Jump to content

Recommended Posts

Rewriting the Vingkotling history surely is getting way off-topic here.

I suggest each of us prepares a position paper and presents it in a separate thread. Right now there are more wild theories floating about than I am willing to handle.

 

Otherwise, the exchange is going to look like more of this:

2 hours ago, metcalph said:

Has it ever occurred to you that the so-called daughters of Vingkot might be mere names backlformed by skalds from the Tribal Names to create a spurious connection to Vingkot? 

 

Has it ever occurred to you that both the Entekosiad and the Glorious ReAscent of Yelm aren't any better than the tribal myths of the first Heortling tribes?

Plentonius is a master of conjecture who has little more written sources than inscriptions of imperial names in masonry. Murharzarm is an invention of his, and Antirius is an invention of that street sweeper Avivath who sunspeared horse emperors with the power of Hastatus. The identification of the underworld star Tolat as a son of Yelm is an invention of his, replacing the green planet of Alkor. Plentonius has the Dawn in YS 11100, during the reign of Son of Evil, missing 100 years of History in his text.

I might be able to cram a few more more or less flawed pet theories into this...

Edited by Joerg
Hastatus, not Sagittus. Has to be the more phallic version of the stick with pointy object on the tip.
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Joerg said:

I suggest each of us prepares a position paper and presents it in a separate thread. Right now there are more wild theories floating about than I am willing to handle.

Prepare a paper?

I thought this was just a game, not an academic exercise.

 

Otherwise, the exchange is going to look like more of this:

 

But it usually ends up like this, with two people picking each other posts aparts, refuting opinion with opinion.

Has it ever occurred to you that both the Entekosiad and the Glorious ReAscent of Yelm aren't any better than the tribal myths of the first Heortling tribes?

The Glorious ReAscent of Yelm is both historical and mythic, but I think is mostly useful.

The Entekosiad, on the other hand, is deeply suspect. It seems to be a paper on a Lunar HeroQuestor's attempt to prove something and everything is coloured by that attempt. It is interesting and challenging, but I would not want to say that anything in it is factual. I am sure that a lot of it is, but many of the conclusions drawn are very iffy indeed.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, soltakss said:

...

Prepare a paper?

I thought this was just a game, not an academic exercise.

...

In fact reading some of the discussions in these forums I'm not so sure about that ... :) ... but anyway in most cases I admire the knowledge of some of the veteran Glorantha sages.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, Oracle said:

In fact reading some of the discussions in these forums I'm not so sure about that ... :) ...

Brings back the good old days of the Glorantha Digest! ;)

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Joerg said:

 

Quote

Has it ever occurred to you that the so-called daughters of Vingkot might be mere names backlformed by skalds from the Tribal Names to create a spurious connection to Vingkot? 

Has it ever occurred to you that both the Entekosiad and the Glorious ReAscent of Yelm aren't any better than the tribal myths of the first Heortling tribes?

Um, yes as a matter of fact it has.  In the post that you were responding to, I actually wrote:  

Quote

 As pointed out before Urvarinus has been attributed to two epic deeds that belong to somebody else (Brightface and Daxdarius).  The myth of the Emperors of Dara Happa have been filtered through the unscrupulous hand of Plentonius.  Likewise the Good People of Alkoth have a actual myth in which Murharzarm banishes the Heortlings to the south, the (Horse) Nomads to the east and the Carmanians to the west (and the anachronisms are not errors)

All we can say is that in the Middle Storm Age the Dara Happans in their Septopoli peiod lost a city of Elempur to the Ram People, probably acting under the leadership of Varnaval.  An Iron Ram was involved, possibly as a battering ram to break down the walls of Elempur.  The Story of the making of the Army and the revenge exacted upon them has been attributed to Urvarinus.  Unless we were to see a myth of about how the Sons of Vingkot brought an Iron Ram to battle in their fight against Dara Happa, we can not attribute the destruction of Elempur to them.

It is my belief that all myths are of suspect historicity being warped by the attitudes and biases of their composers (Plentonius, Valare Addi, whoever composed the Vingkotling sagas etc) just as real world mythology is.  There are many things they do not understand (When did Vingkot die?  Who killed YarGan?  Who is buried in the Jewelled Vault?) and the wrong answers they interpolate to explain these discrepancies are glaringly clear signs that the myths are dubious history at best.

When the myths describe the events central to them (such as the raids of the Sons of Vingkot), they are at their strongest historically and at the same time, the discrepancies between them and the common understanding of that age are also the strongest (Where is Beren?  Why do none of Vingkot's daughters appear?).  Where the myths describe events that are ancillary to them (such as the description of Heort's ancestors in a myth about Heort's deeds), the material is filler and most closely harmonised to the orthodox wisdom not matter how erroneous that would be (Korol Kandoros is described as dying before Vingkot because the skald composing the mtyh thinks that Vingkot died fighting Wakboth at Stormfall which is well after Korol's death).

Your problem IMO is that you accept the Orlanthi myths as being of equal truthfulness in described an ideal Orlanthi culture and warp foreign myths into such strange contortions (Jorganos sacked Elempur) to conform with them.  Until you consider looking at the Orlanth in terms of, say, archeological change as Greg has done for Dara Happa and Pelanda, then your reconstructions will continue to be flawed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Soltakss said

Prepare a paper?

I thought this was just a game, not an academic exercise.

 I think you will find that the various games are in other sections (Runequest, Heroquest etc), whereas this is the Glorantha section, which is, when all is said and done, a continuation of Greg's anthropological academic exercise. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Ali the Helering said:

 I think you will find that the various games are in other sections (Runequest, Heroquest etc), whereas this is the Glorantha section, which is, when all is said and done, a continuation of Greg's anthropological academic exercise. 

but ... ducks.

You are refuted.

By Humakti bearing the Truth rune, no less!

:D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, g33k said:

but ... ducks.

Ah, but we have a perfectly good set of ancient debates in the Great Temple of Knowledge on the ancestry of Ducks! ;)

http://glorantha.temppeli.org/digest/gd5/1997.08/0740.html

And not to forget Soltakss' various 'anthropological' ('anatopological'?) articles at: http://www.soltakss.com/indexmisc.html#Ducks

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Ah, but we have a perfectly good set of ancient debates in the Great Temple of Knowledge on the ancestry of Ducks! ;)

http://glorantha.temppeli.org/digest/gd5/1997.08/0740.html

And not to forget Soltakss' various 'anthropological' ('anatopological'?) articles at: http://www.soltakss.com/indexmisc.html#Ducks

Indeed!

Nor can we forget these ducks (no matter how hard we try ... )   !

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, g33k said:

but ... ducks.

You are refuted.

By Humakti bearing the Truth rune, no less!

:D

The majestic Durulz are an example of a misunderstood race, despised and rejected for no other reason than speech pattern and external appearance difference.

Consider - a strange creature with flappy extremities, bizarre mode of speech, and a tendency to explosions of rage.  Ladies and gentlemen, I give you - the Donald!

Making Sartar great again.....

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, soltakss said:

At the risk of igniting something very bad, there is a thread at rpg.net about rolplaying in Disney's Duckburg.

Am I the only person who envisions going into that thread with a Durulz + UplandMarsh POV, blithely assuming complete intercompatibility?

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎9‎/‎1‎/‎2016 at 2:43 PM, Steve said:

Wow. What are you planning on doing with this when it's done, Martin? Are you going to publish it?

And it's 'finished' at 288 pages.

Two draft hardbacks (with much marking up as it was my first opportunity to read it on paper) with two Chaosium staffers; my copy marked up; two draft copies in a box.

Bits and pieces may appear in the future. The entire thing? I suspect it wouldn't be commercially viable.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Bits and pieces may appear in the future. The entire thing? I suspect it wouldn't be commercially viable.

I'm sure it would have viability as a PDF and print-on-demand item. Fingers crossed, and well done Martin.

 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


×