BRP book too late?

[Conrad]

Yes. BRP is better than D&D, and it's a good thing to say so at every opportunity. In this case it also helps us sympathise with Badcat, beleagured as he is in 'WotC Central' amidst blinkered D&D hordes. The main problem, as I understand it, is no-one will even try BRP there, so he can't run a game. I understand his frustration. If only we could engage the D&Ders in petty name-calling, then at least they'd see there's an alternative...

I agree BRP is a better gamesystem than any of the various different D&D rules.But that is only my opinion, and perhaps that of many of the people on this site. However calling D&D players "mindless" or "blinkered" isn't the most intelligent thing to do. What next, perhaps they are brain dead?

D&D is the most popular rpg going and will be so for a good long while. To gripe about it because it is more popular sounds more like sour grapes than reasonable argument.

Sadly BRP will never be more popular than D&D, no other gamesystem will. But there is always a niche for other games to be played. Rather than waste time and energy railing against the most popular rpg perhaps using that energy looking for a suitable group is the wisest thing to do.

Edited July 15, 2008 by Conrad

[frogspawner]

Rather than waste time and energy railing against the most popular rpg perhaps using that energy looking for a suitable group is the wisest thing to do.

Yes, you're right - our efforts are best spent organizing and running games, rather than griping. Railing against D&D is such fun, though - and so richly deserved, IMHO!

[badcat]

It has become a mindless habit, and it is mediocre.

That is my opinion, and I back off not one...tiny...iota.

It is also a fact that it is mindless and mediocre.

[badcat]

That stated, Ars, Talislanta/BRP? Start a new thread or what?

[GerallKahla]

I would like to see a Talislanta thread - Thanks!

[RosenMcStern]

Sadly BRP will never be more popular than D&D, no other gamesystem will.

Never say never.

Ten or so years ago I thought I would never see anything D100 again, BRP would become an obscure part of gaming history after CoC had been eaten up by Vampires, and Glorantha would fade away as a game world.

Now there are so many cool d100-related products coming out each month that I cannot get all of them (and some not-so-cool ones, but we'll pardon the writers), the HeroQuest trademark has gone back where it belonged, I am an official Issaries licensee (yep, you wouldn't believe why, but I am), the BRP system is finally shining as it should always have had to, I have self-published a d100 module and am playtesting the sequel, plus more juicy stuff that I cannot tell here because of the NDA. Things can change, it's just a matter of having faith.

:thumb:

[badcat]

I for one am trying. That was the purpose of my original post. I mean, if I can't get some comfort about it here, where else might there be?

Another thing is, I have a hunch that whether 4e is actually a rpg or not, it leaves a certain itch unscratched that games like Stormbringer and Talislanta can satisfy. It's just simply a different game experience. I'm going to do my level best it does not become the only one out there.

[vagabond]

Never say never.

Ten or so years ago I thought I would never see anything D100 again, BRP would become an obscure part of gaming history after CoC had been eaten up by Vampires, and Glorantha would fade away as a game world.

Now there are so many cool d100-related products coming out each month that I cannot get all of them (and some not-so-cool ones, but we'll pardon the writers), the HeroQuest trademark has gone back where it belonged, I am an official Issaries licensee (yep, you wouldn't believe why, but I am), the BRP system is finally shining as it should always have had to, I have self-published a d100 module and am playtesting the sequel, plus more juicy stuff that I cannot tell here because of the NDA. Things can change, it's just a matter of having faith.

:thumb:

Alas, it is true. No amount of faith will change that. Even if WotC folded up

D&D and went away, the installed user base and OGL d20 living on will still

make D&D the game that rules the roost. Given that it has had a lion's share

of the market since its release over 30 years ago.

You made the point yourself - CoC was eaten up by Vampires and others, but

they were all fighting for the scraps. D&D was only jostled a bit when Vampire

hit the scene, and the piss-poor mismanagement of TSR in the 90's opened

a huge opportunity for something like Vampire to push D&D off its roost. But,

it didn't happen, and D&D is stronger than before.

But, this isn't about knocking D&D off its pedestal, nor even taking it down a

few notches. Chaosium can, with BRP, grab some new players and gain new

life, and keep on moving along. As it has done for over 30 years - no other

RPG company has lived as long as Chaosium has. So, no, BRP is not too late.

It is just in time to do what it needs to do.

-V

[badcat]

Part of what I have been thinking is 'what if Chaosium had put this book out in the mid nineties?' I know the history pretty well too, so it is obviously wishful thinking. I can run a good game and that is what I have to rely on, when the time comes. I know that's what it boils down to. It has, ever since part of our group split off from the original D&D group way back to try a new game called RuneQuest...in that sense nothing much has changed in over three decades, now.

[RosenMcStern]

Part of what I have been thinking is 'what if Chaosium had put this book out in the mid nineties?' I know the history pretty well too, so it is obviously wishful thinking. I can run a good game and that is what I have to rely on, when the time comes. I know that's what it boils down to. It has, ever since part of our group split off from the original D&D group way back to try a new game called RuneQuest...in that sense nothing much has changed in over three decades, now.

RuneQuest has been #2 in the RPG industry in the 80s, and has influenced other game systems almost as much as D&D did: think of how much WH Chaos owes to Gloranthan Chaos. So yes, BRP can do the job if backed by big support (Avalon Hill had to do this in the '80s, and... well, let us close a curtain on this sorrowful story).

The question is what could have happened if Chaosium had put put out this book in the mid eighties, just before GURPS was born. Look at what a flaw-ridden (Passive Defense :lol: ) system, derived from the most crappy game ever designed (and boys, you gotta play TFT or you will not believe it) by a self-styled game designer whose only virtue is an ego as big as the Himalaya, could do because it was the only game system which claimed to be "universal" and received a decent game support over the years.

Now think of BRP appearing at the same time, derived not from "The Fantasy Travesty" but from RQ and CoC. That was the timing that BRP really missed.

(Okay, calling D&D players names is not fun for me. Mocking Steve Jackson is much better:rolleyes: )

[badcat]

Eighties OR nineties! Just SOONER. I don't know about changing history, but I would have been happier.

RosenMcStern, after we couldn't initially figure out how to play D&D (blue cover) my first group went to TFT. WE had a lot of fun with it, and it was a dream to understand and play after hit dice/points, reverse AC and no damage reduction, what do you roll for damage?, etc. etc. See, no matter what game you love somebody comes along and 'bad mouths' it. Difference is, I don't care, you are as free to say that as I am to slam 3e+. Sorry you don't like TFT, it's one of my favorites and I have many fond memories of it. I agree about GURPS though. Never much wanted to play it, wouldn't try to run it. I don't despise it like I do 3e+, though.

[Atgxtg]

Oh there are a lot of games that were designed worse than TFT. KABAL, Spawn of Faschan, and a host of others. TFT wasn7t bad by compasion-especially since it was orginally designed as some stand alone solo games that were later expanded into a system.

And as for "self-styled game designer whose only virtue is an ego as big as the Himalaya", there are quite a few of those around. Heck, from what I had heared about Gary Gygax, an "ego as big as the Hymalayas" is probably modest by comparison.

I think Jacosn is a good game designer. It is just that he hasn't really done much designing since his MEtagaming days.

As far as "what Ifs?" go, I think all us longterm Chasoium fans have the same basic thought-What might have been if Chasoium had dome some things differently. Chasoum was a very innovative company and might have reamined a big player in the industry IF they had done some things different, and IF some other things had gone differently.

But, as the Avalon Hill deal proved, the end result isn't guaranteed. SUre, Chasoium had a "Univeral System" that they adapted to multi0plesettings, but would the D100/RQ/BRP system had been as successful as GURPS if BRP had been relased 10 or 20 years ago? Probably not. Worlds of Wonder was realsed back then and it didn't shake up the gaming world. As has been mentioned before, the majoirty of gamers play D&D, and they generally don't notice things until they get incorpated into D&D.

I know some local D&Ders who thought things like the AC being the number needed to hit (from Thieves Guild) or skill ratings (from games like RQ) were stupid ideas, until they were incorpated into 3E, and then they became wonderful ideas.

[Atgxtg]

Hey, Aycorn. Can't find anyone around here interested, been trying for a while. The advent of this new edition will make it harder, I am afraid, and produce expectations I am not willing to emulate. I think it is just a matter of me marching to a different drummer than anyone else around me...and I happen to live in WOTC central headquarters, so the influence seems to be stronger in the eye of the storm...

I know the feeling. Apparently this is a US thing. From what I've been told, in Europe D&D isn't quite as dominant as it is in the States. In my area finding D&D players is easy, but finding players forother games is considerably more difficult.

[PK Games]

What is TFT?

[cjbowser]

What is TFT?

The Fantasy Trip. A game Steve Jackson wrote for Metagaming Concepts before founding SJG and creating GURPS

[Simlasa]

We loved The Fantasy Trip back in the day... played a ton of Melee and Wizard.

I don't think I've ever heard anyone speak ill of it till now...

[Atgxtg]

The Fantasy Trip was originally released as Melee and Wizard, two games of Metagaming's pocket sized game line. These had very smmall rulebooks (about half the size of a folded sheet of paper).

Because of the games success, "advanced" (revised and expanded) versions of Melee and Wizard were created, along with "In the Laberith" (a GM guide , setting, and beastiary), with the three books being dubbed "The Fantasy Trip". Theese books were full sized, but thin, and that is by the standard of the day.

TFT was very simple. Characters had 2 stats ST, DX and IQ.

ST determined what sort of weapons you could wield, carry capacity, stamina, and how much damage a character could sustain.

DEX was used to hit in combat, as well as for feats of manual coordination or agility.

IQ determined how many, and what type of talents known, perception, and what spells could be learned.

THe game was farily simple, being a bit more complex than T&T (Tunnels & Trolls) while being much simpler than D&D or AD&D. One thing that TFT had going for it that many other RPGs lacked was that each stat was important for each type of character. ST no only represented hit points and how big a weapon one could lift, but also was used to power spells. DX was used for targeting spells as well as weapons. IQ was needed not only to lean magic spells, but also talents related to combat.

[NickMiddleton]

I had loads of fun playing Melee and Wizard and we did play TFT a bit, but by the time my brother had the full set of TFT books (Advanced Melee, Advanced Wizard and In The Labyrinth we were both more in to RQ and Stormbringer. IIRC he lifted the TFT/AM magic system as one of the (preposterously numerous) magic systems in his Eb-Kluash setting.

I have a set of the TFT books on the shelf behind me.

Cheers,

Nick

[fmitchell]

We loved The Fantasy Trip back in the day... played a ton of Melee and Wizard.

I don't think I've ever heard anyone speak ill of it till now...

Same here. I fondly remember a TFT campaign I was in at college.

Really, the only critique I have of TFT is that, by today's standards, it's too small and limited. "Dark City Games" has reverse engineered some rules in small, free PDFs, and extended the system to Science Fiction and Westerns ... but at it's heart it's mainly a combat system with a few noncombat abilities grafted on.

You could always add more bells and whistles to TFT, but then you'd have GURPS.

Back to BRP (sort of): after playing FATE and PDQ, I find games with fixed statistics like BRP (and GURPS, D&D, etc.) somehow too old-school. It's about the lightest-weight old-school game I know, but there's something compelling about a concise description of how a character departs from "average", rather than a sheet filled with primary stats, derived stats, and every skill a character could potentially use.

[badcat]

I'm sorry, and maybe I'm being dense, but I don't see how BRP doesn't describe well how a particular PC or NPC 'departs from average'. Can you clarify?

[RosenMcStern]

Ah, there IS a game system that can spread more emotional responses than D&D if insulted here, then!

Sorry, it is just that I have been exposed to much more "oh how simple TFT was" than to "oh how wonderful D&D is" than your average gamer. Anyway, TFT is fine only if compared to D&D, for sure.

And as for "self-styled game designer whose only virtue is an ego as big as the Himalaya", there are quite a few of those around. Heck, from what I had heared about Gary Gygax, an "ego as big as the Hymalayas" is probably modest by comparison.

Hmm, I also know one Greg guy that...

But no, there is no Gygax Games or Stafford Games in the market. And one year ago both were still gaming and having fun (hope Gygax is still having fun where he is now), whereas, as you said, Jackson is just enjoying our money somewhere.

But, as the Avalon Hill deal proved, the end result isn't guaranteed. Sure, Chasoium had a "Univeral System" that they adapted to multi0plesettings, but would the D100/RQ/BRP system had been as successful as GURPS if BRP had been relased 10 or 20 years ago? Probably not.

Possibly. GURPS was successful because it had lots of supplements above its pile of c**p, not because it was good. Heck, I know legion of TFT-lovers (other than those on this list) that would not touch it with a 10-yard long pole.

[Jason D]

But no, there is no Gygax Games or Stafford Games in the market.

Greg begs to differ.

[threedeesix]

First let me say...

My name is Rodney Leary... and I'm a TFTer.

Ok, now that thats out of the way.

I think the release of 4th ed. D&D is a good thing. I was co-owner of a hobby store before the release of D&D 3.0 and while role playing games were still being sold, they were only about 33% of our business. New people just weren't getting into the hobby.

Then D&D 3.0 releases and we literately sold over 300 copies of the player’s handbook in the first 3 weeks. This big name rpg re-infused the hobby, bringing in a literal ton of new players. D&D brought them in the door, but eventually, they get board and want to see what else is out there.

With the increase in RPG interest we saw increases in Call of Cthulhu, GURPS, WOD, etc etc.

This is a choice time for BRPers. Renewed interest in the hobby as a whole is a good thing. Don't attack a game they love and expect them to flock to BRP because it’s better. If something you love is attacked you tend to attack back out of respect for your beliefs.

Instead, use this opportunity to talk about BRP and what makes it different (and better).

For example:

D&Der: My paladin is 15th level.

BRPer: The game I play doesn't use levels.

D&Der: How do you know if your character can kick another characters ass?

BRPer: Just like real life, two boxers don't have 'levels' floating over their head. One kicks the others ass because he's better.

D&Der: Well you could gauge how much better one is then the other because of how many experience points they have.

BRPer: Oh, my game doesn't use experience points.

D&Der: ....

BRPer:....

D&Der: Then... how do... you get better at climbing walls and stuff?

BRPer: You don’t get better at climbing walls by killing goblins, you get better at climbling walls, by climbing walls.

D&Der: You got an opening in your game?

Like I said, I think this could be a good opportunity for BRP.

Rod

[Simlasa]

D&Der: Then... how do... you get better at climbing walls and stuff?

BRPer: You don’t get better at climbing walls by killing goblins, you get better at climbling walls, by climbing walls.

Even World Of Warcraft (what 4e seems to be emulating... kind of) doesn't tie all your skills to 'levels'... if you want to raise your mining/herbalism/engineering/etc... you have to mine/herbalize/engineer/etc.

Somehow RosenMcStern's vitriol toward Mr. Jackson and his games makes me suspect some past romantic liaison that went badly... or something.

[badcat]

If you are commenting on my original post, threedeesix, bear in mind that I am the one reacting as you describe. And only here, in a place I feel about halfway comfortable with expressing how I feel. That day in the gamestore I just walked away. Believe me, that was not a time to discuss how BRP or anything else might be a better choice for gaming. Which is part of what really, really bugs me. I do not tell anyone they are stupid because of a game choice, although I might tease someone about such a choice; and of course that has been taken out of context by others occasionally, even on this forum. As for 4e or 3.5 being good for the hobby as a whole, and particularly tabletop rpgs of the kind I enjoy? I don't agree with that.