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3 hours ago, metcalph said:

Sorry for misspelling Selenteen.

As for there being no sign of any significant Teshnan contact, that falls in the same category as the curious incident of the dog in the night time.  It's just down the river!

My guess is that the Solitude of Testing is an artefact caused by the deliberate forgetting of large periods of Sun Dome history considering that it's embarrassing to the current priesthood (betrayal of fellow light worshippers, Teshnan debauchery and a nightmarish occupation).  Only in the lists of the High Priests would one find hints at the real story.

 

 

The "Secret History of Sun County" contends the Teshnan contact happened at the very tail end of the Solitude of Testing, but it is something the current regime wants to forget. Hence the ban on Light Sons wearing "women's" clothing, etc. 

Edited by MOB

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4 hours ago, metcalph said:

As for there being no sign of any significant Teshnan contact, that falls in the same category as the curious incident of the dog in the night time.  It's just down the river!

Well, no. The Closing pretty much prevented any communication by sea (945?-1580) between the Zola Fel and Teshnos and in his expedition in 1250 Selenteen seems to have travelled across the Wastelands. Given hostile Animal Nomads and the hazards of the Feethos River, significant travel and trade between Teshnos and Prax and points westward seems unlikely, except by sea and until Dormal, there was no sea travel. Any Teshnan outpost in Prax was isolated, and if it only lasted forty or fifty years at most, it seems more likely it would have been influenced by the larger Sun County population to the north than the other way around.

4 hours ago, metcalph said:

My guess is that the Solitude of Testing is an artefact caused by the deliberate forgetting of large periods of Sun Dome history considering that it's embarrassing to the current priesthood (betrayal of fellow light worshippers, Teshnan debauchery and a nightmarish occupation).  Only in the lists of the High Priests would one find hints at the real story.

Yet little Sun County history seems forgotten, given the list of Counts, many of whom were nomads you'd expect to be written out of history. Much of the history, with its catalogue of bad Counts who seized power, murdered the incumbent, including brothers, etc. is highly embarrassing to a cult with its foundations of truth and honour, but it hasn't been expunged.

Debauchery seems improbable; Sun County seems to tend towards the Dara Happan Yelmian gender culture than anything else - and it has its own Ulerian priesthood. The Ulerians of Sun County and Pavis seem to be a distinctly local phenomenon, given that the Ulerian cult is fairly rare in southern central Genertela. I suspect the Uleria cult survived through the Isolation in Sun County. So if they survived, then a tradition of Teshnan dancing 'celestial maidens' would have as well.

I must admit to being highly doubtful of anything sourced from Monrogh. He may have founded (or re-founded) the Sun Dome Temple in Dragon Pass, but the temples in Prax and Saird had been active for centuries before he was born, and don't seem to have forgotten which god they worshipped. Perhaps he indulged too much in hazia?

Edited by M Helsdon
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1 hour ago, MOB said:

The "Secret History of Sun County" contends the Teshnan contact happened at the very tail end of the Solitude of Testing, but it is something the current regime wants to forget. Hence the ban on Light Sons wearing "women's" clothing, etc. 

An amusing conceit, but obviously a slanderous and scandalous account spread by a Darkness worshipper!

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8 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

Yet little Sun County history seems forgotten, given the list of Counts, many of whom were nomads you'd expect to be written out of history. Much of the history, with its catalogue of bad Counts who seized power, murdered the incumbent, including brothers, etc. is highly embarrassing to a cult with its foundations of truth and honour, but it hasn't been expunged.

So, by virtue of the "criterion of embarrassment" (which Christian apologists use to content that the Bible must be true, e.g. the weird story of Jesus angrily cursing the fig tree), everything in the Light List is the unvarnished truth. 

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3 minutes ago, MOB said:

So, by virtue of the "criterion of embarrassment" (which Christian apologists use to content that the Bible must be true, e.g. the weird story of Jesus angrily cursing the fig tree), everything in the Light List is the unvarnished truth. 

In some of the Gnostic gospels you'll find far worse than that as I'm certain you know...

The Light List is written as a Gloranthan document, so its veracity has to be taken as potentially suspect.

However, little or nothing in the 'objective' background text in either the Pavis boxed set or your Sun County seems to contradict it. I note, for example, that in the most recent Wyrms Footnotes one article using a Gloranthan document from the Jonstown Compedium declares that the Yelmalio cult was exported from Vanntar, whilst the very next article cites northern Sun Dome Temples active and predating Monrogh.

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6 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Well, no. The Closing pretty much prevented any communication by sea (945?-1580) between the Zola Fel and Teshnos and in his expedition in 1250 Selenteen seems to have travelled across the Wastelands. Given hostile Animal Nomads and the hazards of the Feethos River, significant travel and trade between Teshnos and Prax and points westward seems unlikely, except by sea and until Dormal, there was no sea travel. Any Teshnan outpost in Prax was isolated, and if it only lasted forty or fifty years at most, it seems more likely it would have been influenced by the larger Sun County population to the north than the other way around.

 

In the map on the Guide to Glorantha, Selenteen's Landing is quite expansive in territory reaching as far as the Five Eyes temple and the Senitel on the shore.  It's significantly buigger than the Uz-controlled Rubble whereas Sun County is not even shown as an independent state.  Judging by area alone, it Sun County has 19,000 people then Selenteen's Landing should be over 30,000.  

As for how it was settled, coastal sea travel remains a possibility (hell even Sheng Seleris was brave enough to send a fleet which almost made it to Vormain).  Given that Teshnos was trading with Sartar in Saronil's time (King of Sartar p190 has Teshnan merchants in Boldhome in 1535 ST - a good half century before the Opening), I wouldn't be so dismissive about there being no trade or travel between Teshnos and the west before the Closing.

 

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Yet little Sun County history seems forgotten, given the list of Counts, many of whom were nomads you'd expect to be written out of history. Much of the history, with its catalogue of bad Counts who seized power, murdered the incumbent, including brothers, etc. is highly embarrassing to a cult with its foundations of truth and honour, but it hasn't been expunged.

Obviously the Priests who created and maintained the Light List are willing to undermine the Counts by pointing out the bad deeds of their successors.  You can't find any similar list about the more worthy High Priests, can you?

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39 minutes ago, metcalph said:

 

In the map on the Guide to Glorantha, Selenteen's Landing is quite expansive in territory reaching as far as the Five Eyes temple and the Senitel on the shore.  It's significantly buigger than the Uz-controlled Rubble whereas Sun County is not even shown as an independent state.  Judging by area alone, it Sun County has 19,000 people then Selenteen's Landing should be over 30,000.  

If you are referring to the map on page 140, I suspect the area on the map is the area he searched and explored, not the area of his colony. Most of the terrain is inhospitable and unsuitable for agriculture. In the Third Age it would not sustain a large population. The lower regions of the Zola Fel are not pleasant.

 

39 minutes ago, metcalph said:

As for how it was settled, coastal sea travel remains a possibility (hell even Sheng Seleris was brave enough to send a fleet which almost made it to Vormain).  Given that Teshnos was trading with Sartar in Saronil's time (King of Sartar p190 has Teshnan merchants in Boldhome in 1535 ST - a good half century before the Opening), I wouldn't be so dismissive about there being no trade or travel between Teshnos and the west before the Closing.

The presence of a few merchants does not denote significant trade or widespread travel - the presence of Marco Polo and a few monks in China did not indicate major trade between China and Europe. There's little to no evidence of cultural exchange between Teshnos and Prax or even the Holy Country during the Closing.

Edited by M Helsdon

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1 hour ago, metcalph said:

Obviously the Priests who created and maintained the Light List are willing to undermine the Counts by pointing out the bad deeds of their successors.  You can't find any similar list about the more worthy High Priests, can you?

Given that Sun County is basically an authoritarian theocratic state, there's little evidence of serious political rivalry between High Priest and Count. There's no list of High Priests at all - the absence is probably more to do with page count than political machinations?

Edited by M Helsdon

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3 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Given that Sun County is basically an authoritarian theocratic state, there's little evidence of serious political rivalry between High Priest and Count.

The Old Sun Dome Temple scenario in RQ3's "Sun County" describes one such dispute at the time of the Dragonkill War, which led to murder and the old temple being purged by flame and abandoned. But yes, in general, I think the High Priest is not a political figure. Their main role in politics is to validate the appointment of whoever is count. If they feel they can't or won't do that, a retirement tower awaits - with or without their eyes.

But in the contemporary time-line, there are in fact two disputing counts who each have their own High Priests, one having incinerated his rival's predecessor with draconic fire magic. 

3 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

There's no list of High Priests at all - the absence is probably more to do with page count than political machinations?

Which raises the question, in whose reign did the current Light List come into being? It could be a relatively recent thing, part of the personality cult instituted by Solanthos after he overthrew the Varthanis dynasty.

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7 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

If you are referring to the map on page 140, I suspect the area on the map is the area he searched and explored, not the area of his colony. Most of the terrain is inhospitable and unsuitable for agriculture. In the Third Age it would not sustain a large population. The lower regions of the Zola Fel are not pleasant.

The terrain being talked about not only sustained the Teshnans, it also sustains Corflu (a recent settlement but still 1000 strong) and sustained Feroda (which is bigger than Corflu but not as big as New Pavis - Pavis: Gateway to Adventure p304) and Kitoy in the Dawn Age (Pavis and Big Rubble p17).  It is unsuited to nomads but not to sedentary farmers. Teshnos in particular has several inhabited swamps - such as the Tesho Marsh.

The region is being shown as controlled, not merely explored (the territory searched and explored by Selenteen would be far larger even if it would be encounters like: Selenteen:  Have you seen or heard of a Red Sword? Nomads:  No, we have not.  What is this Lost Calm you speak of?).  On other maps, the territory is shown as being controlled or under the influence of the EWF and the Empire of Sheng Seleris.

 

7 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

The presence of a few merchants does not denote significant trade or widespread travel - the presence of Marco Polo and a few monks in China did not indicate major trade between China and Europe.

If the Teshnan merchants are described as being seen in Boldhome then that's significant trade (note: significant trade does not mean major).   They are mentioned in the same sentence as the Tanisorans who have a known trade-route to Boldhome then and whose presence would not be controversial.  The fact that Teshnan merchants are making it across the Wastes in the absence of a central authority granting them safe passage indicates the route was doable.  

7 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

There's little to no evidence of cultural exchange between Teshnos and Prax or even the Holy Country during the Closing.

Selenteen's Landing was around 1250 ST and gone by the arrival of the Selerans who arrive in the region as early as 1362 ST.  In that time (1313 ST to be precise), a blue-skinned demigod swims ashore at Kethaela and overthrows the Only Old One.  Now it just so happens that the Teshnans were originally settled by the Loper People, a blueskinned tribe from Fonrit.  Little to no evidence?  That's quite a claim.

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7 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Given that Sun County is basically an authoritarian theocratic state, there's little evidence of serious political rivalry between High Priest and Count. There's no list of High Priests at all - the absence is probably more to do with page count than political machinations?

The Byzantines (whom MOB borrowed for their political stories which he then pumped full of steriods for use in Sun County) had a Patriarch and an Emperor who belonged to the same faith.  There was serious political rivalry there.  

The absence of the High Priestrs list proves my point.  The High Priests are more august than the Counts and so should be reckoned as the real heads of state in Sun County.  Despite this, the kids are *not* being taught their names.  My feeling as to why there is no list is that many of the High Priests were declared of damnable memory and expunged from the record.  People can only get a hint of what might have happened through additions to the lists of Prohibitions over time (5th edition No smoking Hazia!  No wearing Red!  No multiple marriages!)

 

 

 

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29 minutes ago, metcalph said:

The Byzantines (whom MOB borrowed for their political stories which he then pumped full of steriods for use in Sun County) had a Patriarch and an Emperor who belonged to the same faith.  There was serious political rivalry there.  

The absence of the High Priestrs list proves my point.  The High Priests are more august than the Counts and so should be reckoned as the real heads of state in Sun County.  Despite this, the kids are *not* being taught their names.  My feeling as to why there is no list is that many of the High Priests were declared of damnable memory and expunged from the record.  People can only get a hint of what might have happened through additions to the lists of Prohibitions over time (5th edition No smoking Hazia!  No wearing Red!  No multiple marriages!)

I believe the priests rightly look after matters spiritual and the counts are responsible for temporal affairs. Each are equally important to ensure the continued existence of the state, isolated and impoverished as it is. Tensions occur when they interfere in each other's domains.  

The high priest is described as only using Firespeech. This certainly gives them a status that is holy and august (though more than a few would be of damnable memory). But is the role of the count to deal with all external matters and day-to-day affairs, and to an outsider, the count will be seen as the "head of state". However, I do believe that a count's decision could be appealed to the high priest (if you know Firespeech).

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50 minutes ago, MOB said:

I believe the priests rightly look after matters spiritual and the counts are responsible for temporal affairs. Each are equally important to ensure the continued existence of the state, isolated and impoverished as it is. Tensions occur when they interfere in each other's domains.  

The high priest is described as only using Firespeech. This certainly gives them a status that is holy and august (though more than a few would be of damnable memory). But is the role of the count to deal with all external matters and day-to-day affairs, and to an outsider, the count will be seen as the "head of state". However, I do believe that a count's decision could be appealed to the high priest (if you know Firespeech).

The one difference here would be the Yelmalians of the Praxian tribes. They don't have Light priests, so to them the High Priest at the Sun Dome Temple is the highest and most important figure. Through their cultural lense, the Count has a status something like that of a tribal khan (Khan of Yellow-Hairs, or Sun Folk), nothing more.

Edited by MOB

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37 minutes ago, MOB said:

I believe the priests rightly look after matters spiritual and the counts are responsible for temporal affairs. Each are equally important to ensure the continued existence of the state, isolated and impoverished as it is. Tensions occur when they interfere in each other's domains.  

This current situation, I feel, has arrived in Sun County after a long period of trial and error testing.  In Dragon Pass, I note that the High Priest is also the Count (Wyrms Footnotes #15) indicating that the Yelmalions there have not the institutional wisdom to keep the twin powers of count and high priest separate.

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I am quite curious to hear any stories about the nomades at Sun County.

I did expect ostrish riders and other minor tribes as Yelmalion worshippers, but now Sables and Impala are represented in force.

Obviously, most of them would come to Sun County on Holy Days or High Holy Days. And probably along with families and herds...

that creates a massive event: a "market" and multi/tribal gathering of thousands of tents, bigger than the permanent town!

And local farmers may worship at local shrines I guess: do they also see groups of nomads?

So in the middle of Fire season, there could be serious strains on water supply (even if impala and sables are small, they drink).

 

Also, the political and military aspect can't be minor: at Moonbroth, the Lunars received help from the Sables (and not the Impalas...). IIRC Sun County remained neutral: to avoid taking side against the Yelmalion sables?

not to mention personal bonds: "Boy, for your initiation, you'll go to the Other Side with that small impala child. Don't shame us! Support each other in the face of the Sun!"

In the 90´s I somehow perceived Sun County as an isolated, xenophobic, authoritarian theocracy. But the picture doesn't fit any more. They are far more integrated to Nomad Prax than I thought...

 

@MOB @David Scott

did you co-work on this already?

Edited by Patrick

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Unless, of course, Yelmalion Nomads don't worship through Sun Domes.

Not canon of course, but MRQ strikingly gave the same magic and positions to Elmali and Yelmalions, except the former didn't have any priests.

Are priests really necessary?

(runs away from the crowd of farmer-soldiers who shout "Burn the heretic!"...)

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6 hours ago, Patrick said:

I did expect ostrish riders and other minor tribes as Yelmalion worshippers, but now Sables and Impala are represented in force.

They've always been there. The base information is in Cults of Prax. There's an appendix with % cult membership per tribe. The new numbers are based on this chart. For some reason this info has been pretty much ignored.

Quote

Obviously, most of them would come to Sun County on Holy Days or High Holy Days. And probably along with families and herds...

that creates a massive event: a "market" and multi/tribal gathering of thousands of tents, bigger than the permanent town!

And local farmers may worship at local shrines I guess: do they also see groups of nomads?

So in the middle of Fire, there could be serious strains on water supply (even if impala and sables are small, they drink).

I dont see Nomad Yelmalio worship this way. Firstly it's an intertribal society, so groups will be mixed tribe or single tribe. Initiates have no need to visit, but khans certainly do. Using the 1% magic rule there are about nomad 150 light khans. They likely only visit every 5-10 years, like Paps visits. Certainly not as a huge group. This keeps everything manageable. There are certainly prohibitions laid down by Sun County and the nomads for precisely the reasons you mentioned. There is also the security aspect. The outnumbering may cause problems and take overs would happen. And clearly they haven't. All khans including light khans have the prohibition about staying in houses so that would be one reason not to take over.

Quote

Also, the political and military aspect can't be minor: at Moonbroth, the Lunars received help from the Sables (and not the Impalas...). IIRC Sun County remained neutral: to avoid taking side against the Yelmalion sables?

The sables are split in to 5 phratries (once there were more). Two are pro-lunar, one neutral and two conservative. So it's more complicated. I'm not sure Yelmalio sables fought at Moonbroth, they would have been opposing Yelmalio impalas. I suspect yelmalions on both sides sat it out.

Quote

In the 90´s I somehow perceived Sun County as an isolated, xenophobic, authoritarian theocracy. But the picture doesn't fit any more. They are far more integrated to Nomad Prax than I thought...

I don't think that has really changed. There are just a few groups of tolerated nomad yelmalions dropping by every so often. They don't get involved, they pay their respects, do the rituals and go.

Quote

 

@MOB @David Scott

did you co-work on this already?

Yes, stuff has been passing between us. It's important that our info matches, especially with the timeline extending to 1627. 

Edited by David Scott
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3 hours ago, David Scott said:

I don't think that has really changed. There are just a few groups of tolerated nomad yelmalions dropping by very so often. They don't get involved, they pay their respects, do the rituals and go.

The native Sun Domers are leery about any large groups of nomads entering their lands, even fellow Yelmalians. In the past (check out the Light List) opportunistic nomad Light Khans actually ruled the roost in Sun County several times. It never ended well.

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Ok, I understand better.

However, it sort of leads to the idea that Light Khans can actually perform some ceremonies, doesn't it?

I don't want to tie anything to a rule system, but holy day ceremonies are not only a cult requirement; they also provide magical benefits (which have a lot to do with choosing a minority cult, at least among the nomads).

especially: what about new initiations?

If I spread 12000 initiates every 40 years, I get some 60 initiations per season. If these guys come to the Sun Dome to be initiated, we get an order of magnitude quite different from the 3-4 Light Khans hanging around (and that's on top of them, of course).

not overthrowing the city, but still making a very significant and very regular contact...

 

Maybe I'm wrong, but I can hardly believe 12000 Yelmalion nomads are dependant on a weird foreign settlement to run their cult.

(let alone asking whether some of them starting sun worship before the coming of Arinsor!)

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18 hours ago, MOB said:

But in the contemporary time-line, there are in fact two disputing counts who each have their own High Priests, one having incinerated his rival's predecessor with draconic fire magic. 

So I understand. When is your Sun County update likely to be published, please? It's very much an outline for a very dramatic campaign, but works as background 'history'.

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17 hours ago, metcalph said:

The terrain being talked about not only sustained the Teshnans, it also sustains Corflu (a recent settlement but still 1000 strong) and sustained Feroda (which is bigger than Corflu but not as big as New Pavis - Pavis: Gateway to Adventure p304) and Kitoy in the Dawn Age (Pavis and Big Rubble p17).  It is unsuited to nomads but not to sedentary farmers. Teshnos in particular has several inhabited swamps - such as the Tesho Marsh.

Corflu isn't much of a settlement (and reliant upon supply from upriver); Feroda was larger, but had supply from upriver or by sea. The Praxian marshes are particularly nasty. I can't see a Teshnan outpost being very much larger than Corflu.

 

17 hours ago, metcalph said:

The region is being shown as controlled, not merely explored (the territory searched and explored by Selenteen would be far larger even if it would be encounters like: Selenteen:  Have you seen or heard of a Red Sword? Nomads:  No, we have not.  What is this Lost Calm you speak of?).  On other maps, the territory is shown as being controlled or under the influence of the EWF and the Empire of Sheng Seleris.

It may have been claimed, but probably not controlled. I suspect the Teshnan patch is exaggerated to permit it to show up on the map.

 

17 hours ago, metcalph said:

If the Teshnan merchants are described as being seen in Boldhome then that's significant trade (note: significant trade does not mean major).   They are mentioned in the same sentence as the Tanisorans who have a known trade-route to Boldhome then and whose presence would not be controversial.  The fact that Teshnan merchants are making it across the Wastes in the absence of a central authority granting them safe passage indicates the route was doable.  

Unusual enough to be mentioned, but not denoting anything significant. I recall seeing an exquisite painting of a Mogul court - off to one side, far from the Emperor is a European in Elizabethan court dress - the ambassador from England. Worthy of mention, but not indicating any significant political or economic importance. At the time, Mogul India was rich and powerful; England was a distant and relatively poor European state.

 

17 hours ago, metcalph said:

Selenteen's Landing was around 1250 ST and gone by the arrival of the Selerans who arrive in the region as early as 1362 ST.  In that time (1313 ST to be precise), a blue-skinned demigod swims ashore at Kethaela and overthrows the Only Old One.  Now it just so happens that the Teshnans were originally settled by the Loper People, a blueskinned tribe from Fonrit.  Little to no evidence?  That's quite a claim.

The Lopers were from Pamaltela; they conquered Teshnos, briefly, but were not Teshnans; Teshnans aren't blue-skinned Veldang but Vithelans.

Edited by M Helsdon

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20 hours ago, MOB said:

Which raises the question, in whose reign did the current Light List come into being? It could be a relatively recent thing, part of the personality cult instituted by Solanthos after he overthrew the Varthanis dynasty.

Well, it must be updated whenever there's a new Count.

As it learned by all children, any other changes are going to immediately be detected by anyone old enough to have learned an earlier version. Despite the nature of the Sun County regime, it is unlikely that any rewriting of history is going to be easily accepted (the Temple doesn't seem to include a Ministry of Truth) so any blatant updating is going to cause at the very least disquiet and a questioning of authority. The governance of Sun County is authoritarian and fairly autocratic, but it isn't Stalinist.

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2 hours ago, Patrick said:

(let alone asking whether some of them starting sun worship before the coming of Arinsor!)

I don't pretend to any depth of knowledge regarding Praxian religion but...

The original Sun God of Prax was Splendid Yamsur, Son of the Sun, deceased in the Great Darkness (not to be confused with the hero Yamsur the Splendid, deceased in the Dragonkill hmm...) and there are Solar spirits such as Sun Hawk, one of the three Feathered Rivals.

I would not be surprised if, in Prax, there isn't a link between the Praxian Sun Hawk and the Yelmalion Vrimak, but @David Scott would know if this were so.

 

Edited by M Helsdon

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I wonder what happens to Nomad Yelmalions with the geas "never let a horse suffer", or "never eat meat". Do they join the nomad equivalent of the Cackhanders? Or does nomad Yelmalio have another set of geasa?

The religion is not dependent on the Sun Dome temples. The Sun Dome is there all day long (at least with sufficient use of Cloud Clear).

Yelmalio/Tharkantus is a syncretic religion, including all manner of minor local solar deities, or recruiting their worshippers. Probably including Teshnan Somash, Elmal, Ralian Ehilm, elven Halamalao, Rinliddic Vrimak, Golden Bow, Sun Hawk, and Yamsur.

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