M Helsdon Posted September 1, 2016 Author Share Posted September 1, 2016 18 minutes ago, metcalph said: I doubt that Sheng shares your views on what is strategically or logistically sensible. He conquered the Wastelands which are far more barren than the Elder Wilds. What Sheng wants is not some penny-pinching accountant telling him what would be a wise use of his resources - he has a mountain of accountant skulls for that - but secrets that he could use against the Kralori. Remote wastelands would be scouted because they are remote and likely to hold secrets. Yet the population of griffins survived... 19 minutes ago, metcalph said: The map that you refer to is dated 1450 ST, some 75 years after the Opili Tribe were badly mangled at the Battle of Quintus Vale. The then Opili Khan may have simply decided that occupying the Citadels and other places then was not worthy of his time. There's no indication the Opili ever occupied Balazar. 21 minutes ago, metcalph said: Sheng had Lionbirds and used them to devour the Red Emperor. according to Tales #8 (a post-canonical gregly article). I'm hence skeptical that he would be exterminating Griffins Lionbirds probably aren't griffins. My source for Sheng exterminating griffins is an email by Greg Stafford, cited above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted September 1, 2016 Share Posted September 1, 2016 18 hours ago, M Helsdon said: In the treatise on Gloranthan warfare I'm putting together (160+ pages now...) Wow. What are you planning on doing with this when it's done, Martin? Are you going to publish it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Helsdon Posted September 1, 2016 Author Share Posted September 1, 2016 16 minutes ago, Steve said: Wow. What are you planning on doing with this when it's done, Martin? Are you going to publish it? Hi Steve: probably not, there's quite a bit taken from copyright sources: Sources Primary Sources · The Guide to Glorantha · Sartar – Kingdom of Heroes · Sartar Companion · Pavis – Gateway to Adventure · Pavis boxed set · The Coming Storm · www.glorantha.com · Wyrms Footnotes · RuneQuest · HeroQuest Glorantha · King of Sartar · Dragon Pass board game Secondary Sources · Cults of Prax · Griffin Mountain · Borderlands · RuneQuest Companion · Gods of Glorantha · River of Cradles · Sun County · Strangers in Prax · Shadows on the Borderland The following were used to a lesser degree: · History of the Dara Happan Army · The Fortunate Succession · Esrolia: the Land of Ten Thousand Goddesses · Arcane Lore · Revealed Mythologies However, there's also a very great deal of new material, relating to fortifications, logistics, magic use, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Helsdon Posted September 1, 2016 Author Share Posted September 1, 2016 Current contents - in the process of being expanded, reorganized: Contents Introduction. 7 Sources. 7 Primary Sources. 7 Secondary Sources. 7 A Note on Terminology. 7 Gloranthan Warfare. 8 Troop Types. 8 Light Infantry. 9 Heavy Infantry. 9 Light Cavalry. 9 Heavy Cavalry. 9 Chariots. 9 Artillery. 9 Vexillae. 9 Flier. 9 Magical 9 Heroes. 10 Weapons and Armor. 10 Armor. 10 Animal Armor. 11 Weapons. 11 Lottery Swords. 12 Shields. 13 Runes, Weapons and Shields. 14 Helmet and Shield Decoration. 14 Masks. 15 Materials. 15 Unit Organization. 17 Militia. 17 Training. 17 Warband. 17 Mercenaries. 17 Equipment. 18 Training. 18 Terms of Service. 18 Regiments. 19 The Standard. 19 Composition. 20 Training. 20 Terms of Service. 21 Rates of Pay. 21 Regimental Rivalry. 22 Order of Battle. 23 Formations. 23 Shield-wall 23 Boar’s Head. 24 Components of a Shield-wall 24 Phalanx. 25 Schiltron. 26 Components of a Phalanx. 27 Cavalry Formations. 27 Line. 27 Wedge. 27 Rhombus. 27 The Charge. 28 Stand-off Attack. 28 Shock Attack. 28 Types of Cavalry. 28 Troop Types. 29 Infantry. 29 Cavalry. 29 Riding Animals. 30 Chariots. 32 Vexillae. 33 Artillery. 33 Heroes. 34 Fliers. 34 Warfare. 36 Pelorian Warfare. 36 Pelanda. 37 Dara Happa. 37 Carmania. 39 Lunar Empire. 40 Barbarian Belt. 42 Pentan Warfare. 43 Grazelander Warfare. 43 Orlanthi Warfare. 44 Praxian Warfare. 46 Duels and Individual Combat. 46 The Orlanthi Duel 47 The Humakt Duel 47 The Yanafal Tarnils Duel 48 The Yelmalion Duel 48 Combat Games. 48 Gladiatorial Contests. 48 Chariot Racing. 48 Dara Happan Races. 48 Shield Push. 49 Treatment of Prisoners. 49 Transport and Mobility. 51 The Campaign Year. 51 Sea Season. 51 Fire Season. 51 Earth Season. 51 Dark Season. 52 Storm Season. 52 Sacred Time. 52 Roads and Warfare. 52 Rivers and Warfare. 55 Terrain. 56 Movement Rates. 56 Fortifications and Siege Warfare. 59 Siege Weapons. 59 Dwarven Weaponry. 60 Elementals. 60 Magic. 61 Fortifications. 61 Walls. 61 Bastions. 66 Towers. 66 Posterns. 67 Gates. 67 Guardian Spirits. 69 Magic. 69 Other Defences. 70 Temple Defenses. 70 Warfare and Religion. 72 Magic. 72 Wyters and Patron Deities. 72 Magical Regiments. 72 The Runes. 73 Aspects. 74 War Gods. 74 Cavalry Gods. 76 Chariot Gods. 76 War Gods of the Lunar Empire. 76 Hastatus. 77 Hon-eel 77 Humakt. 77 Hwarin Dalthippa. 77 Kastok, Cavalry God. 77 Polaris, War God. 77 Saggitus. 78 Shargash, God of Destruction. 78 Urvairinus, Army God. 78 Yanafal Tarnils. 78 Yara Aranis. 79 Yelmalio. 79 War Gods of Saird. 79 War Gods of Tarsh. 79 War Gods of Sartar. 80 Babeester Gor. 80 Humakt. 80 Maran Gor. 80 Orlanth Adventurous. 80 Orlanth Thunderous. 81 Storm Bull 81 Yelmalio. 81 Plates. 82 Armies of Central Genertela. 87 Lunar Army. 87 Organization. 88 Command Standards. 88 Lunar Headquarters. 89 Lunar Army Corps. 89 Miscellaneous Titles. 89 Lunar Regiment Organization. 90 College of Magic. 91 Imperial Bodyguard. 92 Heartland Corps. 93 The Ten Wall Phalanxes. 93 Daxdarian Phalanxes. 94 Line Regiments. 94 Carmania. 95 Auxiliaries. 95 Eol 95 Hungry Plateau. 95 Char-un. 95 Lunar Allies. 96 Cavalry Corps. 96 Provincial Army. 96 Provincial Army Organization. 96 The Lunar Provinces. 97 Sartar Free Army. 98 Sartar Regiment Organization. 99 Orlanthi Standards. 100 Humakt’s Raven Banner. 100 Battle Banner of the EWF. 100 Sartar Magical Union. 100 Sartar Free Army. 101 The Sartar Royal Guard. 102 Sartar City Militia. 102 The Barbarian Horde. 102 Independents. 102 The Agimori of Prax. 102 Beastmen. 103 The Black Horse Troop. 103 Cragspider and her Allies. 103 Dragonewts. 103 Giants. 104 Grazeland Pony Breeders. 104 The Holy Country. 104 Calandraland. 105 Ditali 105 Esrolia. 105 God Forgot. 106 Heortland. 106 Shadow Plateau. 106 The Islands. 106 Mercenaries in Pavis. 106 The Pol-Joni 107 Praxian Animal Nomads. 107 Bison Tribe. 108 High Llama Tribe. 108 Impala Tribe. 108 Rhinoceros Tribe. 108 Sable Tribe. 108 Unicorn Tribe. 108 Zebra Tribe. 109 Queendom of Jab. 109 Sun Dome Temples. 109 Yelmalion Regiments. 110 Mo Baustra. 111 Vanntar. 112 Alda-Chur. 112 Tarsh Exiles. 112 The Telmori 113 Tusk Riders. 113 Hero Wars Army Lists. 114 Unit Descriptions. 114 Morale. 114 Lunar Army List. 114 Lunar Headquarters. 114 College of Magic. 115 Sister’s Army. 116 Imperial Bodyguard. 116 Heartland Corps. 117 Heavy Infantry. 117 Light Infantry. 119 Cavalry Corps. 121 Heavy Cavalry. 121 Light Cavalry. 123 Chariots. 123 Provincial Army. 124 Aggar. 124 Holay. 124 Tarsh. 125 Vanch. 127 Carmania. 127 Sartar Free Army List. 127 Sartar Headquarters. 127 Sartar Magical Union. 128 Sartar Free Army. 131 Heavy Cavalry. 131 Light Cavalry. 132 Heavy Infantry. 132 Light Infantry. 133 Sartar City Militia. 133 Barbarian Horde. 134 Independents. 136 The Agimori of Prax. 136 Beastmen. 136 The Black Horse Troop. 137 Cragspider and her Allies. 138 Delecti 139 Dragonewts. 140 The Dwarf of Dwarf Mine. 141 Giants. 141 Grazeland Pony Breeders. 142 Mercenaries in Pavis. 143 Queendom of Jab. 143 Sun Dome Templars. 144 Unicorn Tribe. 144 Tarsh Exiles. 145 Tusk Riders. 146 Appendices. 147 Sun Dome Temples. 147 The First Age. 147 The Second Age. 148 The Third Age. 150 The Great Harpoon. 151 The History of the Harpoon. 151 Recent History. 151 The Tribes of Sartar. 152 Old Hendriki 152 Sword Orlanthi 152 Axe Orlanthi 152 Dark Orlanthi 152 Yelmalio. 152 Light Orlanthi 152 Composition of the Sartar Free Army. 152 Lunar Regimental Founders. 153 Fazzur Wideread, the Greatest General of Glorantha 153 The Seshnelan Army. 157 Codes of War. 158 Crusades. 158 Seshnelan Army List. 159 The Kralorelan Army. 160 Army and Navy Quality. 160 Military Terminology. 163 General 163 Armor. 164 Weapons. 165 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted September 1, 2016 Share Posted September 1, 2016 You could publish it via Chaosium/Moon Design, e.g. on their website? Although of course you may choose not to do that. It just sounds very interesting and useful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Helsdon Posted September 1, 2016 Author Share Posted September 1, 2016 9 minutes ago, Steve said: You could publish it via Chaosium/Moon Design, e.g. on their website? Although of course you may choose not to do that. It just sounds very interesting and useful. I've posted small snippets here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Helsdon Posted November 25, 2016 Author Share Posted November 25, 2016 Spending most of my time proofreading the Glorantha Sourcebook. The contents of Rune Wars are now: Contents Introduction 9 Sources 9 Primary Sources 9 Secondary Sources 9 A Note on Terminology 9 Gloranthan Warfare 10 Troop Types 10 Light Infantry 11 Heavy Infantry 11 Light Cavalry 11 Heavy Cavalry 11 Chariots 11 Artillery 11 Vexillae 11 Flier 11 Magical 11 War Dogs 12 Heroes 12 Weapons and Armor 12 Materials 12 Manufacture 13 Attributes 14 Armor 14 Magical Armor 16 Animal Armor 16 Masks 16 Weapons 16 Lottery Swords 17 Shields 18 Runes, Weapons and Shields 19 Helmet and Shield Decoration 20 Unit Organization 20 Militia 20 Training 21 Warband 21 Mercenaries 21 Equipment 21 Training 21 Discipline 22 Terms of Service 22 Regiments 23 The Standard 23 Composition 23 Training 23 Discipline 25 Terms of Service 25 Rates of Pay 25 Regimental Rivalry 26 Warfare 28 Pelorian Warfare 28 Pelanda 29 Dara Happa 29 Alkoth Regiments 31 Carmania 32 Lunar Empire 32 Lunar Colonies 33 Dart Competitions 34 Barbarian Belt 35 Yelmalion Templars 35 The Horse Nations 36 Pentan Warfare 36 Grazelander Warfare 36 Pol-Joni Warfare 36 Orlanthi Warfare 36 Praxian Warfare 38 Duels and Individual Combat 39 The Orlanthi Duel 39 The Humakt Duel 40 The Yanafal Tarnils Duel 40 The Yelmalion Duel 41 Combat Games 41 Gladiatorial Contests 41 Chariot Racing 41 Dara Happan Races 41 Shield Push 42 Treatment of Prisoners 42 The Battlefield 43 Order of Battle 43 Infantry 43 Infantry Formations 43 Shield-wall 43 Phalanx 46 Cavalry 50 The Saddle 51 Riding Animals 51 Cavalry Formations 53 Line 53 Wedge 53 Rhombus 53 The Charge 53 Stand-off Attack 54 Shock Attack 54 Types of Cavalry 54 Cataphracti 54 Lancers 54 Mounted Archers 55 Javelineers 55 Dragoons 55 Fliers 55 The Saddle 55 Flying Animals 55 Orlanthi Fliers 56 Flier Tactics 56 Chariots 56 Vexillae 57 Artillery 57 Types of Artillery 57 War Dogs 58 Heroes 58 Transport and Mobility 60 The Campaign Year 60 Sea Season 60 Fire Season 60 Earth Season 60 Dark Season 61 Storm Season 61 Sacred Time 61 Roads and Warfare 61 Rivers and Warfare 64 Terrain 65 Movement Rates 65 Moon Boats 67 Fortifications and Siege Warfare 69 Siege Weapons 69 Dwarven Weaponry 70 Elementals 70 Magic 71 Fortifications 71 Walls 71 Bastions 76 Towers 76 Posterns 77 Gates 77 Crannogs 79 Giant Defenses 79 Guardian Spirits 79 Magic 80 Temple Defenses 80 Warfare and Religion 82 Magic 82 Wyters and Patron Deities 82 Magical Regiments 82 Lunar Magic 83 The Runes 83 Deities 84 Divine Aspects 84 Divination and Runes 84 War Gods 85 Cavalry Gods 87 Chariot Gods 88 War Gods of the Lunar Empire 88 Hastatus 88 Hon-eel 88 Humakt 88 Hwarin Dalthippa 88 Kastok 89 Polaris, War God 89 Saggitus 89 Shargash, God of Destruction 89 Urvairinus, Army God 90 Yanafal Tarnils 90 Yara Aranis 90 Yelmalio 90 War Gods of Saird 90 War Gods of Tarsh 91 War Gods of Sartar and Heortland 91 Babeester Gor 91 Elmal 91 Humakt 91 Maran Gor 92 Orlanth Adventurous 92 Orlanth Thunderous 92 Urox 92 Vinga 92 Yelmalio 93 War Gods of Esrolia 93 Argan Argar 93 Babeester Gor 93 Humakt 93 The Noble Brothers 93 Orlanth 93 War Gods of Prax 93 Jaldon Toothmaker 93 Storm Bull 93 Waha 94 War Gods of the Horse Nations 94 Golden Bow 94 Kargzant 94 The Four Winds 94 Plates 95 Armies of Central Genertela 100 Lunar Army 100 Organization 101 Command Standards 101 Lunar Headquarters 102 Lunar Army Corps 102 Miscellaneous Titles 103 Lunar Regiment Organization 103 College of Magic 104 Imperial Bodyguard 106 Heartland Corps 106 The Ten Wall Phalanxes 106 Daxdarian Phalanxes 108 Line Regiments 108 Carmania 108 Auxiliaries 109 Eol 109 Hungry Plateau 109 Char-un 109 Lunar Allies 109 Cavalry Corps 110 Provincial Army 110 Provincial Army Organization 110 The Lunar Provinces 111 Sartar Free Army 112 Sartar Regiment Organization 113 Orlanthi Standards 114 Humakt’s Raven Banner 114 Battle Banner of the EWF 115 Sartar Magical Union 115 Sartar Free Army 116 The Sartar Royal Guard 116 Sartar City Militia 116 The Barbarian Horde 116 Independents 116 The Agimori of Prax 116 Beastmen 117 The Black Horse Troop 117 Cragspider and her Allies 117 Dragonewts 117 Giants 118 Grazeland Pony Breeders 118 The Holy Country 118 The God-King’s Armies 118 Calandraland 119 Ditali 119 Esrolia 119 God Forgot 120 Heortland 120 Shadow Plateau 120 The Islands 120 Mercenaries in Pavis 121 The Pol-Joni 121 Praxian Animal Nomads 121 Bison Tribe 122 High Llama Tribe 122 Impala Tribe 122 Rhinoceros Tribe 122 Sable Tribe 122 Unicorn Tribe 122 Zebra Tribe 123 Queendom of Jab 123 Sun Dome Temples 123 Yelmalion Regiments 124 Mo Baustra 125 Vanntar 125 Alda-Chur 126 Tarsh Exiles 126 The Telmori 126 Tusk Riders 127 Hero Wars Army Lists 128 Unit Descriptions 128 Armor 128 Morale 128 Lunar Army List 128 Lunar Headquarters 128 College of Magic 129 Sister’s Army 130 Imperial Bodyguard 130 Heartland Corps 131 Heavy Infantry 131 Light Infantry 133 Cavalry Corps 135 Heavy Cavalry 135 Light Cavalry 137 Chariots 138 Provincial Army 138 Aggar 138 Holay 138 Tarsh 139 Vanch 141 Carmania 141 Sartar Free Army List 141 Sartar Headquarters 141 Sartar Magical Union 142 Sartar Free Army 145 Heavy Cavalry 145 Light Cavalry 146 Heavy Infantry 146 Light Infantry 147 Sartar City Militia 147 Barbarian Horde 148 Independents 150 The Agimori of Prax 150 Beastmen 150 The Black Horse Troop 151 Cragspider and her Allies 152 Delecti 153 Dragonewts 154 The Dwarf of Dwarf Mine 154 Giants 155 Grazeland Pony Breeders 155 Mercenaries in Pavis 157 Queendom of Jab 157 Sun Dome Templars 157 Unicorn Tribe 158 Tarsh Exiles 158 Tusk Riders 159 Appendices 160 Sun Dome Temples 160 The First Age 160 The Second Age 161 The Third Age 163 The Great Harpoon 164 The History of the Harpoon 164 Recent History 164 The Tribes of Sartar 165 Old Hendriki 165 Sword Orlanthi 165 Axe Orlanthi 165 Dark Orlanthi 165 Yelmalio 165 Light Orlanthi 165 Composition of the Sartar Free Army 165 Lunar Regimental Founders 166 Fazzur Wideread, the Greatest General of Glorantha 166 The Seshnelan Army 170 Codes of War 171 Crusades 171 Seshnelan Army List 172 The Kralorelan Army 173 Army and Navy Quality 174 Equivalent Military Ranks 174 General Terminology 174 Military Terminology 176 General 176 Armor 177 Weapons 178 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darius West Posted November 26, 2016 Share Posted November 26, 2016 (edited) "Of course there is no record of Teshnan influence. There is no Teshnan influence on Yelmalio. There is no such thing as "Somash", and Yelmalios have always had a prohibition about wearing women's clothing. ALWAYS! I mean, it is just unseemly for a man to smoke hazia and gad about in drag. Now perhaps some of our hoplites don't wear pants to battle, but pants are not essential, armor is! As to those remarks about our sarissa's being overcompensation are simply obscene, and untrue ! All this talk about cross dressing and rampant buggery in the ranks is the propaganda of Yelmalio's enemies and detractors, and it HAS TO STOP. Yes the propaganda has to stop! Yes! Wait... what? Yes! Yes the buggery has to stop too Goldbreath! No there is no buggery and that is why it has to stop Yello! Hush! You are putting words in my mouth. I heard that remark Sonny Brightness, you are on report ! Now who has the big mouth? You'll be laughing out the other side... I heard that too ! Who said that ? Own up ! No? Right ! I've had enough! The back three files will have to beat me after parade!" - Count Solanthos Ironspike (a famous address to the hoplites on some difficult issues for the cult). Edited November 26, 2016 by Darius West 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davecake Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 I am among the many who would love to see this giant treatise on Gloranthan Warfare! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Helsdon Posted November 29, 2016 Author Share Posted November 29, 2016 34 minutes ago, davecake said: I am among the many who would love to see this giant treatise on Gloranthan Warfare! It isn't finished. Delayed by things such as proofreading The Glorantha Sourcebook. However, it is approaching its maximum page size. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Helsdon Posted February 13, 2017 Author Share Posted February 13, 2017 And version 2.0 is 'complete' at 220 pages and 130,000 words.... It started as an attempt to understand Gloranthan warfare, intended to just be a short essay, and grew and grew. Of course, whilst it is as canonical as I can make it, there are many assumptions, and many will be wide of the mark. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Helsdon Posted April 24, 2017 Author Share Posted April 24, 2017 And just to return to the subject of the Sun and horses... [I lack any solid information on the horses of the west or east of Genertela] Horses A distinction must be made between the deities of horses and deities of horse-riding. Despite great distances, horses are always associated with the Sun. Ralios At the Dawn Ralios was inhabited by numerous tribes of Hsunchen in the forest and the horse-riding tribes of the Enerali in the lowland plains and valleys. The Enerali had survived the Darkness by following Galanin, the Sun Horse, and his herds around. Horses were especially sacred animals to the Enerali, who ate their meat as part of their religious festivals. Their chiefs fought from chariots pulled by their sacred Galanini ponies and horses were ridden in the hunts of the abundant wild horses along the shores of Lake Felster. Fighting from horseback became increasingly common once the Enerali were forced to defend themselves against Seshnegi heavy cavalry. The Galanini believed they were kin to their mounts and that some of the chieftains could transform into horses. It seems likely these few chieftains were relicts of an almost extinct Hsunchen population. During the God Time Orlanth defeated Galanin; after Time began, Theyalans moved into Ralios and so his horses are found across Orlanthi lands. Elmal, another Sun God, and his wife Redaylda took them into their care. Peloria and Pent In Peloria and Pent the origin and nature of horses is far more confused. At the Dawn, Dara Happa was ruled by Pentan horse nomads called the Sons of the Sun, but the modern Dara Happan Empire was reestablished in 221. The traditions of the Pentans relate that the Sun God handed rule to his son Kargzant, who gave life to the Starlight Ancestors and made them his people. Before Time their armies of chariot-riding bowmen conquered the entire Pelorian bowl. One tribe, the Hirenmador, reestablished the Dara Happan Empire; another, the Lenshi, ruled Pelanda (and defeated bull-riders from the west); and yet another, the Veshtargos, ruled Rinliddi. They came into conflict in the south with tribes of horse riders, called the Pure Horse People or Hyalorings, named for their king Hyalor who it is said claimed descent from the dead Sun God Yamsur. The horse riders defeated the chariot riders but were reduced in numbers, becoming a special priestly caste as the two peoples merged. According to the Orlanthi, other Hyalorings wandered further south, with Beren the Rider and his people joining the Vingotlings; Beren (or Bereneth) married Redaylda, the daughter of Orlanth and Ernalda. The traditions of Dara Happa tell a very different version. Although both are Solar cultures, the schism between the horsemen and the cities dates back before Time. The Dara Happans claim that the Starlight Ancestors were refugees who fled into the southeast from the city of Nivorah (in what was later Saird) when their city was destroyed. Their gods had refused to obey the commands of Emperor Manarlavus, and when the city was ground to dust by the glacier, their people rode away upon the children of their horse goddess Gamara following the commands of their god Kargzant. Later they returned to refounded the empire under the Jenarong Dynasty; the warlords were named as gametae, ‘riders’. The sources name the city god of Nivorah as Reladivus, a name curiously reminiscent of the name of the Orlanthi Horse Riding Goddess, and of Reladiva of Jillaro, the feminine form of the name. The Dara Happan sources suggest that the Hyalorings split from the other people of Nivorah, riding south instead of southeast. They claim that the horses of the Hyalorings derive from the wounded and defeated Hippogriff, who lost her fangs, claws and wings. The broken demigod was taken and tamed by Hyalor Horsebreaker, becoming the horse goddess Hippoi. The only certainty in all this is that Redaylda is the Sairdite goddess of horses and sovereignty. Her husband is another horse god, called Hyalor, or less commonly Beren. They are relics of the Hyalorings who were in Saird at the Dawn though their modern heirs are the Pure Horse People of Pent and the Grazelands. Reladivus City god of Nivorah Reladiva Goddess of Old Jillaro Redaylda, Redalda, Redaylde or Redayla Orlanthi Horse Riding Goddess Arandayla Grazelander Horse Goddess 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pentallion Posted April 26, 2017 Share Posted April 26, 2017 (edited) On 6/17/2016 at 4:13 PM, Ali the Helering said: Indeed, he is not simply dead, but gone. I would be more inclined to suggest that any attempt to Quest to him would simply be an automatic fail. Hope, however, springs eternal in the human breast, and some people simply will not learn. Therefore I can well imagine a side-chapel in some Sundomes that is little used & where worship is unproductive. "Ah yes, well, the lack of response indicates that Glorious Yamsur is too heavily engaged in the fight against Chaos to respond. Let us send him more of our souls to struggle with the krjalki! Have faith!" Even annihilation by chaos is not permanent if one completes the 7 Sky Games Quest. But it would have taken Yelmalio or Yelorna to do it and now they cannot. So one would have to be an avatar of one of those two to succeed now. Unfortunately, the 7 Sky Games Quest works best with unassuming participants so as to not arouse the mythical powers and anyone who loved Yamsur enough to bring him back from Oblivion would be too powerful to succeed in the quest. Edited April 26, 2017 by Pentallion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joerg Posted April 26, 2017 Share Posted April 26, 2017 On 24.4.2017 at 9:52 PM, M Helsdon said: And just to return to the subject of the Sun and horses... I discussed this on the RQ Daily, before I ever saw Glorious ReAscent of Yelm, on the information in Troll Pak. (Possibly the last place anyone would go to look for this kind of information.) It just occurred to me that we have only a single First Rider myth in all of Genertela (which pretty much means in all of Glorantha, since it stems from Genert's Garden and spread into Vithela as much as it did into western Genertela), that of Hyalor son of Yamsur. Neither the Praxians nor the mounted Hykimi (Galanini, Pralori, Tawari) or the bird riders of Rinliddi and earlier northwestern Genertela or the Lopers appear to have such a myth. As to the West... Quote [I lack any solid information on the horses of the west or east of Genertela] Let me mention the HQ1 era essay on horses of Glorantha, which held the information that made it into Anaxial's Roster. And yes, people have described this as post-canonical. There we get a few primal horses: Deluskval horses from Danmalastan or Brithos, probably owing their ancestry to the Devolution tree of the Brithini rather than the syncretic Hykim tree of the Jrusteli. Galana ponies from Ralios - Hykimi horses, descended from Galanin (and possibly Ehilm), strangely undecided in this creative period which assigned a distinct Otherworld to all other creatures. These horses comply to the syncretic Hsunchen pantheon created by the Jrusteli who compared Pamaltelan Fiwan, western Genertelan Hykimi and eastern Genertelan Korgatsu Hsunchen. Hyal horses descended from Hippogriff, the Spirit World horse Sered horses from Nivorah/Saird (Jillaro), the God World horse of Kargzant and Yelm's Chariot. Vuanso horses are probably a sered variant, too, although a Korgatsu Hsunchen origin might be possible. Horses aren't mentioned much in Eastern context. It is possible that they are used in Vormain or on some of the larger East Isles, but such use isn't mentioned anywhere. Northwestern Pamaltelan horses appear to have been introduced by the Jrusteli, who in turn used stock bred from Deluskval and Galana origins. No such creatures anywhere else on Pamaltela. The western horse breeds seem to stem from to the devolution myth one version of which is in Anaxial's Roster, p.209f. P.209 has eight "power" primal animals, the powers being burrowing, giantism, running, hiding, flying, having horns, having armor, being sedentary, and five "elemental" primal animals on p.210, soft invertebrates, (swimming) vertebrates, (legless) land animals, feathered animals, and furred animals. These are preceded by a celestial court of earlier animals. The primal beast concept in that myth descends on the sun and (e)merges as the first of the ancient beasts, so all animals are solar (or energy) beings - even Hykim and Mikyh (who, according to this myth, de-merge again, though presumably in different ways). The Deluskval-descended western horse breeds Daron, Dariti, and later Fronan and Swadal are derived from this, rather than from the myths of the "Hykimi" the Kachasti encountered when entering Genertela. The Malkioni and Brithini suffer from having two parallel sets of myth - the systematic and fairly abstract Danmalastan myths of Devolution, and a much more hands-on and earthy set of myths for Brithos and its later interaction with the Likiti of Seshnela and beyond. This might be a hold-over of the Three Strictly Separate Worlds dogma that ruled Hero Wars and HeroQuest1 era publications. We know little about the original Malkioni myths outside of their personal origin because the Jrusteli overwrote much of the original myths with their syncretic myth. (I do wonder what those beast myths are worth in terms of heroquesting. They surely make good concepts for sorcery, allowing to generalize spells affecting beasts.) Quote Horses A distinction must be made between the deities of horses and deities of horse-riding. Despite great distances, horses are always associated with the Sun. Ralios At the Dawn Ralios was inhabited by numerous tribes of Hsunchen in the forest and the horse-riding tribes of the Enerali in the lowland plains and valleys. The Enerali had survived the Darkness by following Galanin, the Sun Horse, and his herds around. I don't think that they still were recognizably Hykimi at the time. King Dan was a Gray Age hero who united the Enerali and pulled them out of any "hsunchen" state of being. I may be wrong about this, but I get the impression that the western Hykimi had the Likiti civilisation of demi-goddesses in a role similar to the eastern draconic Korgatsu and the Amuron of the Fiwan. In Ralios this survived as the Green Lady with her serpent regalia (identified with Ernalda by the Lightbringers), in Seshnela Froalar joined with Seshna Likita and sired the Serpent Kings who took over from the Basmoli kings. Galanin appears in the Jrusteli beast monomyth as a son of the hoofed animal mother and presumably the Ralian sun god Ehilm. The Ehilm portion probably was downplayed by the Jrusteli for their beast monomyth. Galanin appears to have sired Eneral on the Green Woman or one of her lesser manifestations. Eneral in turn had four sons who founded tribes, pretty much like Vingkot had his two times five children, which resulted in 9 marriages and tribes (and one extra - no information whether Galanin might have had one or more extras, too). When the Lightbringers contacted the Enerali, they were already in their second dynasty, the Dangkan confederacy, possibly born from centuries of conflict with the Seshnelan civilisations (pre-Dawn the Pendali and post-Dawn both Pendali and the Serpent Kings). The Lighbringers shared their discovery of worship with the Dangkae, but initially didn't join them to the Council. It looks very much like the Enerali were "Hill Barbarians" rather than "Hsunchen". Users of Beast Totems rather than shapechangers, with at least as much "urbanisation" as the Pendali. They, the (Seshnegi) Pendali and the (Fronelan) Enjorali Hykimi appear to have been only part-time or part-tribe Hsunchen. Unlike the Pendali, who apparently kept shapechanging into their ancestral beast, the Enerali and Enjorali appear to have ridden those beasts, with no indication that their cavalries turned into armies of men in melee, or the warriors turning into the beasts in order to retreat or attack. Their pantheon is found in the Guide on p.373, and the names correspond to the metal lore of Bertalor (the Serpent King?) of Seshnela. Quote Hrelar Amali was the religious center at the Dawn, with a religious organization of priest-judges uniting the Galanini clans into the Dangan Confederacy. They fought many wars against the Silver Empire of Seshnela, and resisted joining the Theyalan Council until 180. King Dan is mentioned only in context with Daran as a Dawn Age King, making me wonder whether Dan and Dari are the same name, possibly one the mis-spelling or mis-reading of the other. This Likiti connection might be tied to the Theyalan view of the Hykimi, p.397 Quote Ralios is inhabited by many tribes of beast people called “Hsunchen” by the God Learners. At the Dawn, they were unified by a shamanic priesthood called Snake Masters, Cowled Vipers, High Ones, Great Lords, Holy Ones, and so on. They fought ferociously against the Theyalan settlers in the First Age, who called them “Serpent Beasts,” but were ultimately exterminated in 320, at the Battle of Zebrawood. Now the secrets of the Serpent Beasts are known only amongst the Pralori. This description makes the Enerali sound like theists when compared to the Hykimi. Quote Horses were especially sacred animals to the Enerali, who ate their meat as part of their religious festivals. They probably used their horse kin for sacrifices, but I doubt that horse meat would have made up a significant part of their diet. Quote Their chiefs fought from chariots pulled by their sacred Galanini ponies and horses were ridden in the hunts of the abundant wild horses along the shores of Lake Felster. It is documented that their deities used chariots - the sun god has a temple showing his chariot drawn by seven horses in Tolin, and the Chariot of Lightning is all over the place in context with the Henotheist Church of Otkorion. For the Enerali to have chariots at the Dawn means that they aren't Hsunchen at that point any more. Quote Fighting from horseback became increasingly common once the Enerali were forced to defend themselves against Seshnegi heavy cavalry. The Seshnegi make it appear that the Pendali lands they took over were already in a state of conflict with the Dangkae, or that the resisting Pendali had allied with the Dangkae. Quote The Galanini believed they were kin to their mounts and that some of the chieftains could transform into horses. It seems likely these few chieftains were relicts of an almost extinct Hsunchen population. Did their chiefs perform horse weddings? If so, did they shape change for this? Quote During the God Time Orlanth defeated Galanin; after Time began, Theyalans moved into Ralios and so his horses are found across Orlanthi lands. Elmal, another Sun God, and his wife Redaylda took them into their care. I don't think that it worked that way. The Orlanthi would have had galana ponies already before the Dawn, or otherwise the somewhat bigger and stronger sered breed would dominate the Manirian herds, too. The Plundering of Aron offers a good opportunity for galana horses to end up in Vingkotling lands. I am quite convinced that the mare handmaidens of Ernalda, Beseta and Besanga, grey and red, are galana ponies, too. And quite likely were so even before the counter-raid aganst the enchanter. Quote Peloria and Pent In Peloria and Pent the origin and nature of horses is far more confused. At the Dawn, Dara Happa was ruled by Pentan horse nomads called the Sons of the Sun, but the modern Dara Happan Empire was reestablished in 221. Is it? Plentonius, the chronicler of Khordavu, most likely experienced horse barbarian rule himself, even though the last Jenarong emperor was an Alkothi. Quote The traditions of the Pentans relate that the Sun God handed rule to his son Kargzant, who gave life to the Starlight Ancestors and made them his people. Before Time their armies of chariot-riding bowmen conquered the entire Pelorian bowl. One tribe, the Hirenmador, reestablished the Dara Happan Empire; another, the Lenshi, ruled Pelanda (and defeated bull-riders from the west); and yet another, the Veshtargos, ruled Rinliddi. They came into conflict in the south with tribes of horse riders, called the Pure Horse People or Hyalorings, named for their king Hyalor who it is said claimed descent from the dead Sun God Yamsur. The horse riders defeated the chariot riders but were reduced in numbers, becoming a special priestly caste as the two peoples merged. Looking at the map of Anaxial's cities, I am always a bit irritated by Elempur. The place is obviously named after El(e)malus, named by Shargash as King of the Vingkotlings. The story about the bow retrieval might be related to the dissolution of the Jorganostelli. Nivorah was the city of horses. Funny, that. Murharzarm's folk used riding birds and gazzam, not horses. Emperor Yelm had no need of chariot or steed, he never left his throne room. Gamara fed the city, though. The horse-drawn sun chariot appears to be a post-Dawn myth, or applies to a lesser, mobile sun, not immobile Emperor Yelm. Elmal as god of the sun-horse works, although Elmal appears to be specifically tied to the Hyaloring (Yamsur) rider myth involving Hippogriff rather than the standard chariot myth. Gamara as another name for Hippoi is a Plentonic idea that corresponds to her depiction on the Gods Wall. She is a horse goddess, not a rider goddess, and that presumably only as late as the Nivorahn's refusal to follow Manarlavus under his dome: Quote GRoY p.27: However, the gods of Nivorah City refused, and even insulted the emperor. They said that they were tired of following ineffective emperors, and that they had a better way to survive, and a better ally to help them. Then they showed everyone the first horses, trained and ready to ride. Gamara is shown mutilated and horse headed already at the presentation to Murharzarm on occasion of his coronation, but if we value the statement above, not yet ridden. Quote According to the Orlanthi, other Hyalorings wandered further south, with Beren the Rider and his people joining the Vingotlings; Beren (or Bereneth) married Redaylda, the daughter of Orlanth and Ernalda. The traditions of Dara Happa tell a very different version. Although both are Solar cultures, the schism between the horsemen and the cities dates back before Time. The Dara Happans claim that the Starlight Ancestors were refugees who fled into the southeast from the city of Nivorah (in what was later Saird) when their city was destroyed. Their gods had refused to obey the commands of Emperor Manarlavus, and when the city was ground to dust by the glacier, their people rode away upon the children of their horse goddess Gamara following the commands of their god Kargzant. Later they returned to refounded the empire under the Jenarong Dynasty; the warlords were named as gametae, ‘riders’. The sources name the city god of Nivorah as Reladivus, a name curiously reminiscent of the name of the Orlanthi Horse Riding Goddess, and of Reladiva of Jillaro, the feminine form of the name. The Dara Happan sources suggest that the Hyalorings split from the other people of Nivorah, riding south instead of southeast. They claim that the horses of the Hyalorings derive from the wounded and defeated Hippogriff, who lost her fangs, claws and wings. The broken demigod was taken and tamed by Hyalor Horsebreaker, becoming the horse goddess Hippoi. The only certainty in all this is that Redaylda is the Sairdite goddess of horses and sovereignty. Her husband is another horse god, called Hyalor, or less commonly Beren. They are relics of the Hyalorings who were in Saird at the Dawn though their modern heirs are the Pure Horse People of Pent and the Grazelands. Reladivus City god of Nivorah Reladiva Goddess of Old Jillaro Redaylda, Redalda, Redaylde or Redayla Orlanthi Horse Riding Goddess Arandayla Grazelander Horse Goddess Redalda - horse loving daughter of Ernalda, marries Elmal in the first foreigner marriage (among gods). Redaylde/Redaylda - youngest daughter of Vingkot, marries Beren the Hyaloring in the first foreigner marriage among the Vingkotlings. (Indicating that her older sisters married after her, e.g. Orgorval(t)e who married Ulanin, another rider. Ulanin and Galanin sound quite similar, possibly suggesting some Enerali connection. But Ulanin could just as well be another Hyaloring. Reladiva is not Gamara. She and Reladivus are horse breeder gods, not beast deities. The Dara Happans really have no idea where the Hyalorings came from - at that time they were locked in under their dome, or hiding away in Darjiin hilltop fortresses. Vuranostrum appears more or less out of nowhere, and becomes the least flawed of the Jenarong rite emperors. His too many sons didn't qualify for emperor, though. 1 Quote Telling how it is excessive verbis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Helsdon Posted April 26, 2017 Author Share Posted April 26, 2017 7 minutes ago, Joerg said: Let me mention the HQ1 era essay on horses of Glorantha, which held the information that made it into Anaxial's Roster. And yes, people have described this as post-canonical. Yes, I'm aware of it - but it lacks any mythological information so I haven't used it. 8 minutes ago, Joerg said: I don't think that they still were recognizably Hykimi at the time. Just a faint kinship as some chieftains could apparently turn into horses - which suggests to me a fading Hsunchen lineage. 9 minutes ago, Joerg said: Looking at the map of Anaxial's cities, I am always a bit irritated by Elempur. The place is obviously named after El(e)malus, named by Shargash as King of the Vingkotlings. The story about the bow retrieval might be related to the dissolution of the Jorganostelli. As an in-world document it may well be a later invention to explain the world 'as it is' and to discredit the Horse Barbarians as the rival Solar people - 'they may have ruled us at the Dawn but they were descended from rebels, and so had no legal basis for their rule' sort of thing. 13 minutes ago, Joerg said: Nivorah was the city of horses. Funny, that. Murharzarm's folk used riding birds and gazzam, not horses. Emperor Yelm had no need of chariot or steed, he never left his throne room. Gamara fed the city, though. Ditto - potentially later invention, or faded memory. Yet we find references to Yelm's chariot... 14 minutes ago, Joerg said: The horse-drawn sun chariot appears to be a post-Dawn myth, or applies to a lesser, mobile sun, not immobile Emperor Yelm. Elmal as god of the sun-horse works, although Elmal appears to be specifically tied to the Hyaloring (Yamsur) rider myth involving Hippogriff rather than the standard chariot myth. Indeed. I suspect that pretty much all pre-Dawn myths are as suspect as using Homer as an historical source for Bronze Age history - there are echoes and shadows of events in there but filtered by later invention. 17 minutes ago, Joerg said: Gamara as another name for Hippoi is a Plentonic idea that corresponds to her depiction on the Gods Wall. She is a horse goddess, not a rider goddess, and that presumably only as late as the Nivorahn's refusal to follow Manarlavus under his dome: Yes, there's a distinction between Horse Goddesses and Horse-Riding Goddesses. 19 minutes ago, Joerg said: Redalda - horse loving daughter of Ernalda, marries Elmal in the first foreigner marriage (among gods). Redaylde/Redaylda - youngest daughter of Vingkot, marries Beren the Hyaloring in the first foreigner marriage among the Vingkotlings. (Indicating that her older sisters married after her, e.g. Orgorval(t)e who married Ulanin, another rider. Ulanin and Galanin sound quite similar, possibly suggesting some Enerali connection. But Ulanin could just as well be another Hyaloring. True - but the similarity of names suggests the former might be related to the latter - as per your comment: The place is obviously named after El(e)malus, named by Shargash as King of the Vingkotlings. We are dealing with two cultural myths here. I hadn't considered that Elmalus/Elmal might be related to Hyalor/Beren... 24 minutes ago, Joerg said: The Dara Happans really have no idea where the Hyalorings came from - at that time they were locked in under their dome, or hiding away in Darjiin hilltop fortresses. Vuranostrum appears more or less out of nowhere, and becomes the least flawed of the Jenarong rite emperors. His too many sons didn't qualify for emperor, though. They have no idea where the Starlight Ancestors or the Hyalorings came from - though the map in TGROY shows them both deriving from Nivorah. In all cases, I was careful to relate to beliefs and traditions, not 'facts'. The only fact is that the only in-world sources are unreliable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metcalph Posted April 27, 2017 Share Posted April 27, 2017 Quote The Dara Happans really have no idea where the Hyalorings came from - at that time they were locked in under their dome, or hiding away in Darjiin hilltop fortresses. Vuranostrum appears more or less out of nowhere, and becomes the least flawed of the Jenarong rite emperors. His too many sons didn't qualify for emperor, though. The Hyalorings say they came from Nivorah and moved to Darjiin during the Great Darkness. Vuranostum is the King of Darjiin who, after the dawn, bests the Gamatae of Raibanth and becomes Emperor of Dara Happa. That's as described in the Glorious ReAscent and there's nothing mysterious about it. The Starlight Ancestors come from a Votanki-related people living in and around the Elf Sea (as per the map and Ancestors of the Lenshi Kings). Vuranostum's sons did qualify to become Emperor. But they couldn't agree on which one of them should become Emperor. They were then all killed by the battle against the Great Giant. Vuranostum's grandsons were then slain by Son of Evil/Vettebe. Of Vuranostum's great grandsons (within the fourth generation and thus eligible), two can be identified: Kerunebbe (described as a Horse Emperor in the Fortunate Succession p85) and Gestornus (identified as his kinsman). Their main rival from the throne is Dardaggus, Eater of Flesh, who is a grandson of Gerruskoger (a Chariot Emperor according to FS p85. Thus they have valid claims to the throne from different Emperors (Chariot Emperors from the Starlight Ancestors and Horse Emperors from Nivorah by way of Darjiin). Gestornus tries to become Emperor following Avivath. He is betrayed by Kerunebbe who sold out to Dardaggus (Glorious ReAscent p45, where Gestornus and Kerunebbe are described as Kings of Kostaddi and Darjiin). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metcalph Posted April 27, 2017 Share Posted April 27, 2017 Quote Nivorah was the city of horses. Funny, that. Murharzarm's folk used riding birds and gazzam, not horses. Emperor Yelm had no need of chariot or steed, he never left his throne room. Gamara fed the city, though. The horse-drawn sun chariot appears to be a post-Dawn myth, or applies to a lesser, mobile sun, not immobile Emperor Yelm. Elmal as god of the sun-horse works, although Elmal appears to be specifically tied to the Hyaloring (Yamsur) rider myth involving Hippogriff rather than the standard chariot myth. Gamara as another name for Hippoi is a Plentonic idea that corresponds to her depiction on the Gods Wall. She is a horse goddess, not a rider goddess, and that presumably only as late as the Nivorahn's refusal to follow Manarlavus under his dome: Nivorah is first described as the City of Serenity in Murharzarm's time. In Anaxial's time, they are described as ruling Saird and give the Sandals of Innocence. Horses don't appear much later until the time of Manarlavus. There's a document which describes the myth of Yelm's chariot when Modaginadal was Emperor (of Darjiin and so the false emperor who provoked the "We Hate Darjiinian Usurpers") so horses and chariots were known in prehistoric Dara Happa. When Gartemirus helps overthrow the Rikestings in favour of Manarlavus (Entekosiad p51), the other troops helping him include a man on a horse which was a new sight to the Pelandans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metcalph Posted April 27, 2017 Share Posted April 27, 2017 Quote Looking at the map of Anaxial's cities, I am always a bit irritated by Elempur. The place is obviously named after El(e)malus, named by Shargash as King of the Vingkotlings. The story about the bow retrieval might be related to the dissolution of the Jorganostelli. I always assumed from the rune used to describe Elempur (Lokarnos's rune) that the people there were Golden Wheel Dancers. The destruction of Elempur dates to the Ram People invasion whereas the Jorganostelli date to a much later period (cf the Yolp Mountain story in the Glorious ReAscent p80 in which the Ram People are followed by the invasion of the Erlandings and then a third invasion from the unnamed horde which might be the Sons of Vingkot). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joerg Posted April 27, 2017 Share Posted April 27, 2017 13 hours ago, metcalph said: I always assumed from the rune used to describe Elempur (Lokarnos's rune) that the people there were Golden Wheel Dancers. The destruction of Elempur dates to the Ram People invasion whereas the Jorganostelli date to a much later period (cf the Yolp Mountain story in the Glorious ReAscent p80 in which the Ram People are followed by the invasion of the Erlandings and then a third invasion from the unnamed horde which might be the Sons of Vingkot). I was working from the assumption that the Elempur raid was the sons of Vingkot, and the subsequent Nivorah defeat was the solo enterprise of the Lastralgortelli, leading to the dissolution of that tribe. The dissolution of the Jorganostelli cannot have followed that much later, given the successor tribes of the Stravuli and Deleskarings and also the Jaranings (the Vingkotling side of the Lawstaff myth, from which possibly a few generations later the Garanvuli were formed). All of this sounds like loss and then regaining of the bow of Yelm. We learn hardly anything about the Jorganostelli other than their disbanding, and little more about the Koroltes (a kings' list for the ancestry of Heort). The Gold Wheel Dancer connection is a bit troublesome and could convince me that the attackers of Elempur were different from the Vingkotlings. I am aware that the Vingkotlings weren't nice people, but given the role of the GWDs in the Unity efforts, I don't see how the GWDs would be former victims of the Vingkotlings (to the point where they destroyed their major civilisation). That sounds more like a host of Vadrudi. However, checking the Dawn Sites map, the survival place for the (10) Gold Wheel Dancers lies deep within Vingkotling lands, just north of the Hydra Mountains in modern Tarsh, far out of the reach of the Dara Happans - indeed in original Lastralgortelli territory. I wouldn't connect the Gold Wheel Dancers with archery, either. (Checking the Dawn Sites map in the Guide - is there an erratum for the duplicate Korolstead southwest of Berenstead? Probably just a cut'n'paste leftover from making that map.) Trying to coordinate Vingkotling and Dara Happan events: the Flood Era saw the dry lands of Ernaldela ruled by Vingkot, and populated by Vingkotlings, Durevings and Helerings. The Orlanthi don't seem to have a myth how or why the flood ended, only how the efforts of the seas to drown Erndaldela were thwarted, unless we get a second How Sshorga was Tamed and Sent North incident. Genert's Garden remained mostly unaffected by the Flood, except for the strip separating it from Ernaldela. The Dara Happans regard the flood as a universal event, with no dry land remaining anywhere, and with boat-builder myths to explain the Suvarians and the Blue People of the West. They get raided by the southerners only in their third post-flood generation, in the reign of Urvairinus. Is it meaningful to ask whether the Foreigner Wedding of Elmal and Redalda occurred before or after the Flood? In any circumstances, the Wedding of Bereneth (early Vingkotling Age) and absorption of Hyalorings to the Vingkotlings predated the appearance of Vuranstum (Gray Age) significantly. The Berenethtelli were comparably strong when they joined the Heortlings, and so were the Orgovaltes. The Hyaloring rider folk of Hendrestus (Hendroste?) held the lowlands of Darjiin without much trouble from the Manimati hilltop cities. Alkoth may have been dealt a blow from the conflict between Shargash and Kargzant which Kargzant won, or it may have received a renewal with the arrival of Lerustum the Killer who opened the Temple to Shargash there. In any case, Henjarl would have remained the hunting ground of the Shadzorings. It isn't clear whether the Hyalorings of Hendrestus were a Pure Horse Folk at the time, or whether only a few holy families in charge of keeping the pure breed followed a Pure Horse lifestyle and their superior Hyal (Goldeneye) breed. Their distant kin among the Berenethtelli definitely bred cattle alongside with horses, and may have supported them with sacrificial meat and grain in exchange for breeding services of their special horses. I was wondering how the Hyalorings became part of the Kargzanti horse warlords, but the Vuranostum story basically tells how he was adopted by the Hirenmador as king, and how he led them to conquer (or assimilate) the Veshtargos cannibals (who presumably are the origin of Eater of Flesh and Eats Women). Hyalorings and Berenethtelli were more or less direct neighbors. I can see how horse nomads and the agents of the Kingdom of Night would avoid one another. I don't see how horse nomads would miss agriculturalist riders in their neighborhood, though, especially ones with ancestral ties. So how ignorant would the Berenethtelli be of the Hyalorings north of them, and of their insertion as upper class among the Hirenmador? And if they knew, how much would they have passed on to the uz? All in all, the 334 (Dara Happan) years of the Gray Age (starting with the re-appearance of Kargzant and Shargash) following the Empty Emperor appear to have been quite lively. The Starlight Wanderers established (often unfriendly) contact with other groups. It isn't exactly clear whether they managed to haul them off their Greater Darkness autism, or whether certain behavior like e.g. the Veshtargos cannibalism indicate only a partial return to functionality. (I wonder whether there are modern Pentans who still practice some form of cannibalism.) Both Jenarong and Vuranostum recruit additional peoples to their empire. Both of them awaken temples. (Horse on Table does so indirectly, causing Alkoth to revive its Shargash temple.) How much did the actual arrival of Antirius (the Dawn) take this further? Quote Telling how it is excessive verbis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metcalph Posted April 28, 2017 Share Posted April 28, 2017 13 hours ago, Joerg said: I was working from the assumption that the Elempur raid was the sons of Vingkot, and the subsequent Nivorah defeat was the solo enterprise of the Lastralgortelli, leading to the dissolution of that tribe. That's probably a false assumption considering that the destruction of Elempur is clearly ascribed to the Ram People and: Quote The Shepherd King, Varnaval tamed the rams and hitched them to his chariot, raided the foreigners and forced them to pay tribute. Aided by the Iron Ram, he waged war upon the foreigners and conquered the world, until they murdered him with demons and sorcery Book of Heortling Mythology p162 Since the Sons of Vingkot are not aware of Varnaval or even the Iron Ram, their raid is much later. The Ram People conflict is only paid attention to in the Glorious ReAscent because it was the first such conflict. There were many more such raids and conflicts after the Invasion of the Ram People but the Dara Happans do not consider them mythically significant 13 hours ago, Joerg said: The dissolution of the Jorganostelli cannot have followed that much later, given the successor tribes of the Stravuli and Deleskarings and also the Jaranings (the Vingkotling side of the Lawstaff myth, from which possibly a few generations later the Garanvuli were formed). All of this sounds like loss and then regaining of the bow of Yelm. The Stravuli are not a Vingkotling tribe whereas the Vingkotlings lived for a further three generations until the Sword and Helm War. There is a further two generations in which five Vingkotling Kings rule in which period the Great Darkness occurs and the Star Captains (like Garan and Stravul appear). A generation is undefined but can be up to 300-400 years (Arthal's lifespan of almost 500 years was exceptional BoHM p120). So there's a thousand years after Jorganos before the Stravul descends. The Jaranings are not described as a tribe and we do not know when the Deleskarings became a tribe. So the idea that Urvairinus killed Jorganos to retrieve the Bow of Yelm is weak (the Dara Happans only believe that Urvarinus went to Elempur to retrieve the Bow, not make a raid on ram people lands). 13 hours ago, Joerg said: However, checking the Dawn Sites map, the survival place for the (10) Gold Wheel Dancers lies deep within Vingkotling lands, just north of the Hydra Mountains in modern Tarsh, far out of the reach of the Dara Happans - indeed in original Lastralgortelli territory. I wouldn't connect the Gold Wheel Dancers with archery, either. It does not follow that the survival place for the Gold Wheel Dancers is the same place as the sacked city of Elempur. And the idea that the Vingkotling held the same territory for all time is IMO rather suspect. 13 hours ago, Joerg said: Trying to coordinate Vingkotling and Dara Happan events: the Flood Era saw the dry lands of Ernaldela ruled by Vingkot, and populated by Vingkotlings, Durevings and Helerings. You are conflating populations once again. What most people call Vingkotlings (including the Gloranthans) refers to the people ruled by the sons and heirs of Vingkot rather than by Vingkot himself. The story of the Vingkotlings begins when Vingkot is killed. There's only about two pages of myths describing the time when Vingkot ruled. Yes, during the Flood and Early Storm Age, Vingkot ruled Ernaldela and there were Durevings and many others under his rule. Over the long period of Vingkot's rule, the various peoples of Ernaldela gradually transformed to become the Vingkotling Tribes (with the Durevings changing from a distinctive peoples to a way of life). But then Vingkot was killed by Chaos Man and the classical Vingkotling culture begins under the reign of the Sons of Vingkot. In my opinion, this corresponds to the Middle Storm Age. 13 hours ago, Joerg said: The Orlanthi don't seem to have a myth how or why the flood ended, only how the efforts of the seas to drown Erndaldela were thwarted, unless we get a second How Sshorga was Tamed and Sent North incident. They do. They fought the seas and won. They didn't just thwart the seas in attempting to drown Ernaldela, they went further and drove them back from lands that had been drowned BoHM p88. Genert's Garden remained mostly unaffected by the Flood, except for the strip separating it from Ernaldela. The Dara Happans regard the flood as a universal event, with no dry land remaining anywhere, and with boat-builder myths to explain the Suvarians and the Blue People of the West. They get raided by the southerners only in their third post-flood generation, in the reign of Urvairinus. 13 hours ago, Joerg said: Is it meaningful to ask whether the Foreigner Wedding of Elmal and Redalda occurred before or after the Flood? In any circumstances, the Wedding of Bereneth (early Vingkotling Age) and absorption of Hyalorings to the Vingkotlings predated the appearance of Vuranstum (Gray Age) significantly. Vuranostum is Dawn Age as he became Emperor in 33 ST. And Beren would have been active after the Flood or even well after the four Sons of Vingkot as he is mysteriously not present when they raid Dara Happa. Yes, Vingkotling genealogy say he was active when Vingkot was King as he married Vingkot's daughter but it's equally plausible that Berenethtelli skalds backdated the reign of their illustrious founder to become the compatriot of the Four Sons of Vingkot and that this also happened with Ulanin and Poscriptor. 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Joerg Posted April 28, 2017 Share Posted April 28, 2017 3 hours ago, metcalph said: That's probably a false assumption considering that the destruction of Elempur is clearly ascribed to the Ram People I have become a lot less confident when dating the God Time sequentially than I used to be. Still, let's assume that we can find a single true sequence of God Time events. The reign of Urvairinus is unequivocally post-flood era, pre-Ice Age. That period is clearly part of the Vingkotling Age - Vingkot became King of the humans already during the flood. Vingkot went away to fight Chaos Man single-handedly, beyond the Realm of mortal men (and ended up in the First Battle of Chaos, in another age, where he received his mortal wound), then returned to his kin, held alive by his divine spark, so he chose to be immolated to be released from his agony. After his immolation, the sons of Vingkot vied for succession, and sacked many Dara Happan cities (which isn't limited to the Septopolis in GRoY). That would have to be in the reigns of Anaxial (no mention of such an event), Lukarius (neither any mention) or Urvairinus (bingo, Elempur). The repeat raid followed by a Dara Happan victory, also check. Could this have been a later conflict with Urvairinus? With Kestinoros? With Manarlarvus? Something the Alkothi didn't bother to tell the Raibanthi Emperor? Possibly yes, but that leads us too close to the Late Storm Age. 3 hours ago, metcalph said: and: The Shepherd King, Varnaval tamed the rams and hitched them to his chariot, raided the foreigners and forced them to pay tribute. Aided by the Iron Ram, he waged war upon the foreigners and conquered the world, until they murdered him with demons and sorcery Check the Andam Horde story in Entekosiad for this event. IMO. The location later has the Talastari ram folk of Lokamayadon. All of that fits well enough. We know hardly anything about the Lastralgortelli, other than that they perished in their second raid. Lastralgor may very well have brought the Iron Ram along. 3 hours ago, metcalph said: Since the Sons of Vingkot are not aware of Varnaval or even the Iron Ram, their raid is much later. The Ram People conflict is only paid attention to in the Glorious ReAscent because it was the first such conflict. There were many more such raids and conflicts after the Invasion of the Ram People but the Dara Happans do not consider them mythically significant The Varnaval snippet doesn't state that he invaded Dara Happa. That's your conjecture, and about as valid as mine. 3 hours ago, metcalph said: The Stravuli are not a Vingkotling tribe Heortling Mythology says: Quote The Stravuli Another Star Tribe was later formed out of the Jorganostelli. This tribe, called the Stravuli, is not associated with the House of Vingkot, but became one of the most powerful tribe of the Heortlings. There are no Heortling Star Tribes. All surviving Vingkotling tribes became Heortling tribes. The Stravuli were formed from the Jorganostelli, as a Vingkotling tribe, without any son, daughter, grandson or granddaughter of Vingkot leading them. We can discuss whether they had Vingkot type tribal kingship or some other model, but you cannot claim that this tribe was formed only after IFWW. 3 hours ago, metcalph said: whereas the Vingkotlings lived for a further three generations until the Sword and Helm War. There is a further two generations in which five Vingkotling Kings rule in which period the Great Darkness occurs and the Star Captains (like Garan and Stravul appear). A generation is undefined but can be up to 300-400 years (Arthal's lifespan of almost 500 years was exceptional BoHM p120). So there's a thousand years after Jorganos before the Stravul descends. WIth such extended life-spans, don't you think that people got to know their great-great-great-great-great-grandchildren if they survived long enough? Such longevity may smear the term generation in that the firstborn may have already great-grandchildren when the lastborn take their first breaths, but adding up the life spans of methusalahs doesn't define historical dates. This logical fallacy is common among literalist interpreters of the King James Bible, but I thought we would be above such mistakes. 3 hours ago, metcalph said: The Jaranings are not described as a tribe and we do not know when the Deleskarings became a tribe. So the idea that Urvairinus killed Jorganos to retrieve the Bow of Yelm is weak (the Dara Happans only believe that Urvarinus went to Elempur to retrieve the Bow, not make a raid on ram people lands). Sure - the idea is weak. But Urvairinus doesn't reclaim the bow in the battle, but further south. The Deleskaring story (not reprinted in the Guide) tells how Deleskar remained behind while Jorganos went north, and didn't return. He might have been killed in or about Elempur. 3 hours ago, metcalph said: It does not follow that the survival place for the Gold Wheel Dancers is the same place as the sacked city of Elempur. And the idea that the Vingkotling held the same territory for all time is IMO rather suspect. Which is why we find Berenstead in Berenethtelli lands at the Dawn, Ulaninstead in Orgovaltes territory, etc.? The Vingkotlings appear to have remained at the lands of their founders. I agree that some dislocation of tribes would have been more in character for what we know about the Orlanthi, but our sources don't show any evidence of that. More later. Quote Telling how it is excessive verbis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joerg Posted April 28, 2017 Share Posted April 28, 2017 7 hours ago, metcalph said: Quote Trying to coordinate Vingkotling and Dara Happan events: the Flood Era saw the dry lands of Ernaldela ruled by Vingkot, and populated by Vingkotlings, Durevings and Helerings. You are conflating populations once again. What most people call Vingkotlings (including the Gloranthans) refers to the people ruled by the sons and heirs of Vingkot rather than by Vingkot himself. The story of the Vingkotlings begins when Vingkot is killed. There's only about two pages of myths describing the time when Vingkot ruled. You're spouting strange categories once again. The nine original Vingkotling tribes (1 -vari, 3 -tes, 5 -telli) clearly are created while Vingkot was king. The -vuli Star Tribes are created after his death - we know five (Liorn-, Forosil-, Garan-, Sedenor-, Stra-), plus the Esrolvuli who aren't Vingkotling. The Deleskarings are a strange exception in the naming - it is possible that they didn't have the status of a tribe, but survived anyway. By the way, not all stories corroborate your idea that the expedition of the sons of Vingkot occurred only after Vingkot's immolation. Heortling Mythology p.120: Quote Korol ruled his people long and wisely and his people were happy. Korol died before his father did, being killed in battle by a war god after it got its share of Death. The circumstances of Vingkot's death by Chaos are extremely obscure, as is their timing. If Vingkot fought the Darkmen and the Icemen, what Dara Happan cities would have been left of Dara Happa to be plundered by his sons after his death? 7 hours ago, metcalph said: Yes, during the Flood and Early Storm Age, Vingkot ruled Ernaldela and there were Durevings and many others under his rule. Over the long period of Vingkot's rule, the various peoples of Ernaldela gradually transformed to become the Vingkotling Tribes (with the Durevings changing from a distinctive peoples to a way of life). I don't see a gradual transformation. We have the sons and daughters of Vingkot create heroic, warlike tribes, the daughters by choice of their husbands and presumably their followers. We know that Kodig married the Queen of Nochet, and introduced the (Dureving?) population of Esrolia to his rule - with only partial success, so maybe there was some gradual conversion. We can assume that the other three brothers had wives who brought significant kinsfolk into the tribes, too - Heort's ancestor Darndrev brought the deer folk, although only in a later generation. But I see potential for beast riders of now domestic beasts entering the Vingkotling tribe through marriage. If Lastralgor brought in ram people, the identification by the Dara Happans would be explained. We don't hear anything about clans, anywhere - maybe because all the problems were above clan level. What are the origins of the other Theyalan humans? How much were the Esrolvuli Vingkotlings, and how much were they Durevings under the absolutist rule of the Grandmothers? Do Pelaskites and Caladralanders have exclusively non-Dureving and non-Helering roots? The Manirian tribes? 7 hours ago, metcalph said: But then Vingkot was killed by Chaos Man and the classical Vingkotling culture begins under the reign of the Sons of Vingkot. In my opinion, this corresponds to the Middle Storm Age. I can see that you want to have distinct, non-overlapping Ages. I don't see God-Time having these discrete switches in the Ages. What exactly is the classical Vingkotling culture you claim to have started exactly with the immolation of Vingkot? 7 hours ago, metcalph said: Quote The Orlanthi don't seem to have a myth how or why the flood ended, only how the efforts of the seas to drown Erndaldela were thwarted, unless we get a second How Sshorga was Tamed and Sent North incident. They do. They fought the seas and won. They didn't just thwart the seas in attempting to drown Ernaldela, they went further and drove them back from lands that had been drowned BoHM p88. p.88 Vingkot went and conquered those lands, but it isn't clear whether he got wet feet doing so. p.66 tells how Orlanth did this. A conquest by blowing those standing waves away - especially after they gave up their energy to power Worcha - makes sense. This basically makes Orlanth the founder or at least sponsor of Arstola. Quote And Beren would have been active after the Flood or even well after the four Sons of Vingkot as he is mysteriously not present when they raid Dara Happa. Yes, Vingkotling genealogy say he was active when Vingkot was King as he married Vingkot's daughter but it's equally plausible that Berenethtelli skalds backdated the reign of their illustrious founder to become the compatriot of the Four Sons of Vingkot and that this also happened with Ulanin and Poscriptor. Or it is possible and plausible that your re-dating is unnecessary. It doesn't explain why the sons of Vingkot should have been dead for centuries (DHan pre-Dawn years) when their sisters married. Your supposed fixes don't really fix anything. Quote Telling how it is excessive verbis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jajagappa Posted April 29, 2017 Share Posted April 29, 2017 17 hours ago, Joerg said: How much were the Esrolvuli Vingkotlings, and how much were they Durevings under the absolutist rule of the Grandmothers? That Kodig and successors ruled in Esrolia is clear. It is noted in the Esrolia book that "[Orlanth] built a house north of where most people lived." I.e. they got Storm Hill outside of the main part of Nochet. This seems to be largely a small group of rulers. During the Third War, Rastagar led most of his men (presumably Vingkotling thanes) off to fight 'the enemy' and "most of them were killed. Only a few escaped, and they did not know their way home." While Rastagar got back to Nochet, he "had some new followers, but ... had only a few of the men from their homeland." It's also noted that "No survivors of the Kodigvari dynasty survived" following the Sword and Helm Saga. These bits suggest to me (though obviously not definitive), that there were not a large number of "Vingkotlings" among the Esrolvuli. I don't think they were all Durevings either. The presence of the Six Sisters suggests that Esrolia was a place where multiple tribes had come together (the Durevings being the followers of Orana, for instance). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metcalph Posted April 30, 2017 Share Posted April 30, 2017 On 29/04/2017 at 2:13 AM, Joerg said: Still, let's assume that we can find a single true sequence of God Time events. The reign of Urvairinus is unequivocally post-flood era, pre-Ice Age. There's at least one deed of Urvarinus that dates back to the Golden Age (the raid on the Lord of Seven) and the war against YarGan appears to be Daxdarius with Urvarinus's name inserted. For the sake of keeping things simple, we are talking about the Ram People invasion which occurs at the time frame suggested. On 29/04/2017 at 2:13 AM, Joerg said: That period is clearly part of the Vingkotling Age - Vingkot became King of the humans already during the flood. It's strange how there's no myths about Vingkot becoming King. He's just named King and that's it. It's my belief that Vingkot is another name for Orlanth (cf Wingkoalad in King of Sartar and Vinga) and that his humanity is emphasized to avoid embaressment about the Death of God. On 29/04/2017 at 2:13 AM, Joerg said: Vingkot went away to fight Chaos Man single-handedly, beyond the Realm of mortal men (and ended up in the First Battle of Chaos, in another age, where he received his mortal wound), then returned to his kin, held alive by his divine spark, so he chose to be immolated to be released from his agony. Vingkot is killed in Stormfall, not the First Battle of Chaos which is a Lunar battle against the Carmanians. This poses a problem in that Stormfall is well dated to the end of the Lesser Darkness! My preferred solution is that the Stormfall battle occurs every six hundred years following the Doom Conjunction and that Vingkot was slain at an earlier battle whereas the classic battle that everybody knows occurs much later. On 29/04/2017 at 2:13 AM, Joerg said: After his immolation, the sons of Vingkot vied for succession, and sacked many Dara Happan cities (which isn't limited to the Septopolis in GRoY). That's debatable. Another possibility is that they inflated the places that they sacked. On 29/04/2017 at 2:13 AM, Joerg said: That would have to be in the reigns of Anaxial (no mention of such an event), Lukarius (neither any mention) or Urvairinus (bingo, Elempur). The repeat raid followed by a Dara Happan victory, also check. I disagree. The Ram People that sacked Elempur are archaic charioteers compared to the Sons of Vingkolting who ride horses. In the stories of the Andam Horde (Entekosiad) and the Yolp Mountains (Glorious ReAscent) about the rise of those peaks and the struggles of the Kings of Survargar against the south, there's an evolution among the barbarians. The Erlandings differ from the Ram People in that they worship Orlanth and Vadrus. The Andams have Ordeeds instead of Rams and so on. What we are seeing here are successive waves of barbarian invasions over a thousands of years. The earlier raids by the Ram People, the Andams and the Erlandings do not figure largely in Orlanthi mythology because the stories about those raids are not as memorable as the Sons of Vingkot. Ergo it does not follow that the Sons of Vingkot sacked Elempur. Likewise I do not find your reliance on Glorious ReAscent that such raids did not happen during the reign of Anaxial and Lukarius to be at all convincing. As pointed out before Urvarinus has been attributed to two epic deeds that belong to somebody else (Brightface and Daxdarius). The myth of the Emperors of Dara Happa have been filtered through the unscrupulous hand of Plentonius. Likewise the Good People of Alkoth have a actual myth in which Murharzarm banishes the Heortlings to the south, the (Horse) Nomads to the east and the Carmanians to the west (and the anachronisms are not errors) All we can say is that in the Middle Storm Age the Dara Happans in their Septopoli peiod lost a city of Elempur to the Ram People, probably acting under the leadership of Varnaval. An Iron Ram was involved, possibly as a battering ram to break down the walls of Elempur. The Story of the making of the Army and the revenge exacted upon them has been attributed to Urvarinus. Unless we were to see a myth of about how the Sons of Vingkot brought an Iron Ram to battle in their fight against Dara Happa, we can not attribute the destruction of Elempur to them. Quote Check the Andam Horde story in Entekosiad for this event [of Varnval]. IMO. The location later has the Talastari ram folk of Lokamayadon. All of that fits well enough. No mention of the Iron Ram. The Andams have Ordeeds which have wavy horns rather than the curved horns of the rams. You can see the example of the Ordeeds at the bottom of the map on page 34 of the Entekosiad and they are wavy like those of an antelope. So Varnaval does not tame the Ordeeds but the Rams as is stated in the Book of Heortling Mythology p162. Quote We know hardly anything about the Lastralgortelli, other than that they perished in their second raid. Lastralgor may very well have brought the Iron Ram along. Except that Varnaval is explicitly associated with the Iron Ram and Lastralgor is not. Quote There are no Heortling Star Tribes. All surviving Vingkotling tribes became Heortling tribes. I think the sequence is better Vingkotling Tribe - Star Tribe - Heortling Tribe. Quote The Stravuli were formed from the Jorganostelli, as a Vingkotling tribe, without any son, daughter, grandson or granddaughter of Vingkot leading them. We can discuss whether they had Vingkot type tribal kingship or some other model, but you cannot claim that this tribe was formed only after IFWW. I don't claim the Stravuli was formed after the IFWW. I'm saying they were formed as a Star Tribe in the Great Darkness well after the wars of the sons of Vingkot (who are lesser Darkness). Quote WIth such extended life-spans, don't you think that people got to know their great-great-great-great-great-grandchildren if they survived long enough? Such longevity may smear the term generation in that the firstborn may have already great-grandchildren when the lastborn take their first breaths, but adding up the life spans of methusalahs doesn't define historical dates. This logical fallacy is common among literalist interpreters of the King James Bible, but I thought we would be above such mistakes. That can be easily remedied by people having children less often. The Glorious ReAscent for example has Lukarius dying after the death of his seventh child despite having ruled for over 2000 years.. Gartemirus likewise rules for a thousand years according to the Entekosiad. Having the Orlanthi live two or three centuries in the Middle Storm Age does not seem unreasonable to me. Quote Sure - the idea is weak. But Urvairinus doesn't reclaim the bow in the battle, but further south. The Deleskaring story (not reprinted in the Guide) tells how Deleskar remained behind while Jorganos went north, and didn't return. He might have been killed in or about Elempur. The Deleskaring story does not stipulate that Jorganos went north. He could have gone south to Arrowmound, say, and never returned. Absent a definitive statement about Jorganos' death (and I think it is mythically obscure by intention), I think it safest to say that the only son of Vingkot slain in the raid on Dara Happa was Lastralgor. Quote Which is why we find Berenstead in Berenethtelli lands at the Dawn, Ulaninstead in Orgovaltes territory, etc.? The Vingkotlings appear to have remained at the lands of their founders. That's only two places in the whole of the lands held by the Vingkotlings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metcalph Posted April 30, 2017 Share Posted April 30, 2017 On 29/04/2017 at 7:36 AM, Joerg said: You're spouting strange categories once again. The nine original Vingkotling tribes (1 -vari, 3 -tes, 5 -telli) clearly are created while Vingkot was king. No. And I can prove it. The Berenethtelli ride horses. Yet Gartemirus who is active in the reign of Kestinorus and Manarlavus is surprised to see someone riding a horse.There's no myth of their creation and the connection to Vingkot can easily be invented by flattering skalds in the subsequent centuries.All I will agree to at the beginning is that there were four tribes of the Vingkotlings at Vingkot's death and that subsequent tribal politics created many more (eg the migration of Beren from Nivorah created the Berenethtelli etc). On 29/04/2017 at 7:36 AM, Joerg said: The -vuli Star Tribes are created after his death - we know five (Liorn-, Forosil-, Garan-, Sedenor-, Stra-), plus the Esrolvuli who aren't Vingkotling. The Deleskarings are a strange exception in the naming - it is possible that they didn't have the status of a tribe, but survived anyway. The Star Tribes are created in the Great Darkness after the death of Rastagar. There wasn't any need for their protection after the death of Vingkot as the Vingkotlings were strong enough to take care of themselves. I can't imagine Bibidos Ten-Wife and Kalabos Icefall doing nothing. On 29/04/2017 at 7:36 AM, Joerg said: By the way, not all stories corroborate your idea that the expedition of the sons of Vingkot occurred only after Vingkot's immolation. Heortling Mythology p.120: The expedition is stated as occuring after Vingkot's immolation. The text you cite does not mention the expedition or even Vingkot's immolation (merely that Wakboth killed him). On 29/04/2017 at 7:36 AM, Joerg said: The circumstances of Vingkot's death by Chaos are extremely obscure, as is their timing. If Vingkot fought the Darkmen and the Icemen, what Dara Happan cities would have been left of Dara Happa to be plundered by his sons after his death? The circumstances are not extremely obscure - they are just confused. The story of his fighting the Darkmen and Icemen is not about Vingkot but a distant descendent. It would be much less reliable as a source for Vingkot than a myth about Vingkot himself. On 29/04/2017 at 7:36 AM, Joerg said: I don't see a gradual transformation. We have the sons and daughters of Vingkot create heroic, warlike tribes, the daughters by choice of their husbands and presumably their followers. The daughters being wholly absent as heroes in all the stories of the Vingkotlings that we have. One would have hoped for a Boudicca among Vingkot's heirs but of the four daughters of Vingkot, we do not have a single heroic deed attributed to any of them. Oh, there's Redayle who may not actually be related to Vingkot at all. On 29/04/2017 at 7:36 AM, Joerg said: We can assume that the other three brothers had wives who brought significant kinsfolk into the tribes, too That's a big series of assumptions for which the evidence is thin. Where are all these significant kinsfolk coming from? They don't just magically appear out of nowhere. And I think the Deer Tribe which you suggest was people donning magical deerskins to better survive the horrors of the age rather than a simple marriage of Pralori-relatives. That fits better with the model of the Orlanthi. On 29/04/2017 at 7:36 AM, Joerg said: I can see that you want to have distinct, non-overlapping Ages. I don't see God-Time having these discrete switches in the Ages. I don't "want to have". I am pointing out the periods exist in the sources regardless of your views. On 29/04/2017 at 7:36 AM, Joerg said: Or it is possible and plausible that your re-dating is unnecessary. It doesn't explain why the sons of Vingkot should have been dead for centuries (DHan pre-Dawn years) when their sisters married. Has it ever occurred to you that the so-called daughters of Vingkot might be mere names backlformed by skalds from the Tribal Names to create a spurious connection to Vingkot? "Poscriptor the Cannibal! What's his connection to Vingkot? He doesn't have one! Very well, what's his tribe? Infithtelli! Very well, he married Infirthe the daughter of Vingkot. Next! But Infithtelli doesn't mean the people of Infithe but the People of the Isl... Shut up. Goralf Brown!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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