Sun Dome Temples

[M Helsdon]

Army Lists

Sun Dome Templars

Rurik Runespear
Type	Hero
Magic Factor	4
Missile Factor	2
Melee Factor	2

A Rune Lord of Yelmalio, Rurik was slain by trolls. He was sent back by his god to lead his people in battle and inspire all with the Light of the Son of the Sun.

 

Vanishing on the Giant’s Cradle which sailed down the River of Cradles in 1621, he became one of Argrath’s boon companions, sharing incredible adventures across the world. He is said to have brokered the secret agreement that saw the Sun Dome Templars desert their Lunar allies at the Second Battle of Moonbroth in 1624. Rurik returned to Pavis in 1625 perched on the back of a golden wyrm to participate in the liberation of the city. In 1627 Rurik was instated as the new Count of Vanntar.

 

Sun Dome Templars
Type	Heavy Infantry
Armor	Lacquered leather
Weapons	Sarissa, large round shield
Morale	Regular	4
Patron Deity	Yelmalio
Notes	From Vanntar in Sartar
Magic Factor	5
Missile Factor	1
Melee Factor	5

They fight using a long fifteen foot long pike, in close formation, resting their round shields on a neck strap which permits them to grip their heavy spear in both hands. They fight and drill in Squares of 64 men, and are superbly disciplined to present a forest of pikes to their foes. The Templars have the best armor the cult can provide: a corset of lacquered leather and a crested full helmet.

 

Sun Dome Templars
Type	Heavy Infantry
Armor	Lacquered leather
Weapons	Sarissa, large round shield
Morale	Regular	4
Patron Deity	Yelmalio
Notes	From Vanntar in Sartar
Magic Factor	5
Missile Factor	1
Melee Factor	5

 

Sun Dome Templars
Type	Heavy Infantry
Armor	Bronze
Weapons	Sarissa, large round shield
Morale	Regular	4
Patron Deity	Yelmalio
Notes	From Mo Baustra in Prax
Magic Factor	5
Missile Factor	0
Melee Factor	5

[Mark Mohrfield]

18 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

 

Tribe	Number of Initiates
Agimori tribe	225
Bison tribe	400
Bolo Lizard tribe	158
High Llama tribe	163
Impala tribe	7800
Ostrich tribe	90
Pol-Joni tribe	42
Rhino tribe	90
Sable tribe	5625
Zebra tribe	34

 

 

 

Some of these figures seem to be a bit high assuming that half the population is children and half of the adults are female. Applying these figures to the populations given in the Guide, over 25% and of adult male Impala riders and 30% of adult male Sable riders would be Yelmalions, Or have I missed something?

[Mark Mohrfield]

The Army Lists post gives the Vanntar unit twice. Was one of these meant to be Alda Chur? Why does a pike and shield unit have a missile factor? Are these statistics for the new miniatures rules?

[M Helsdon]

3 hours ago, Mark Mohrfield said:

Some of these figures seem to be a bit high assuming that half the population is children and half of the adults are female. Applying these figures to the populations given in the Guide, over 25% and of adult male Impala riders and 30% of adult male Sable riders would be Yelmalions, Or have I missed something?

I've taken this from David Scott's recent posts on the forum (which I may have misunderstood).

 

3 hours ago, Mark Mohrfield said:

The Army Lists post gives the Vanntar unit twice. Was one of these meant to be Alda Chur? Why does a pike and shield unit have a missile factor? Are these statistics for the new miniatures rules?

Vanntar raises two regiments; Alda-Chur none.

The Vanntar regiments include archers, who act as pseudo-hypaspists, providing some cover to the flanks of the phalanxes. The Sun County regiment instead relies either upon militia spearmen on the flanks or supporting auxiliaries hired from a Praxian tribe.

I need to add this information to my notes. 

[M Helsdon]

On ‎6‎/‎11‎/‎2016 at 4:29 PM, David Scott said:

There are about 14700 Yelmalio worshippers amongst the Praxian tribes. The population of Sun County is only 20,000, given that half are children, the remainder is half men. That gives a maximum of 5000 Yelmalio initiates. The nomads outnumber them about 2:1. The structure of Yelmalio is different amongst the tribes - they have only Light Khans, no priests. So the Yemalio temples are their major worship temples. Yes they are welcome, and yes there are ancient pacts in place that prevent them overrunning the land. Look when the Praxian lords of Sun County ended for when these pacts came into place.

Numbers for the interested:

7800 - Impala tribe

163 - High Llama tribe

5625 - Sable tribe

400 - Bison tribe

(No Morokanth other than PCs:-)

225 - Agimori tribe

90 - Rhino tribe

90 - Ostrich tribe

40 - Unicorn tribe

(No Baboons other than Melo Yellow and PCs)

158 - Bolo Lizard tribe

34 - Zebra tribe

42 - Pol-Joni tribe

(No Basmoli or Newtlings other than PCs:-)

Here's the source of my Yelmalion numbers.

[Mark Mohrfield]

I'm hoping that David will show up and explain the numbers.

[M Helsdon]

39 minutes ago, Mark Mohrfield said:

I'm hoping that David will show up and explain the numbers.

At a guess, it's taking the population numbers in the Guide and taking the percentage given in Cults of Prax, then dividing the result by two, assuming only males are likely initiates:

Impala Riders 120,000 13% = 15,600/2 = 7,800.

No allowance for those too young to be initiates. Perhaps the actual numbers should be halved again?

Edited July 27, 2016 by M Helsdon

[David Scott]

5 hours ago, Mark Mohrfield said:

Some of these figures seem to be a bit high assuming that half the population is children and half of the adults are female. Applying these figures to the populations given in the Guide, over 25% and of adult male Impala riders and 30% of adult male Sable riders would be Yelmalions, Or have I missed something?

Yes this is correct. The numbers are based on the old Cults of Prax table showing % cult membership. Bringing it all up to date, it's 26% of the male Impala tribe and 30% of the Sable tribe are Yelmalio followers. The old figures were half this and applied equally to men and women. There are no women Yelmalion followers except PCs... Yelmalio is an Invader God and well established for good reason in the Wastelands. To put this in perspective, here are all the Praxian cults/societies in the Wastelands ranked by size (only Praxian members).

1	Daka Fal	Over 70k
2	Eiritha	Over 60K
3	Waha	Over 50k
4	Helpwoman	Over 30k
5	Burners
6	Shadow People
7	Sky Gazers	Over 20k
8	Thirstless
9	Orlanth
10	Yelmalio
11	Seven Mothers
12	Storm Bull	Over 10k
13	Hidden Ancestor	Over 8k
14	Great Rhino	Over 7k
15	Humakt	Over 6k
16	Chalana Arroy	Over 3k
17	Foundchild	Over 2k
18	Twin Stars
19	Ernalda
20	Basmol
21	Great Newt	Over 1k
22	Vinga
23	Baba Ulodra	Over 500
24	Aldrya
25	Ostrich Mother
26	Yelorna
27	Monkey King
28	Issaries
29	Pavis	Over 100
30	Babeester Gor
31	Lhankor Mhy

[Mark Mohrfield]

That seems to make sense for the Yelmalions. Some of the other CoP percentages seem odd, though. For example, the Fire/Sky connected Impala had the largest percentage of Orlanth worshipers among the animal nomads (16%) and only 15% Waha worhippers. Have these been revised, or is there some explanation for seemingly strange numbers?

[David Scott]

7 minutes ago, Mark Mohrfield said:

That seems to make sense for the Yelmalions. Some of the other CoP percentages seem odd, though. For example, the Fire/Sky connected Impala had the largest percentage of Orlanth worshipers among the animal nomads (16%) and only 15% Waha worhippers. Have these been revised, or is there some explanation for seemingly strange numbers?

Basically we have a large spreadsheet that contains all of the populations, tribes, cults, rune bias etc. we've been massaging it for a few years now, exploring the data and updating it to fit with our current understanding of Praxian nomads. It's been pretty sable for the last year.

You are correct about the Impala's. There's a bit in Cults of Prax's cult of Waha write up that everyone misses:

Quote

The cult of Waha has survived intact since the Darkness. Occasionally less popular than some religions among the peoples, it never has been extinct in Prax.

In the lead up to the Hero Wars, this is what's happening

The impala's were also hammered at Moonbroth and this shows in the swing towards Orlanth. The actual numbers are for men are

Orlanth	9216
Daka Fal	9000
Waha	7800
Yelmalio	7800
Sky Gazers	7500
Burners	7500
Storm Bull	2880
Humakt	1152
Foundchild	600

Daka Fal is the most popular as there are 9000 women followers as well. There are women followers of Orlanth (Vinga),  Sky Gazers, Burners, Storm Bull and Humakt.

When Jaldon returns with Argrath and becomes Paps Khan once again, will Waha will start his ascendence again amongst the Impala or will the influence of Argrath keep Orlanth in ascendence?

I think all the weirdness in the number is really cool and helps us look at the the tribes in a more detailed way. They are clearly not all the same with the same mechanisms for cult dominance at work.

[g33k]

4 hours ago, David Scott said:

Basically we have a large spreadsheet that contains all of the populations, tribes, cults, rune bias etc. we've been massaging it for a few years now, exploring the data and updating it to fit with our current understanding of Praxian nomads. It's been pretty sable for the last year.

<heh>

(emphasis mine)

[soltakss]

On 7/26/2016 at 9:42 PM, M Helsdon said:

Mo Baustra

The Yelmalio cult was imported into Prax by the rulers of Pavis in the year 875 to help against barbarian raiders. The Templars brought their phalanxes, their cavalry and chariotry to support the beleaguered city.

 

Regiments rode and marched as part of the Invincible Golden Horde in 1100 to plunder and destroy the Dragonewt cities in Dragon Pass. They were entirely destroyed in the Dragonkill. This disaster was traumatic, and the cult purged itself of any vestiges of EWF-inspired Solar Draconicism to return to the unsullied, pure light of Yelmalio.

 

The Great Ballista was constructed to protect the Sun Dome Temple, but when draconic retribution never came it was later moved to the high bluffs above the river and renamed the Harpoon.

 

Eighty years later the city of Pavis fell and Sun Dome County, still reeling from the losses in Dragon Pass, struggled to survive surrounded by hostile Animal Nomads.

 

The theocratic enclave of Sun County spent most of the Third Age in isolation in what they call the Solitude of Testing. Their tradition of horse rearing was lost in the enduring face of nomad hostility and they relied solely upon their infantry. When required, the Templars have been forced on occasion to rely on allied nomad tribesmen of their religion for cavalry support.

 

The capability of Sun Dome Templar Squares to set pikes to withstand a heavy cavalry charge was one of the factors in their survival during the Testing.

 

The Sun Dome County has maintained its autonomy from the Lunar Empire at the price of military alliance. It can muster spearmen militia and a regiment of Templar pike.

 

 

The Guide to Glorantha has Prax being part of Sheng Seleris' Empire in the Third Age.

Now, Pavis was under the control of the trolls and was sealed, so Sheng Seleris had not effect on them, but Mo Baustra was out in the open and able to be attacked/taken over. How much of Sheng Seleris is reflected in the history of the Solitude of Testing? Your summary mentions fights against the nomads, but does this also include the Pentian nomads of the Celestial Empire? Yelmalians would probably have fit in well with the Celestial Empire with the Count being a ray of the Celestial Empire. 

Sheng Seleris conquered the Iron Forts, guarding the border between the Wastelands and Kralorela, in 1356, his army that attacked the Lunar Empire in 1362 included Praxian forces, according to the Gloranthan Wiki, so it makes sense that Prax was under his control between around 1356 to 1460.

The Light List has Kokostang (1352-1358), Belonni (1359-1370) who won battles, Zeoluz (1370-1375) the Shadowlord, then a series of Counts who took power and didn't last long or who were Outlanders (1378-1389), Pygmy Counts (1389-1420), Oloros the Blind (1420-1439) who imprisoned Malia, Skindille Longlaegs (1439-1458) who drove away Daga and Narakoris the Wise (1458-1498) who trained the people to spear and shield again.

So, it looks as though Belonni fought the Celestial Empire, Zeoluz was probably part of it, the series of Counts were fighting for control, the Pygmy Counts were probably an Impala Dynasty, Malia and Daga were driven out and Narakoris probably Selerian rule and brought back Yelmalian ways.

Maybe this has been discussed before and is old news, but I cannot remember if it was.

[M Helsdon]

32 minutes ago, soltakss said:

 

The Guide to Glorantha has Prax being part of Sheng Seleris' Empire in the Third Age.

Now, Pavis was under the control of the trolls and was sealed, so Sheng Seleris had not effect on them, but Mo Baustra was out in the open and able to be attacked/taken over. How much of Sheng Seleris is reflected in the history of the Solitude of Testing? Your summary mentions fights against the nomads, but does this also include the Pentian nomads of the Celestial Empire? Yelmalians would probably have fit in well with the Celestial Empire with the Count being a ray of the Celestial Empire. 

I imagine that Sun County paid tribute, but have no specific information.

[KeithN]

This discussion is making me think that the best solution to finding out the true history of Sun County is some sort of board game simulating it, with the various factions and influences.  Unfortunately, this is the same solution I apply to almost all Gloranthan questions. 

 

[David Scott]

It's taken me a while to get round to this:

 

On 26 July 2016 at 9:42 PM, M Helsdon said:

Mo Baustra

[snip]

Eighty years later the city of Pavis fell and Sun Dome County, still reeling from the losses in Dragon Pass, struggled to survive surrounded by hostile Animal Nomads.

 

This is actually why I think they survived. In the initial settlement of their area in 871 there were several skirmishes with Sable and Impala clans as the land they settled was part of their migration paths to the Paps. The long spears and shield cover of the Sun Domers effectively stopped the charges and hail of arrows from the mounted Praxians. Likewise the skirmishing tactics of the Praxians stopped the advance of the Sun Dome infantry. Neither side did much damage to the other. Within ten years the Praxians and Sun Domers had settled into the usual pattern for the region and were trading food and weapons to each other.

Once the temple was built, some Sable and Impala riders realised that the Sun Domers god was their own great spirit, Sun Daughter, with a new name - Yelmalio. Praxians from the Sky Gazers cult began to learn magics and new archery skills from the invaders, and so the Yelmalio cult took hold amongst the tribes. The nomadic ways of the Praxians were the antithesis of the civilized Sun Domers. But the settlers could not deny their connection. This strange spread of their cult protected the Sun Domers from the wrath of the tribes.

On 26 July 2016 at 9:42 PM, M Helsdon said:

 

Their tradition of horse rearing was lost in the enduring face of nomad hostility and they relied solely upon their infantry.

 

I think there was more to it than simply nomad hostility. They could have easily adopted sables instead of horses like their nomad counterparts. I think they were deliberately trying to set themselves apart.

On 26 July 2016 at 9:42 PM, M Helsdon said:

Scouts and light troops are also recruited from the Basmoli Berserkers, the lion people.

Currently in the Wastelands population stats, there are no Basmoli followers of Yelmalio (except as usual PCs). All adults follow Basmol (& Basmola) with secondary cults of Foundchild & Helpwoman and tertiary societies of Sky Gazers, Burners, Thirstless, Shadow People and seven mothers. It should be noted that the tertiary societies number only about 30 of the 1250 adult basmoli in total.

On 26 July 2016 at 9:42 PM, M Helsdon said:

Claws of the Leaping Sun

As usual I'm interested in your references for this.

As a side note, I'm not using much of the Tales 14 Basmoli article. The Basmoli are Hsunchen and as such they are a pure spirit based group. I think any crossover into other magics robs them of their shape changing links to their great spirit. Their 2500 translates into 5 clans. They are much less civilised than the praxians in their use of materials and perhaps the Wastelands only truly primitive group.

On 26 July 2016 at 9:44 PM, M Helsdon said:

The cult of Yelorna in the Third Age is relatively small, with the largest number comprising the Unicorn tribes of Prax and Ralios.

Borderlands says:

Quote

The Cult in Pavis

In 1610, the temple of Yelorna in Pavis had about 100 members: a high priestess, a Star Maiden commanding the Shield Maidens, two Star Ladies (commanding respectively the Unicorn Riders and the Wanderers), about six Shield Maidens, 15 Unicorn Riders (mostly from the Unicorn tribe), 25 Wanderers, and 50 lay members.

by 1621 most of the Praxian Yelornans were back in the Wastelands. The ranks of those remaining were swelled by new Lunar recruits, replacing those and increasing the cult numbers to around 120. The Lunar link is that Hwarin Dalthippa, had a war unicorn which she rode part of the way on her Daughter’s Road Campaign.

The cult description says:

Quote

One of the three deputies commands the Shield Maidens and is temple Chief of Staff. The second commands the Unicorn Riders and co-ordinates temple logistics. The third commands adventurers and wanderers among the cult, and is responsible for other external affairs.

The wanderers post is vacant in the Rubble temple, but is actually filled by a star shaman amongst the 300 praxian Yelornans. Both groups keep their distance. Praxian Yelornans have more in common with Praxian Yelmalions, than their respective "civilised" groups. Both originated as splinters fro the Sky Gazers society.

So there are 300 Praxian Yelornans and 120 Rubble Yelornans.

 

 

 

[M Helsdon]

6 hours ago, David Scott said:

This is actually why I think they survived. In the initial settlement of their area in 871 there were several skirmishes with Sable and Impala clans as the land they settled was part of their migration paths to the Paps. The long spears and shield cover of the Sun Domers effectively stopped the charges and hail of arrows from the mounted Praxians. Likewise the skirmishing tactics of the Praxians stopped the advance of the Sun Dome infantry. Neither side did much damage to the other. Within ten years the Praxians and Sun Domers had settled into the usual pattern for the region and were trading food and weapons to each other.

From the material in Sun County, it is apparent that the Sun Domers lost their phalanx skills some time during the Testing, but regained them in 1458-1498 under the rule of Narokoris the Wise.

6 hours ago, David Scott said:

Once the temple was built, some Sable and Impala riders realised that the Sun Domers god was their own great spirit, Sun Daughter, with a new name - Yelmalio. Praxians from the Sky Gazers cult began to learn magics and new archery skills from the invaders, and so the Yelmalio cult took hold amongst the tribes. The nomadic ways of the Praxians were the antithesis of the civilized Sun Domers. But the settlers could not deny their connection. This strange spread of their cult protected the Sun Domers from the wrath of the tribes.

I suspect the first Temple was built before the fall of Pavis? The rapprochement between the Sun Domers and the Nomads may have happened when the first temple was built, but the destruction of Pavis may have hastened the process: with the fall of the city the reason for outright and constant war between the Yelmalions and Nomads would have gone.

6 hours ago, David Scott said:

I think there was more to it than simply nomad hostility. They could have easily adopted sables instead of horses like their nomad counterparts. I think they were deliberately trying to set themselves apart.

The Yelmalion attachment to horses, and the pride common to many Solar cults might have dissuaded them from adopting any lesser mount.

6 hours ago, David Scott said:

Currently in the Wastelands population stats, there are no Basmoli followers of Yelmalio (except as usual PCs). All adults follow Basmol (& Basmola) with secondary cults of Foundchild & Helpwoman and tertiary societies of Sky Gazers, Burners, Thirstless, Shadow People and seven mothers. It should be noted that the tertiary societies number only about 30 of the 1250 adult basmoli in total.

I assumed the Basmoli acting as Yelmalion auxiliaries were not members of the cult, but following the Hero spirit cult of Leaping Sun as detailed in ToTRM.

Certainly, bachelor Basmoli attaching themselves as mercenaries seems fitting, as well as drawing the cultural differences between themselves the Yelmalions: the Yelmalions need light infantry trackers and scouts. There's an interesting contrast between the patriarchal theocratic and somewhat sexually uptight Sun Domers, and a Basmoli batchelor group.

Whilst it is apparent that much of the ToTRM cult description is no longer entirely canonical, it would be a shame to lose the colour of Basmoli auxiliaries.

When I wrote that section, I had in mind an Osprey-like illustration: A Sun Dome Square drawn up, the command group and standard-bearer  in discussion with a senior Basmoli scout and a dismounted Yelornan unicorn rider; off to one side two Basmoli crouch, one braiding another's hair; with mounted unicorn riders in the background...

6 hours ago, David Scott said:

So there are 300 Praxian Yelornans and 120 Rubble Yelornans.

I've been using your tribal numbers, and the reference to a group of Yelorans in Ralios mentioned in the Guide.

Edited August 4, 2016 by M Helsdon

[M Helsdon]

Searching for something else, I came across this snippet from Mr. Stafford, regarding griffins:

http://glorantha.temppeli.org/digest/gd8/2001.01/1793.html

It may no longer be canon, but it seems very possible that the reason worshippers of Yelm the Rider no longer ride griffins is that Sheng Seleris exterminated all of the griffins in Peloria. His intent might have been to weaken Galgarenge as an eater of horses, but it also removed the possibility of massed aerial cavalry.

Edited August 31, 2016 by M Helsdon

[Jon Hunter]

1 hour ago, M Helsdon said:

Searching for something else, I came across this snippet from Mr. Stafford, regarding griffins:

http://glorantha.temppeli.org/digest/gd8/2001.01/1793.html

It may no longer be canon, but it seems very possible that the reason worshippers of Yelm the Rider no longer ride griffins is that Sheng Seleris exterminated all of the griffins in Peloria. His intent might have been to weaken Galgarenge as an eater of horses, but it also removed the possibility of massed aerial cavalry.

Seeing as Griffin Mountain is in Peloria and shengs  sphere of influence he didn't do a good job.

[M Helsdon]

2 hours ago, Jon Hunter said:

Seeing as Griffin Mountain is in Peloria and shengs  sphere of influence he didn't do a good job.

His realm didn't extend far into Balazar or the Elder Wilds - poor grazing. The griffins there are a small relict population.

[Jon Hunter]

26 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

His realm didn't extend far into Balazar or the Elder Wilds - poor grazing. The griffins there are a small relict population.

Page 142 of the guide, its on the border, so debatable. They have also had a few hundred years to repopulate also.

Make sense that the horselord Sheng depopulates Griffins, but the top of a mountain is a good place to go to survive.

[M Helsdon]

2 minutes ago, Jon Hunter said:

Page 142 of the guide, its on the border, so debatable. They have also had a few hundred years to repopulate also.

Checking using the Argan Argar Atlas, Griffin Mountain is well outside the border.

4 minutes ago, Jon Hunter said:

Make sense that the horselord Sheng depopulates Griffins, but the top of a mountain is a good place to go to survive.

True, but the population isn't large. Balazar and the Elder Wilds host numerous herd beasts, but not as many as there would have been in lowland Peloria. Griffins are literally apex predators, so their numbers are going to be relatively small in such a poor region.

In the treatise on Gloranthan warfare I'm putting together (160+ pages now...) the entry for Griffins reads:

Griffins: in ancient times the flying mounts of the worshippers of Yelm but are now rarely encountered as riding creatures. Sheng Seleris exterminated almost all of the griffins in Peloria.

The favorite mode of attack of griffins is a swoop down from above.

[metcalph]

1 hour ago, M Helsdon said:

His realm didn't extend far into Balazar or the Elder Wilds - poor grazing. The griffins there are a small relict population.

The Opili Tribe settles in Garsting but fought at the battle of Quintus Vale (on the borders of Tarsh).  There's only two routes they could have gone and one of them has been blocked of by Jannisor over a century before.  

And if Sheng can't send a horde because of poor grazing then he would send one of his demigods to see what secrets the land was hiding.

[M Helsdon]

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

The Opili Tribe settles in Garsting but fought at the battle of Quintus Vale (on the borders of Tarsh).  There's only two routes they could have gone and one of them has been blocked of by Jannisor over a century before.  

And if Sheng can't send a horde because of poor grazing then he would send one of his demigods to see what secrets the land was hiding.

The map in the Guide and Atlas excludes most of the Elder Wilds and Balazar from Sheng Seleris' empire (and there are still griffins there, but little to no mention of them in lowland Peloria). Given that there were far richer pickings elsewhere, there seems little reason to do more than briefly scout those regions, with a fair risk the scouts wouldn't come back. Sending a demigod into the wilderness doesn't seem strategically or logistically sensible.

In fact for the Elder Wilds there's the Uncommon Event: Griffins hunting horses; horsemen beware!

This threat is not mentioned elsewhere, but explains why Sheng attempted to exterminate them.

Edited August 31, 2016 by M Helsdon

[Jon Hunter]

1 hour ago, M Helsdon said:

The map in the Guide and Atlas excludes most of the Elder Wilds and Balazar from Sheng Seleris' empire (and there are still griffins there, but little to no mention of them in lowland Peloria). Given that there were far richer pickings elsewhere, there seems little reason to do more than briefly scout those regions, with a fair risk the scouts wouldn't come back. Sending a demigod into the wilderness doesn't seem strategically or logistically sensible.

In fact for the Elder Wilds there's the Uncommon Event: Griffins hunting horses; horsemen beware!

This threat is not mentioned elsewhere, but explains why Sheng attempted to exterminate them.

Its a nice find, one of the things i'm not happy about of the BtB site is the history of Griffin Mountain post, when its redone this titbitwill probably be included in the history.

[metcalph]

10 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

The map in the Guide and Atlas excludes most of the Elder Wilds and Balazar from Sheng Seleris' empire (and there are still griffins there, but little to no mention of them in lowland Peloria). Given that there were far richer pickings elsewhere, there seems little reason to do more than briefly scout those regions, with a fair risk the scouts wouldn't come back. Sending a demigod into the wilderness doesn't seem strategically or logistically sensible.

I doubt that Sheng shares your views on what is strategically or logistically sensible.  He conquered the Wastelands which are far more barren than the Elder Wilds.  What Sheng wants is not some penny-pinching accountant telling him what would be a wise use of his resources - he has a mountain of accountant skulls for that - but secrets that he could use against the Kralori.  Remote wastelands would be scouted because they are remote and likely to hold secrets.

The map that you refer to is dated 1450 ST, some 75 years after the Opili Tribe were badly mangled at the Battle of Quintus Vale.  The then Opili Khan may have simply decided that occupying the Citadels and other places then was not worthy of his time.

 

10 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

In fact for the Elder Wilds there's the Uncommon Event: Griffins hunting horses; horsemen beware!

This threat is not mentioned elsewhere, but explains why Sheng attempted to exterminate them.

Sheng had Lionbirds and used them to devour the Red Emperor. according to Tales #8 (a post-canonical gregly article).  I'm hence skeptical that he would be exterminating Griffins