Mostali Mytho-Tech ... ?

[Noita]

Grenades, flintlock pistols, riding griffins and names like Sandy Saltpeterson and Wrong John Silver....

Pretty much sums up Griffin mt dwarves. About 4 pages of stats,  personalities and a bit of background.

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

So the dwarfs that trade and deal with humans on a daily basis ( openhandism) like those in Pavis or dragon pass, what type would be chosen for that job? Gold mostal? Or combination of types? 

I guess whoever it is needs to have a different set of skills to communicate effectively with humans. Some form of understanding of human nature and etiquette? A diplomat

Edited March 21, 2016 by Paid a bod yn dwp

[Tindalos]

That does seem to fall under the role of Gold Dwarfs. The description given of them in the art direction was: "These are the mind of Mostal. They are teachers, and maintain the continuity of dwarf society through correct project management and indoctrination. This dwarf is wise, cruel, and versed in secret lore. He is ugly and grotesque, but still presentable to humans, and wears ornate gold talismans, rings, bracelets, as well as clothes designed to impress inferior species such as humans."

I imagine they're viewed by humans ignorant of mostali culture as nobility, with their ostentatious displays of wealth and instruction of the other castes. The dwarves themselves probably find this a useful fiction to perpetuate. Which is why Ginkizzie is known as the king of the Pavic dwarves.

[Joerg]

Usually gold or iron dwarfs/mostali. Gold are overseers and planners, iron are designed for interacting with potentially dangerous outsiders. Iron dwarfs are known to act on their own, while gold dwarfs are supposed to be attended by other castes in order to function, so gold is the more fun way to do this.

In Heroquest, you could have one central character with some of the skills, and then distribute other skills among his dwarf retainers. Doesn't work that well for RQ, though.

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

And I suppose that these Golden mostali dwarfs that interact with humans are the ones most likely to be distracted by the contact with the outside world, and in rare cases swayed away form their Mostali beliefs to become mortal. Either that or a dwarf who can't except the discipline of mostal belief.

[soltakss]

1 hour ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

And I suppose that these Golden mostali dwarfs that interact with humans are the ones most likely to be distracted by the contact with the outside world, and in rare cases swayed away form their Mostali beliefs to become mortal. Either that or a dwarf who can't except the discipline of mostal belief.

Except that Gold Mostali are very old, very experienced and very magical so are not the kind of Mostali who would be influenced by outside influences.

It might be that the Gold Caste Mostali also include the ones who are learning, progressing towards Gold Mostali status, in which case they might be ripe for new ideas.

[Joerg]

18 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Except that Gold Mostali are very old, very experienced and very magical so are not the kind of Mostali who would be influenced by outside influences.

Nope. That's the diamond quasi-caste of the Decamony. Gold is a regular caste that dwarfs are created for/born in., and present also among Octamonists.

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

I do like the goblin inventions in the film "Labyrinth" as insipiration for the fantasy and inventiveness of the mostali. The cleaning wheel was a great idea, and a great sequence in the film.

also the armoured goblin Gatling gun in the film was excentric and fun. I could see that working for these mostali. The giant robot guardian of the city was also inspired.I think those ideas start to build up mostali into a real curiosity with lots of flavour

 

Edited March 21, 2016 by Paid a bod yn dwp

[Mankcam]

Yes these are great examples of how I envision Mostali inventions to be; the sense of eccentricity and weirdness really suits them

[Noita]

 

http://www.glorantha.com/forums/topic/dwarven-technology/

[Jeff]

Labyrinth and Mote in God's Eye both had a big impact on how I view the Mostali. The caste MOST often seen by humans are the Iron Dwarves - since human communities are always potential threats. Regular collection of resources with reciprocated product might well get handled by Iron Dwarves (this is not "trade", just part of the scripted resource collection procedure needed to maintain the collective). Those few communities that maintain regular - and unscripted - contact with humans likely interact with a Gold Dwarf (usually called "King of the Dwarves" by the humans).

So every year your community might present 500 kg leather hides, 100 kg of identically shaped river rocks, and a 15 meter high 1 meter diameter tree trunk (stripped of bark) to the Iron Dwarf "market". They present you with 10 axe heads and 5 broadswords, plus one hauberk of scale mail. Every year is exactly the same. No bargaining - and if you don't have exactly the right specifications, the Iron Dwarves give you nothing. 

That's not even Openhandism - the dwarves need those resources to maintain their facilities. The weapons are given so that the humans will massacre each other and the other Elder Races. Many - perhaps almost all - of these "agreements" date back to the Dawn. 

Openhandism is where the dwarves make *new* bargains with humans. "If you give us 1000 identical logs, we'll assign the Canon Cult to you for one season". Or "if you wipe out the trolls of Battle Valley, we'll let you use the the Alchemical Transformer to do it." Or even crazier "if you give us a certain regular supply of magic points via these ceremonies performed each season, we'll build you your city."

[David Scott]

The Mostali as Moties is an excellent comparison. If you haven't read The Mote in God's Eye and the Gripping Hand by Larry Niven & Jerry Pournelle, I'd recommend them. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mote-Gods-Eye-Book-ebook/dp/B004YDL2CY?ie=UTF8&btkr=1&ref_=dp-kindle-redirect

(I haven't read the third one Outies, so can't comment on that)

[Joerg]

One major difference between Mostali and Moties is their reproduction drive, though. Thankfully the Mostali are not subject to the curse of procreation or painful death, rather the reverse, with good maintenance they are potentially immortal.

The Motie caste system has quite a few similarities, too, but their lack of central government makes them quite different from the mostali drones. Maybe the Prime in Peter F. Hamilton's "Pandora's Star" are/is a better parallel in this regard. Or the Star Trek Borg collective.

The Mostali are bad enough without mandatory procreation whenever they pour forth from their underground fortresses. Apart from the destruction of the Spike, the giant assault on Nida, a God Learner occupation of the Iron Moutnains in Seshnela and certain Chaos intrusions, there are few examples which show a successful invasion of dwarf strongholds. No idea whether the Kingdom of War in Fronela or Harrek on Jrustela manage to enter and destroy as deeply as the giants in the Second Age.

 

[soltakss]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

One major difference between Mostali and Moties is their reproduction drive, though. Thankfully the Mostali are not subject to the curse of procreation or painful death, rather the reverse, with good maintenance they are potentially immortal.

Fortunately, according to Elder Secrets, grinding away with mortar and pestle for hours or days at a time is rather unpleasant for Mostali, thus explaining their low reproductive rate.

[Darius West]

Of course this neglects the most horrifying weapon of the Dwarves... their tinned food.

Also, in terms of mytho-tech, we also have the contributions of the Jrusteli and the Feldichi.

Edited September 24, 2016 by Darius West

[Pentallion]

Rereading tah

On 4/28/2016 at 9:16 PM, Iskallor said:

 

http://www.glorantha.com/forums/topic/dwarven-technology/

Rereading that old thread, I didn't remember Jeff wanting to see if dwarves could be made playable.  They most certainly were in the Tora's Hammer campaign we ran a few years back.  The most memorable dwarf had one line "I make cans.".  No matter what the obstacles, what dangers, what puzzles they had to overcome, he was completely useless and all he said was, "I make cans."  So of course, he saves the party on a couple of occasions because he made cans.

That summed up what made the adventure so unique and enjoyable.  Each dwarf had a job to do and the adventure required them to step outside that box, but they really couldn't, so they found interesting ways to deal with their challenges while remaining firmly within their designated roles.  That was the greatest challenge of all and is what made the adventure so much fun.

Oh, and rereading that reminded me that there was an argument for steam engined submarines over simpler water and air powered subs.  Oxygen and warmth.  Fire elementals couldn't keep the submarine from getting too cold because they'd eat up all the air.  So only releasing them to be instantaneously destroyed alongside a water elemental to produce steam provided the necessary warmth to the ship without using up its breathable air.  Air elementals were necessary for bouyancy.

And in any event, steam engines are more fun and fun trumps every other rational reason for anything.

Edited September 24, 2016 by Pentallion

[Mankcam]

I think Mostali could be playable as unusual oddities, although getting into their alien mind-set may be quite difficult for many people.

Just as long as players don't play them like typical high fantasy dwarven tropes then it could work. I picture them to be very Brian Froudish these days, and I think the goblins from the 1980s 'Labryinth' movie have much more in common with Mostali than the Dwarves from The Hobbit films. 

I haven't read all of Larry Niven's 'The Mote In God's Eye', but I'm familiar with the aliens in it, The 'Moties'. Their vocation-caste system is a pretty good analogy for Mostali society, and given that the book is from the mid 1970s  then it is bound to have influenced Greg Stafford's views on The Mostali to some extent.

Steam-punk goblinoid folk who behave quite eccentric and impersonal at times pretty much wraps them up. I don't think humans would trust them very much, other than for trade purposes, and with good reason. The Mostali plans to rebuild The World Machine may not necessarily benefit mankind...

Edited October 1, 2016 by Mankcam
Spelling correction

[M Helsdon]

On ‎4‎/‎29‎/‎2016 at 11:35 AM, David Scott said:

(I haven't read the third one Outies, so can't comment on that)

A bit disappointing as it watered down the original and nature of the Moties. Best to avoid unless you are a completist. Jennifer Pournelle's background in archaeology and anthropology is very apparent, but the big reveal sorely damages the earlier two books.

[TRose]

On ‎3‎/‎19‎/‎2016 at 11:20 AM, Iskallor said:

There's a Mostali walking drinks dispenser in my Prax game. A little copper man that vents steam and gives up drams of firewater from his finger. My players broke it.

 One thing my Dwarves have and guard almost as jealous as the secret to gunpowder is how to distill alcohol.  Everyone else has to do with wine and Beer while only Dwarves have whiskey. Its a major trade item

 For the record on Earth its was not till around 1000 Ad people learned how to distill Brandy and whiskey.

Edited September 29, 2016 by TRose

[Noita]

There's a cactus spirit in the Wastes called Takeela who will teach worshippers how to make a drink from his cactus pulp...

[David Scott]

22 hours ago, Iskallor said:

There's a cactus spirit in the Wastes called Takeela who will teach worshippers how to make a drink from his cactus pulp...

This fits in perfectly with the Praxian group of spirits called the Lonely Ones:

Quote

Waha and his friends were not able to meet every spirit and soul in the fragmented Wastelands before their deaths. Waha’s Net caught most of those they missed and bound them into the Wastelands. These singular spirits are everywhere. Some are friendly and will willingly help those that seek them out. Some hate everything them due to wrongs that Waha did against them, including being bound to the Wastelands. Most are neutral, and wait to see what is offered in return for their work.

(Plant rune) Takeela. This cactus spirit teaches a charm that ferments his cactus pulp into a drink inside a leather bottle. The taboo of the Ferment Me charm is Drink it all.

[Noita]

My players have dealt with this spirit in our game. I shall add his charm to his page.

We have lots of spirits.Plants, animals and odds and bods. The pc's talk to them frequently.

Here's a few they deal with (2pages). Thanks Andrew Larsen for many of them.

http://rpol.net/display.cgi?gi=56812&ti=18&date=1472316846&msgpage=1

[David Scott]

We've got sidetracked from the original topic, i'll flick this plant spirit thread over to http://basicroleplaying.org/topic/4141-prax-and-the-thousand-questions-about-the-place/?page=1 later as It raises some interesting thoughts about plant spirits for me.