Sun Dome Temples

[David Scott]

9 hours ago, metcalph said:

Lastly Yelorna first appears in Tarinwood according to http://www.glorantha.com/docs/safelster-in-the-first-age/

I don't see this as a first:

"Yelorna – when Arkat and his army of Brithini threatened Tanisor and the prophets of Nysalor, the elves revealed “The Light in Darkness,” whose worshippers were all women. A cult of unicorn riding virgins served the goddess and defended Hrelar Amali against Arkat and his army of sorcerers."

More like a revelation that they had a secret force and here it is. Although Hrelar Amali would be an ideal location for the cult to originate from.

[David Scott]

12 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

As Ourania/Urania is one of the nine Muses in Classical Mythology, specifically the Muse of Astronomy, she'd be the patron of the Star Gazers?

Pole Star is the primary spirit of the Star Gazers, followed by all the other spirits that came down from the Sky in the Great Darkness to help people survive. Nether Yelmalio or Yelorna  did this, they are Invader Deities. Yelorna and Yelmalio's significance can be seen by comparing cult membership numbers for Praxians:

Sky Gazer society 20500 (men & women)

Yemalio 14500 (men)

Yelorna 300 (Women)

@metcalph & @M Helsdon, I'm interested in your discussion about who Yelorna is in the night sky. My source for Yelorna = Ourania is of course @Jeff.

[metcalph]

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

I don't see this as a first:

"Yelorna – when Arkat and his army of Brithini threatened Tanisor and the prophets of Nysalor, the elves revealed “The Light in Darkness,” whose worshippers were all women. A cult of unicorn riding virgins served the goddess and defended Hrelar Amali against Arkat and his army of sorcerers."

More like a revelation that they had a secret force and here it is. Although Hrelar Amali would be an ideal location for the cult to originate from.

In the Broken Council Guidebook (caveats about canonity), Yelorna was the sister to the four sons of Eneral (Vustr, Korion, Uton and Fornao).  Either way, she could have hid among the elves of Tarinwood during the Great Darkness and still be associated with Hrelar Amali.  

[Tindalos]

10 hours ago, metcalph said:

Foundchild doesn't always have a bow and I have a feeling he would be hunting in the Celestial Desert rather than the Celestial Forest. Perhaps the Thasus constellation.

Ah, found a reference in the guide, where the constellation tells the story of Foundchild hunting the Silver Deer (probably related to the Deer constellation in front of him.)

I imagine the bow part of the constellation is seen as a spear by many cultures, including spear using Praxians.

As for his position, there's very little to hunt in the Celestial Desert, it's full of monsters and not anything good to eat. The forest (likely a Celestial Hidden Green to the Praxians) is full of fertility. It's a good place to hunt in the sky, because there's actually celestial animals to hunt there.

[M Helsdon]

2 hours ago, David Scott said:

 

@metcalph & @M Helsdon, I'm interested in your discussion about who Yelorna is in the night sky. My source for Yelorna = Ourania is of course @Jeff.

Until your revelation I'd assumed that Yelorna was one of many 'Star Captains' who came to Earth to aid their worshippers in the Great Darkness. I'd puzzled over what her celestial star or planet might be but come to no conclusion.

Equating her with Ourania makes the genealogy of the Sky/Solar deities even more tangled, though it is possible that all the Gloranthan divine genealogies have been created by the worshippers or God Learners attempting to project a discernable pattern to the relationships of their gods.

Jeff is, of course, a God Learner... 8-)

[M Helsdon]

11 hours ago, metcalph said:

I don't think Yelmalio is Antirius.  Antirius is a more fiery god capable of giving out sunspears.  I derive Antirius from Ent - Turos, (Right Turos, cf Entekos).  In other words, Antirius is a manifestation of Turos as the upholder of Righteous Order.

There is an association with the Sun Dome Temples and Antirius (Avivath sees the first Sun Dome temple to Antirius in Kestinaddi) but that's a style of temple and one that does not proceed directly from Antirius.  It was used for Daysenervus in Saird because Saird was a place of the Amalgram deities in which various religious influences were imported and synthesised  Daysenervus' magics would be related to what Daysenervus did at the Sunstop.

Yelmalio and Daysenerus

 

From: Greg Stafford

Date: Tue 25 Jun 2002 - 19:23:07 EEST

 

>From: Peter Metcalfe
>>Daysenerus is its name as a messenger God of Antirius. I should not cling to
>>my own self-styled view to Yelmalio as a Martyr / Scapegoat.
>
>He may have been revealed to the Dara Happans at the Battle of
>Night and Day but Yelmalio did exist before that time and did
>participate at the Hill of Gold.

Yes, he did.
Daysenerus is the First Age name of the god moderly known as Yelmalio. He may even be the same god as Antirius.

http://glorantha.temppeli.org/digest/gd9/2002.06/0597.html

Of course this isn't definitive, but nothing in Glorantha is...

[M Helsdon]

The map seems to have triggered a discussion touching on things I hadn't imagined. This is a good thing.

I generated the map because in my free time (which has been very limited in the last two or three months) I've been attempting to write a sourcebook for warfare primarily in central Genertela as a personal project. This has so far collected material by Greg Stafford, Sandy Petersen, Jeff Richards, Ian Cooper and Michael O'Brien as well as my own invention.

One section was an appendix on the Sun Dome Temples. Whilst a minority cult in all but Saird and its temple-towns, the cult has been involved in almost every conflict since it was founded, sometimes on both sides. Below is the section on the early history, which requires some rework due to material I've received recently.

 Throughout the entire region of central Genertela, including the Lunar provinces, there are no more than fifteen major temples during the Hero Wars period.

 

In the First Age, the God of the Sun Dome Temple was called Hastatus, God of the Spear (sometimes equated with Avivorus) or Antirius, the Dara Happan God of Order.

 

Golden domes are a defining feature of the Sun Dome temples. The temple-fortress to Manimat and Antirius at Haranshold originally built in the First Age also boasts several gold domes. The city of Kesium is now best known for its golden-domed temple to Antirius, built by the Bright Eagle Lords of Rinliddi in the Dawn Age of Peloria.

 

The first temple complex in the style of the later Sun Dome Temples was built by Kestingatha of Kesium, one of the Bright Eagle Lords. His temple of Antirius, a golden dome set atop a square base, was completed sometime between 145 and 155.

 

Mahzanelm, an Emperor of the Khordavu Dynasty, conquered Rinliddi and Vanch around 345-350. The Dara Happans sought to ensure that the barbarian lands could be kept under their control. The Emperor commissioned the construction of a grand structure that would be both temple and a military enclave for his troops. This temple was in the form of a dome within a walled compound entered via a stepped walkway.

 

One of the settlements the Emperor destroyed during his southern campaign was Lolon, inhabited since the Dawn. This was the home of the Tunoraling hunter-gatherers who worshipped Heliacal the Sun and his wife Negalla the Green Woman.

 

After the First Theyalan War (366-368), more of the Dara Happan-style Sun Dome Temples were built – one was even built atop the ruins of Urar Baar (a troll trading place at the confluence of the Oslir and the Black Eel rivers). These were similar to the earlier temple built by Kestingatha, being set on a square base, which was now consecrated to Hastatus, the spear god. In all, five Sun Dome Temples served as Dara Happan military anchors to keep the rebellious Theyalans under the control of the High Council.

 

It was at the Battle of Day and Night in 379 that the constructed god Nysalor revealed Daysenerus - an aspect of Antirius who brings Antirius’ Justice to the barbarians - to be the deity of the Sun Dome Temples. Daysenerus’ first deed when invoked was to crush the army of Kyger Litor and his first new temple was built upon the site of that victory.

 

During the years that followed, new Sun Dome Temples dedicated to Daysenerus were built throughout the lands occupied by the Bright Empire.

 

The Daysenerus cult was given good lands confiscated from rebellious Heortlings after the Theyalan Wars. The military might of these enclaves supported the rule of the Bright Empire. However, their association with Nysalor proved to be their downfall. When Arkat raised the Heortlings in their final successful rebellion, vengeful Orlanthi and their troll allies destroyed every Sun Dome Temple they encountered and eradicated the name Daysenerus from Peloria.  

 

According to Monrogh of Sartar, a dubious source, Sereventh in Sylila was the only temple to Daysenerus to survive the destruction of the Bright Empire. Other sources claim it was used by Ordanestyu in his Cold Light Fires Uprising and to revive the culture of Dara Happa after the fall of the Bright Empire.

 

Edited June 18, 2016 by M Helsdon

[Tindalos]

26 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

Until your revelation I'd assumed that Yelorna was one of many 'Star Captains' who came to Earth to aid their worshippers in the Great Darkness. I'd puzzled over what her celestial star or planet might be but come to no conclusion.

Equating her with Ourania makes the genealogy of the Sky/Solar deities even more tangled, though it is possible that all the Gloranthan divine genealogies have been created by the worshippers or God Learners attempting to project a discernable pattern to the relationships of their gods.

Jeff is, of course, a God Learner... 8-)

I think it may be more that Yelorna and Ourania both fulfil the same mythic role as the Virginal Queen of Heaven. The Dara Happans just don't view the Queen of Heaven as a martial figure, unlike other cultures.

I'm personally assuming that First Council era cult of Yelorna originated with the Berenethtelli Horse Orlanthi of Saird. A celestial rider (on a horse-like beast) and sister to the Sun Rider who married Redaylda the Earth Mare. Her worshippers spread with the Council, uniting with similar cults across Genertela, and spreading their traditions and their name for the Celestial Queen.

[M Helsdon]

12 minutes ago, Tindalos said:

I'm personally assuming that First Council era cult of Yelorna originated with the Berenethtelli Horse Orlanthi of Saird. A celestial rider (on a horse-like beast) and sister to the Sun Rider who married Redaylda the Earth Mare. Her worshippers spread with the Council, uniting with similar cults across Genertela, and spreading their traditions and their name for the Celestial Queen.

According to Orlanthi traditions, Beren (aka Hyalor) was a foreigner, possibly from Nivorah, and his wife is Redaylda, the Horse Goddess, Vingkot's daughter by the Winter Wife (Other traditions assert that Redaylda is the wife of Elmal). The curious similarity in name between The Dara Happan Reladivus (the Overseer of Nivorah, the mythical city in Saird), and Redaylda is intriguing. Perhaps Beren was descended from one of the Eight Celestial Sons of Yelm or some other Solar god.

The fact that Yelmalio has been the divine defender of Mirin’s Cross since the Second Age, but its tribal guardians are Redaylda and her husband Hyalor suggests a very strong link between Yelmalio and the horse cults, especially as riding was associated with Yelmalio in the Second Age and is still apparent in cult geases. As Yelorna is described as Yelmalio's sister or half-sister, and is also a riding deity, there's probably an association with Saird and other horse cults in Saird.

I wonder who Mirin was?

 

12 minutes ago, Tindalos said:

I think it may be more that Yelorna and Ourania both fulfil the same mythic role as the Virginal Queen of Heaven. The Dara Happans just don't view the Queen of Heaven as a martial figure, unlike other cultures.

The Dara Happan culture is very patriarchal, and some aspects of Lunar culture seem to be a reaction to that. Earlier write-ups placed Yelornan regiments in the Dara Happan army, but I doubt these are canonical now as it doesn't fit with the more recently published material.

Edited June 18, 2016 by M Helsdon

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

I wonder who Mirin was?

My early Sairdite work suggested that the Mirinae were a 2nd Age tribe dwelling in the area named after an earlier figure named Mirin.  However, Jeff and I had a fair bit of discussion on the topic and the last we left off, these were our general conclusions:

• Mirin was a lieutenant of Alakoring who learned the secret of where to cross the Black Eel river
• Mirin overcame and captured a notable EWF leader in a battle of might and magic, and then crucified the important EWF notable here (hence the "Cross" instead of "Crossing").  From the list of the Dragons defeated by Saird (was one of Greg's old Myths of the Month items that I helped work on - not sure if still accessible), the Heart of Gold was a dragon which lurked in a golden tower in Mirin's Cross and may have been the EWF leader involved.
• Mirin subsequently claimed the city/site for his own and after the Cross was removed, he built an impressive monument here to mark the spot of his great duel.
• Imagery on each side showed Mirin's four great deeds.  The monument was topped with Mirin's image as well, though that's long gone now and much of the imagery has worn away.  But the monument (and city) has been popularly called Mirin's Cross since (though it's had a range of names over the years).

 

Edited June 18, 2016 by jajagappa

[jajagappa]

3 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Mirin's Cross

Speaking of Mirin's Cross, here are my working maps for the site during 1st, 2nd (pre-Verenmars), and 3rd (current) Ages.  You'll note the varied changes in the river courses around the nearby hills and growth of the city.  It has expanded considerably over the last 40+ years as the center of the Lunar Provincial Admin.

 

[M Helsdon]

39 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Speaking of Mirin's Cross, here are my working maps for the site during 1st, 2nd (pre-Verenmars), and 3rd (current) Ages.  You'll note the varied changes in the river courses around the nearby hills and growth of the city.  It has expanded considerably over the last 40+ years as the center of the Lunar Provincial Admin.

 

Nice.

 

I'd suggest that you need at least two Second Age maps of Domanand: before and after the EWF conquest.

 

Before: many 'Sun Domes' probably arranged in a circle.
After: one Sun Dome temple, and the ruins of many other domes - their ruins are still apparent in the modern city.

And perhaps also After: fall of EWF.

 

Elsewhere, Domanand Resistance
c. 640.
Domanand is established (modern City of Mirin’s Cross) in Saird, and soon dominates the surrounding area. This is at the edge of the EWF core, and was built as a stronghold against dragons and their followers. Its unique enclosed domes with antidragon temples upon their surface were unique, and provided a center of resistance for the Traditionalists for a long time. At last the domes were broken of course, and though their ruins are apparent in the modern city, they are not intact.

http://www.glorantha.com/docs/history-of-dragon-pass-in-the-second-age/

 

The Guide says of Mirin's Cross in the Third Age: The city boasts Dara Happan towers (greatest being the Golden Temple of the Brilliant Pillar), Sun Dome temples, the great Lunar Temple of the Provincial Church, and a Temple of the Reaching Moon.

 

I'd also expect there to be temples to Redaylda and her husband Hyalor in the Second and Third Age, and perhaps to Yelorna in the Second Age, pre-EWF conquest.

Edited June 18, 2016 by M Helsdon

[M Helsdon]

Another chunk of my 'history'...

During the ensuing period of troll and Heortling domination of southern Peloria, the other Sun Dome Temples were relit by the prophet Severinalus the Rekindler. Severinalus named the god Tharkantus, the Empty Saving Hearth, prepared for the darkness to come. He settled many temples, for many places prepared once again for the time that the fires all went out. Tharkartus was later recognized to be the same entity as the Elvish Sun god, Halamalao, and in many places the two races shared worship for centuries.

 

It was perhaps during this period that the god of the Sun Dome Temples was also given the name Yelmalio, possibly the Theyalan pronunciation of the Elvish name or as a title. Whilst the cult had its origins in the Solar cultures to the north, its presence on the borderlands with the Storm cultures to the south resulted in an increasing intermingling of the two traditions. What began as a title gradually supplanted the northern name.

 

In 562 a Sun Dome Temple was founded in Holay. Trolls resisted the construction but met with disaster when a trollkin lieutenant betrayed the attack because the White Women among the Sun Domers had treated him kindly.

 

Circa 640 another was established at Domanand (modern Mirin’s Cross) in Saird at the edge of Orlanthland, built as a stronghold against the dragons and their followers. It boasted unique enclosed domes with anti-dragon runes upon their surface, and despite its Solar nature provided a center of resistance for the Orlanthi Traditionalists against the Draconic Orlanthi to the south for a long time. The city of Lolon was also rebuilt.

 

Initially, the cult of Yelmalio fiercely resisted the rise of the Kingdom of Orlanthland from their city of Domanand and spearheaded armies invading the upland regions.

 

Saird became a battleground between Domanand and Orlanthland, which was transforming into the Empire of the Wyrms Friends. But by 750 the EWF conquered Saird; the gold domes of Domanand were shattered - their ruins are still apparent in the modern city. The Lament of Domeland, composed by several poets who survived the catastrophe, recalls the fall of the city.

 

The EWF revealed the Draconic Sun to the survivors. The Sun Dome Temples subsequently became a major military arm of the empire with their soldier-cultists used as mercenaries. Many new temples to Yelmalio were established on the frontiers of the EWF in Fronela, Ralios, and near Pent and in its core lands in Dragon Pass. Another was built at Hesterneo in Esrolia, later destroyed by Queen Orenda.

 

Dara Happa was occupied by the EWF in 850 after its Emperor was killed by elite members of the Golden Dragon Society.

 

In 877 the first Arrowsmith king of the city of Pavis in Prax requested aid from the Sun Dome Temple in Dragon Pass against the trolls and giants. The mercenaries were granted lands to the south of the city. A new Sun Dome Temple was built on the edge of the Wastelands.

Edited June 18, 2016 by M Helsdon

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, M Helsdon said:

Nice.

 

I'd suggest that you need at least two Second Age maps of Domanand: before and after the EWF conquest.

 

Before: many 'Sun Domes' probably arranged in a circle.
After: one Sun Dome temple, and the ruins of many other domes - their ruins are still apparent in the modern city.

And perhaps also After: fall of EWF.

Thanks.

Agree that two 2nd Age maps really would be needed, possibly three (pre-EWF, EWF period, and Verenmars era).

I'm not sure that the Domes of Domanand need to be in a circle - I don't think they are necessarily 'Sun Domes' though perhaps they are.  There may well be other ritual patterns in use, particularly to invoke anti-Draconic powers.  Perhaps they fall into a pattern related to or to mirror the 2nd Age Sky.  There may well be dangers or vulnerabilities in attempting to recreate the Perfect Sky.

The 3rd Age map does show the few remnants of these ancient domes shown in pale grey.  Some of them were built over though such as the Dome of Verrogors.

1 hour ago, M Helsdon said:

The Guide says of Mirin's Cross in the Third Age: The city boasts Dara Happan towers (greatest being the Golden Temple of the Brilliant Pillar), Sun Dome temples, the great Lunar Temple of the Provincial Church, and a Temple of the Reaching Moon.

 

I'd also expect there to be temples to Redaylda and her husband Hyalor in the Second and Third Age, and perhaps to Yelorna in the Second Age, pre-EWF conquest.

Yes, you'll find quite a few DH towers on the 3rd Age map: Golden Temple of the Brilliant Pillar, the Twins, the Half-Dome Tower, and 7 Moon Tower.

I've only placed one main SD temple.  The High Temple was converted to the Citadel of the Seven Seals, part of the Lunar Admin.

Both the Provincial Church and the Temple of the Reaching Moon are present, as is the Temple to the Red Emperor and Red Goddess.

As for Redaylda, well you'll find her temple, but her husband there is Yelm the Rider. ;-) 

Of course, there is also Redaylda's Green across the Oslir, which is sacred to her.

[M Helsdon]

34 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

I'm not sure that the Domes of Domanand need to be in a circle - I don't think they are necessarily 'Sun Domes' though perhaps they are.  There may well be other ritual patterns in use, particularly to invoke anti-Draconic powers.  Perhaps they fall into a pattern related to or to mirror the 2nd Age Sky.  There may well be dangers or vulnerabilities in attempting to recreate the Perfect Sky.

Personally, I'd assume that domes are definitely a Solar architecture, especially given the evolution of Sun Dome Temples from earlier Solar temples. Some major earthworks forming the Sky Rune would also be possible, as the intent was to hold off dragons, and dragons are big.

34 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

The 3rd Age map does show the few remnants of these ancient domes shown in pale grey.  Some of them were built over though such as the Dome of Verrogors.

I noticed - I suspect if you had a more detailed larger scale map you'd find large portions used as walls by later buildings, or their circular foundations defining later construction. Believe there are a number of places in Italy where the site of amphitheaters is still apparent by curved roads and buildings.

Not far from where I live, the location of a Roman Mansio is still apparent -- or at least the earth platform it was built on - a marked sudden slope in a road. Many years ago, when a road nearby  was being excavated, the archaeologists allowed visitors and pointed out the black layer nearby marking where Boudicca came through. They also found a horse burial, an octagonal temple (quite small) and the baths associated with the Mansio nearby.

34 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

As for Redaylda, well you'll find her temple, but her husband there is Yelm the Rider. ;-) 

The Guide mentions Redaylda and her husband Hyalor being revered in Mirin's Cross, but makes no direct mention of Yelm. I'd expect a temple to Redaylda and Hyalor at Mirin's Cross.

Edited June 18, 2016 by M Helsdon

[jajagappa]

51 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

The Guide mentions Redaylda and her husband Hyalor being revered in Mirin's Cross, but makes no direct mention of Yelm. I'd expect a temple to Redaylda and Hyalor at Mirin's Cross.

There may be one to Redaylda and Hyalor as well, but it was one Jeff wanted.  Good for making us Gloranthaphiles think. :-)

[M Helsdon]

On ‎6‎/‎18‎/‎2016 at 11:45 PM, jajagappa said:

There may be one to Redaylda and Hyalor as well, but it was one Jeff wanted.

It doesn't make any sense...

Edited July 16, 2018 by M Helsdon

[Joerg]

13 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Nice.

 

I'd suggest that you need at least two Second Age maps of Domanand: before and after the EWF conquest.

 

Before: many 'Sun Domes' probably arranged in a circle.
After: one Sun Dome temple, and the ruins of many other domes - their ruins are still apparent in the modern city.

And perhaps also After: fall of EWF.

 

Elsewhere, Domanand Resistance
c. 640.
Domanand is established (modern City of Mirin’s Cross) in Saird, and soon dominates the surrounding area. This is at the edge of the EWF core, and was built as a stronghold against dragons and their followers. Its unique enclosed domes with antidragon temples upon their surface were unique, and provided a center of resistance for the Traditionalists for a long time. At last the domes were broken of course, and though their ruins are apparent in the modern city, they are not intact.

http://www.glorantha.com/docs/history-of-dragon-pass-in-the-second-age/

 

The Guide says of Mirin's Cross in the Third Age: The city boasts Dara Happan towers (greatest being the Golden Temple of the Brilliant Pillar), Sun Dome temples, the great Lunar Temple of the Provincial Church, and a Temple of the Reaching Moon.

 

I'd also expect there to be temples to Redaylda and her husband Hyalor in the Second and Third Age, and perhaps to Yelorna in the Second Age, pre-EWF conquest.

From the context in the History of Dragon Pass in the Second Age, the Sun Domers in Mirin's Cross may actually have been allies of the kingdom of Orlanthland - the previous paragraphs tell about the persecution of the draconic worshippers and their hiding in the fringes. The Traditionalists were of course the rulers of Orlanthland at this time. There was no EWF yet.

Still, the presence of anti-dragon defenses implies that at least some of the draconic masters had access to draconic manifestations or draconic allies.

We still have no clear data on the origin of the draconic race of wyrms. I wonder whether they may be a result of early human (and some dragonewt) efforts to achieve dragonhood through this cooperation? A presence of wyrms attacking the (then still ruling) traditionalists would certainly warrant special defenses as early as 640.

[metcalph]

7 minutes ago, Joerg said:

We still have no clear data on the origin of the draconic race of wyrms. I wonder whether they may be a result of early human (and some dragonewt) efforts to achieve dragonhood through this cooperation? A presence of wyrms attacking the (then still ruling) traditionalists would certainly warrant special defenses as early as 640.

Wyrms are reported as being ridden by the Scouts of Kartolin Pass in 146 according to Dorastor: Land of Doom p146.  Hence I think they originated in the Storm Age.

[Joerg]

11 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Personally, I'd assume that domes are definitely a Solar architecture, especially given the evolution of Sun Dome Temples from earlier Solar temples.

The oldest known dome building in Solar tradition was Manarlarvus's dome, which was basically the design of Anaxial*s Ark turned upside down to divide the approaching glacier like the Ark did the waters of the flood. I wonder whether these air assault shelters/flak constructs would reflect the ark architecture rather than the sky dome architecture.

11 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Some major earthworks forming the Sky Rune would also be possible, as the intent was to hold off dragons, and dragons are big.

Not really sure about that in the time before the Third Council. Full or at least Great Dragonhood was first achieved by Orlaront, if I read the EWF history correctly. The Great Dragon manifestations of Isgangdrang, Lorenkartan and the other well known draconic leaders from the Kotor Wars appear a lot later.

Dragons and lesser draconic beings (excepting the dragonewts, who don't appear to have participated in the human civil war against dragon worshippers) have flight, though. The question is whether fire-breathing wyrms are that different from thunderbolt-tossing wind lords, though.

I doubt that earthworks really would hinder a True Dragon-sized entity from attacking or entering. I have doubts about the Ring of Alkoth, except that it forms a boundary between the world of the Living and the Underworld.

Against flyers and long-necked giant draconic entities, an architecture of wards (think protective circles in summoning) might be more effective, creating magical wards that deflect any attackers. These may be buildings, but also processional roads or canals.

11 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

The Guide mentions Redaylda and her husband Hyalor being revered in Mirin's Cross, but makes no direct mention of Yelm. I'd expect a temple to Redaylda and Hyalor at Mirin's Cross.

I always associated the name Elempur with the name Elmal.

Where is the Hyalor as husband of Redaylda from? Your identification of Beren with Hyalor?

Redaylde Vingkotsdaughter married Beren the Rider. Redalda the horse-loving daughter of Orlanth (and presumably Ernalda) married Elmal. Both these events were the first foreigner marriage in Orlanthi myth, each being the reflection of the other in cyclical time.

Beren was a Hyaloring - one of the Pure Horse riders that roamed in Peloria. Apparently the Berennethtelli did not continue Pure Horse ways (herding only horse, no cattle or sheep) either, and indeed appear to have developed a taboo against eating horse meat except in the holiest sacrifices. I don't think that Beren was the person responsible for the taming of Hippoi after the damaging of the Hippogriff.

[jajagappa]

4 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

It doesn't make any sense...

The temple was originally that of Beren/Hyalor and Redaylda.  But Beren/Hyalor at this temple have acquired the attributes of Yelm the Rider due to Lunar influence.  This is closely tied to the old myth of Yelm the Rider/Hyalor Horsebreaker.  This is a key aspect of Lunar control of Saird.  This temple holds at least some of the key artifacts in support of Appius Luxius and may include:  the Lasso (or Rope or Lash) of Hyalor, the Golden Bit, the Bridle of Domination, the Fire-woven Blanket, and the Chariot of Lightfore. These artifacts suppress the sovereignty of Redaylda.

 

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

I wonder whether these air assault shelters/flak constructs would reflect the ark architecture rather than the sky dome architecture.

Interesting thought!

 

4 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

A bit like the chariot races in Nochet, long documented in ToTRM suddenly just... disappearing.

Not everything fits.  The Esrolians are not a horse-based culture.

 

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Against flyers and long-necked giant draconic entities, an architecture of wards (think protective circles in summoning) might be more effective, creating magical wards that deflect any attackers. These may be buildings, but also processional roads or canals.

We know that the Blue Dragon successfully penetrated the empire of Yelm/Murharzarm, so I'd expect such wards might be intended to deflect this approach.

[David Scott]

1 minute ago, jajagappa said:

 

4 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

A bit like the chariot races in Nochet, long documented in ToTRM suddenly just... disappearing.

Not everything fits.  The Esrolians are not a horse-based culture.

They have horses though. You don't need to be a horse based culture to have chariot racing. I've seen Ben Hur...

ToTRM wasn't all official is a better stance.

[jajagappa]

Just now, David Scott said:

ToTRM wasn't all official is a better stance.

That too! :-)

[Tindalos]

4 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

It doesn't make any sense...

The Guide isn't canonical now. I am bitterly disappointed.

It doesn't make you think, it makes you grind your teeth. A bit like the chariot races in Nochet, long documented in ToTRM suddenly just... disappearing.

It's important to remember that Beren and Hyalor are also subcults of Elmal, the solar horse riding god of the Orlanthi. The god itself probably hasn't changed, being known by its Sairdite true name; but when Saird was ruled by the Theyalans is also called Elmal, and when ruled by Pelorians is called Yelm the Rider.

It's like the mother of Redayla. The southerners call her Ernalda, the northeners call her Oria. The Sairdites know the proper name is Riyesta.

[M Helsdon]

14 hours ago, jajagappa said:

3 hours ago, Joerg said:

From the context in the History of Dragon Pass in the Second Age, the Sun Domers in Mirin's Cross may actually have been allies of the kingdom of Orlanthland - the previous paragraphs tell about the persecution of the draconic worshippers and their hiding in the fringes. The Traditionalists were of course the rulers of Orlanthland at this time. There was no EWF yet.

 

If you examine http://www.glorantha.com/docs/history-of-dragon-pass-in-the-second-age/ specifically:

c. 700. Saird ruled by “EWF”. (TFS)

So shows the map. BUT it is really a battle ground between the city of Domanand and the Kingdom of Orlanthland. While the Kingdom was still not called the EWF by/about this time, Obduran the Flyer or his faction is relatively strong. Dragons are active in the war.

You will find that Saird was an enemy of Orlantlanth in all its manifestations until it was conquered. As Domanand was the center of the Sun Dome and the center of resistance, it is apparent the Templars fought against the Orlanthi to the south.

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

Where is the Hyalor as husband of Redaylda from? Your identification of Beren with Hyalor?

Redaylde Vingkotsdaughter married Beren the Rider. Redalda the horse-loving daughter of Orlanth (and presumably Ernalda) married Elmal. Both these events were the first foreigner marriage in Orlanthi myth, each being the reflection of the other in cyclical time.

Beren was a Hyaloring - one of the Pure Horse riders that roamed in Peloria. Apparently the Berennethtelli did not continue Pure Horse ways (herding only horse, no cattle or sheep) either, and indeed appear to have developed a taboo against eating horse meat except in the holiest sacrifices. I don't think that Beren was the person responsible for the taming of Hippoi after the damaging of the Hippogriff.

The Guide to Glorantha:

Redaylda’s husband is another horse god, called Hyalor, or less commonly Beren.

Although Yelmalio has been the divine defender of Mirin’s Cross since the Second Age, its tribal guardians are Redaylda and her husband Hyalor.

The latter being in the Mirin's Cross entry.