying to cleave through a group of mooks without letting them have a chance to parry/dodge. I'm not sure what you're asking on the 2nd part of the question. Are you asking if they did it on a defense roll in order to negate an opponent's ability to even hit them? Then no. You can only take the penalty if you are attacking. You cannot impose a penalty when you are defending, since its a reaction.

Edit. There's also this rule someone else on the forums made for riposte if you want another fast way to deal with high-skill combat.

 

Edited March 1, 2016 by KPhan2121
Linking an alternative rule.

[tooley1chris]

Riposte rocks !

Especially fun for swashbuckling types.

Edit: but I only allow on a special success parry or better. Means you got lucky and found a hole in enemies defense 

Edited March 1, 2016 by tooley1chris

[RosenMcStern]

19 hours ago, KPhan2121 said:

I talked about this on a previous thread. BRP works well enough as it is written, but you can get into the attack-parry/dodge ping-pong situation. What I've done is allowed for players to take a penalty in their attack and the opponent take's an equivalent penalty to their defense. I usually frame it as feinting, clever footwork, binding weapons together, etc. 

For example, PC A has a sword skill of 95 and NPC B has a parry skill of 85. PC A gets to make an attack against NPC B. He knows that NPC B has a good defense so he takes a -30 penalty to his attack while the NPC gets a -30 penalty to his defense on top of other penalties. So PC A has a sword skill of 65 and NPC B has a parry skill of 55. It helps make the combat go a lot faster. 

 

65 vs. 55:

Chance of unparried vs. parried 29% (45% chance of unparried, but exploited only 65% of the time)

Chance of special vs. non-special 12%

Chance of neither happening: 62%

55 vs. 65

Chance of unparried vs. parried 30% (55% chance of unparried, but exploited only 55% of the time)

Chance of special vs. non-special 10%

Chance of neither happening: 63%

Chance of neither of the above happening after one round: 39% (instead of 59% in my first example).

You may call a 20% additional chance that something happens after the first round a lot faster. I do not. All you do is make combat, on average, one round shorter (in my first example the chance of "still nothing happening" dropped to 35% after the second round). This is hardly a deal breaker.

[Sean_RDP]

1 hour ago, tooley1chris said:

Riposte rocks !

Especially fun for swashbuckling types.

Edit: but I only allow on a special success parry or better. Means you got lucky and found a hole in enemies defense 

In Skaerune', different parries get different critical effects (criticals only). Riposte is for the one handed weapon, nothing in the off hand. 

[Chris]

In RQ6  you have to roll for fatigue as you fight so even if you have a high combat you better have a good endurance as well 

Also with Combat Maneuvers you can trip and handicap your opponent, Also with the use of Action Points one or both can run out of attacks, Parries.

It is a great combat system

Try it