heroquest Heroquest - Fallout

[boztakang]

While it is true that applying Myths to the real world in a This World quest can be dangerous, it is usually beneficial, if you do it correctly.

In the troll example, if it works to plan, your friend playing the "troll" part boosts your Orlanth magic a bit, and makes the rest of the "quest" a bit more likely to match the intended myth, with very minimal risk. In general, that will be the "most likely" outcome. Now, if you are "lucky" or have enough magical power invested in your quest, it may be that while your "troll" friend is waiting for you to show up, a real Karrg Son, glowing with Hero Umbra, arrives at the appointed location at just the right moment. This may be a very good thing - if he happens to be doing the "same" quest (or a similar stage in a different troll quest) then the outcome will still be predictable, and hugely beneficial to both parties, strengthening both quests, and drawing additional magic into them. On the other hand, if the Troll happens to be at the climax of his own "Uz barsh puny Air Gods" quest, the outcome could be very bad indeed. In game terms, the Troll then will have pulled our unfortunate orlanthi into His this world quest, rather than the other way around. This could be a "heroquest surprise" or just plain bad luck for the Heroes.

I don't think that Heroquests "choose" opponents for you, so much as Glorantha tends to arrange itself so that events in Time match their Mythological "templates" as closely as possible. A this world HQ is just an attempt to make sure that the "right myth" (the one with the greatest benefit to you) is pre-eminent in a given situation. There are surprises and complications, of course, because mortals cannot hope to fully understand the full implications of True Myth. The Myth may not be quite what the Players thought, or other Myths might be stronger or take precedent in that particular situation.

From a practical in-game point of view, MGF should determine how many, or how serious, the complications are when attempting to apply a particular Myth to whatever the PCs seem to think it might fit. If the myth is interesting and "feels right" then it should probably work reasonably well. If the fit stretches credulity, or the PCs try to over-use a myth they had success with before, it is time to throw in some uglier complications, or unexpected consequences.

Don't forget that Myths ARE the fundamental reality of Glorantha. Sure, Time has watered them down and mixed them up, but any time a Man steals something from Darkness, it really is an echo of the Sandals of Darkness to one degree or another. Either that, or it is an echo of "Kyger Litor's Food Song" which doesn't go so well for the "raider" but is much much more delicious.

[Joerg]

I am a bit divided between using mythic parallels for mundane purposes as a quest, or as supporting scenic frame building for a known magical feat.

Just like the timing (auspicious dates as per season, week and day runes), identification of the opposition with appropriate mythical foes aids the magic of such feats. Still, all of this is happening in the mundane world, not on the hero planes.

A heroquest on the hero plane will drag aspects of the outcome of that quest into the mundane world - framing for the magic on a large scale.

 

I wonder if an Orlanth-worshipping Praxian could use the Plundering of Aron instead the Waha quest to regain stolen herd beasts, and whether he would have to have done the quest beforehand in order to get the appropriate magic for his This World task, or whether quest and task are one and the same.

[Robin "RoM" Mitra]

I think one additional point is worth mentioning. Otherworld heroquests always have an element of surprise. There is always a step you haven't prepared for. Merging the previous posts this could lead to the following situation: Orlanth (and the player characters) plan to steal from Yelm. Yelm (and adversary non-player characters) expect an attack from Karrg's Son and prepare to fight if off. Karrg's Son wants to raid Orlanth's stead in the heat of the night. All three parties meet their expected enemies but also an unexpected one. It is a perfect love triangle, in which the Orb of Authority might end up in the hands of the trolls.

[jajagappa]

11 hours ago, Steve said:

But I still think it's going to be extremely difficult to find a suitable myth to fit any particular situation the PCs find themself in.

I think that is true.  And I don't think you can simply declare yourself to be on a heroquest in the middle of a raid (just because it somewhat conforms to your raid does not mean it will have any magical implications).  But I do think you could initiate a heroquest in the right circumstances - but it takes time to do so, it takes getting the right accoutrements, and to establish the right frame for the quest.  And that creates risks that should seriously warn off the unprepared.

As a hero/PC, I can decide to go off and raid the Sazdorf Ruins with the goal to steal the High Priestess' magical sandals.  There's no specific heroquest involved.  If I succeed, I have the sandals.  If I fail, I'm likely one of the heads on Sigron's wall.

Now, my party of adventurers could decide to make this raid into a heroquest.  One of the party may be a priest of Orlanth, knows the myth of the Sandals of Darkness, and knows the steps to undertake it as a This World Heroquest.  To do so, the PC's need to start on the Hill of Orlanth Victorious (which is not that far away).  Of course, that happens to be occupied and guarded by a Lunar patrol, so there's a complication just to start the quest.  But the PC's dispatch the patrol and perform the ceremony and ritual to invoke the quest and get underway.  Now, there's a slight issue here - there's very little or no community support - the only folk present to perform the ceremony are the PC's and they'll be on the quest.  The PC's go merrily off on their quest, find the Back Door to the Sazdorf caves and go in.  They've ritually entered the 'Underworld' station, though because it's a This World quest, it's still just the Sazdorf caves.  But as they descend, they are attacked by the ghosts of the Lunars they killed (whose souls got dragged along by the PC's because they were ritually heading to the 'Underworld') - that's a surprise!  And further in they encounter an Argan Argar merchant.  He offers them hospitality.  And in the ritual maybe the PC's are supposed to pledge the 'friendship of their community' in return.  But they can't because they didn't get such support in the first place.  The Argan Argar merchant turns away, and the PC's are set upon by 'Zorak Zoran' and his legion.  Later expeditions to the Sazdorf find the heads of said PC's decorating Sigron's wall.

The proper way for these PC's to begin the This World Heroquest is within their community where they convince their Chief that they should raid the Sazdorf clan because the High Priestess has the Sandals of Darkness and their clan needs those to survive.  The community blesses the ritual, adding their own magic in some fashion into it.  Perhaps its in the form of a feather of a red-headed woodpecker, or the drinking horn from a red cow, or something else.  This will help the quest at some critical point.  And there will still be surprises, but at least they start on the  right foot.

And then there is the Otherworld Heroquest which may start very similarly to the This World Heroquest getting community support.  But when the heroes descend from Orlanth's Hill at the start of the ritual, they are no longer on the mundane plane but in the midst of the Gods War during the Darkness.  And they do literally descend into the Underworld.  And they may encounter the ghosts of Lunars they have killed upon the Endless Path towards the River of Swords before they come to the Castle of Lead where Kyger Litor resides.  Etc.

[jajagappa]

8 hours ago, boztakang said:

In the troll example, if it works to plan, your friend playing the "troll" part boosts your Orlanth magic a bit, and makes the rest of the "quest" a bit more likely to match the intended myth, with very minimal risk.

And with very minimal reward.  That's the price for 'stacking the deck'.

Or, alternately, just because you try to minimize the risk, there is no guarantee that it will in fact do so.  The 'troll' may not play the part correctly, miss some key actions, and instead of the 'easy' quest, you find yourself under attack by a Death Lord and his legion of Undead.

[jajagappa]

8 hours ago, boztakang said:

If the myth is interesting and "feels right" then it should probably work reasonably well. If the fit stretches credulity, or the PCs try to over-use a myth they had success with before, it is time to throw in some uglier complications, or unexpected consequences.

Yes!  And this is where I feel you need to at least align some of the right factors (needs to start on the right day, have the right companions or weapons or trade goods, etc.) or else it's more likely to go off track

[soltakss]

15 hours ago, Joerg said:

I wonder if an Orlanth-worshipping Praxian could use the Plundering of Aron instead the Waha quest to regain stolen herd beasts, and whether he would have to have done the quest beforehand in order to get the appropriate magic for his This World task, or whether quest and task are one and the same.

 

Sure, whichever works best.

One of the benefits that Arkat had was that he joined multiple cults and learned their HeroQuests, enabling him to realise that many of the HeroQuests had common factors/places/events, allowing him to jump from one HeroQuest to another.

Different cults have different HeroQuests that can be used for the same sort of thing. Waha frees Herd beasts to make them part of the clan, Orlanth steals them as a raider. The end result is the same, the herd beasts belong to the raider. However, the herd beasts freed by Waha would belong to the clan in an entirely different way, they wouldn't want to escape, would obey the raider and so on. The herd beasts stolen by an Orlanthi using the Plundering of Aron would be chattel, belongings, not really part of the clan and not integrated with the raider. The clan that the herd beasts were stolen from might decide to raid the Orlanthi in revenge but not raid the Wahan because the Waha Quest legitimised the taking of the beasts.

 

[Joerg]

10 minutes ago, soltakss said:

One of the benefits that Arkat had was that he joined multiple cults and learned their HeroQuests, enabling him to realise that many of the HeroQuests had common factors/places/events, allowing him to jump from one HeroQuest to another.

Arkat learned how he could take on a different mythical role while on the Hero Plane (without falling out of it). Likewise the God Learners.

You don't have to belong to a cult to attempt a heroquest. The God Learners made do with fragments of stolen knowledge, and the Lhankor Mhytes are experts in putting together little shards of myths into a comprehensive and explorable path on the Hero Planes (which is what the God Learners liked about them).

This is a memory I cherish from running the original Rise of Ralios freeform - the stalwart band of Orlanthi questers was down in Yelm's Court of Ashes for the second time in the game (having found Arkat the Liberator on the first run, and ending up feeling underwhelmed/betrayed), so they went back for some deity of light to counter the Darkness of the Arkats. I made encouraging noises about the fact that there used to be a deity of light balancing Arkat, and that the Pelorians knew of a quest how to find this entity. So off they went from the ritual of the web, turning even deeper following the vague information they had on the Red Goddess Quest, and emerged from the Underworld riding the Star Bear carrying Nysalor. (It did help a lot that Nick Brooke acted as the leader of the questers on this run...)

 

10 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Waha frees Herd beasts to make them part of the clan, Orlanth steals them as a raider.

The Plundering of Aron was the raid to get back all the herds stolen by the Enchanter of Aron. While I am certain that there are myths about Orlanth raiding another tribe's herds, price bulls or horses, this one isn't.

 

10 minutes ago, soltakss said:

The end result is the same, the herd beasts belong to the raider. However, the herd beasts freed by Waha would belong to the clan in an entirely different way, they wouldn't want to escape, would obey the raider and so on. The herd beasts stolen by an Orlanthi using the Plundering of Aron would be chattel, belongings, not really part of the clan and not integrated with the raider. The clan that the herd beasts were stolen from might decide to raid the Orlanthi in revenge but not raid the Wahan because the Waha Quest legitimised the taking of the beasts.

Like I said above - the herds in question in the Plundering of Aron were magically stolen from the Vingkotlings, from under the protection of their wyters, and would make little to no trouble when led back.

[Charles]

On 3/20/2016 at 6:25 PM, Ebaninth said:

Lets say your Sartarite characters undertake a Heroquest with Sun Worshipers as the antagonists.  In the quest they(Orlanth & some Thunder brothers) travel to Yelms palace to steal an item, and during the process they have to fight 4 palace guards or a Yelmic guard deity (one does not spring to mind). 

Assuming they succeed, they start in Sartar and pop into the gods world to undertake an "Otherworld Heroquest".  Who do they end up fighting/defeating/killing, and what happens in the "This World".  Is it the case that the 4 guards in the four corners of the Sartar Sun Dome are found dead at their posts the next morning?  Do they remember have bad dreams on guard the night before? As the "Otherworld" is before time, someone was pulled into the Otherworld Heroquest and they will eventually die from it?  Some Sundomers (as representatives of the guards in the HQ) somewhere in the past or future die?

My opinions...

In an otherworld quest, the hidden Gloranthan rule of synchronicity means that, somewhere in Glorantha, someone is going on a quest where they have an encounter. Strangely enough, your character acts (has, knows) something like their opponent and they act (have, know) something like the opponent required for your character's quest. Usually, this happens at exactly the same mundane Time, but can be offset in time. So if your Sartarite character wins against a solar opponent, then somewhere else, some group have just failed in their stage, which could be in a Yelmalio temple. However, they may have intended to fail so that they can access a more important stage in their own quest. Generally, being killed on a quest outside some of the most powerful areas (such as the deep Underworld, through the hidden door into Orlanth's secret realm, etc.) does not result in death in the mundane world. But the resulting loss of power, prestige, etc. may lead to death.

These analogies can stretch quite a way. Why shouldn't a powerful Ernaldan going on a quest could appear as a mountain to be climbed by an inexperienced Orlanthi?

Quote

 

If there is a heroquest "Orlanth goes raiding" why don't (when they hear that the Lunars are invading in 1602) all warthanes throughout Sartar and Heortland start undertaking the heroquest to whittle down the attacking army as they move towards the Sartarite muster.

I understand the "This World" heroquest (a good example being the Biturian[Cults of Prax] account with the Sundomers) is just a matter of being in the wrong place at the wrong time, but the "Other World" confuses me.

 

The synchronicity generally (but not always) works both ways - both sides initiate their quests at the same time. And, if not, there are signs that one is being drawn into a this world quest. If one sees the signs (omens, portents, feelings), one can generally take actions to reduce ones identification as an opponent - an Orlanthi could deliberately act in an Ernaldan manner.

Quote

Can you pop into an "Other World" HQ to get away from someone.  Then go nowhere waiting and pop back out once time passes and the threat has passed.

If one's god or pantheon has an appropriate myth of hiding, then yes. Eurmal has many such myths that will often work but almost as often expose the quester in an even more indiscreet fashion. But for most good Orlanthi (in the biggest sense of all, including Ernaldans), Eurmal's myth are personally inappropriate, whatever their utility.

Edited March 23, 2016 by Charles

[Charles]

Quote

... the hidden Gloranthan rule of synchronicity means that, somewhere in Glorantha, someone is going on a quest where they have an encounter. Strangely enough, your character acts (has, knows) something like their opponent and they act (have, know) something like the opponent required for your character's quest.

And if the characters are quite experienced heroquestors, the GM should work out who their main and secondary heroquest foes are from the questing backstory, so that the characters can start to pick up hints of who it might be. Particularly powerful magic, such of the Eye of the Halfbird (from S:KoH) might even allow the veil of the otherworld to be pierced to see exactly who an enemy is. And one might want to sabotage an enemy in the mundane world to reduce their chances on the next quest or limit their options.

[Patrick]

On 22/03/2016 at 9:41 AM, Steve said:

I just don't buy the whole idea of getting a RWH to neatly match to something you want to do in the real world, without very great dangers and unplanned things happening.

 

 

The way I see it... (and YGWV!) it actually looks quite a natural thing for Gloranthans to fit This World HQs into situations, because myths are the very fabric, not just of Glorantha, but also of their mindset.

Their "intellectual tools", if you will, are the myths that shaped their culture. Myths explain the world as it is, and provide applicable solutions to its challenges.

As the Zorak Zorani proverb goes:

"If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail" ;-)

 

So in a way, it's not so much that people will try to force a match between a mundane situation and a myth, it's more the other way round: they see a situation and they think "wait, our herd beasts were stolen, what can we do about it? what did Orlanth do when it happened to Him?"

And off you go to re-enact the Plunder of Aron, or whatever myth is appropriate in your culture.

In fact, that's what most people will try in one way or another - depending on how much magic they can put in it.

If you're a devotee, you can use a feat on the spot; which shares pretty similar constraints to a This World HQ, doesn't it? You have to re-enact the actions of the God, follow a set sequence, etc. (and Glorantha being what it is, its mythical laws of physics grant you a huge bonus when doing so, which makes it worth it, in spite of these constraints. Under HGQ rules it's a +M IIRC!).

If you have community support and some time to prepare, then you can do even more, and that's a This World HQ. Which still involves a lot of mundane actions: maybe the fyrd of the clan will gather and support the Orlanthi quester, and in a way it's just the battle they were going to fight to get their beasts back, anyway. Except, because they identify to the Thunder Brothers, and the whole community sends their prayers, they also get bonuses, and they give additional magic to the Quester(s), etc.

And if you really have time, resources, and great personal magic and want to go big, then you may perform an Otherworld HQ. Much more dangerous, much more rewarding too. And in some cases, you may be forced to this last resort. If the Lunars occupy your lands, crushed your tribe, and stole your beasts, well, just getting some mundane magic to free them back from the closest garrison won't really save you. Next thing, the whole Lunar Army will come back, kill or enslave everyone, or even feed the Bat on your clan... So before starving, maybe an Otherworld HQ can help: you'd get magical beasts, or some great items to trade for a new herd, and keep ruminating your hatred for the Moonlovers till you can really retaliate.

 

But in all cases, you're essentially doing "what's right to do/what you know how to do" as Orlanthi, for instance. And it doesn't mean you're not acting smart, or not taking the mundane into account; you are, and you apply a pattern/solution/technique/tactic/strategy you know (in the form of a myth), rather than improvising because, hey, Orlanth did it and it worked!

Edited March 25, 2016 by Patrick