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Runequest at Gencon


ShawnLStroud

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Now that I am back in NZ, I can write up my scribbled notes from GENCON. I liked the look of the draft RQ player rules that were available for inspection at the Chaosium booth. Some bits that I wrote down at Friday Seminar on Runequest:

  • The new edition allows you to play a "King of Dragon Pass" style game
  • Chaosium wants to replicate the Call of Cthulhu organised play for Runequest with Glorantha scenarios
  • The GMs book will have heroquest rules in it
  • More new material is being planned than ever before
  • Will be compatible with fantasy Grounds
  • Khan of Khans - a simple cattle raiding card game
  • Other related products: 13th Age in Glorantha manuscript is finished, Godswar kickstarter about to start, new edition of Dragon Pass in the works, and a sequel to the KODP computer game
  • New sorcery rules are intended to be easy to use
  • GMs book will have rules on becoming a hero
  • Default setting has a date change with events out to the 1630s - moving beyond "Braveheart" into a more complex political situation that allows groups of mixed Orlanthi/Lunar cultists to be playing together.
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12 hours ago, Texarkana said:

Now that I am back in NZ, I can write up my scribbled notes from GENCON. I liked the look of the draft RQ player rules that were available for inspection at the Chaosium booth. Some bits that I wrote down at Friday Seminar on Runequest:

  • The new edition allows you to play a "King of Dragon Pass" style game
  • Chaosium wants to replicate the Call of Cthulhu organised play for Runequest with Glorantha scenarios
  • The GMs book will have heroquest rules in it
  • More new material is being planned than ever before
  • Will be compatible with fantasy Grounds
  • Khan of Khans - a simple cattle raiding card game
  • Other related products: 13th Age in Glorantha manuscript is finished, Godswar kickstarter about to start, new edition of Dragon Pass in the works, and a sequel to the KODP computer game
  • New sorcery rules are intended to be easy to use
  • GMs book will have rules on becoming a hero
  • Default setting has a date change with events out to the 1630s - moving beyond "Braveheart" into a more complex political situation that allows groups of mixed Orlanthi/Lunar cultists to be playing together.

Thanks for the info.

When you say "More new material is being planned than ever before" where they talking about info for RQ, including scenarios? Cheers

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3 hours ago, jongjom said:

Thanks for the info.

When you say "More new material is being planned than ever before" where they talking about info for RQ, including scenarios? Cheers

One of my notes reads "will be getting more writers to draft scenarios". The start of the session featured an overview of the history of the RQ game and "tragic period" of Avalon Hill overlordship in which not enough material was published to support the game. So it felt clear to me that Chaosium were setting goals to improve on past performance, even if it was too soon to tell us what the product line up was likely to be. I wrote down something about a pitch for a big campaign pack, but I cannot recall now if that came from Chaosium or a member of the audience.

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2 hours ago, Texarkana said:

One of my notes reads "will be getting more writers to draft scenarios". The start of the session featured an overview of the history of the RQ game and "tragic period" of Avalon Hill overlordship in which not enough material was published to support the game. So it felt clear to me that Chaosium were setting goals to improve on past performance, even if it was too soon to tell us what the product line up was likely to be. I wrote down something about a pitch for a big campaign pack, but I cannot recall now if that came from Chaosium or a member of the audience.

Yes, we are conscious that the game needs actual material to play. As mentioned in the Gen Con seminar, a big problem with RQ3 was that the first scenario material for Glorantha that wasn't a reprint did not appear for some eight years after the release of the new edition (Sun County, 1992). We will have new scenarios from the go-get for new RQ.

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3 hours ago, Texarkana said:

One of my notes reads... "tragic period" of Avalon Hill overlordship in which not enough material was published to support the game

Really?  Who asserted that?

 

Monster Coliseum

Vikings

Land of Ninja

Griffin Island

Glorantha, Crucible of the Hero Wars

Gods of Glorantha

Elder Secrets of Glorantha

Troll Pak

Troll Gods

Into the Troll Realms

Haunted Ruins

Sun County

River of Cradles

Dorastor

Snakepipe Hollow

Apple Lane

Lords of Terror

Gloranthan Bestiary

Shadows on the Borderlands

Strangers in Prax

Daughters of Darkness

Eldarad

RQ Cities

RQ Monsters

,,,,and let's not forget who actually published Dragon Pass?

Curious to describe AH's stewardship as "Not enough material published to support the game" .... ?

I daresay that list not only compares favorably in quantity to the entire sum of Chaosium RQ products before it, some of the products there are among the qualitatively best supplements I've ever owned for ANY game.

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33 minutes ago, styopa said:

Really?  Who asserted that?

[snip]

,,,,and let's not forget who actually published Dragon Pass?

Curious to describe AH's stewardship as "Not enough material published to support the game" .... ?

I daresay that list not only compares favorably in quantity to the entire sum of Chaosium RQ products before it, some of the products there are among the qualitatively best supplements I've ever owned for ANY game.

There were about half-a-dozen speakers tag teaming at the seminar, and I did not write down who spoke what. 

Part of the seminar covered the belief that Avalon Hill's marketing and research strengths would allow RQ to grow and allow more boardgames to reach a wider market, but the anecdotes presented made it clear that AH did not really understand roleplaying games and the opportunity was squandered. I would agree that some of the AH era supplements are of exceptional quality, the only rpg material I did not sell when I shifted countries in 2007 was my RQ books.

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51 minutes ago, styopa said:

Who asserted that?

 

Monster Coliseum

Vikings

Land of Ninja

Griffin Island

Glorantha, Crucible of the Hero Wars

Gods of Glorantha

Elder Secrets of Glorantha

Troll Pak

Troll Gods

Into the Troll Realms

Haunted Ruins

Having lived through the 1982-1992 drought, I'd certainly assert it.  And I suspect that was the point being made.

Of the titles above, only Gods of Glorantha, Glorantha: CotHW, and Elder Secrets has a reasonable level of Glorantha content, AND NO SCENARIOS.

Troll Pak, Into the Troll Realms, Haunted Ruins -- all reprints.  Griffin Island - an annoying pseudo-reprint which lost its Glorantha context.

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1 hour ago, styopa said:

Really?  Who asserted that?

It was me. And I stand by that.

29 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Having lived through the 1982-1992 drought, I'd certainly assert it.  And I suspect that was the point being made.

Of the titles above, only Gods of Glorantha, Glorantha: CotHW, and Elder Secrets has a reasonable level of Glorantha content, AND NO SCENARIOS.

Troll Pak, Into the Troll Realms, Haunted Ruins -- all reprints.  Griffin Island - an annoying pseudo-reprint which lost its Glorantha context.

That was the point being made. No new scenarios - actual stuff to play in Glorantha - until Sun County came out eight years after RQ3 was released.

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2 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Having lived through the 1982-1992 drought, I'd certainly assert it.  And I suspect that was the point being made.

Of the titles above, only Gods of Glorantha, Glorantha: CotHW, and Elder Secrets has a reasonable level of Glorantha content, AND NO SCENARIOS.

Troll Pak, Into the Troll Realms, Haunted Ruins -- all reprints.  Griffin Island - an annoying pseudo-reprint which lost its Glorantha context.

I agree what you say. Very much a drought that almost killed off the game and world.

However in 1983 the Big Rubble and Pavis was published by Chaosium Inc. and the Golden Era was still going strong.

RQIII was first published in 1984 and at the time AH supported the game world with Gods of Glorantha (1985). But it was too long a wait before Genertela (1988) was published along with reprints of RQII material (NB. give the dog/supporters a bone: SPH was republished in 1987). Only until Sun Country arrived (1992) did RQ have its first new Gloranthan scenario material, but the RQ Renaissance petered 2 years later out when Dorastor (1994) was published with what was to become the last AH scenario supplement.

So yes, I'll like some new RuneQuest Gloranthan scenarios regularly published!! My main concern is that they will be dedicated RuneQuest - not HeroQuest mind set scenarios with RQ stats added as an afterthought. Oh, for the elusive RQ vibe.

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5 minutes ago, jongjom said:

So yes, I'll like some new RuneQuest Gloranthan scenarios regularly published!! My main concern is that they will be dedicated RuneQuest - not HeroQuest mind set scenarios with RQ stats added as an afterthought. Oh, for the elusive RQ vibe.

I'm currently writing an introductory RQ scenario with Ken Rolston. Neither of us have ever written for HeroQuest.

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Ok, I know I will sound polemic (and obviously biased...) but I feel there is something that needs be said, at this point.

That Avalon Hill did not do what it was expected to do needs no further prove at this point. However, I am afraid that some statements that should have a limited applicability (they are valid only when there is a clear "for Glorantha" appended to them, apart from the obvious IMO) are slowly turning into general considerations; which turns them into false statements. I think the point needs to be stressed a little bit, so that it is clear and unambiguous that people are (legitimately) speaking from different points of view.

5 hours ago, MOB said:

Yes, we are conscious that the game needs actual material to play. As mentioned in the Gen Con seminar, a big problem with RQ3 was that the first scenario material for Glorantha that wasn't a reprint did not appear for some eight years after the release of the new edition (Sun County, 1992). We will have new scenarios from the go-get for new RQ.

Emphasis mine. Yes, it was a problem for those who wanted to only play the game in Glorantha. My best campaign (1989-90) was not set in Glorantha, and did not suffer from this problem, while it greatly benefitted from Land of Ninja despite not being a Nihon campaign. The campaign also relied heavily on the "broken and unfun" RQ3 sorcery rules. <polemic>I am really embarrassed that we were so busy having fun with those rules* that we did not notice that they were supposed to actually prevent us from enjoying ourselves.</polemic>

* quote stolen from Vile

4 hours ago, styopa said:

I daresay that list not only compares favorably in quantity to the entire sum of Chaosium RQ products before it, some of the products there are among the qualitatively best supplements I've ever owned for ANY game.

Definitely true. Vikings, Land of Ninja and RQ Cities are pure gold, enough to give you thousands of hours of game fun.

3 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Troll Pak, Into the Troll Realms, Haunted Ruins -- all reprints.  Griffin Island - an annoying pseudo-reprint which lost its Glorantha context.

As above: <polemic>when we played Griffin Island, we were so busy having fun that we did not notice how annoying the de-Gloranthized version of the supplement was. </polemic> And when we played Griffin Island we had already done three years of Gloranthan intensive play, which included kicking Delecti's arse twice, surviving a close encounter with the Bat and some serious heroquesting. Yet even with a sizeable dose of Gloranthan lore (and love) in our background we did not regret the fact that we had orcs instead of Uz in the Island.

2 hours ago, MOB said:

It was me. And I stand by that.

That was the point being made. No new scenarios - actual stuff to play in Glorantha - until Sun County came out eight years after RQ3 was released.

Emphasis MOB's. And the point is the same: the statement is perfectly agreeable, but it refers to "RuneQuest in Glorantha", not "RuneQuest".

Now, when it comes to providing playable materials and scenarios, I do not need to state my opinion because my works speaks for me. I have never written a supplement which contained fewer than two different scenarios, or one full campaign. All of my Fantasy Europe books are 50% setting - 50% scenarios in page count. I am not in the "we want more scenarios" camp, I am in the "I commit to providing more scenarios to players" camp.

But in the period ranging from 1984 to 1992, some good, playable materials did come out. Sure, "that book we use to illuminate the nights on the Rhine Valley" also dates back from that period, but not everything is at that level. Vikings and Land of Ninja both have high quality scenarios in them, enough to teach people how to play RuneQuest effectively. RQ Cities is among the supplements with the greatest "play values" I ever saw. The original version of "Kidnapping in Al-Halisa", my Arabian Night scenario, was created randomly with RQ Cities. Give a man a scenario and he will play one day, give him a random generator and he will play for a lifetime.

In addition to this, RuneQuest consolidated its vocation as a "culturally aware" RPG in exactly that period. Yes, that aspect leveraged the fantastic experience of Cults of Prax and the original Trollpak for RQ2, but those were supplements. The first edition to integrate the "cultural approach" to roleplaying into the core rules was RQ3. This process later progressed with the rich cultural details of Vikings and Nihon, and the "What the priest told me" and "What my father told me" sections of Gods of Glorantha and Genertela:CotHW. Personally (and I stress it is a personal opinion, but I would really like to hear whether someone has a counter-argument) I think that this sort of materials was way more important for the building of a product identity for RuneQuest than the scenarios that were previously published by Chaosium, which were still rooted in the dungeon crawl genre even when they desperately tried to abandon that tradition. And most of the "cultural" materials appeared, or reached its final form, in the 1984-1992 timeframe.

Now Chaosium has opted once again for a tight coupling of RuneQuest and Glorantha. I am absolutely not entitled to commenting on this decision, nor can anyone say that it does not make sense business-wise. It was a perfectly legit decision as it leverages IPs that Moon Design owns, and Chaosium has already shown that Fantasy Earth will be supported, too, with Mythic Iceland.

What I really find problematic is that some comments and analysis too often risk to trespass into the territory of "that version of the game produced BadWrongFun". At least one of the comments I quoted above is unpleasant to read for those who appreciated the de-Gloranthized supplement in question. I have recently read a snarky "you can keep yer Europe" comment that adds nothing positive to the discussion and is not in the tradition of these boards. Honestly, this is how the seeds of edition wars get planted, and edition wars are not in the tradition of BRP.

If you allow me to take off my hat of "party who has a vested interest" for a moment, I really, really would like to see much more comments about how RuneQuest is about to become a great and fun game, and an attractive introduction to Glorantha for new players, and much, much fewer comments about how this or that product line "almost killed the game".

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1 hour ago, RosenMcStern said:

Ok, I know I will sound polemic (and obviously biased...) but I feel there is something that needs be said, at this point.

<<<snip>>>

If you allow me to take off my hat of "party who has a vested interest" for a moment, I really, really would like to see much more comments about how RuneQuest is about to become a great and fun game, and an attractive introduction to Glorantha for new players, and much, much fewer comments about how this or that product line "almost killed the game".

I agree with much of what you have to say. Including some of the great products (e.g. Vikings [which is awesome], LoN, Cities) that I should have shown more respect for by mentioning.

I feel that the chagrin is much more for the company that "almost killed the game". Some of their issues affected the fans (e.g. lamentable art, production schedules, massive product price increase (esp. UK hit by a weak pound then too)). Some issues were what sounds like the 'communication' issues between Chaosium and AH which soured the relationship and didn't support the development of a vibrant product line.

For me I cannot wait until Chaosium do a RQIII Kickstarter to get PDFs of the products and the missing few copies from that line like Cities (but not the abominations of DoD and Eldarad -- being a man of taste you surely cannot mean those too!?).

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1 hour ago, RosenMcStern said:

Ok, I know I will sound polemic (and obviously biased...) but I feel there is something that needs be said, at this point.

...

To the young player that I was at the time the main problem with the RQ3 boxed sets was that they were terribly pricey.

As for their play value, I think it varies a lot. Land of Ninja and Vikings were great, even if at the time I did not get how good is the campaign sketch included in Vikings (Now I think it is great!).

I found Griffin Island fascinating but sparse. When I finally acquired Griffin Mountain as a classic reprint I was "ah-ah" this was the real thing! And I had great fun playing pure sandbox with it. But that is recent history.

Part of the problem is that my younger self had grown a precocious narrativist with a penchant for over-the-top epics and drama. At the time the more dramatic feel of Stormbringer and Call of Cthulhu had more appeal for me in term of setting and scenarios. RQ3 for me was mainly a great ruleset. 

For instance, Monster Coliseum left me utterly perplexed. Also because it costed a fortune. Now, I think it's kind of cool. A great resource for a GM creating his own campaign.

I had the Genertela box and a few Gloranthan scenarios. Snakepipe Hollow seemed terribly old school at the time. I was like "OK I have already played the Caves of Chaos with D&D". We did not really start playing in Glorantha until "Sun County". That was really good stuff.

 

 

  

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2 hours ago, RosenMcStern said:

Ok, I know I will sound polemic (and obviously biased...) but I feel there is something that needs be said, at this point.

All I said was that it took Avalon Hill eight years to get round to producing any new Glorantha scenario material for RuneQuest, when they published my supplement Sun County.  

Yes, some of the scenario material they produced in the interim (e.g. Vikings, Land of Ninja) was excellent, it just wasn't Gloranthan.

2 hours ago, RosenMcStern said:

That Avalon Hill did not do what it was expected to do needs no further prove at this point. However, I am afraid that some statements that should have a limited applicability (they are valid only when there is a clear "for Glorantha" appended to them, apart from the obvious IMO) are slowly turning into general considerations; which turns them into false statements. I think the point needs to be stressed a little bit, so that it is clear and unambiguous that people are (legitimately) speaking from different points of view.

I disagree and am comfortable with the assertion Avalon Hill's stewardship of RuneQuest almost "killed the game". Remember, before they took it on RuneQuest was riding high crtically and commercially, second only DnD in sales. The Avalon Hill edition however was a commercial failure. The reasons why were cogently outlined in a memo to Avalon Hill itself long, long ago. This report ultimately helped spur the so-called "RuneQuest Renaissance" under Ken Rolston, which arrested the decline for a short while. The memo was later summarized into an article for Tales of the Reaching Moon, which if anyone is interested can be read here: http://rpgreview.net/mob/ruinedquest.html

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I'm with you MOB.

Prior to RQ3, Glorantha was RuneQuest. When RQ3 came out, it had conversion rules to bring RQ2 characters into RQ3, but it was virtually impossible to do so, since there wasn't any RQ3 Glorantha worth going to. We never got an RQ3 version of Cults of Prax, which was pretty much they key supplement to running a Glorathan-based campaign. Nor did we get any new campaign settings in the mold of Borderlands, Pavis, Big Rubble etc. What little Glorantha stuff that appeared for RQ3 was either a reprint or vastly inferior to what had been available for RQ2 (none of the various/numerous/useless RQ3 cult writeups held a candle to those from Cults of Prax or Cults of Terror).By the time anything new and useful for Glorantha came out for RQ3, there wasn't anyone still using RQ3 for Glorantha. Either they changed settings, switched back to RQ2, or moved on to another RPG.   

 

I wasn't even aware of Sun Country until around the time HeroWars (I.e. first edition HeroQuest) came out, say 2000. By then it was "too little, too late."

 

Sure all the other stuff was nice to have. RQ Vikings, IMO, was probably the best RQ3 supplement printed. But I would gladly have gone without it, or any of the other RQ3 supplements, if we could have gotten more new Glorantha stuff in a style similar to that published for RQ2 instead.

 

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To give another perspective when I was of an age for actually collecting Runequest products it was the RQ 3 line that was available. I collected products like Vikings, land of Ninja, & monster collesium. They were good, but very dry/dull in presentation, and not quite what I was lookfing for.

My experience of Runequest started with RQ2. My older brother Introduced me, and we played a lot. The Gloranthan rules were brilliantly pitched & full of flavour. It was exciting. The ancient feel was unique, and stirred my imagination. 

RQ 2 was the reason I bought into RQ 3 when I came of age. Unfortunately I never quite found that same inspiration in RQ3 products. As Mob said, eight years is a long time, without new Gloranthan material. Eight years was my period of gaming as a kid, an important formative time. I was looking for new Gloranthan inspiration, but the products weren't available. That important time passed me  by and I grew up. I think Avalon hill lost an RPG generation of gamers in that period. Particularly myself who experienced the excitement and flavour of RQ2, but who only experienced the possibility of buying Runequest 3 products.

When the Runequest Renaissance  happened I jumped on Sun County , shadows on the borderland, and Dorastor. The covers inspired that ancient fantasy feel I was looking for, and the Glorantha material was fantastic. The problem was I was no longer playing. Late teens meant that myself and my circle of friends were doing other things by this point. That big chunk of time, 8 years, was a  crucial period for my gaming development. I was a prime candidate for Runequest Gloranthan, but the RQ Renaissance happened a bit too late for me and my circle of gaming friends.

I've only recently started playing again on roll20. It says a lot about the hobby and its lasting appeal, that I'm able to jump back into the RPG world so many years later. Needless to say I'm really looking forward to finally buying a version of Runequet that I anticipate will inspired me like the original RQ2 rulebook did. 

 

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1 hour ago, RosenMcStern said:

Then RQ3 (but also RQ2) could certainly prove a frustrating experience for you, Andrea :)

Well, actually coming from D&D I loved Rune Quest's skills, lack of classes (everyone casts a little magic) AND the gritty and exciting combat system. I shouldn't have said "epics" perhaps. I meant grand narrative rather than super-heroes. It was more like fairly normal people being heroes against all odds (cosmic horrors, end of the world, etc.). The campaign I still admire the most is WFRP's "Enemy Within".

So the problem was not that RQ 2/3 was gritty. Rather it did not have its "Enemy Within" or "Masks of Nyarlatothep" or its "Rogue Mistress". I was more into "grand campaign" than "family-village-tribe growing up in a culture".  

 

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I disagree and am comfortable with the assertion Avalon Hill's stewardship of RuneQuest almost "killed the game".

Well, I'll be the counter-anecdote because I pretty much lived the phenomenon that MOB is talking about. In the 82-84 period I was running two RQ sessions a week. Sometimes more. We ran through Griffin, Borderlands, and Pavis/Rubble. At the time it was The Game that all the cool kids were playing, not to mention rambling on about in A&E and so on. I ran RQ3 once or twice and then basically dropped the system entirely. It wasn't what I was looking for. We moved on to CoC as our primary game. Honestly, I haven't run or been in a RQ or Gloranthan game since.

It wasn't just the support though. My general feeling were the changes were not for the positive and I found the multiple books difficult to work with. One can mark this as petty, but the physical product was poor and my first thought even today about RQ3 is "books made of tissue paper." 

 

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5 hours ago, jongjom said:

For me I cannot wait until Chaosium do a RQIII Kickstarter to get PDFs of the products and the missing few copies from that line like Cities (but not the abominations of DoD and Eldarad -- being a man of taste you surely cannot mean those too!?).

MOB can correct me if I'm wrong, but there's so much deep-seated dislike for nearly-anything-RQ3 in Chaosium combined with a healthy heaping of blinding rose-colored RQ2 nostalgia that I can't imagine RQ3 *ever* getting this treatment.

 

3 hours ago, MOB said:

All I said was that it took Avalon Hill eight years to get round to producing any new Glorantha scenario material for RuneQuest, when they published my supplement Sun County.  

Yes, some of the scenario material they produced in the interim (e.g. Vikings, Land of Ninja) was excellent, it just wasn't Gloranthan.

I disagree and am comfortable with the assertion Avalon Hill's stewardship of RuneQuest almost "killed the game". Remember, before they took it on RuneQuest was riding high crtically and commercially, second only DnD in sales. The Avalon Hill edition however was a commercial failure. The reasons why were cogently outlined in a memo to Avalon Hill itself long, long ago. This report ultimately helped spur the so-called "RuneQuest Renaissance" under Ken Rolston, which arrested the decline for a short while. The memo was later summarized into an article for Tales of the Reaching Moon, which if anyone is interested can be read here: http://rpgreview.net/mob/ruinedquest.html

You seem to be somehow missing RosenMcstern's point?  By the link you posted, Chaosium produced 5 box sets in 2 years.  AH produced 17 products in 1985-1990 (that report says 19 but I flat-out disregard the stupid money-grab that were the character sheet "supplements").  And let's point out - there were EIGHT products, including new Glorantha material, JUST in 1988.  Not specifically scenario material, no.  But it's splitting a pretty fine hair to say "no new Glorantha scenarios" for "eight years".  And that page is dated, not really discussing much (aside from your appended note at the bottom) about  Sun County, River of Cradles, Shadows on the Borderlands, Strangers in Prax, Dorastor and Lords of Terror - really what I was referring to as some of the best game-supplements I've ever seen.

Is it ironic to be cursing AH for spending so much time on reprints ... when Chaosium just took in $200k on RQ2 reprints, and is pretty much going back to the RQ2 well (again) and Dragon Pass (again) for RQ4...?  Aside from MRQ/MRQ2, Runequest has been nearly nothing BUT "reprints" since the AH days?  Hell, not to trivialize the astonishing amount of new content Jeff authored for the Guide, but c'mon - much of that was technically "reprint" material too? 

No, the direction they were going may not have suited you personally, nor Chaosium.  For that matter, who chose to sell them the rights to RQ but not Glorantha?  Was that their choice or Chaosiums?  If Greg held tight to Glorantha by his choice*, you can hardly condemn AH for failing to produce Gloranthan material?

*I genuinely don't know the case here.   Your link, and http://www.maranci.net/rqpast.htm both fail to explore that particular nuance of motivation?  If Glorantha RQ was flourishing so incredibly, why was the property sold to AH in the first place?  That seems...odd.   Not to mention, it's a little misleading to say "RQ was 2nd only to D&D commercially in 1983" and therefore somehow AH ruined it.  That's like saying I'd run second to Usain Bolt in a footrace.  Yes, I'd be second but it's not like "2nd place" meant "in any way close" in this context, at least in the US gaming market.  If we're talking about the 1983 RPG market, it was D&D....RQ ...and then somewhere way down the list, what else?  T&T? C&S?  If you're asserting that RQ somehow lost it's place marketwise, you can't really be asserting that either of those did any better?

In short, I don't think you've made an objective case for "didn't do what MOB wanted" = "almost killed the game".

I bear no torch for AH.  Hell, I'd have loved them to do a better job.  Do I think they didn't understand RPGs?  Absolutely.  I too was annoyed at their gross money-grabbing too.  Trollpak ended up in what, 4 different products?  RQ3 probably made as many blunders in adding too-complicated and klunky rules as it did cleaning up and improving the practically-indie-product that was RQ2.  There's plenty to criticize AH for in this context, full stop.

But it seems to me like there's a little rewriting of historical narrative going on here to somehow contrive to paint Chaosium as the victim.  "We were doing great and it was all rainbows and (non-Ralzakark) unicorns until that nasty big corporate AH came and wrecked everything because they didn't do what we hoped!"  I don't know why?  Wouldn't the true burden of that result fall on whomever made the choice to take such an allegedly-flourishing product and farm it to another company?

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