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New RQ / Art Direction


Kränted Powers

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Hi! I haven't seen any spreads yet, but I hope we'll have enough budget for professional lay-out artist and typographer!

What I wish not to see is fan-based amateur art. Because mr. Frazetta seems not the be available anymore, here are my suggestions for b & w artists:

Didier Cassegrain, amazing Tao Bang comic series:
https://www.google.fi/search?q=didier+cassegrain+tao+bang&espv=2&biw=1201&bih=783&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiLrqnqqLnLAhXJiRoKHWj0AjYQ_AUIBigB


or for more realistic approach


Huppen Hermann, The Towers of Bois-Maury series:
https://www.google.fi/search?q=hermann+The+Towers+of+Bois-Maury&client=safari&rls=en&biw=1246&bih=652&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj6g5m8qLnLAhUKOxoKHRYECVsQ_AUIBygC

…any other suggestions?

 

Great art for a great game!

 

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Very good suggestion! I think he would be great as a cover artist. Also …Walter Velez, I think he did a great job with Thieves' World covers, Reminded me of the Lankhmar series.

About typography; does anyone remember swedish magazine Grey Ooze (by Jussi Hyönen)? The magazine had classical and stylish typography. I think the designers of RQ7 should take a quick look at the magazine before starting designing the lay-out.

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All these artists are excellent choices !!! Artists of such skill and detail would be great for the next RuneQuest.

European graphic novel art is truly a pinnacle for realistic fantasy settings, usually with a high level of detail and grittiness at times. Reminds me of the cutting edge mature artwork I would hunt the shelves for after acquiring magazines like Epic and Heavy Metal / Metal Hurlant

This is certainly the kind of art many of us would want to see in a publication like RuneQuest.

They could blow the budget, but great art is a must for any product. Let's never see a return to some of that dodgy internal art of RQ3 products. I would also not want to see cartoon-like art in the next RuneQuest either. It has its place, but not in the flagship core rulebook

The only concern I have is that Glorantha is a very unique fantasy setting, with the detail being right down to specific clothing styles and architecture. Readers will make cultural analogies based on the artists illustrations, and sometimes this may deviate slightly from the authors perspectives. Over time very different interpretations of the cultures may develop, hence the numerous issues people have envisioning Orlanthi, Pelorian, Malkioni, etc

I could see these artists doing great incidental art, but unless they can work exactly to the specifications of the authors then I would not want them involved in the big colour spreads. 

For the large full-colour pages I would still prefer the artists who were involved in The Guide To Glorantha (and also HeroQuest), as this will retain the flavour and identity of Glorantha.

I agree that there needs to be great artists involved, so art direction needs to be the same standard as the G2G. As a mature audience, we have high standards for these things and are willing to shell out money, so I would prefer limited runs of high standard products as opposed to mass market low budget stuff. I think from what I have seen with Moon Design, they really understand the market for Glorantha.

Edited by Mankcam
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" Sure it's fun, but it is also well known that a D20 roll and an AC is no match against a hefty swing of a D100% and a D20 Hit Location Table!"

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A lot of RQ 3 illustration were just awful, others were competent but very dry and unexciting. 

The succesful pieces from the RQ3 era IMO were the covers for River of Cradles , Suncounty, shadows on the Borderland, and the Dorastor book. Strangers inPrax wasn't particularly inspiring , colours a bit too garish, not a great composition. 

Interior wise, River of cradles had expressive elements of Louise Perrin, but in some images the draughtsmanship was a bit too off. But over all I preferred the treatment to the interior work in Dorastor which was very dry.

Rq 2 Louise Perrin illustrations avoided that overly dry treatment that some illustrators adhere to. Very sensitive drawings which left room for the imagination as well, something that I think is important particulary in fantasy art. Dry overly detailed work provokes very little reaction in me. 

Nothing wrong with detail, but it can be rendered in a more expressive way. It's always about balance really, if there are tightly rendered areas, they should be balanced with more broken areas etc. 

Same goes for colour balance. I find some of the pictures in GtG horribly garish in the use of colour. Whilst I appreciate the attempt to render the particulars of Glorantha clothing culture etc the use colour is not great, and the compositions very unexciting (sorry) Colour effects the ability to express mood and atmosphere. If it's turned up high and over saturated then it becomes an ineffective tool, it's always better to keep a bit in reserve, other wise it's the equivalent of the artist shouting at full volume with colour, it get quite tiring for the viewer.

i think the new preview of the sable rider looks very good. It's descriptive but at the same time leaves room for the imagination. It's also very good strong draughtsmanship, and has that working drawing feel, that helps stimulate the imagination. Although it's detailed it remains open in its rendering. It pleasing to look at, and encourages me to look more, which is the sign of a succesful piece. I really hope we see more of that work, it's fresh and well balanced, and exciting.

I really hope we don't see the new RQ using past illustrations, it needs to be fresh and exciting, and cinematic in places. It should also have a different art direction from heroquest. The jan pospisil colour pieces I've already alluded to just don't feel right, colour wise and composition. They all have a really similar feel which is limited in what it can express- it all becomes a bit samey no matter the subject. 

IMO the starter set cover for the new D&D box set has a very succesful balance in terms of composition , colour, rendering of detail etc It's quite painterly, but the artist knows when to put detail in and when to leave it out, draughtsmanship is great. It has a cinematic excitement, which is helped by the scale and drama portrayed. 

I know it's a generic fantasy of D&D, but it portrays that genre very successfully, with the pictorial balance that I have touched on , and strong draughtsmanship. Importantly It leaves room for the imagination.

If this kind of quality, could be applied to new RQ & Glorantha, I think it could have big mainstream appeal.  

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Paid a bod yn dwp
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Just seeing how recent RPG products look like, there is no excuse of letting down production values in today's market. It does not matter you are not FFG. I don't see why I should expect anything less from Chaosium than:
http://www.modiphius.com/
http://cubicle7.co.uk/
http://schwalbentertainment.com/
http://site.pelgranepress.com/

And some of mu favorites in Europe regarding artwork are games like: Shadow of Esteren, Würm, Aquelarre, KULT: Divinity Lost, Symbaroum, etc.

Edited by jux
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51 minutes ago, jux said:

Just seeing how recent RPG products look like, there is no excuse of letting down production values in today's market. It does not matter you are not FFG. I don't see why I should expect anything less from Chaosium than:
http://www.modiphius.com/
http://cubicle7.co.uk/
http://schwalbentertainment.com/
http://site.pelgranepress.com/

And some of mu favorites in Europe regarding artwork are games like: Shadow of Esteren, Würm, Aquelarre, KULT: Divinity Lost, Symbaroum, etc.

Yes I think gone are the days of mediocre illustration in RPG products. If you want it to be a success it really needs to be something that inspires, and keeps you wanting to pick up the book. 

There's a lot of talent out there. I expect a new RQ with industry leading production values. Even if it takes a Kickstarter to get first choice artists.

there is an opportunity to make this game very big again as with RQ2 when it challenged D&D in the early eighties.

if it's packaged right then Glorantha could have mass appeal I think.

It would be excellent to see some awe inspiring art work. Some certainly needs to be eye catching to capture the drama, power, and scale of myth and legend. Maybe in the spirit of the cinematic tension, drama, scale , and magic of the D&d starter set cover. 

There is such a huge scope to flesh out the ancient cultures and fantasy like never before. It shouldn't use past Gloranthan art work as a mile stone, it's an opportunity for something even more spectacular 

Edited by Paid a bod yn dwp
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I would not mind one or two old Luis Perrin illustrations as a homage to RQ2, but most of the other art that gets recycled probably shouldn't turn up again in the next edition of RQ. Having said that, a few of the pieces from G2G and HWG could be used to provide a sense of setting consistency, but like most others I would like to see the majority of the book having its own identity with new art of a high quality.

Edited by Mankcam
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" Sure it's fun, but it is also well known that a D20 roll and an AC is no match against a hefty swing of a D100% and a D20 Hit Location Table!"

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There will be many interesting choices…

1 Cover and the logo
Bright colors or dark colors? The logo, I prefer the style Games Workshop had back in the days – visually great logos compared to the some of the typeface based "font"-logos.


2 Visualizating the rules
I remember an article from Adventurer or Imagine (million years ago) where all the Combat Situation Modifies were visualized with black'n'white drawings in a style of legendary Piero Ventura. Simple style, full of information (708112f50f83d514765e6a16e7b19170.jpg)

3 Realistic or High-fantasy art?
For me RQ is more close to "Hermann's Towers of Bois Mary" than the latest DD illustrations.

4 lay-out
Do you remember the Eyewitness books? Instead of the too obvious and perhaps a bit dull 2 column lay-out, the spreads like this might be refreshing: eyewitness-books-knight-16-638.jpg?cb=14

5 Should the illustrations be more humorous?
I think Chris Riddell's work has been great, Paul Bonner, Arthur Rackham, John Bauer, even Diterlizzi. Maybe not for Glorantha, but good choices for Warhammer Fantasy RP.

6 Inside art: color vs black'n'white?
As an old gamer myself, I prefer the look of the old black'n'white books with a touch of mystic or occult feeling than some of the new – candy colored –books don't have.

7 Typography
Level: professional or "my cousin knows how to use Word"…

Wow, this IS getting interesting!

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Great discussion - luis Perrin ( thanks for the spelling correction ) illustrations remain timeless and are a rare example of expressive, free drawing in fantasy art. I really like them. Flicking through rq2 there is not as much as I remebered. But it did a tremendous amount to sell RQ2 and Glorantha to me. That's the power of art that hits the mark. Of course the game worked excellently too, it all came together in a great package.

I do still like the River of cradles /Sun County/ shadows on the borderland covers. They brought the ancient setting to life. Although now I would criticise the rendering/drawing of the main figures in the foreground of river of cradles, overall it worked great, down to the details of the newtlings fishing at the river banks. Shadows on the border land had a great suspense about it , Cthulhu meets Indiana Jones, meets Glorantha, though I found the interior art disappointing. 

There is a lot of D&D 5e illustration that is awful, but lots that works well too. I still think the starter set cover is very succesful. It captures  a sense of the epic and fantastic. Quite a feat for an artist.

 

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While the Eyewitness books' layouts were visually interesting, let's not forget in the meanwhile that rulebooks are REFERENCE books too.  Visually impactful is great, but if it hinders the basic usefulness of the text, I'm not sure that's the best direction.

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I actually do not like the "every page a canvas" trend. It can be hard to read and it can be distracting. Also, art is not cheap even for a company with good connections and in house artists. For self publishing it can be cost prohibitive. Unfortunately a great many potential customers prefer style over substance. I also feel it places a premium on art, which while beautiful and immersive ultimately is not what you are buying an RPG book for. Which does not mean there are not great artists, famous or no, who deserve to get paid their due. However, the writer(s)' and editors also put a lot into the book. There are a lot of pretty RPGs that are terrible games.

As for what I personally would like to see? Artists who can update the old artwork either in a modern version or an homage piece, as well as quality b&W pieces, which are often better than color pieces. Creative but not outlandish. Someone also mentioned humor, which would be good IF its ironic and subtle. Slapstick nonsense would really break immersion IMHO. 

 

Its 2300hrs, do you know where your super dreadnoughts are?

http://reigndragonpressblog.blogspot.com/

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Agreed, the game & writing has to be excellent, thats a given. But I really don't think that a game with such potential for mainstream appeal should hold back on spending on top quality artists, its the whole package thats important if this game is to be big. There is always Kickstarter to help if budgeting is a problem. Don't under estimate the power of quality art to get people interested and inspired. Its the hook that brings about impulse buys, then the game and writing (if its good) keeps them coming back for more. RQ2 managed this. 

 

Black & white is great. As long as it's not dry and static as an image. It needs a bit movement in the drawing,  expression, & imagination to excite. 

 

Whilst the guide to Glorantha has some really good Gloranthan details in many of the images( i really like the Art nouveau/Pre Raphaelite feel of Hon Eel in one illustration) , an area i think has been particularly weak, has been the depictions of the elder races. They have never been inspiring for me. I do think Trolls have been well conceived in their bestial nature, though still could benefit from the hand of a new accomplished artist, but the Mostali dwarfs and Aldryami elves have been terrible IMO.

Art when its accomplished can communicate so much on many different levels. 

Looking at the images used in the guide for the Aldryami, I find them so badly ineffective, they communicate very little about the depth and wonder of this magical race. In contrast Brian Froud illustrates a similar concept to the elves of Glorantha, but does so with so much depth & character. His observations of plant life, twisted trees and a fusion of flesh & plant is just at a much greater level of sophistication. It has a strangeness, a weathered sense of time and age, earthy, deep rooted, and sense of forbidding and sense of the other. I'm not saying get Brian Froud to do the elves necessarily, but just trying to show how powerful imagery can be if you find the right artists. its an amazing tool for communication.

 

Elves GTG.jpg

elves 3.jpg

CVjGQvpWEAA3DGc.jpg

CVjDr5aWcAA-i0o.jpg

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My main concern is with the typeface used; please don't use the spindly Garamond face that Moon Design used for the Guide to Glorantha and for HeroQuest Glorantha. I'm sure it fits a lot of words on the page, but it makes the books hard for me to skim (and increasingly just hard to read) for my aging eyes. The type needn't be large, but I hope you'll use a slightly heavier face with a bit more page colour.

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Self-discipline isnt everything; look at Pol Pot.”
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1 hour ago, trystero said:

My main concern is with the typeface used; please don't use the spindly Garamond face that Moon Design used for the Guide to Glorantha and for HeroQuest Glorantha. I'm sure it fits a lot of words on the page, but it makes the books hard for me to skim (and increasingly just hard to read) for my aging eyes. The type needn't be large, but I hope you'll use a slightly heavier face with a bit more page colour.

This is something I've mentioned in the past (though at perhaps a more, er, confrontational time). It's clear that Moon Design like the general style of a Garamond face (me too), but there are weightier alternatives if this is an issue. The digitisation of Monotype Garamond is fairly notorious for its lack of body, which can be exacerbated depending on printing conditions.

If MD/Chaosium would like to keep the style but get a bit more depth, it might be worth checking out the other Garamond faces.

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We decided to stop using Garamond last year when we created a new "look and feel" for all Chaosium publications going forward, and that includes the HeroQuest and RuneQuest new books in the works. The Coming Storm will be the first gloranthan one published using this new look.

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Hope that Helps,
Rick Meints - Chaosium, Inc.

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1 hour ago, Rick Meints said:

We decided to stop using Garamond last year when we created a new "look and feel" for all Chaosium publications going forward, and that includes the HeroQuest and RuneQuest new books in the works. The Coming Storm will be the first gloranthan one published using this new look.

I'm very glad to hear it. Thanks for listening to your readers!

— 
Self-discipline isnt everything; look at Pol Pot.”
—Helen Fielding, Bridget Jones: The Edge of Reason

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The new template (with different fonts) was created because we decided to switch from B&W to full color layout as our new standard. 

While we get a fair amount of reader feedback, it generally spans the whole spectrum, although it is worth noting that most of it was positive.

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Hope that Helps,
Rick Meints - Chaosium, Inc.

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This discussion wouldn't be complete without including some art from the new Runequest.

I like the sketch/working drawing feel of this piece. There are some really nice qualities to the drawing, which remains open, not too tight , expressive, yet detailed, and it shows that the artist has a really good understanding of tone. I like the warm mottled water colour paper background. It gives a lovely unifying feel to the studies and a nice mid tone to play off. 

The style of drawing doesn't take it self too seriously, in that it has a feel of a accomplished graphic novel artist, which reminds us that this is a game. A good balance for the new RQ I think.

I also like that it feels like it could be an artists concept design for a character in a film. Which seems like a really good approach to illustrating a fantasy roleplay game, particularly a world as rich as Glorantha, where the details can be really fleshed out. In a sense we're all film directors in an RPG game, this illustration is giving us the tools to help bring the world to life.

I'm glad we're not looking at dry static drawings/renderings, but one with a bit of movement and expression. It's great that it's retained a sense of a working drawing, rather then a finished off piece.

I'm not sure who the artist is, but I think if this is the tone and standard for future RQ art direction then we could be in for a treat.

image.jpeg

Edited by Paid a bod yn dwp
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  • 2 weeks later...

I agree with the opinion about the "film directors". The sketch shown above is a great tool when describing the clothing.

"A bit of movement and expression"

I think the challenge is that sometimes the drawings have many details, but as a drawings they miss the movement and expression. Especially when the style of the clothing is a bit strange, the drawing itself should be so cool that it would make the clothing look cool!

Comparison:Orlanthi.png

many details, but the costumes and the characters don't look very interesting.
Casse.png

Here the drawing style makes the simple outfit look cool.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Kränted Powers said:

I think the challenge is that sometimes the drawings have many details, but as a drawings they miss the movement and expression. Especially when the style of the clothing is a bit strange, the drawing itself should be so cool that it would make the clothing look cool!

Comparison: [snip]

many details, but the costumes and the characters don't look very interesting.

[snip]

Here the drawing style makes the simple outfit look cool.

I prefer the first drawing, actually; neither the pose nor the style of the second one does much for me. To each their own...

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— 
Self-discipline isnt everything; look at Pol Pot.”
—Helen Fielding, Bridget Jones: The Edge of Reason

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